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I just want to thank whomever (whoever? gah I always mess that one up) mentioned Peter Kreeft's The Philosophy of Tolkien. I am only on the third page or so of the first chapter, after reading the introduction, and love it. And, even though I have basically no background in philosophy or Tolkien, I feel like I am actually understanding what I'm reading (albeit reading slowly!).

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http://www.societyforclassicallearning.org/images/conf2009/andrew_kern_implementing_liberal_arts.mp3

 

If you are looking for inspiration, especially if you are not classically educated, this is a good talk to listen to. You may want to fast forward past the first few minutes (which have technical issues) and the next few minutes (which have techies talking). But past that is really good! :D

 

 

I listened to this last night and something stood out to me: it seems he has different take on the trivium. What I mean is that the modern classical movement, which is largely inspired by Dorothy Sayers speech, "The Lost Tools of Learning", divides the trivium by age/developmental stages. Kern didn't in this talk. In fact, he says you can take each grade level, and uses first grade as an example and says: "What does grammar look like in first grade? What does logic look like in first grade? What does rhetoric look like in first grade?" And then he continues with quadrivium.

 

How do you all understand the trivium?

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I listened to this last night and something stood out to me: it seems he has different take on the trivium. What I mean is that the modern classical movement, which is largely inspired by Dorothy Sayers speech, "The Lost Tools of Learning", divides the trivium by age/developmental stages. Kern didn't in this talk. In fact, he says you can take each grade level, and uses first grade as an example and says: "What does grammar look like in first grade? What does logic look like in first grade? What does rhetoric look like in first grade?" And then he continues with quadrivium.

 

I noticed this as well and wondered about the same thing. I haven't really delved into the trivium much... I planned on looking into it. I hope someone will have something to offer about the difference.

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I listened to this last night and something stood out to me: it seems he has different take on the trivium. What I mean is that the modern classical movement, which is largely inspired by Dorothy Sayers speech, "The Lost Tools of Learning", divides the trivium by age/developmental stages. Kern didn't in this talk. In fact, he says you can take each grade level, and uses first grade as an example and says: "What does grammar look like in first grade? What does logic look like in first grade? What does rhetoric look like in first grade?" And then he continues with quadrivium.

 

How do you all understand the trivium?

 

I noticed this myself-I honestly don't know much of the history on it all, but having listened to his other talks, and more from the Society for Classical Learning - what I've learned is that the trivium is the first three/verbal grammar, logic, dialectic, and that the quad is 'rational' arts.

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I just want to thank whomever (whoever? gah I always mess that one up) mentioned Peter Kreeft's The Philosophy of Tolkien. I am only on the third page or so of the first chapter, after reading the introduction, and love it. And, even though I have basically no background in philosophy or Tolkien, I feel like I am actually understanding what I'm reading (albeit reading slowly!).

 

Isn't it great? I mentioned it, but 8 was reading it at the same time. :001_smile:

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I listened to this last night and something stood out to me: it seems he has different take on the trivium. What I mean is that the modern classical movement, which is largely inspired by Dorothy Sayers speech, "The Lost Tools of Learning", divides the trivium by age/developmental stages. Kern didn't in this talk. In fact, he says you can take each grade level, and uses first grade as an example and says: "What does grammar look like in first grade? What does logic look like in first grade? What does rhetoric look like in first grade?" And then he continues with quadrivium.

 

How do you all understand the trivium?

 

There is a lovely discussion where Andrew Kern discusses his view of the trivium/quadrivium here (post #31 on):

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257193&page=4

 

Incidentally, this is the same link that KFamily posted on #3 of this thread.

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I don't think I could use the "grade" x "look like" concept quite yet. I'm still getting my head undewyied. I think Lady Dusk sent that thought over here...someone did..during a discussion somewhere..I think it was about Caldecott's book....

 

So Yes, that's a word, it's a verb or an adjective I think....

 

I can pick up books. I can read. I can think. I can attend with an open mind.

 

I can teach with love.

 

I guess that is what matters.

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I listened to this last night and something stood out to me: it seems he has different take on the trivium. What I mean is that the modern classical movement, which is largely inspired by Dorothy Sayers speech, "The Lost Tools of Learning", divides the trivium by age/developmental stages. Kern didn't in this talk. In fact, he says you can take each grade level, and uses first grade as an example and says: "What does grammar look like in first grade? What does logic look like in first grade? What does rhetoric look like in first grade?" And then he continues with quadrivium.

 

How do you all understand the trivium?

 

I first learned that Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric were not ages & stages but disciplines from the book Wisdom & Eloquence (which might go overboard in their arguments against the ages & stages). I was confused as all get out, then I read Christopher Perrin's Introduction to Classical Education (free pdf) where he basically says it can be both. It's a pretty short read, and one of my favorites on Classical Education - good for passing to interested parties.

 

Then, Andrew Kern turned my mental world upside down with this post on the old Quiddity blog: Incarnational Teaching in Kindergarten (Quiddity was CiRCE's blog before it was moved onto the main site) Here's a quote to wet your whistle:

This is why I often argue that, while the stages of a subject and of a child’s development are powerful concepts, the real glory of the trivium as three stages is in the individual lesson: grammar – present types; logic – compare types; rhetoric – express and apply the idea.

One of the takeaways I've gotten from Leigh Bortins is that how, even as adults, this is how we learn and apply things too!

 

So, I understand the Trivium to be disciplines, a way to consider thought processes in children, and the steps of any lesson/set of lessons.

 

Hope that helps!

Edited by ladydusk
Corrected "Whet your whistle" to "wet your whistle"

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I don't think I could use the "grade" x "look like" concept quite yet. I'm still getting my head undewyied. I think Lady Dusk sent that thought over here...someone did..during a discussion somewhere..I think it was about Caldecott's book....

 

So Yes, that's a word, it's a verb or an adjective I think....

 

I can pick up books. I can read. I can think. I can attend with an open mind.

 

I can teach with love.

 

I guess that is what matters.

 

Yup ... it was probably Norms & Nobility, but Hicks "De-Deweyfied" me ... and I never even finished the book!

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I first learned that Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric were not ages & stages but disciplines from the book Wisdom & Eloquence (which might go overboard in their arguments against the ages & stages). I was confused as all get out, then I read Christopher Perrin's Introduction to Classical Education (free pdf) where he basically says it can be both. It's a pretty short read, and one of my favorites on Classical Education - good for passing to interested parties.

 

Then, Andrew Kern turned my mental world upside down with this post on the old Quiddity blog: Incarnational Teaching in Kindergarten (Quiddity was CiRCE's blog before it was moved onto the main site) Here's a quote to whet your whistle:

 

 

One of the takeaways I've gotten from Leigh Bortins is that how, even as adults, this is how we learn and apply things too!

 

So, I understand the Trivium to be disciplines, a way to consider thought processes in children, and the steps of any lesson/set of lessons.

 

Hope that helps!

 

That helps me a lot! Thanks! I'm going to check out those links. Right now, I have so many concepts and ideas floating around in my head. Ach!

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I think some things are meant to be...

I read the linked selection from Screwtape Letters that 8FilltheHeart posted with great interest. I didn't own that particular CS Lewis book and found that excerpt so fascinating! Dh & I went to a thrift store and along with a few other good finds picked up a nice hardback copy of The Screwtape Letters!

Thanks to everyone for links, etc!

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I first learned that Grammar, Logic, and Rhetoric were not ages & stages but disciplines from the book Wisdom & Eloquence (which might go overboard in their arguments against the ages & stages). I was confused as all get out, then I read Christopher Perrin's Introduction to Classical Education (free pdf) where he basically says it can be both. It's a pretty short read, and one of my favorites on Classical Education - good for passing to interested parties.

 

Then, Andrew Kern turned my mental world upside down with this post on the old Quiddity blog: Incarnational Teaching in Kindergarten (Quiddity was CiRCE's blog before it was moved onto the main site) Here's a quote to wet your whistle:

One of the takeaways I've gotten from Leigh Bortins is that how, even as adults, this is how we learn and apply things too!

 

So, I understand the Trivium to be disciplines, a way to consider thought processes in children, and the steps of any lesson/set of lessons.

 

Hope that helps!

 

Thank you! This is exactly what I needed.

 

 

Now onto understanding what a human faculty is . . . .

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http://circeinstitute.com/2011/05/the-mother-of-learning/

 

Try this one for memory as a God given faculty.

 

Faculties which are cultivated become virtues.

 

Be very attentive when you read that word and watch for context, it means more than it's saying: "cultivated".

 

Also, look at number three in this one:

 

http://quidditycirce.wordpress.com/what-is-christian-classical-education/

 

Virtue as the end of education, rather than mere application, thus a concerted and rigorous effort to cultivate every human faculty in every student. In particular, the faculties of sensory perception, attentiveness, intellectual apprehension, and concrete re-presentation are cultivated in all the arts and sciences.

Edited by one*mom

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Thank you! This is exactly what I needed.

 

 

Now onto understanding what a human faculty is . . . .

 

Keep it nice and simple. A human faculty is an ability that we have as humans: language, arithmetic, running, eating, etc. Some are uniquely human; others are shared with other creatures. But if it is a natural human faculty it is given to us by God to glorify Him and so we can know Him, therefore it is good and should be cultivated.

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Keep it nice and simple. A human faculty is an ability that we have as humans: language, arithmetic, running, eating, etc. Some are uniquely human; others are shared with other creatures. But if it is a natural human faculty it is given to us by God to glorify Him and so we can know Him, therefore it is good and should be cultivated.

 

Thank you. I will think more about this.

 

You should check out our "social group" if you get a chance:

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?groupid=171

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This thread is a monster! Way to ruin my Sat! Just when I thought I had most of next year figured out........

 

I haven't read every post yet, but I have a few thoughts.

 

So, has a list of books/audios been made, or does anyone have it in the works?

 

A couple of things I've been thinking as I read...all related to issues I've been facing recently......

 

We began our homeschool journey with most of the Circe approaches described here and somehow ended up with a lot of curriculum that tries to replicate what should be happening in any family that has set our to explore ideas as a way of education. I seem to have sacrificed that exploration and development (somewhat) in favor of a way to 'get it done'.

 

Then I've been thinking about scheduling lately and am frustrated even with the idea of a schedule. That's not to say we are unschoolers, but our schedules have been determined by the needs of the day (some of these are intellectual needs) and the ideas we've been exploring. Recently I read Managers of their Homes in a desperate attempt to add more structure into our days. I was appalled at some of the suggestions. 15 minutes a day for Bible study? Really? At 15 minutes I'm just beginning to get beyond the actual reading of the words. If 15 minutes is all I can allow, it's useless to me b/c there is no time for contemplation, linking to other ideas, extending those ideas into my own life etc. So, then the time factor seems to be huge when thinking about educating more like many in this thread describe. I'm in agreement with many of the ideas, but gasping for air when I begin to think about the time factor coupled with the thought of facing high school next year.

 

So, with the social group started is this conversation shifting over to those posts instead of here? I have no experience with social groups.

 

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The group has lists and topics from this thread, it was getting too big and things and ideas were getting lost.

 

Just click on the link for community, then on social groups, you'll see it there.

 

You have to be logged in to read it, if you are not logged in, the community function doesn't work.

 

If you sketch out how many kiddos/what subjects you want to cover, what hours, people would gladly jump in and help you out on how to organize things.

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Yeah you read all these books with a sample schedule - for one child. Which usually makes me feel bad because it looks so easy and simple on the paper, but so complex IRL. I have MOTH too, and I think the author was trying to say that even 15 minutes could accomplish something - not that you / each person / most readers should have 15 min. of Bible a day. I'm going to try more of a time-boxing approach since I don't watch the clock at all, but I might post on the social group since one*mom invited it ... :P

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So, with the social group started is this conversation shifting over to those posts instead of here? I have no experience with social groups.

 

 

I was re-reading to see what kind of incoherent nonsense I posted in my scheduling delirium, and I found this. I meant WTM social groups, not real life social groups -- lots of experience there---lest anyone should think that homeschool stereotypes ring true! :rolleyes:

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I was re-reading to see what kind of incoherent nonsense I posted in my scheduling delirium, and I found this. I meant WTM social groups, not real life social groups -- lots of experience there---lest anyone should think that homeschool stereotypes ring true! :rolleyes:

 

:lol::lol::lol:

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Now I know what I'll be listening to on our way down to Disneyland this time, and I believe this will be a life changer trip, again!

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Now I know what I'll be listening to on our way down to Disneyland this time, and I believe this will be a life changer trip, again!

 

LOL - yeah I was listening to the podcasts in the evening at the computer. I think it would be better to load them on the MP3 player and listen while cleaning the kitchen... There are a few I'll have to sit down and take notes though. I'm wishing for my husband's business to take off so I can do the apprentice program! I'd love to discuss ideas with other interested adults.

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Me! Peter Kreeft has helped me understand almost everything better. I also heartily second your recommendation to go back to authors/works that resonated with you in the past while wading through this hurricane of a thread. I think many of the ideas we are discussing here are old ideas for most of us, ideas we began to forget in our fear and anxiety. Re-encountering these ideas in the place we first fell in love with them is the best way to find peace in our minds and hearts.

 

I must say, that the passage you quoted from The Last Battle is my favorite from the whole series. That whole chapter really. And literature truly works the way Tolkien describes. My father read the Chronicles of Narnia aloud to me when I was seven, having the kind of discussions with me as we read together that we are discussing in this thread. I grew to love the books and re-read them again and again over the years until the truths found in their "mythology" were deeply integrated into my mind and my heart. When I sat in my first philosophy class in high school, Plato was like an old friend. I had already had this conversation in another time and place.

 

This happened again and again in my life. The good literature my parents introduced to me, the discussions we had around the dinner table, the example they set in truly striving to lead an integrated life where they sought the truth and lived it.... it worked. My parents opened my eyes and heart to the truth through their example and the books and people (saints, authors, characters) they introduced to me. They made mistakes, of course, but the core I needed to start growing into the person I was created to be was given to me. I feel deeply blessed with my education and feel they prepared to tackle the most frightening, exciting task I've ever face - giving the same to my children.

 

I'm rambling a bit, but I wanted to share from the perspective of someone who recieved the kind of education and formation being described in this thread. It is possible, and it is worth all the blood, sweat, and tears that I know my parents put into it.

 

 

Wow. This really gives me hope that my kids will end up where they need to be. I so, so wish that this had been my experience!

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Here's the link to classical-homeschooling where the student books are listed-funnily enough, I printed out those lists waaay back in my first months of homeschooling, and then ignored them. :glare:

 

 

Thanks for posting this. It's a great resource. I was starting to despair in reading this thread since we've used SL since pre-k, but when I read through the 4-6 grade lists, we've read more than half of those books, many directly from SL, and many others as audiobooks or summer reading in our free time. So, I guess all is not lost. I would like to increase the level of discussion we have about what we are reading and I plan to listen to all the great links in this thread.

 

ETA: I didn't realize how old this thread was. It was linked to a more recent one and I didn't catch that this conversation was over.

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Andrew's words haunt me literally. At the most unexpected times, something he says suddenly jump into the present moment and I "check" myself against what I heard him say.

 

Some of the toughest ones for me to grapple with are these:

 

"Why are you doing this?" (Crosses my mind about 50 times a day, try answering that one..good luck..)

 

"What does your curriculum say about you as a teacher?"

 

(Trust me, that one can hurt introspectively, but my bookshelves have been dramatically affected by that statement..)

 

I listen to Anaylitical Learning at least once a week I swear, get something new out of it every time I listen as well. Just when I think I have it memorized, I hear something else, it's a crazy amazing talk.....

 

What is Analytical Learning?

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It will take me a while to read through this entire thread.

 

I'll just add my .02 worth here.

 

I've been blessed to attend the annual CiRCE Conference for the past three summers--in Louisville, in Baltimore, and this summer in Houston.

 

Each time I attend I come away both encouraged and challenged to the core.

 

I have much to learn about classical education, even though that's how we attempted to homeschool our children. 

What I have appreciated the most about CiRCE Institute is the willingness of Andrew Kern (as well as the other speakers of the conference) to challenge deep-seated beliefs about education in general. The challenge in Boston was about assessment:  why do we grade student? how did that practice originate? what constitutes assessment? how would the Lord have us assess our students?

 

So, I may not be adding much yet, other than to say that through the CiRCE Institute I have learned so much. My advice would be to stick with it:  listen to the various talks, ponder and meditate, and the practical implementation will become clearer.  

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I've been watching the videos that Andrew Kern made with Matt Bianco: "Restful Teaching: Be Anxious For Nothing," which are available on Vimeo for $10 (for all five videos).  I find a lot of golden nuggets nestled in these talks, but you do have to be patient.  And I plan to re-listen to them.  God willing we are attending an Orthodox Homeschool Conference next month in PA where is he will speaking.  I would like to prepare a few specific questions in case I get a chance to ask him. Anyone have any good questions you want me to ask?

 

The obvious is too broad: How do you apply Restful Teaching and Learning on an everyday basis, practically speaking?  But I think that Mr. Kern (and Mr. Pudewa too) are inspiring us to have the big picture in the forefront of our mind, and we are the ones who need to figure out how to best meet our big picture goal with our children on an everyday basis.  

 

Maybe it looks like this:

more read aloud (this is restful for me and my children)

more discussion (also restful for us and often done in the car)

more discovery together (certain areas great....but I'm not so well-rounded!)

Mom learns alongside children. (we do this anyways, honestly I feel like I'm giving all I have.  Do I need to give more?)

 

I am trying to resist the temptation to feel completely inadequate about my teaching and fearful about how my own sins affect my children and their virtues or lack thereof.  I also feel that we Moms need time alone. I treasure alone time!

 

Last thought: Time doesn't seem to be on our side nowadays.  I feel like Classical Education requires time.  Open schedules.  No rushing around. No distractions!  I think about the olden days.  Horse and carriage.  There was no such thing as arriving 10 minutes late.  Who could be so precise?  I try really hard not to overload our schedule, but we have friends and a very full life.  Maybe if we could wake up before 8:30AM, we'd feel like we had more time?  LOL  And also, I know that multi-tasking is not all that it's cracked up to be! Some days my head is spinning!

 

Thank you, my first time posting on this forum!

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I would love to hear an update from you ladies five years later!!  I discovered CiRCE two years ago and like yourselves, I've been inspired to rethink our homeschooling.  I'm doing the CiRCE Apprenticeship this fall.

 

I love great literature and I love history.  So I feel like maybe the solution is....both?  Read great literature.  Also read some good historic fiction - but when it comes to history learn about the art, music, science, culture, religion, geography...etc.? 

 

I met Andrew at a conference.  He gave me great advice.  Not to teach by subject.  To learn the whole first, not fragmented.  

 

That said, I am very history-centric!  So please share with me, after these five years....what are your thoughts?  We just finished a year of learning from Pentecost to the age of the Vikings.  We overlapped a lot with other disciplines.  Tonight we're finishing For the Temple by GA Henty.  We love it.  I consider it a win-win because it's history, it's character-building, and it's rich language.  

 

Thanks ladies, I hope you enjoy going back in time and seeing where you were five years ago.  And I hope you don't mind sharing some lessons learned.  I really appreciate your ideas exchanged here!

 

Alex

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I would love to hear an update from you ladies five years later!!

I have continued to focus on great literature and designing studies built around our lit choices. Those courses have been some of the most wonderful in all my yrs of homeschooling. One example, Dd and I did an indepth study of cultural influences found in fairy tales. It was fabulous.

 

Next yr, my rising 6th grader and I are doing a study built around The Secret Garden.

 

Our homeschool just keeps getting better. :)

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Lol! I didn't even realize how old this thread was! I was reading and liking every post. Thank you so much for bumping!

I'm on the biggest CiRCE kick right now. Can't wait to spend my time going through this thread...

 

Sent from my U9200 using Tapatalk

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I'm glad to hear from some of you!  The thread caused me a great deal of reflection on whether a history-centric approach to learning is ideal.

 

I've come to the conclusion - for now - that my family will continue to use history as a spine for art, literature, music, geography, theology, ideas, inventions, biographies, etc.  

 

However, we will do so with caution. By that I mean, we WILL study literature outside of the historic time period that we're in.  Second, we'll focus on Western Civilization, with less emphasis on Far East / Asia and Africa.  I love other cultures and countries - personally I'm very multicultural - but I'm looking for continuity and connecting the dots.  If my children can learn how to learn well....then when they're older they can easily learn more about the rest of the world, with depth. (plus they'll get some of that history when we read about Gandhi, and other famous people)

 

I believe that literature and history are both very important.  So we may enjoy Treasure Island, while we're studying the ancient world.  But we also will enjoy GA Henty's The Destruction of the Temple, while we are studying the Early Church.  We'll study Vivaldi's Four Seasons at anytime.  What I've learned from this thread and other research, is that we will be cautious not to overdo the history approach - that it won't drive everything we study.  But so far it's working well for us.

 

I'm still learning a lot and I value the breadth of experience of those on this forum.  

 

Regarding CiRCE - it's been a life changer for me.  CiRCE podcasts and articles support a wonderful approach to Christian classical education - not just for us as teachers, but for us as learners.  I'm doing the apprenticeship this year - it's sort of a big deal, I feel like I'm going back to school.  And yes, it will enrich our homeschooling and help me grow as a teacher (I teach at a co-op), but I'm excited to grow as a person as well.

 

Thanks for "listening"!

 

Alex Gonzalez

 

 

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I read through this thread each year and come away with something new every time. Last spring, I did the Vimeo course mentioned above and what I have changed is to take each lesson as a chance to train myself and children to perceive truth so that we can learn to recognize capital T Truth. Over the past year, we have begun our lessons with a prayer that God would enable us to perceive His truth. I will caution and say that has proved to be a "dangerous" prayer so far as holding on to all of my preconceived notions and remaining comfortable where I'm at. I'm grateful for Circe and the growth my family has experienced because of it.

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I just wanted to pop in and let everyone know we started a series of Scholé discussions (Shabby Scholé Weekly Soirée) this past spring over on the High School boards if anyone is interested. We usually have weekly topics, however we are currently on a break for a few weeks, (it's a hectic time of year!) but will be back soon. In the meantime here are the previous discussions. Feel free to add to them! You don't have to have a high schooler to participate! And if you have topic suggestions please feel free to PM me or Woodland Mist Academy- we love suggestions and others willing to lead threads!

 

Awe and Wonder

Stress

Living Books: Science

Rest

High School Priorities

Nature Study

What is Shabby Scholé/Habits

Edited by texasmom33
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8FillTheHeart,

 

I love reading your posts and was very intrigued when, way up thread, you mentioned an Anne of Green Gables study.  Unfortunately, most of the links, including that one, don't seem to be functioning any more.  Would you mind reposting the Anne list?  Or a current one?  I like the idea of lit based studies but I really need a concrete example to help me understand how I might go about it.

 

Thank you!

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8FillTheHeart,

 

I love reading your posts and was very intrigued when, way up thread, you mentioned an Anne of Green Gables study.  Unfortunately, most of the links, including that one, don't seem to be functioning any more.  Would you mind reposting the Anne list?  Or a current one?  I like the idea of lit based studies but I really need a concrete example to help me understand how I might go about it.

 

Thank you!

 

I am glad you find my posts helpful.  Our Anne study is one of my all time favorites.  Dd still talks about it. :)  I found this post with some of the titles via a google search: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/357965-anne-of-green-gables-study-guide/?p=3721394

 

FWIW, I have written a very simple book describing how I design studies.  If that might be helpful, it is linked in my siggie.

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