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I'm really frustrated about this "The Light and The Glory" thing!


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If SL had always used it or just pulled it because of customer complaints and then reintroduced it, that would be a different story. BUT, you don't post a dissertation about it's inaccuracies and state that it's an embarrassment, remove it and then bring it back saying it has value. This doesn't sit well with me. I don't have to be on board with every belief a curriculum author has and still use the curriculum, but when the author seemingly goes against their OWN beliefs it's a whole other ballgame.

 

I usually stay out of controversy, but hypocrisy is hard to ignore. I'm so disappointed and disheartened about this!

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If SL had always used it or just pulled it because of customer complaints and then reintroduced it, that would be a different story. BUT, you don't post a dissertation about it's inaccuracies and state that it's an embarrassment, remove it and then bring it back saying it has value. This doesn't sit well with me. I don't have to be on board with every belief a curriculum author has and still use the curriculum, but when the author seemingly goes against their OWN beliefs it's a whole other ballgame.

 

I usually stay out of controversy, but hypocrisy is hard to ignore. I'm so disappointed and disheartened about this!

 

I thought John, who wrote about why they pulled it, no longer worked for the company? So it's different people in charge now? I'm not all hip on the SL changes, lol, but I've read that multiple times.

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I don't know about the controversy, but I have the exact same ambivalence about that book and the others in the series.

 

They are VERY Providential, to an extreme that I can't support. Also they have views of the morality and values of history that are decidedly not mainstream/scholarly/historian-style and present these as fact rather than opinion. That means that I consider them fairly propagandistic, and misrepresenting of God, and not entirely accurate. Having said that, they are extraordinarily engaging and well-written and do contain a great deal of true history, about times that are often covered only very drily.

 

I only used one, and commented heavily on it, and made sure to present other views. But it was a great read, and interesting to consider. Still, it appalls me to think of people using these books as their primary sources. It is quite rare for me to have such extreme views in both directions about the same books. I wish that SWB would write a series on US history that was as engaging as SOTW. Or that someone else would do so. We really need this.

 

ETA: And I waited until DD was in middle school before using it. By then she was accustomed to critiquing historical sources and not necessarily believing everything they said. And the one that we read was about the pre-Civil War period, not the colonial one which I would not touch with a 10 foot pole.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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I'm not on the SL forums so I'm not necessarily "in the know" but I think it is true that John no longer heads the ship over at SL. He and Sarita are still married but he has given over sole leadership to her again.

 

I agreed with his take on that book and I refuse to use a lot of other books and programs like it. I can't imagine why they would put this back in, either and I'm sure the only way Sarita is going to be able to explain it, will be to say that she disagreed with John on all of his opinions regarding the book. If so, she will need to add in a LOT of notes and she will clearly lose other customers who agreed with John...it's impossible to counter-balance a book like that, at that age easily. Even if they put in several books that explained more about the founding fathers, the brutal treatment of the Indians, and the consitution, how can they explain away the many direct statements in the book about the godliness of those people...??

 

But this is indicative of my feelings toward SL. They are a business and I don't fault them for that but they seem to be in it for the $, to the point that they are willing to be CHAMELEONS in order to keep up with whatever they think people will buy more of.

 

Unfortunately, without a clear vision and direction, any business will lose long time customers, when the business is a chameleon.

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Mine are older now, but we used Sonlight for quite awhile in the grammar stage and I have a friend who was one of their first customers and is still using it. They've done this sort of thing throughout their history.

 

A similar controversy erupted because they used the original Child's History of the World which had the racial undertones by noting the sections and writing their own commentary. People were furious that they would publish such a book (Sonlight reprinted it for awhile) when they didn't like parts of it. Then they switched to the revised Calvert edition which had that taken out, but people still objected because the author's original version showed his biases and they didn't want to support a publisher that had once published a book that was blantantly racial.

 

There was another book too although I can't remember the title now. They vehemently took it out, and then a few years later put it back in with extensive commentary.

 

I've never found a program that I'm 100% on board with, so we just accepted it for what it was at the time. I have some level of issues with every publisher we've ever used in over a decade of homeschooling, so I just accept that sort of thing.

 

YMMV...

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Can you tell me which core is going to use this book? I'm planning on reading this with my son and would love to see the core.

It is going to be in the new Core D. The sample of the core instructor's guide is on their site in the area with the new changes.

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It is going to be in the new Core D. The sample of the core instructor's guide is on their site in the area with the new changes.

 

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

 

I was *this-close* to using D next year.

 

But, I don't have the time or, frankly, interest in tweaking history resources. I wanted something open and go so it would be more likely to get done.

 

This stinks!

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NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

 

I was *this-close* to using D next year.

 

But, I don't have the time or, frankly, interest in tweaking history resources. I wanted something open and go so it would be more likely to get done.

 

This stinks!

 

OK, but the CORE is open and go. It's just that the book isn't. The Core will tell you what to say about the book and give you other resources as well.

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The book is listed on the fifth day, though. If you are only doing history four days a week it won't be an issue.

Even better.

They are using it like I did. It's an engaging book but wrong, so it should not be the only or even the main text, but it does have some value, but only if your children are old enough to accept that these books can err and disagree.

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Even better.

They are using it like I did. It's an engaging book but wrong, so it should not be the only or even the main text, but it does have some value, but only if your children are old enough to accept that these books can err and disagree.

 

And unfortunately, those cores using it (D and E - there are 3 books used from this guy)are aimed at 3rd-5th graders. They said they're using them to fill in holes in history, but I think those holes could wait until Core 100 or whatever it's called that has US history.

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OK, but the CORE is open and go. It's just that the book isn't. The Core will tell you what to say about the book and give you other resources as well.

 

We don't know what they'll choose to say about the books. The samples did not show any sorts of notes at all, only discussion questions to make sure children understood what was read.

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If SL had always used it or just pulled it because of customer complaints and then reintroduced it, that would be a different story. BUT, you don't post a dissertation about it's inaccuracies and state that it's an embarrassment, remove it and then bring it back saying it has value. This doesn't sit well with me. I don't have to be on board with every belief a curriculum author has and still use the curriculum, but when the author seemingly goes against their OWN beliefs it's a whole other ballgame.

 

I usually stay out of controversy, but hypocrisy is hard to ignore. I'm so disappointed and disheartened about this!

 

I agree. It's disheartening and disingenuous of them as a company. They need to release some sort of statement of revised purpose/philosophy. They are no longer a company that I am planning on supporting, not just because of the content that I don't agree with, but because of the way things are being handled.

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I support Sonlight and I try to buy from them.

 

This is even though I have never used one of their cores.

 

They were among the first to put forward a one stop shopping approach to Christian homeschooling. They put their programs together for missionary families and have a strong focus on missions work, in a respectful, multi-culturally sensitive way, which I think is really good. They have been outcast by a radical VF Christian element in many areas, and even in their own state. There is no whiff of racism or anything like that in their materials, unlike those who cast them out. They can't fall back on secular homeschoolers like others can.

 

They are not perfect, but I think that they are good. And I want them to stay in business. I don't want the only fairly conservative Christian homeschooling voice to be radical VF-style.

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I support Sonlight and I try to buy from them.

 

This is even though I have never used one of their cores.

 

They were among the first to put forward a one stop shopping approach to Christian homeschooling. They put their programs together for missionary families and have a strong focus on missions work, in a respectful, multi-culturally sensitive way, which I think is really good.

 

What we've seen in the new IG samples says otherwise.

 

They have been outcast by a radical VF Christian element in many areas, and even in their own state. There is no whiff of racism or anything like that in their materials, unlike those who cast them out.

 

It looks like Sarita is trying to remedy that.

 

They can't fall back on secular homeschoolers like others can.

 

That's their own doing. They have been happily and easily used by secular homeschoolers for a long time. It's the changes to fall more in line wiith the radical evangelicals that are pushing away not only secular homeschooers, but many mainline Christians as well.

 

They are not perfect, but I think that they are good. And I want them to stay in business. I don't want the only fairly conservative Christian homeschooling voice to be radical VF-style.

 

I would have said the same thing a few weeks ago. Now, I'm just not sure where they stand and I can't.

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Mine are older now, but we used Sonlight for quite awhile in the grammar stage and I have a friend who was one of their first customers and is still using it. They've done this sort of thing throughout their history.

 

A similar controversy erupted because they used the original Child's History of the World which had the racial undertones by noting the sections and writing their own commentary. People were furious that they would publish such a book (Sonlight reprinted it for awhile) when they didn't like parts of it. Then they switched to the revised Calvert edition which had that taken out, but people still objected because the author's original version showed his biases and they didn't want to support a publisher that had once published a book that was blantantly racial.

 

There was another book too although I can't remember the title now. They vehemently took it out, and then a few years later put it back in with extensive commentary.

 

I've never found a program that I'm 100% on board with, so we just accepted it for what it was at the time. I have some level of issues with every publisher we've ever used in over a decade of homeschooling, so I just accept that sort of thing.

 

YMMV...

 

Yep, this same issue happened with their science. Young earth...old earth....young earth.....old earth....pick a side, any side:glare:

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I support Sonlight and I try to buy from them.

 

This is even though I have never used one of their cores.

 

They were among the first to put forward a one stop shopping approach to Christian homeschooling. They put their programs together for missionary families and have a strong focus on missions work, in a respectful, multi-culturally sensitive way, which I think is really good. They have been outcast by a radical VF Christian element in many areas, and even in their own state. There is no whiff of racism or anything like that in their materials, unlike those who cast them out. They can't fall back on secular homeschoolers like others can.

 

They are not perfect, but I think that they are good. And I want them to stay in business. I don't want the only fairly conservative Christian homeschooling voice to be radical VF-style.

 

Sarita appears to say otherwise, in emails to customers, in the Beam, and now maybe even in the curriculum choices.

Edited by melmichigan
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I support Sonlight and I try to buy from them.

 

This is even though I have never used one of their cores.

 

They were among the first to put forward a one stop shopping approach to Christian homeschooling. They put their programs together for missionary families and have a strong focus on missions work, in a respectful, multi-culturally sensitive way, which I think is really good. They have been outcast by a radical VF Christian element in many areas, and even in their own state. There is no whiff of racism or anything like that in their materials, unlike those who cast them out. They can't fall back on secular homeschoolers like others can.

 

They are not perfect, but I think that they are good. And I want them to stay in business. I don't want the only fairly conservative Christian homeschooling voice to be radical VF-style.

 

Carol, I really respect your opinion & I wish I could agree with you. I just can't.

 

Ive loved the missions focus that we've had this year with cores b & d. I believe in evangelism & missions 100%. But this THUMB business being included I don't feel is respectful at all. It isn't something I want to expose my children to. Labeling & targeting large groups of people that way isnt something that should be taught to children IMO.

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Can someone sum up the controversy about the book series in question?

 

I never go to the SL boards, so I don't know what this is about.

 

The Light and the Glory used to be in Core D and E. It was removed, and John gave this reasoning:

 

https://forums.sonlight.com/topic/86678-curious/page__view__findpost__p__1074144

 

They are now putting it back in Core D and E, which is meant for grades 3-6. I could maybe see using it with the 6th grader and a LOT of discussion, but a 3rd grader? Seriously?

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I supported John Holzmann's Sonlight 100%, and I'm so thankful I bought all the elementary-jr.high cores when he was at the helm.

 

I do not support Sarita Holzmann's Sonlight at all.

 

So what years was he at the helm? I just started using Sonlight, and I love what I have so far (2005 Core D). I may just have to go used again for Core E as well, if we stick with it. That's fine... those older IGs are pretty cheap. I had been planning to buy the newer IG for Core E next time if we continued with it, just to help support the company, but now it looks like I'll stick with the cheap older core.

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What is the teaching in the light of glory 3 bk series? I haven't read through them yet.

I bought them a while back on a steal deal, and was maybe going to use them next year. I would love to know what exactly you ladies disagree with and why. I don't want to use them, if they are not accurate. Ya know?? :confused:

 

Never mind - I read John's article and it explained it all. Wow. I was raised on Abeka History, so I am learning soo much, along with my kiddos. Unbelievable things I never knew.

 

Hey, anyone want to buy a set of three Light of Glory books? Heehee ;)

Edited by mommyof4AZ
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Can someone sum up the controversy about the book series in question?

 

I never go to the SL boards, so I don't know what this is about.

 

It wouldn't make much difference to go there. They've locked all threads discussing it. Someone asked point-blank if this meant that they were endorsing a providentialist view of American history and it was deleted.

 

The book series claims that America is God's chosen land. The authors claim to know God's intent and misuse sources and outright ignore facts in order to "prove" their thesis.

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So what years was he at the helm? I just started using Sonlight, and I love what I have so far (2005 Core D). I may just have to go used again for Core E as well, if we stick with it. That's fine... those older IGs are pretty cheap. I had been planning to buy the newer IG for Core E next time if we continued with it, just to help support the company, but now it looks like I'll stick with the cheap older core.

 

Hi! I don't post here much, hope nobody minds me just barging in.

 

I believe Sarita has always been president of Sonlight. If you look at their history, they started the company up as an idea Sarita had with a friend and fellow homeschooling neighbor, but the business aspect was Sarita and John's from the beginning. John resigned from day-to-day operations and pretty much dropped out of active participation in the forums in 2008.

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I lost my respect for them when they allowed and then highlighted a thread on their forums in which people discussed various means of torture to get their kids to comply when it comes to getting schoolwork done (ie, withholding meals, putting their desk in an empty,bare room to work, "demeaning" the to doing housework while explaining if they don't study, they will have to clean homes (which also demeaned being a homemaker), making kids do various pointless hard labor outside moving rocks, digging, etc.) it was horrifying and they both allowed it and linked the thread in a newsletter-type email. No thanks.

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The whole thing is a travesty. The company that I've supported for 12 years now is in large part no longer recognizable to me. The changes have been gradual, and to some, they may not even be evident. But the "reasons NOT to use Sonlight" that attracted many of us are in large part now defunct.

 

I'll continue using SL; I own the books and Instructor's Guides, and the literature and schedule are what I care about. But I'll no longer financially support the company. (see edit below) The reintroduction of materials they previously deemed an embarrassment, with no acknowledgment of that previous assessment, is patronizing beyond belief. Even moreso when attempts to discuss the matter are shut down or removed altogether.

 

ETA: To be more accurate, I'll purchase from SL those items that I can't obtain elsewhere, since I'm continuing to use the curriculum. But whereas in the past, I intentionally bought as much as I could from SL, I'll redirect my dollars now and order from my local, independent book shop ~ or buy used.

Edited by Colleen
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The book isn't really the issue for me. It's the reason behind pulling the book and then the fact that it's back without much of an explanation. SL said books are pulled all of the time. But are they pulled for the same reasons as TLATG? If the book was pulled because it went AGAINST SL's beliefs and philosophy does this mean that their belief system has changed? Are the inaccuracies and embarrassments John wrote about no longer inaccurate or embarrassing? Maybe it was only John who felt the book should be pulled. It just makes me wonder what's going on. If I only use SL as a book list I wouldn't care, but I use their notes and questions. I don't know if my beliefs line up with SL's any longer.

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The reinclusion of the book is not, itself, the core issue to me. Sonlight's always been about using good books with some questionable bits, dealing with the questionable bits through discussion. And previously they first thought the good stuff outweighed the questionable stuff, then decided that, no, the bad outweighs the good, and told their customers why. And now they've decided, upon re-re-evaluation, that the good does in fact outweigh the bad. Fine, that's all well and good.

 

But the refusal to discuss *why* their evaluation changed is frustrating. The boilerplate response seems to be all about, "yes it has its questionable bits, like all our books, and like all our books, we address those issues in the IG." But it entirely ignores the inconvenient fact that they themselves once decided the questionable bits were just too much :glare:.

 

Dh's comment was that we've always been at war with eastasia :tongue_smilie:.

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I am so confused by all of this. It sounds like a very confused company. Can someone tell me what happened with John H.? Why did he quit, and why doesn't anyone like his wife's changes?

 

That's what I'm wondering as well. Anyone have a link explaining what happened?

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If SL had always used it or just pulled it because of customer complaints and then reintroduced it, that would be a different story. BUT, you don't post a dissertation about it's inaccuracies and state that it's an embarrassment, remove it and then bring it back saying it has value. This doesn't sit well with me. I don't have to be on board with every belief a curriculum author has and still use the curriculum, but when the author seemingly goes against their OWN beliefs it's a whole other ballgame.

 

I usually stay out of controversy, but hypocrisy is hard to ignore. I'm so disappointed and disheartened about this!

 

ah yes, and now SL has shut down all conversation about it.

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I thought John, who wrote about why they pulled it, no longer worked for the company? So it's different people in charge now? I'm not all hip on the SL changes, lol, but I've read that multiple times.

 

John did step down from day to day work there. SL sort of spun off some umbrella companies (I'm not totally sure of how they tie in).

 

He and Sarita are co owners still.

Sarita has always been there, John probably did more of the writing work though. Several of their children now work for SL in varing degrees

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I'm not on the SL forums so I'm not necessarily "in the know" but I think it is true that John no longer heads the ship over at SL. He and Sarita are still married but he has given over sole leadership to her again.

 

I agreed with his take on that book and I refuse to use a lot of other books and programs like it. I can't imagine why they would put this back in, either and I'm sure the only way Sarita is going to be able to explain it, will be to say that she disagreed with John on all of his opinions regarding the book. If so, she will need to add in a LOT of notes and she will clearly lose other customers who agreed with John...it's impossible to counter-balance a book like that, at that age easily. Even if they put in several books that explained more about the founding fathers, the brutal treatment of the Indians, and the consitution, how can they explain away the many direct statements in the book about the godliness of those people...??

 

But this is indicative of my feelings toward SL. They are a business and I don't fault them for that but they seem to be in it for the $, to the point that they are willing to be CHAMELEONS in order to keep up with whatever they think people will buy more of.

 

Unfortunately, without a clear vision and direction, any business will lose long time customers, when the business is a chameleon.

That is ringing true.

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What we've seen in the new IG samples says otherwise.

 

 

 

It looks like Sarita is trying to remedy that.

 

 

 

That's their own doing. They have been happily and easily used by secular homeschoolers for a long time. It's the changes to fall more in line wiith the radical evangelicals that are pushing away not only secular homeschooers, but many mainline Christians as well.

 

 

 

I would have said the same thing a few weeks ago. Now, I'm just not sure where they stand and I can't.

This is pretty much where I see it going. I'm a long time user have just about all the cores

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That's what I'm wondering as well. Anyone have a link explaining what happened?

 

I just went over to youtube and looked up Sonlight curriculum and watched the entire 54 minute video John Holzmann did on the history of Sonlight for the company's 20th.

 

The beginning gives good insight into the backgrounds of John and Sarita and how they balanced each other so well. The last 15 minutes or so gives an explanation why John began pulling back for the next generation of the company and I found heartbreaking for his personal emotional investment in the company and customers and the toll it had on him.

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I am so confused by all of this. It sounds like a very confused company. Can someone tell me what happened with John H.? Why did he quit, and why doesn't anyone like his wife's changes? I am seriously considering buying one of their cores this year.

 

Honestly It is just a long drawn out mess. Sarita begin with limiting the way to use the forums, can't draw people away from their faith

 

but there has been the shift as others are pointing out in the way SL use to be as a Christian company and the more strict Evangelical company of today

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I just went over to youtube and looked up Sonlight curriculum and watched the entire 54 minute video John Holzmann did on the history of Sonlight for the company's 20th.

 

The beginning gives good insight into the backgrounds of John and Sarita and how they balanced each other so well. The last 15 minutes or so gives an explanation why John began pulling back for the next generation of the company and I found heartbreaking for his personal emotional investment in the company and customers and the toll it had on him.

 

 

I watched that live. It was part of what convinced me I wanted to be a Sonlighter.

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Somewhere along the line Sonlight acquired the reputation for "listening to its customers." People have this expectation of that and are shocked and dismayed to find that SL really does not listen at all. Sure, they have an open ear. But shall I say, ever since John left, there have been forum poofs when discussions got heated, threads locked, threads deleted, people denied further access to their forums, forums requiring payment, etc.

 

Sure, they have their forums, but since most of them are closed to the public, why should they care what is being posted there?

 

It amuses me that all of these changes in the new IG Sarita has attributed to the fact that their employee Wayne stated the IGs were difficult to use, and then their daughter stated that they were impossible to muddle through . . . thus the improvements we see this year. Never mind the fact that these issues have been addressed ad nauseum by custmer feedback on their forums for about 10 years. Amusing to me that Sarita never said once in her video that customers had anything to do with their changes.

 

I believe they are very purposefully trying to get back to their own American Christian roots, to stop trying to please everybody (or maybe anybody) and get busy producing a curriculum package and guide that can bring "the next generation" of homeschoolers under their wing. I think Sarita is much more providential American Christian than John was ever willing to publicly be. They (Sonlight and the Holzmanns) have paid quite a price personally and with the "Christian Homeschool Movement" as it were, and I don't think Sarita is willing to engage in conversation about her choices, least of all with customers of old, when they have so many more waiting to join the bandwagon.

 

The "conversation days" with Sonlight have been long dead and gone.

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I supported John Holzmann's Sonlight 100%, and I'm so thankful I bought all the elementary-jr.high cores when he was at the helm.

 

I do not support Sarita Holzmann's Sonlight at all.

:iagree:

We have used 9 of the 10 cores owned and will not be using this company again. I will not support them anymore. Over the years I have gotten a feeling that something is just not right. They are condescending and rude to those who question them.

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With all of Amy's talk about how we should just trust her mom because she chooses great books, I get the feeling that taking the book descriptions out of the catalog last year wasn't just about making it more difficult for people to use as a booklist, but also about not questioning the books that Sarita is choosing for us. We don't need to know about them, we just need to trust her.

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:iagree:

We have used 9 of the 10 cores owned and will not be using this company again. I will not support them anymore. Over the years I have gotten a feeling that something is just not right. They are condescending and rude to those who question them.

 

Yes, you are so right. I no longer participate in the forum there. Their "customer champion" is no champion of mine.

 

It was good while it lasted.

 

Oh, can I add that I teach a writing class in a co-op where some of the kids have written essays that make me want to vomit, frankly, purporting that Americans are the best and we are better than everyone else because. . . and homeschoolers are smarter than anyone in public school . . . and really, I attribute this to their use of those Providential American curriculums I know they are using. I think, what are they standing on?

 

When these kids get in the real world, they are going to just be as narrow as any indoctrinated public school student (generalizing here), because they have been exposed to only one point of view -- America is God's blessed country, and homeschoolers beat public schoolers every time. Such a rude awakening they are in for.

 

Even if I could put up with this teaching with my kid . . . and they (Sonlight) try to defend this choice, saying it is "only done on the 5th day, so skip it if you like" -- as if that book choice does not demonstrate their whole way of thinking -- which I disagree with . . . but I digress . . .

 

Even if I could stand it with my kid, I shudder to think that my daughter -- who loved Sonlight growing up -- would use it with THESE books with her three daughters, who would then turn out to have that warped thinking of those kids I mention. God has blessed America. We are his chosen people. Amen and halleluia, and aren't we glad we are free to be homeschooled.

 

Garbage.

 

I am also glad I have all the cores already. No buying new for me. Yuck.

Edited by Jonibee
For a typo.
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