Finishing RightStart B - transition to MM or Singapore???

[LynnG in Arizona]

It's that time of year when I'm finishing up curricula and looking towards next year. :)

 

My 1st grader will finish Right Start Level B at the end of this school year (we did RS Level A last year). Although I have not particularly enjoyed teaching RS B, I do honestly think it is a phenomenal program. In fact, I'm planning to start RS A with my kindergarten son during the coming year. I'm committed to using levels A and B with him as well.

 

But I know I want to move on at this point, albeit reluctantly since I finally feel comfortable with Right Start and have enjoyed the scripting way more than I thought I would! I am concerned that SO many people run into serious problems with Level C, and I also know that I don't want to go through all the drawing lessons in that level.

 

My obvious choices are to go on to Math Mammoth or Singapore, and I'm having a really hard time deciding between the two. Ironically, I have taught Singapore levels 1-6 with my older girls, and I know it's a good program. However, I never did like all the switching around of books, and always tending to forget to add in enough review. I think I'd be perfectly happy to use Singapore again if someone had turned it into a scripted program! ;) Maybe the new Instructor guides would help??

 

I know the advantages of MM are that it's self contained and quite inexpensive. I admittedly don't look forward to all the self printing, however. And I'm concerned that MM may not be as aesthetically pleasing to work with as Singapore is.

 

Any tips from those of you who have transitioned to one of these programs after Right Start B? I would love to hear some BTDT input from you as to which choice might make for the smoothest transition.

 

Thanks in advance!

[LynnG in Arizona]

Bumping . . . input, anyone? :)

[lorisuewho]

I don't have any BTDT advice.

 

I fully agree with you on Rightstart. We did A and B this year and I loved it (and I will use them with my next son for certain; great program!) but we are moving on.

 

I decided to go with Singapore even though I agree with your strength/weaknesses of MM and SM. We are going to be supplementing SM with CLE for the spiral review. I still cannot decide if I am buying all the books for SM 2a/b or if just some parts of it; there are so many books!

 

Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in for you.

[Crimson Wife]

I use Singapore for a couple of reasons. #1 being that I love the Intensive Practice and Challenging Word Problems books and would want to use those even if MM was our spine. #2 being the printing issue. Our virtual charter will pay for Singapore but they do not pay for e-books.

[2squared]

But I know I want to move on at this point, albeit reluctantly since I finally feel comfortable with Right Start and have enjoyed the scripting way more than I thought I would! I am concerned that SO many people run into serious problems with Level C, and I also know that I don't want to go through all the drawing lessons in that level.

 

Well....I wouldn't move on just because others do. I was at your crossroads two years ago, and I decided to stick with RightStart. I love the program, it works for us, and there isn't a perfect math program. Every program has negatives. My kids also do Singapore CWP.

 

If the drawing lessons aren't your thing, then skip them. That's what we do. Only about 6 lessons out of 150 have drawing components, and drawing isn't the entire lesson. My kids have enjoyed the drawing that we did, though.

 

My oldest is moving into RightStart E next year.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I don't have any BTDT advice.

 

I fully agree with you on Rightstart. We did A and B this year and I loved it (and I will use them with my next son for certain; great program!) but we are moving on.

 

I decided to go with Singapore even though I agree with your strength/weaknesses of MM and SM. We are going to be supplementing SM with CLE for the spiral review. I still cannot decide if I am buying all the books for SM 2a/b or if just some parts of it; there are so many books!

 

Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in for you.

 

Lori, sounds like we're in the same boat. Hope your choice works out well for you!! :)

[LynnG in Arizona]

I use Singapore for a couple of reasons. #1 being that I love the Intensive Practice and Challenging Word Problems books and would want to use those even if MM was our spine. #2 being the printing issue. Our virtual charter will pay for Singapore but they do not pay for e-books.

 

Crimson Wife,

 

Can I ask you a nuts and bolts question about Singapore?

 

How has the transition been for you going from RS to Singapore? As I said in my original post, I have gotten very used to the scripting in RS. I actually like the fact that she reminds me to review mental math, grab a specific manipulative, etc.!

 

I have used Singapore for 6 years with 2 kids, and loved many aspects of it, but I just wish it could be more scripted. I did find that it was easy to let review, use of manipulatives, etc. fall through the cracks when I was teaching it before. In fairness, however, this was ten years ago, and I never used the Instructor Guides.

 

Do you use the Instructor Guides, and have you found them to be a pretty good substitute for the RS scripting? Or are you having to wing it quite a bit more? :)

[LynnG in Arizona]

Well....I wouldn't move on just because others do. I was at your crossroads two years ago, and I decided to stick with RightStart. I love the program, it works for us, and there isn't a perfect math program. Every program has negatives. My kids also do Singapore CWP.

 

If the drawing lessons aren't your thing, then skip them. That's what we do. Only about 6 lessons out of 150 have drawing components, and drawing isn't the entire lesson. My kids have enjoyed the drawing that we did, though.

 

My oldest is moving into RightStart E next year.

 

Melissa, you definitely make a good point. I am semi tempted to stick with RS until (unless!) it doesn't fit us anymore.

 

But I do feel that it is prudent for me to take seriously the many, many families who have gone before me in this program and had significant problems with Level C.

 

What has your experience been with levels C and D? Were you as satisfied with those levels just like levels A and B, or did you too experience a downturn of some type?

 

Also, how have you found it teaching more than one level of RS at a time? I'm definitely nervous about that aspect as well. (Though I of course expect any math in the early grades to be teacher intensive.)

 

Thank you all for your input and please keep it coming!! :)

[Soror]

I

Well....I wouldn't move on just because others do. I was at your crossroads two years ago, and I decided to stick with RightStart. I love the program, it works for us, and there isn't a perfect math program. Every program has negatives. My kids also do Singapore CWP.

 

If the drawing lessons aren't your thing, then skip them. That's what we do. Only about 6 lessons out of 150 have drawing components, and drawing isn't the entire lesson. My kids have enjoyed the drawing that we did, though.

 

My oldest is moving into RightStart E next year.

 

I was at the same place questioning rather or not to switch after lvl b but decided to stick with it and now we are over 2/3rds through C he loved the drawing and we are going on to D this summer/fall. I've already bought it -found it used for a deal. I plan to do challenging word problems. This summer and maybe try Beast Academy for fun if I can fit it in the budget.

[2squared]

Melissa, you definitely make a good point. I am semi tempted to stick with RS until (unless!) it doesn't fit us anymore.

 

But I do feel that it is prudent for me to take seriously the many, many families who have gone before me in this program and had significant problems with Level C.

 

What has your experience been with levels C and D? Were you as satisfied with those levels just like levels A and B, or did you too experience a downturn of some type?

 

Also, how have you found it teaching more than one level of RS at a time? I'm definitely nervous about that aspect as well. (Though I of course expect any math in the early grades to be teacher intensive.)

 

Thank you all for your input and please keep it coming!! :)

 

I have liked levels C and D - enough to move onto E and to keep the youngers going through the RS sequence. :) Level B was intense, and you go through a lot of information while you are in the early stage of homeschooling. I kinda feel as though Levels C and D are more mature and less exciting. We are all used to the RS way, worksheets become a regular part of the lessons, and manipulative use drops off. The concepts introduced in Level B are reinforced and taken to deeper levels.

 

My 4th grader tests above grade level in math despite being a grade level "behind" in RS. All the kids ask to do math first. None of them have needed additional fact drill or game playing beyond what the manuals direct.

 

I have read all the posts about others who switched programs after Level B when I agonized over our decision 2 years ago. It seemed as though everyone was switching and I would be a fool not to. As I looked at the other programs, there wasn't one that really spoke to me or felt as right as RS. We were getting great results with RS, and the reasons others were switching really weren't things I was having issues with, so I took the plunge. I stayed the course.

 

Teaching 2-3 levels at once hasn't been an issue for me, but I don't try to complete one lesson every day and I prioritize the 3Rs. I have a set time for math for each dc, and that's what we stick to regardless of progress - some days we only complete part of a lesson and some days we get in more than one lesson. I would be spending a chunk of time on math regardless of the program, and I know RS works. I think the investment is worth it. Once you've been through the levels once and you've seen where it all goes, you can teach much quicker the second or third time around.

 

There's our story. :D

[Terabith]

I did RS C with my older one, and it was good, but it wasn't AWESOME like RS A and B. It was fine. There were things I liked about it and things I didn't, but it was just so time intensive to teach that I had a hard time justifying it for "good." I transitioned over to Singapore, largely because it was just more user friendly for my daughter. More white space, color, etc. She prefers it. I've been happy. It's teaching the same conceptual way as Right Start, and while there are things RS does better (geometry, etc), there are things that Singapore does better.

 

I think RS C is a fine program, but at that point I think the cost/ benefit makes sense to switch. I'm using B with my younger dd but I am unlikely to do C with her.

[2squared]

I did RS C with my older one, and it was good, but it wasn't AWESOME like RS A and B. It was fine. There were things I liked about it and things I didn't, but it was just so time intensive to teach that I had a hard time justifying it for "good." I transitioned over to Singapore, largely because it was just more user friendly for my daughter. More white space, color, etc. She prefers it. I've been happy. It's teaching the same conceptual way as Right Start, and while there are things RS does better (geometry, etc), there are things that Singapore does better.

 

I agree that Levels C & D are probably equal to Singapore or MM. You just have to decide which program you want to teach. I like RightStart for many of the same reasons as the OP - I like having one teacher's manual, I like having the lessons laid out, and I like that my kids like the program. I debate every year about getting the worksheet CD, but I like the simplicity of ordering the student workbooks and not having to manage loose sheets of paper or printing throughout the year.

 

Many people talk about how time-intensive RS is, but I guess I don't feel that way. I like that we spend less time on math overall with RS than most people spend on math each day. I still schedule 30 min/day with C & D, but part of that time becomes worksheet work so it's not all one-on-one (if you don't want it to be). I also like that every 6th day is a review worksheet so those days I only spend about 5 min working on math. On the flip side, I like to be present while my kids are completing their worksheets. I would probably spend all our math time one-on-one regardless of the program we use.

[Crimson Wife]

Crimson Wife,

 

Can I ask you a nuts and bolts question about Singapore?

 

How has the transition been for you going from RS to Singapore? As I said in my original post, I have gotten very used to the scripting in RS. I actually like the fact that she reminds me to review mental math, grab a specific manipulative, etc.!

 

I have used Singapore for 6 years with 2 kids, and loved many aspects of it, but I just wish it could be more scripted. I did find that it was easy to let review, use of manipulatives, etc. fall through the cracks when I was teaching it before. In fairness, however, this was ten years ago, and I never used the Instructor Guides.

 

Do you use the Instructor Guides, and have you found them to be a pretty good substitute for the RS scripting? Or are you having to wing it quite a bit more? :)

 

I apologize for not seeing this until just now. I do absolutely need the standard edition HIG's for 3A & up. Unfortunately, they are nowhere near as helpful as the RS scripting.

 

The flip side of that, however, is because the lessons are not scripted like RS, Singapore is a lot easier to accelerate for a bright child. That's a big reason why I got frustrated with RS in the middle of C and why I switched my oldest to Singapore 3A after finishing that level. RS B has a great challenge level IMHO but then Dr. Cotter slows things way, way down for the higher levels. I really wish she had taken all the material covered in C-E and compacted them into just 2 levels.

 

My 2nd child is using RS B in combination with Singapore 1B and I plan to take him through at least the first part of C. I'm not sure whether I will finish C or do the higher RS levels with him. He prefers Singapore, so probably not.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I have liked levels C and D - enough to move onto E and to keep the youngers going through the RS sequence. :) Level B was intense, and you go through a lot of information while you are in the early stage of homeschooling. I kinda feel as though Levels C and D are more mature and less exciting. We are all used to the RS way, worksheets become a regular part of the lessons, and manipulative use drops off. The concepts introduced in Level B are reinforced and taken to deeper levels.

 

My 4th grader tests above grade level in math despite being a grade level "behind" in RS. All the kids ask to do math first. None of them have needed additional fact drill or game playing beyond what the manuals direct.

 

I have read all the posts about others who switched programs after Level B when I agonized over our decision 2 years ago. It seemed as though everyone was switching and I would be a fool not to. As I looked at the other programs, there wasn't one that really spoke to me or felt as right as RS. We were getting great results with RS, and the reasons others were switching really weren't things I was having issues with, so I took the plunge. I stayed the course.

 

Teaching 2-3 levels at once hasn't been an issue for me, but I don't try to complete one lesson every day and I prioritize the 3Rs. I have a set time for math for each dc, and that's what we stick to regardless of progress - some days we only complete part of a lesson and some days we get in more than one lesson. I would be spending a chunk of time on math regardless of the program, and I know RS works. I think the investment is worth it. Once you've been through the levels once and you've seen where it all goes, you can teach much quicker the second or third time around.

 

There's our story. :D

 

Jennifer, I deeply appreciate all that you have contributed to this conversation. And I just realized I called you by the completely wrong name (Melissa) in my earlier post! I apologize - don't even know how I got that!

 

You have truly given me a lot to think about; you make a very persuasive argument for sticking with RS.

 

One thing you mentioned is that your 4th grader is a year "behind" in RS. (And I realize that it isn't really behind.) So did you take more than one year to get through a level, then?

 

I ask because yesterday I looked up the Level C table of contents and saw that there were 150 lessons. I was a little disheartened to see that because we take two full days to get through each lesson in Level B. Even doing that takes about 20-30 minutes/day, with the average probably being 25 or 30. I think it would feel a lot to both my daughter and me if we were to do an entire lesson in a day. Granted, we do ALL the review questions, etc. - but my question is whether or not you typically do a full lesson per day in Levels C and D?

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me - I sincerely appreciate it!! :)

[LynnG in Arizona]

I did RS C with my older one, and it was good, but it wasn't AWESOME like RS A and B. It was fine. There were things I liked about it and things I didn't, but it was just so time intensive to teach that I had a hard time justifying it for "good." I transitioned over to Singapore, largely because it was just more user friendly for my daughter. More white space, color, etc. She prefers it. I've been happy. It's teaching the same conceptual way as Right Start, and while there are things RS does better (geometry, etc), there are things that Singapore does better.

 

I think RS C is a fine program, but at that point I think the cost/ benefit makes sense to switch. I'm using B with my younger dd but I am unlikely to do C with her.

 

Thank you, Terabith. I guess that's what I have been afraid of (based on feedback from other moms) - that Levels A and B are completely fantastic, but subsequent levels are less so. I'm glad Singapore has been a successful transition for you and your daughter.

 

Thanks for the input!

[LynnG in Arizona]

I apologize for not seeing this until just now. I do absolutely need the standard edition HIG's for 3A & up. Unfortunately, they are nowhere near as helpful as the RS scripting.

 

The flip side of that, however, is because the lessons are not scripted like RS, Singapore is a lot easier to accelerate for a bright child. That's a big reason why I got frustrated with RS in the middle of C and why I switched my oldest to Singapore 3A after finishing that level. RS B has a great challenge level IMHO but then Dr. Cotter slows things way, way down for the higher levels. I really wish she had taken all the material covered in C-E and compacted them into just 2 levels.

 

My 2nd child is using RS B in combination with Singapore 1B and I plan to take him through at least the first part of C. I'm not sure whether I will finish C or do the higher RS levels with him. He prefers Singapore, so probably not.

 

Thanks for the reply, Crimson Wife!

 

I hear what you're saying . . . Level B definitely has some challenging moments (particularly the mental 2-digit addition such as 68 + 79 . . . not easy for a little 6 year old to do completely in her head!).

 

Just out of curiosity, why are you planning to do at least the first part of RS Level C? Is there something in there that is particularly good or helpful?

 

I so appreciate your input!! :)

[Terabith]

I like the first part of C better than the second half. It's also possible that part of my RS burn out was because we were spending almost an hour on math. Part of that was the worksheet, but most of it was working with me. I spend less time on Singapore, which is a big plus since I'm homeschooling my second child now who is a non reader and not independent in anything yet.

 

I agree with CrimsonWife that it is more difficult to accelerate Right Start. It's a great program. But I didn't feel like we were losing math quality or rigor by moving to Singapore, whereas I don't think Singapore would have served us nearly as well for the first grade level.

[2squared]

One thing you mentioned is that your 4th grader is a year "behind" in RS. (And I realize that it isn't really behind.) So did you take more than one year to get through a level, then?

 

I ask because yesterday I looked up the Level C table of contents and saw that there were 150 lessons. I was a little disheartened to see that because we take two full days to get through each lesson in Level B. Even doing that takes about 20-30 minutes/day, with the average probably being 25 or 30. I think it would feel a lot to both my daughter and me if we were to do an entire lesson in a day. Granted, we do ALL the review questions, etc. - but my question is whether or not you typically do a full lesson per day in Levels C and D?

 

Again, thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me - I sincerely appreciate it!! :)

 

Yes, we have taken more than a year to get through almost all the levels. I have had a baby or a toddler every year since we started homeschooling, and this is our first year without any significant breaks.

 

When my oldest was in Level B, I quickly figured out that we would do better with setting a set time for math each day rather than measuring progress in page numbers. She started at 20 min/lesson in B, and she is now at 30 min/lesson in D. She does better with shorter, intense lessons. When I push to get through a lesson, I do it to serve me and my box-checking needs. Just this morning I read something by Dr. Cotter that said new concepts need up to 2 weeks to ferment in the brain. I think this is true of my dd.

 

My #2, however, is an advanced math brain. I'm keeping him in RS and just moving through the lessons more quickly and allowing him more frequent math breaks just because he's a 7yo boy. He likes to sit in on dd's D lessons.

 

Now, going back to you and taking 2 days/lesson in RS B. We were at that pace for quite a while. I found that the lessons in C and D aren't as intense as B so that we were able to complete a full lesson on many days. Sometimes we even *gasp* covered more than one lesson in 30 minutes. However, we just hit a patch in D that we are needing to move slower again. But, you know, that's OK. At least I can see that we need to slow down, and RS has taught me enough teacher tricks that I can regroup and teach from multiple approaches.

 

I hope I'm not pushing you into RS. I just hoped you wouldn't jump ship because everyone else seems to jump at this point. We all have different needs and desires, and it seems like RS, Singapore, and MM offer somewhat similar paths at this juncture. Your critiques of Singapore and MM resonated with me, so I wanted to provide our experience as an alternate viewpoint.

[Heather R]

We used RS B (slowly in kindergarten, and then at a quicker pace in grade 1). I am now doing RS A with my son. I switched my daughter to MM. We started in 2A. My biggest regret is that I did not skip much of A with dd. We only did every other problem, but even so, she went from loving math to hating it. Tears and drama most days. I see in hindsight that it was boredom. Now, even though the material is at the right level, this dread of math has continued. She dislikes the format of the pages, thinks the "jokes" are lame, just is generally miserable when it comes to math.

 

I wish we had stuck with RS... I switched because I wanted something with less direct teacher time, but the truth is, I have to sit RIGHT THERE with MM or she does not do the work. I miss being told to play games at certain points, etc. She misses the challenge of RS (though she did not think of it as challenging).

 

If I was doing it again, I would stick with RS through Level C, and then switch to Beast Academy. I am now planning to switch DD to BA after we finish MM 2B, and I hope it will help both of us get over our "math fatigue".

 

Hopefully by the time DS is entering second grade, BA 2 will be available, though it might be nip and tuck.

Heather

[Crimson Wife]

Just out of curiosity, why are you planning to do at least the first part of RS Level C? Is there something in there that is particularly good or helpful?

 

I so appreciate your input!! :)

 

I like the subtraction section in C. I don't care as much for the drawing section or the later part of the book. Looking at the TOC quickly, I think I'll probably stop at the mid-year test.

 

I already own level C, so it's not a big deal in using just part of it. However, if I had to buy it, I'm not sure that it's worth paying $$$ only to do fewer than half of the lessons.

[LynnG in Arizona]

Yes, we have taken more than a year to get through almost all the levels. I have had a baby or a toddler every year since we started homeschooling, and this is our first year without any significant breaks.

 

When my oldest was in Level B, I quickly figured out that we would do better with setting a set time for math each day rather than measuring progress in page numbers. She started at 20 min/lesson in B, and she is now at 30 min/lesson in D. She does better with shorter, intense lessons. When I push to get through a lesson, I do it to serve me and my box-checking needs. Just this morning I read something by Dr. Cotter that said new concepts need up to 2 weeks to ferment in the brain. I think this is true of my dd.

 

My #2, however, is an advanced math brain. I'm keeping him in RS and just moving through the lessons more quickly and allowing him more frequent math breaks just because he's a 7yo boy. He likes to sit in on dd's D lessons.

 

Now, going back to you and taking 2 days/lesson in RS B. We were at that pace for quite a while. I found that the lessons in C and D aren't as intense as B so that we were able to complete a full lesson on many days. Sometimes we even *gasp* covered more than one lesson in 30 minutes. However, we just hit a patch in D that we are needing to move slower again. But, you know, that's OK. At least I can see that we need to slow down, and RS has taught me enough teacher tricks that I can regroup and teach from multiple approaches.

 

I hope I'm not pushing you into RS. I just hoped you wouldn't jump ship because everyone else seems to jump at this point. We all have different needs and desires, and it seems like RS, Singapore, and MM offer somewhat similar paths at this juncture. Your critiques of Singapore and MM resonated with me, so I wanted to provide our experience as an alternate viewpoint.

 

Jennifer, you're not pushing me . . . you're blessing me by taking the time to discuss your experience. Thank you for doing so, because I know your time is precious (ditto to the other ladies who have responded as well!).

 

I really, really appreciate your comments, and I am considering them very carefully. I have a very difficult decision to make - and you have given me a lot to think about! :)

[LynnG in Arizona]

We used RS B (slowly in kindergarten, and then at a quicker pace in grade 1). I am now doing RS A with my son. I switched my daughter to MM. We started in 2A. My biggest regret is that I did not skip much of A with dd. We only did every other problem, but even so, she went from loving math to hating it. Tears and drama most days. I see in hindsight that it was boredom. Now, even though the material is at the right level, this dread of math has continued. She dislikes the format of the pages, thinks the "jokes" are lame, just is generally miserable when it comes to math.

 

I wish we had stuck with RS... I switched because I wanted something with less direct teacher time, but the truth is, I have to sit RIGHT THERE with MM or she does not do the work. I miss being told to play games at certain points, etc. She misses the challenge of RS (though she did not think of it as challenging).

 

If I was doing it again, I would stick with RS through Level C, and then switch to Beast Academy. I am now planning to switch DD to BA after we finish MM 2B, and I hope it will help both of us get over our "math fatigue".

 

Hopefully by the time DS is entering second grade, BA 2 will be available, though it might be nip and tuck.

Heather

 

I am really sorry to hear that the switch to MM turned out to be so negative for you and your daughter! :( That just sums up my worst math fear - of switching when I really shouldn't, or *not* switching when I really should.

 

I am not familiar with Beast Academy and am semi-scared of looking into another program! ;) But I truly find you find the right fit for your daughter.

[LynnG in Arizona]

I like the subtraction section in C. I don't care as much for the drawing section or the later part of the book. Looking at the TOC quickly, I think I'll probably stop at the mid-year test.

 

I already own level C, so it's not a big deal in using just part of it. However, if I had to buy it, I'm not sure that it's worth paying $$$ only to do fewer than half of the lessons.

 

 

Ok, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. :)