NotAVampireLvr Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 We're working through Singapore Math 3a. We're currently working on double digit addition, which he can already do on his own easily. We're hitting roadblocks getting him to think it out the Singapore way. How much should I push on this? He can fly through doing it his method or I can spend an hour explaining three problems the Singapore way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
go_go_gadget Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Do you mean he can do it on paper quite quickly, or that he can do it in his head quite quickly? If he can do it in his head quickly, easily, and without error, I'd explain the SM method of thinking about it and then move on, perhaps revisiting it once in a while but not pushing it. If he can only do it with the pencil-and-paper algorithm, then I'd spend more time on the SM method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAVampireLvr Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 He can do it in his head, but I have no idea how he gets it. He's not using pencil/paper and is getting frustrated when I ask him to write it out. His dad is the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAVampireLvr Posted March 11, 2012 Author Share Posted March 11, 2012 bump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairProspects Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Is he re-grouping and breaking apart tens in his head? My ds will do that sometimes. If he is I would let it go, if not I might see if I could get him to do it on paper to show you what he is doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 He can do it in his head, but I have no idea how he gets it. Bad sign. He's not using pencil/paper and is getting frustrated when I ask him to write it out. Another bad sign. Someone said: think clearly, express clearly. As for Singapore, there is no a separate Singapore "method" that it's OK not to understand and at the same time to understand another way, at least not for two digit addition. All roads lead to Rome. Take a different book for the same topic if it's still no go. It's better to have at least four five books. Then come back to SM 3A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serendipitous journey Posted March 11, 2012 Share Posted March 11, 2012 Bad sign. Another bad sign. Someone said: think clearly, express clearly. I sort of disagree ... Button could do 2-digit addition quickly in his head, and forcing him to break it down to regrouping actually completely stalled his mental math. He still isn't where he used to be, but we're working on it. I think for children of this age, being able to articulate strategy isn't related to computational skill. That said, they need to learn regrouping eventually. With Button, we just did 2 or 3 problems each day, slowly and carefully, until he got the hang of it. We used grid paper 'cause he was quite young. But if I were doing it again, I'd have him always calculate the answer mentally first, then "check" it with the regrouping, to maintain the mental skill. also :bigear: ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I never teach my kids mental math. I view this as a ability that they has to develop themselves rather than been taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAVampireLvr Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 Bad sign. Another bad sign. Someone said: think clearly, express clearly. As for Singapore, there is no a separate Singapore "method" that it's OK not to understand and at the same time to understand another way, at least not for two digit addition. All roads lead to Rome. Take a different book for the same topic if it's still no go. It's better to have at least four five books. Then come back to SM 3A. I assume he's doing some sort of regrouping... he's lightening fast - its not like its taking forever to do each problem. He has odd ways of doing things. For example, when I asked him one day what 22 - 7 was, without skipping a beat he said: Well 7+7+7=21. Two 7's equal 14. And then I have to add the extra 2 back in. So 23-7 = 16. Admittedly I think part of this was just him being goofy. But THAT is why I'm asking my question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Sounds like my oldest. I wouldn't worry too much if he's accurate and relatively quick. I would intermittantly ask if he can explain, although this often takes more mature thinking than actually doing the math. I would also intermittantly show him "another way" whether it be the Singapore method or how to do it on paper, or any other way you want to demonstrate. I don't force the kids to do it my way, if they are doing it accurately, but I keep showing them if I think they need to be show another way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I assume he's doing some sort of regrouping... he's lightening fast - its not like its taking forever to do each problem. If he's fast and accurate, I wouldn't worry about it. Try him on 3 digit numbers. Practice how much to make 100/1000. Does he do as well with subtraction? Have him practice the pen and paper problem with numbers to large to mentally manipulate, or columns of numbers if he balks. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Sounds like my oldest. I wouldn't worry too much if he's accurate and relatively quick. I would intermittantly ask if he can explain, although this often takes more mature thinking than actually doing the math. I would also intermittantly show him "another way" whether it be the Singapore method or how to do it on paper, or any other way you want to demonstrate. I don't force the kids to do it my way, if they are doing it accurately, but I keep showing them if I think they need to be show another way. :iagree: I had to work with my son to get him able to explain his thought process. You need to demonstrate how to explain it, and then they might be able to figure out how they did it. So I would say, "That's right! This is how I did it... <xyz>... Is that how you did it, or did you have another method?" That helped him to understand how to explain it. All reasonably fast and accurate methods are acceptable around here though. Singapore shows multiple methods, but I don't think they intend for a child to only use one specific method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 I sort of disagree ... Button could do 2-digit addition quickly in his head, and forcing him to break it down to regrouping actually completely stalled his mental matth. There is no academic value in doing calculations mentally and not being able to explain. Analogy: read aloud with no comprehension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) There is no academic value in doing calculations mentally and not being able to explain. Analogy: read aloud with no comprehension. I disagree. It doesn't mean that the student doesn't "comprehend" the math, just because he can't explain it. I think learning how to explain the math is a different skill than doing the the math. It may be that I come from the perspective of kids gifted in math with language disorders. My oldest is brilliant at math but is just beginning to be able to explain it. He "sees" math and does proofs of things never exposed to before - that is he lays in bed "thinking" about math and then comes to me and says that he just proved xyz. When exposed to most tough problems, he spits out an answer very quickly. Sometimes I'm slow to figure it out and he has to struggle to figure out how to explain it. Edited March 12, 2012 by Julie of KY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 There is no academic value in doing calculations mentally and not being able to explain. Analogy: read aloud with no comprehension.But we're talking here about kids with brains that "get" math. My eldest taught herself to read at 2, and by 4 was reading at about an 8th grade level. But she is a sight reader. Should I have stuck her in a phonics program at 5 because she hadn't memorized the phonemes and thereby wasn't reading properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie of KY Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 There is no academic value in doing calculations mentally and not being able to explain. Analogy: read aloud with no comprehension. Is there no value in driving a car if I can't explain how the car works? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 Is there no value in driving a car if I can't explain how the car works? I think it is important to understand how a mathematical engine works, so to speak, but I would argue that a technique for rapid mental calculation need not be taken apart conceptually if it works, especially if the child otherwise demonstrates a mastery of concepts. It might prove a useful exercise to attempt to describe and refine the technique into a generalized procedure, but not something I would make mandatory for the right to use it on a day-to-day basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) My ds does all of SM4b in his head, but I make him explain how he does it. Because of his inclination, I have taught him mental math language in the past few months, which has really helped both his explanations and his strategies. Things like: front-end addition, friendly numbers, stepping stones, doubles, compensation, etc. I am also teaching him to decide WHEN it is faster or more accurate to do the problems on paper, or when it is somewhere in between and you need to make "notes to the brain" on paper but still do the rest in your head. At some point in math, you need to explain your workings; as math gets harder, you need to show more work. Verbal explanations help structure thinking about numbers, just like oral narrations help structure thinking about literature. But remember that it is a slow process for children who calculate lightening fast to then describe what they have done. I use empty number lines with "hops" and "stepping stones" and draw out his mental processes as he describes it to me. This has worked wonders in clarifying in his own mind what he has done. And it has helped me to guide him to try different strategies depending on the situation. Sometimes what he does is very convoluted, other times it is efficient. I show him the difference using our mental math diagrams. I suppose this is kind of like diagramming a poorly written sentence. In both of these situations, the visual image is a very effective teaching tool. Ruth in NZ Edited March 12, 2012 by lewelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted March 12, 2012 Share Posted March 12, 2012 There is no academic value in doing calculations mentally and not being able to explain. Analogy: read aloud with no comprehension. Just because a kid do not do reqrouping doesn't mean not understanding math. reqrouping simply try to help kids calculate faster. For naturally mathy kids. There is just no point to force it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotAVampireLvr Posted March 12, 2012 Author Share Posted March 12, 2012 everyone's responses have been very interesting to read. We're finishing up this lesson and moving on to take a break from it. I'm sure we'll be coming back to this topic again at some point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nov05mama Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 At this age, I am in the camp of "as long as you can explain HOW you did it, I don't actually care what method"...for NOW anyway. We go through the Singapore method and 99% of the time, it's how he solves problems, but there are times when he does something more 'random' like the problem you stated. He still GOT the right answer...doesn't make his thought process 'wrong'...even if he can't fully explain it. I can tell you, I came to HATE math in school b/c of a evil little thing called PROOFS ;) It was offensive to me :lol: WHY did I have to explain HOW I got the answer if I obviously GOT the right answer. I understand the reasoning behind it, but I can tell you it still made me NUTS...so I feel his pain a bit ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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