Writing With Skill question, please?

[dancer67]

I see the sticky note above and tried to read the million pages that have been written.

 

I have an upcoming 8th grader. I want to make sure she has the tools to be able to write effectively for college(in case she goes to college). As I wrote on the high school board, I have a 19 yo daughter who went to public school for high school, and had to write a thesis paper and she cried and had no idea what to do, how to write it. When she did finally write the paper, it was so disorganized.

 

I do not want that to happen to my 13 yo.

 

I LOVE the looks of WWS. Especially the summarizing(which is asked all the time in college) and outlining. Can I use the future 3 levels of WWS for grades 9, 10, and 11 and then use another program(not sure what) for her senior year, and have her be comfortable writing college level essays and research papers? It says 5th and "up".

 

I know SWB is coming out with another writing program for high school, but it will not be ready in time for my upcoming 8th grader.

 

Are any of you using WWS for your 8th grader and planning on using the rest of the series for high school, as a stand alone writing program?

 

After looking at the sample, I can't believe a 5th grader could do it. But I guess there are. I had a hard time with the samples myself!

 

I have been told that IEW is very good also. I am familiar with the program, but I really, really like WWS much much better.

 

Thoughts?

[Maverick_Mom]

Here is one of SWB's posts in this thread, in which she mentions that she is using this with her 9th grader:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3059168&postcount=6

[HSMom2One]

My 7th grader is using WWS1 this year and we will go through the series each year until she is a sophomore and completes it. I know we aren't the only ones in this age bracket on the boards here that is doing the same. The goal is to improve writing skills for rhetoric stage and college.

 

Blessings,

Lucinda

[3browneyedboys4me]

I'm planning on using it next year with my 8th grader. I think it would be fine.

 

 

Good luck!

[lewelma]

Can I use the future 3 levels of WWS for grades 9, 10, and 11 and then use another program(not sure what) for her senior year, and have her be comfortable writing college level essays and research papers?

 

The short answer is NO.

 

SWB designed WWS to help students develop skills in the "bricks" that would then be used to write persuasive essays and research reports. The brick include things like narratives, descriptions, and summaries; but WWS does not delve into high school level writing (persuasive, research reports). You can definitely improve a student's ability to write the "bricks" using WWS while **concurrently** having the students use the "bricks" to write more advanced writing. But you cannot have them just focus on the "bricks" from 9th to 11th and not do any advanced writing until 12th grade. One year is just not enough time to develop confidence in advanced writing.

 

I definitely think that WWS can help an 8th grader improve certain pieces of the writing methodology, and you will notice on the K-8 Writing Workshop WWS example thread that older students typically write more advanced examples of each exercise than younger students do. To advance WWS for an older child, you can easily do 2 level outlines instead of 1 level outlines, and you could have your student summarize the book she is reading instead of the given passage. You can also easily advance the topos by having your student work with a slant or even with a thesis. But it depends on your own skill in guiding writing.

 

What I would suggest to you is that if you really like WWS, use it. It will definitely help improve your child's writing. But I would recommend working on high school writing concurrently with WWS starting in 9th. Buy the $8 book, The Lively Art of Writing, and work on developing a thesis and support. Have her do 1 persuasive piece of writing every 2 weeks while doing WWS. Then, come 10th grade, start in with research writing. If you do not know how to teach this, then get a curriculum or just a reference for your self. Have her write a research report every month while also doing WWS.

 

If you have not bought and listened to SWB's High School Writing Lecture, do this. It is well worth the $3 or whatever. She lists what a high schooler should be able to do. Make sure that your student can achieve these standards, either by using a curriculum or by teaching her yourself.

 

Also, I have found The Lost Tools of Writing to be an excellent curriculum for developing the ability to think and write. I plan to use it (condensed) concurrently with WWS in 8th and 9th grade.

 

Good Luck,

 

Ruth in NZ

[dancer67]

hmmmmm.............okay. Well, I am kind of dissapointed SWB doesn't have her high school program ready yet...waaaaaahhhhh:confused:

 

Ok off to start a new thread on another writing program. Thank you for the info.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Ruth, when I looked on Amazon for The Lively Art of Writing there were multiple volumes/editions. Which do you recommend, or is there another site with more info? Thanks!

[Amy in CO]

Personally, I feel that if your child is lacking in the skills, or bricks, that WWS teaches, use the book to teach them. In the linked answer above, from SWB, she says that even if a student had just gotten through 4 levels of WWS, they would be prepared for freshman comp in college.

 

You can't expect a child to write essays just because they are high school age and should be doing that now. Nor can you rush them through 2 programs at once, WWS and another for essays, to play catch up. If they aren't ready, they aren't ready. And rushing through programs isn't going to help.

 

However, you have to understand what your child is actually capable of. For example, I would have loved to have my oldest go through the WWS books, but she is in 11th grade, and the amount of time it would take would not be a good pay off for her, and she would only be able to get through 2 levels. But since we definitely missed some of the bricks with her, I am condensing the ideas found in WWS, and working with her on those skills, with the essays that she is writing. She is older and can handle that.

 

I started my 7th grade son on WWS this year, and he will be going through the program for 4 years. His last year with WWS he will be in 10th and I intend to add in Rulebooks for Arguments that year, as suggested by SWB in that long thread. Followed by other rhetoric books in 11th and 12th.

[Colleen in NS]

I LOVE the looks of WWS. Especially the summarizing(which is asked all the time in college) and outlining. Can I use the future 3 levels of WWS for grades 9, 10, and 11 and then use another program(not sure what) for her senior year, and have her be comfortable writing college level essays and research papers?

 

I say "yes," esp. since you love the look of WWS - obviously it will be something you will enjoy using to teach her.

 

Also...

 

Here is one of SWB's posts in this thread, in which she mentions that she is using this with her 9th grader:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3059168&postcount=6

 

...in addition, there's this post where SWB lays out exactly HOW to do what you've asked about, OP: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3187803&postcount=138

 

Also, skim through that thread again. This time, just read what SWB is writing to individuals - you'll get a better picture of just what your options are for using WWS for four years and then doing a rhetoric study. Also, read what Janice in NJ has to say.

 

But you cannot have them just focus on the "bricks" from 9th to 11th and not do any advanced writing until 12th grade. One year is just not enough time to develop confidence in advanced writing.

 

On the other hand, if the student *needs* to just spend time on "bricks," it's better to do that than to try and do two different curriculums concurrently.

 

She lists what a high schooler should be able to do. Make sure that your student can achieve these standards, either by using a curriculum or by teaching her yourself.

 

I would word this differently. She outlines a program of study for a high schooler who has already developed logic stage writing skills. I don't think there is any "should" about it. The only should I've ever really picked up from her is that, at the very least, a 12th grader should be able to outline a passage and rewrite from that outline. I suspect many classically educated kids will go beyond that, but her point was that if a 12th grader can do this, that kid will be able to learn more advanced writing skills in college, easily.

 

:confused:

 

Be confused no more! Just go have a look at what SWB says in that thread. Janice, too. They both make it simple.

 

Personally, I feel that if your child is lacking in the skills, or bricks, that WWS teaches, use the book to teach them. In the linked answer above, from SWB, she says that even if a student had just gotten through 4 levels of WWS, they would be prepared for freshman comp in college.

 

You can't expect a child to write essays just because they are high school age and should be doing that now. Nor can you rush them through 2 programs at once, WWS and another for essays, to play catch up. If they aren't ready, they aren't ready. And rushing through programs isn't going to help.

 

However, you have to understand what your child is actually capable of. For example, I would have loved to have my oldest go through the WWS books, but she is in 11th grade, and the amount of time it would take would not be a good pay off for her, and she would only be able to get through 2 levels. But since we definitely missed some of the bricks with her, I am condensing the ideas found in WWS, and working with her on those skills, with the essays that she is writing. She is older and can handle that.

 

:iagree: And my 14yos is using it right now. I'm not sure yet what we'll do next year, but I am toying with his continuing WWS, and then experimenting with using Rulebook concurrently....or just WWS and going into Kane's book later, concurrently or after he's done WWS. Some sort of plan like that - but after reading SWB's and Janice's advice in that thread, I understand how those other books work now and how I could fit them in concurrently or after WWS.

[lewelma]

dancer67,

 

Perhaps, we should all ask where your dd is in her writing skill before answering your question. No where in your original post did you mention that she was not writing at "grade level."

 

If she needs to learn logic-stage writing skills, then WWS would be excellent. However, if she is past that and needs to learn high-school level writing skills, there are other programs that would better prepare her to "be comfortable writing college level essays and research papers." There is also the possibility that she could go at double speed through WWS1 because she needs the skills but that at her age they would not take a year to understand. The problem is that the other WWS books are not out (which is why I was suggesting an additional curriculum like LToW to supplement).

 

Finally, most of us who are using WWS are doing additional "writing across the curriculum" in addition to the WWS assignments. For your dd, this additional writing could be done at a higher level that WWS -- more persuasive or with a research component, even if you do not use an additional curriculum besides WWS.

 

HTH

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited March 9, 2012 by lewelma

[elegantlion]

I'm using WWS for ds. It's absolutely the perfect fit for where he is, which is a bit delayed. It's the one program that has worked as written out of the numerous ones we've tried. We will complete most of it this year and finish it next year. I will use WWS2 for sure, and then see if we can move higher. If not we'll supplement as recommended by SWB in the other posts and continue on with the WWS series.

 

WWS does not feel babyish for an 8th grader. We used WWE 3 last year and the story selections were geared for younger kids. The writing instruction was perfect for ds, but he wasn't as excited about the stories. WWS, however, has worked well.