MorganClassicalPrep Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I've alluded a few times on the board and in PMs with some of you that I've been dealing with some personal struggles regarding my faith. I'm still struggling with finding a church. (Is there a Christian church with room for a socially liberal, non-evangelical, liturgy-loving, slight deist-leaning me? :D:tongue_smilie:) But ANYWAYS! I'd really like to talk to/hear from other Christians who believe in evolution. How does this belief combine with your Christian beliefs? Here's what I know. I believe in evolution, but don't necessarily believe in the big bang theory, and (obviously) definitely don't believe in a literal creation story. What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? I know this is a really controversial topic, and I'm asking, please not to turn this into an argument and closed thread. I'm seriously struggling with this, and finding that this issue is hindering me in finding a church-home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 You sound like an Episcopalian to me. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirstenH Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm Catholic, and we're okay with evolution. We also have beautiful liturgy if you find the right parish. Socially liberal? Not so much (although this can vary to some degree by parish, the Church leadership is very traditional and always will be). I will say that even before I converted to Catholicism, I was at odds with my Bible Church in that they were YE Creationists and I've been science-obsessed since toddlerhood. I never really considered the Big Bang or evolution to be at odds with scripture, so long the creation stories are not taken as literal blow-by-blow retellings. One of the things that attracted me to Catholicism was its openness to secular scientific study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeaganS Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? IMO, nothing is wrong with that, as that is pretty much how I look at it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 You sound like an Episcopalian to me. :001_smile: That or a liberal Methodist. (Of which there are plenty. :) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeckyFL Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I don't believe in evolution. It just makes no sense at all to me and I really think it takes way more faith to believe that than it does to believe in a Genesis creation. I also believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. That being said, I think you'll find that there are others who have faith in God and yet believe in evolution and/or the big bang. I'm guessing there may be people in many churches who believe that way and may or may not share their beliefs with others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutor Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (Is there a Christian church with room for a socially liberal, non-evangelical, liturgy-loving, slight deist-leaning me? :D:tongue_smilie:) I don't know, but if you find it, let me know. I'd like to join! :D (Is it okay that I am more libertarian anarchist leaning, though?) As to the evolution thing... I'm a creationist but not YE (at least not 10,000 years young), but I'm not sold on the evolution thing scientifically (fwiw, my educational/ thesis background is in molecular biology/ evolutionary genetics/ forensic science, so it's not lack of info, just lack of testability). So, basically, being someone who is comfortable arguing either, both, or none and willing to admit that, ultimately, I don't know and am okay with that means I don't fit in anywhere... religiously or scientifically. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raesrose Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Have you looked into Unitarian Universalism? They are open to just about anything, and you can still be as Christian as you want. You just may be surrounded by 500 other beliefs too. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 You sound like an Episcopalian to me. :001_smile: :iagree: I'm going to end up Episcopal one of these days. Logistics and the spiritual needs of other family members keep getting in the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think it might be best to look at where you know you won't fit in. Depending on where you live geographically you may find more who don't really care or will accept many different opinions on the subject. I think that many (most??) Christian traditions do not make a stand on this...but there are some who do and they can be quite vocal. As far as I can tell, in my tradition (Eastern Orthodox) we have no official stand on it. My daughter (who is a priest's wife) is a theistic evolutionist, I am more of an old-earth small evolution (within species) Christian. I'm sure there are 24/7 creationist within our tradition, I'm just unaware of them. It's just not something we really talk about much (except on the internet ;) ). If the liturgy is important you might be better off looking first for a church embraces that since that is getting more and more rare - especially in Protestant circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 You sound like an Episcopalian to me. :001_smile: :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mama Geek Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 That or a liberal Methodist. (Of which there are plenty. :) ) Or a liberal Lutheran...look up ELCA. Some are more liberal and some are less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-rap Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Depending on where you live geographically you may find more who don't really care or will accept many different opinions on the subject. I think that many (most??) Christian traditions do not make a stand on this...but there are some who do and they can be quite vocal. We support the OE theory and forms of evolution, but really -- whatever it is -- it does not matter so much to me. We actually attend a Baptist church, but do not feel uncomfortable with our belief in OE, there. It happens to be a very committed, healthy congregation that is open to different interpretations. I don't believe you can ignore scientific evidence. I believe science and Christianity do not oppose each other at all, but will -- over time -- reveal the same truths. I like this quote: "It is the God-intended meaning of Scripture as expressed in the Spirit-inspired words that is inerrant, and not some other meaning that anybody thinks the words convey." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Have you looked into Unitarian Universalism? They are open to just about anything, and you can still be as Christian as you want. You just may be surrounded by 500 other beliefs too. :) I always :001_huh: when I see this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I always :001_huh: when I see this. Yes, I think we can all agree that Unitarian Universalism is not a good fit for you. ;) Actually, I wouldn't recommend it to the OP either, but that's because I don't think UU services are as liturgical as the OP is looking for, based on her post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 As far as I can tell, in my tradition (Eastern Orthodox) we have no official stand on it. My daughter (who is a priest's wife) is a theistic evolutionist, I am more of an old-earth small evolution (within species) Christian. I'm sure there are 24/7 creationist within our tradition, I'm just unaware of them. It's just not something we really talk about much (except on the internet ;) ). This has been my experience as well. In the 3+ years since we began attending an Eastern Orthodox church, even as we went through catechism before our conversion/baptism, the issue of the creation was never mentioned in a dogmatic way. As with many things in Orthodoxy, I think the understanding is that how the creation came about is ultimately a mystery and mystery is okay. Everything doesn't have to be spelled out and clearly understood for faith to exist. As for liturgy, I find the liturgy in Orthodoxy so beautiful. I regret that I was in my 40s before I ever attended a liturgical church. Best to you in your search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scuff Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I've alluded a few times on the board and in PMs with some of you that I've been dealing with some personal struggles regarding my faith. I'm still struggling with finding a church. (Is there a Christian church with room for a socially liberal, non-evangelical, liturgy-loving, slight deist-leaning me? :D:tongue_smilie:) But ANYWAYS! I'd really like to talk to/hear from other Christians who believe in evolution. How does this belief combine with your Christian beliefs? Here's what I know. I believe in evolution, but don't necessarily believe in the big bang theory, and (obviously) definitely don't believe in a literal creation story. What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? I know this is a really controversial topic, and I'm asking, please not to turn this into an argument and closed thread. I'm seriously struggling with this, and finding that this issue is hindering me in finding a church-home. We're currently in a church that's not 100% wonderful. We went churchless for quite a while (8yrs) before deciding we just needed to go someplace. So, while this place is far from perfect, it fits a few things we decided we had to have. :grouphug: It is a hard place to be. As to your question: What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? (first, let me say, I'm not heated or angry or anything towards you and this topic. I struggled with it mysel for a good part of my life. It's ok if we disagree.) there are a fw problems with a creator setting things up this way. First, he said "it is good" when he made stuff. An imperfect, incomplete creature doesn't really fit this. But the main reason is that it puts death before the fall. Theologically, death came from sin. Then Christ's death paid for that and gives us salvation. With evolution, death is a part of the process. It's not a consequrnce of sin, but a part of creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LisaKinVA Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 We're currently in a church that's not 100% wonderful. We went churchless for quite a while (8yrs) before deciding we just needed to go someplace. So, while this place is far from perfect, it fits a few things we decided we had to have. :grouphug: It is a hard place to be. As to your question: What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? (first, let me say, I'm not heated or angry or anything towards you and this topic. I struggled with it mysel for a good part of my life. It's ok if we disagree.) there are a fw problems with a creator setting things up this way. First, he said "it is good" when he made stuff. An imperfect, incomplete creature doesn't really fit this. But the main reason is that it puts death before the fall. Theologically, death came from sin. Then Christ's death paid for that and gives us salvation. With evolution, death is a part of the process. It's not a consequrnce of sin, but a part of creation. That's assuming he meant "death' in the physical sense...and not in the spiritual/separation from God sense... I'm still reading on this part...but I also don't have an issue with the idea of a 2nd "special" creation of Adam and Eve...that took place 10,000 years ago...but again, I'm still reading on these topics, so please don't ask me to explain too much ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda in TX Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 As a Christian, I don't really care what people believe about evolution. It's not a salvation issue, and I don't believe either side has it all right. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 As a Christian, I don't really care what people believe about evolution. It's not a salvation issue, and I don't believe either side has it all right. :) Amen and AMEN! I'm open to different things regarding this. I could probably figure out what I believe IF I wanted to put the time/effort/energy into it. But I don't. I so don't. I believe God created the world and I don't care how he did it or when he did it. It has no bearing on how we are to live today. After moving here, we've been church-shopping for quite awhile- I haven't heard anyone at any church even mention it. I'm really glad of that- if the pastor is spending time teaching/preaching about that, he's not taking the time to address important issues. (I'd define important issues as those pertaining to salvation, how we are to live and act, and how we are to treat other people) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I've alluded a few times on the board and in PMs with some of you that I've been dealing with some personal struggles regarding my faith. I'm still struggling with finding a church. (Is there a Christian church with room for a socially liberal, non-evangelical, liturgy-loving, slight deist-leaning me? :D:tongue_smilie:) But ANYWAYS! I'd really like to talk to/hear from other Christians who believe in evolution. How does this belief combine with your Christian beliefs? Here's what I know. I believe in evolution, but don't necessarily believe in the big bang theory, and (obviously) definitely don't believe in a literal creation story. What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? I know this is a really controversial topic, and I'm asking, please not to turn this into an argument and closed thread. I'm seriously struggling with this, and finding that this issue is hindering me in finding a church-home. several come to mind, United Church of Christ being first and foremost. in many denominations, how liturgical a service is depends on the clergy, although different denominations have different bents generally. on evolution: for us, its not a matter of belief, its a matter of research. in all the reading, studying, researching we've done, the theory of evolution does the best job of accounting for what we know now. having to "believe" in God or "believe in evolution" is for us a false dichotomy. as my sainted mother would say, "God gave us brains with the intention that we use them". when we make new discoveries, for us it all points back to the wonder of God's creation. in the united church of canada, the creed begins, "We are not alone, we live in God's world. We believe in God: who has created and is creating," i really do believe that the world is still unfolding, and it is all the more wondrous for that. wishing you joy, ann eta: you may want to check out this website on progressive Christianity http://www.tcpc.org/template/index.cfm and much of the work on the emergent church points in the direction you are heading, too : ) Edited March 9, 2012 by elfgivas@yahoo.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHomeScientist Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Have you looked into Unitarian Universalism? They are open to just about anything, and you can still be as Christian as you want. You just may be surrounded by 500 other beliefs too. :) Twenty years ago one of my co-workers, who was Unitarian Universalist, was getting married. They held the reception at the church, and the minister walked up to me and invited me to attend services. "I'm an atheist," I replied. "That's okay," she said, "we have lots of atheist members." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm Catholic, and we're okay with evolution. We also have beautiful liturgy if you find the right parish. Socially liberal? Not so much (although this can vary to some degree by parish, the Church leadership is very traditional and always will be). I will say that even before I converted to Catholicism, I was at odds with my Bible Church in that they were YE Creationists and I've been science-obsessed since toddlerhood. I never really considered the Big Bang or evolution to be at odds with scripture, so long the creation stories are not taken as literal blow-by-blow retellings. One of the things that attracted me to Catholicism was its openness to secular scientific study. :iagree: yep. ALL of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 As a Christian, I don't really care what people believe about evolution. It's not a salvation issue, and I don't believe either side has it all right. :) Amen!! Totally agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Episcopalian or Methodist. I thoroughly dislike kneeling in heels and a nice suit tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 You sound like an Episcopalian to me. :001_smile: Agreed. That was my thought too. Come to a service, stay for coffee if you like. Coffee hour is the 8th sacrament, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Oh, other thought is Reformed Jewish congregation.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatLight Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I don't really care what people believe about evolution. It's not a salvation issue, and I don't believe either side has it all right. :) Big high five for you on that one :cheers2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 You sound like an Episcopalian to me. :001_smile: :iagree: My first thought too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 As a Christian, I don't really care what people believe about evolution. It's not a salvation issue, and I don't believe either side has it all right. :) :iagree: Ive never understood why this is ever an issue in any church. Thankfully I've never encountered it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I've alluded a few times on the board and in PMs with some of you that I've been dealing with some personal struggles regarding my faith. I'm still struggling with finding a church. (Is there a Christian church with room for a socially liberal, non-evangelical, liturgy-loving, slight deist-leaning me? :D:tongue_smilie:) But ANYWAYS! I'd really like to talk to/hear from other Christians who believe in evolution. How does this belief combine with your Christian beliefs? Here's what I know. I believe in evolution, but don't necessarily believe in the big bang theory, and (obviously) definitely don't believe in a literal creation story. What's wrong with a creator who set up life on Earth, knowing that the earliest life forms would eventually evolve into modern forms (including humans)? I know this is a really controversial topic, and I'm asking, please not to turn this into an argument and closed thread. I'm seriously struggling with this, and finding that this issue is hindering me in finding a church-home. My beliefs on this are always in the process of being tweaked. Fortunately for me, my church doesn't take an official position on what methods God used to create the world, or how long it took. Currently I lean strongly toward a "literal" interpretation of the creation story in which the word "day" is interpreted to mean a non-specific period of time, like "in my grandfather's day", or "in the day of the dinosaur". I've checked, and this is a legitimate use of the Hebrew word in the original. With that understanding, I see the creation of Earth as having taken place over six creative periods of unspecified length. I also see them as having a "morning" and an "evening", meaning a time where that "day" of creation was sort of fading in, then really ramping up, then fading out, so that they blend into each other rather than having a time where it's possible to draw a distinct line between one and the next. To me, this fits the evolutionary time scale nicely, because each "day" of creation could be millions or billions of years long, and they don't necessarily even have to be the same length as each other. Also, to me, "let there be light" is not at all incompatible with either a Big Bang, or with just the explosive beginning of a new sun and the scientific view of the resultant events that would lead to a planet like the Earth. Having the sun and moon "appear" on a later day (I forget the order just now, I have a migraine) could indicate a clearing of the atmosphere such that those heavenly bodies could then be seen from the surface of the planet (which might have been the view from which Moses saw that part of the creation in vision). Dinosaurs could have been part of a lengthy process of creating birds. As for when God pronounced things "good", well, it might have been when each stage of the process arrived at a "checkpoint" where the named items had reached maturity, so to speak, or perhaps just when all of the elements were arranged so that it was inevitable for them to lead where God intended. I don't know. Anyway, I have more musings on the subject, but that's a broad outline of where I stand on it. Ultimately, I don't think it's a salvation issue either, and I knew people at church with a wide range of beliefs on the subject. HTH. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganClassicalPrep Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 I just wanted to thank everyone who took the time to respond. Some of you have given me more to think about. I've been leaning towards visiting an Episcopal church. I've been intending on going but... well, so many things have gotten in the way. Life has finally settled down, and there's finally time to search for a new church. I'm just gun-shy, I don't want to start going to a new church and then feel called to leave again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
livetoread Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 You sound a lot like me when I went church shopping. I ended up at a liberal Presbyterian church that fit exactly at the time, complete with a beautiful liturgical service. I found that denomination means something but really the individual church will have its own flavor. We even have an extremely liberal Southern Baptist church around here - the pastor is a hoot. So I would suggest visiting individual churches rather than limiting based on denominations. Look at websites, look to see who is mentioned in the local paper for which issues etc., and then visit a bunch. As for reconciling Christian belief and evolution, good luck. I know others have managed, but it ended up being a pretty good chunk of why I eventually lost my theistic faith. Couldn't do it without mental gymnastics worthy of an olympic medal and that got old. If you continue to lean deistic and/or you don't think about it too much, you'll be much less exhausted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketgirl Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 Don't feel like you have to label yourself, don't feel like you don't live up to a label.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MorganClassicalPrep Posted March 10, 2012 Author Share Posted March 10, 2012 As for reconciling Christian belief and evolution, good luck. I know others have managed, but it ended up being a pretty good chunk of why I eventually lost my theistic faith. Couldn't do it without mental gymnastics worthy of an olympic medal and that got old. If you continue to lean deistic and/or you don't think about it too much, you'll be much less exhausted! Don't feel like you have to label yourself, don't feel like you don't live up to a label.... I also feel like I am losing my theistic faith quite a bit. Social issues are what have pushed me away (and kept me away) from church, and intellectual (theology..) ideas have made me reluctant to try again. I think a large part of why I feel the need to find a new church is the community aspect. I can worship on my own, but I miss having a church family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsBasil Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 There's a search engine here to help people find progressive Christian groups. http://www.progressivechristianity.org/template/index.cfm :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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