Heart aching for one of my high school seniors. Gobsmacked at her parents.

[ktgrok]

I should have just shut my trap, not vented, and just asked for gap year suggestions without any background.

 

I value everyone's wisdom, but the thread has devolved into arguments about the level of idiocy and irresponsibility of the student and really, however you think of here, it's a moot point. From here, I go forward with here regardless of how she got to this point. I WILL NOT WASH MY HANDS OF HER because she should have known better.

 

I will definitely check out americorps. I'm also working on finding funding ($750.00) for her to get her nurse's aide license. She will only earn $7.50 an hr. that's all that is offered in this county and the surrounding area. But, if she can find a roomate, she may be able to afford a tiny apartment two blocks from the nursing home and work there while gaining some life experience. She won't be able to save any money at minimum wage, but it's a step in the right direction. If she likes that, we'll look for tuition options for getting her EMT license...wages begin at $11.00 and if I found a family in the city that she could live with, she could save some money and take classes at "crappy U".

 

So, let's allow the thread to die off...it's not worth continuing to discuss her faults and I will research the options presented in the earlier threads.

 

Thank you,

Faith

Before it dies off...I'd really suggest an au pair job or americorps over working as a nurses aid locally. If she does nurses aid she will have nothing to show for it at the end. If she does Americorp she will have $5,000 towards college, plus whatever she saves, plus something that looks cool on her application, plus most importantly she will have gotten to experience a part of the world outside her small town. I thinkt hat would be invaluable when attending college.

[flyingiguana]

This is exactly why schools hire guidance counselors. Because there are kids coming from these backgrounds who do need the extra help.

 

This girl may end up more focused on what she wants to do because she was stunted by her environment to begin with and had to work her way out of it. Thank goodness she has someone to give her a helping hand.

[mommaduck]

I agree in theory. I love personal responsibility.

 

If I may, I would like to share another side. Both my parents went to college. My mother went right out of high school with a scholarship for nursing. My father went on the GI bill (served in the Army during the Korean conflict) mostly at night, not right out of high school. Both of them were admitted before SAT or ACT was a factor (1950's and early 1960's). My mother, at least, had to take college entrance exams instead.

 

There was always an expectation that the kids (5 of us) would go to college. There was not, however, any discussion about what it took to get there. I was completely on my own from grade 7 on regarding all things school related. I picked my own classes (skipping math in 9th grade because I had a really crappy algebra experience in 8th), and as long as I was making progress towards a diploma, noone cared or intervened. I knew that there were "guidance counselors" at the high school, but thought they were just for the troubled kids. We were not required to meet with them, and I had no idea that they might have any benefit to me. All around me, I saw that other kids were in advanced classes, participated in extracurricular activities, were National Merit Scholars, but had no earthly idea how these things were done. My home environment was such that passivity was rewarded, especially for girls. (Was envited to accompany a friend to Brownies one afternoon as an eight year old, but forbidden from joining because "girls don't need to learn leadership".)

 

I was desperate and motivated to get out of my home situation, but had no other source of information. As it was, I found out, somehow, very late, that I had to take an exam to get into college (the ACT was the default choice in my area), and took it for the first time in the spring of my senior year. My results were mediocre, due in large part to my slow reading speed. At that time, however, it was enough for an admission to an in-state college.

 

So I took myself off to a university in a town 90 miles away, paying for tuition, books and room and board with money I had saved while working from ages 14-18. My parents contributed *nothing*, nor did I get any type of "aid". Believe me, I realize that that is not even possible now with current college costs.

 

The point being that I didn't even know that there were questions to ask, let alone knowing the right questions, or having any idea of the resources from which to gather information. So while making it the student's own responsibility is a wonderful idea, it does require context. A young person that can buck the system of their environment and first, imagine an outcome wholey outside their day-to-day experience, and second, follow through with a course of actions required to realize that vision, can be, in my opinion, considered an outlier. These things do happen, but not often. It takes a force of personality and will that is not within the range of average.

This was my home experience also. I wasn't allowed to join anything, and if at all it was for only a few months. No guidance. Our school counselor was a joke. I married right out of highschool and have been back to college several times, unable to complete due to family obligations. My brother on that side received every form of assistance imaginable, from flying lessons at 14yrs to his dad paying for his and his girlfriend's apartment through state U.

[Charles Wallace]

Ester, sometimes I think you don't quite grasp the level of lying that goes on in some American schools today.

 

Our American ancestors in one-room schoolhouses, crowded tenement Sunday schools, and homeschools knew they were less educated than other people in the world. The eighth-grade graduate of a pioneer school knew he was less educated than the eastern dude whose daddy could afford college.

 

Our uneducated American children today have no idea how dumb they are. They are told that they're smart, and they're given A's they did not earn. Anything above comatose gets an "attaboy," any effort above cheating is praised. It's all to mollify the parents, keep the government money coming, and feed the beast, and the entire nation is paying the price.

 

I can't emphasize how rare it is for a child sitting in one of these factories for mushy brains to sit up and say, "What the h*ll is going on here? I'm not learning a d*mn thing, and these people around here are even dumber than me. My teacher is lying, my principal is lying, and I know for a fact my test scores are lying." No way. One in ten thousand, maybe.

 

Now, that's what some of us did last generation. And then we tuned out the school people all day and biked to the library to educate ourselves. But we could, you see, because before they stopped teaching us they did bother to teach us to read with phonics. We could read, so we could learn on our own. Our libraries were pretty good 20 years ago, too. Also, they didn't puff us up 20 years ago. They didn't lie to us about our accomplishments. Not like now. And we never, ever, ever got 'participation trophies' in Little League.

 

When we faced the world at 17 or 18 the picture was fairly clear. No matter who was to blame, we understood the score, and we still had the guts to deal with it. I don't think it's the same now.

 

Oh, boy, am I gonna get it tomorrow after some people read this. AuntieM once told me I was a straight-shooter, though, and sometimes I just have to get out the old soapbox and shoot my mouth off. Ugh. Sorry. I think this needs said.

 

It's not happening in ALL schools but it's happening in many. Inner-city, rural, mountain, and even suburban schools have become worse than ineffective. They've become a sham.

 

Edited to add: This post is a little less germane to the conversation than I previously believed, because I totally forgot that Faith's student is part of a class of 11 students at a parochial school. It's almost 2 a.m. though, so I'll let the post stand and come back tomorrow to see which parts of it might matter.

 

 

You're absolutely right. Speaking as a public school teacher, you're absolutely right.

 

I'm not speaking about any specific school in what I'm about to say, of course, nor any specific school system. I only wish I were, though, because then, like a localized cancer, it could be dealt with with laser precision; unfortunately, it is more systemic. How, you ask? The following are true, although identifying details have of course been changed.

 

1. Lake Wobegon Effect Grades

Teachers are increasingly prohibited from giving anything lower than a C. A teacher of my acquaintance was told by a parent during a conference, "I don't want any negative feedback." The administrator present just nodded and smiled in agreement. In effect, this meant that any "negative feedback" was prohibited. The teacher knew that if he were to give less than positive feedback, the parents would call and complain and the administration would support them. So...no negative feedback was given. Everything that student did was wonderful. Of course, that influenced the grades of the other students as well, because the teacher could hardly mark X wrong for an error and not Y. At a completely different school with completely different teachers, if students miss questions on the tests, they can come in the very next day and retake it. The whole test? Oh, no -- just the questions they missed on the test. Not surprisingly, everyone does well on the test...the day after the test review.

 

2. Less is...Well, Less

The increased focus on assessments and "success indicators" like graduation rates has meant that if a teacher is harder than the other teachers, she will feel pressure to conform. This means, in effect, that whoever is setting the bar lowest gets to dictate the difficulty level not just of his own class, but maybe even an entire set of classes throughout a department. Example: A teacher -- Mr. X -- was told to conform to the difficulty level of other teachers because it was believed that he was "too hard." When one of the teachers announced that she was not going to do a research project that year -- despite the fact that this project is mandated by the state standards -- that basically ruled out the possibility of Mr. X doing one either, because, of course, if he obeys the standards and does a research project, he's violating his administrator's directive not to be harder than the others. So, no research paper for the kids this year.

 

3. Eleeetiszm.

Increasingly, the teachers who teach at the public school level have had less and less exposure to the great literature of this part of the globe. A misguided belief that the classic works are inherently elitist, or the covertly racist belief that children of color won't find these works "relevant" has accelerated this problem even more. It is rare now to find an English class at the high school level where the vast majority of the works being read are actually written at the ninth-grade level or above. For instance, in one school theoretically with a classical education focus, what would you imagine the freshmen are reading? The Odyssey? Guess again. The Iliad? Nope, still wrong. Hamilton's Mythology? Nope. Try Percy Jackson. (If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's written at the 3rd or 4th grade reading level.)

 

I could go on. However, I suspect I'm just contributing to the derailment.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Charles Wallace

[Sahamamama]

You're absolutely right. Speaking as a public school teacher, you're absolutely right.

 

I'm not speaking about any specific school in what I'm about to say, of course, nor any specific school system. I only wish I were, though, because then, like a localized cancer, it could be dealt with with laser precision; unfortunately, it is more systemic. How, you ask? The following are true, although identifying details have of course been changed.

 

1. Lake Wobegon Effect Grades

Teachers are increasingly prohibited from giving anything lower than a C. A teacher of my acquaintance was told by a parent during a conference, "I don't want any negative feedback." The administrator present just nodded and smiled in agreement. In effect, this meant that any "negative feedback" was prohibited. The teacher knew that if he were to give less than positive feedback, the parents would call and complain and the administration would support them. So...no negative feedback was given. Everything that student did was wonderful. Of course, that influenced the grades of the other students as well, because the teacher could hardly mark X wrong for an error and not Y. At a completely different school with completely different teachers, if students miss questions on the tests, they can come in the very next day and retake it. The whole test? Oh, no -- just the questions they missed on the test. Not surprisingly, everyone does well on the test...the day after the test review.

 

2. Less is...Well, Less

The increased focus on assessments and "success indicators" like graduation rates has meant that if a teacher is harder than the other teachers, she will feel pressure to conform. This means, in effect, that whoever is setting the bar lowest gets to dictate the difficulty level not just of his own class, but maybe even an entire set of classes throughout a department. Example: A teacher -- Mr. X -- was told to conform to the difficulty level of other teachers because it was believed that he was "too hard." When one of the teachers announced that she was not going to do a research project that year -- despite the fact that this project is mandated by the state standards -- that basically ruled out the possibility of Mr. X doing one either, because, of course, if he obeys the standards and does a research project, he's violating his administrator's directive not to be harder than the others. So, no research paper for the kids this year.

 

3. Eleeetiszm.

Increasingly, the teachers who teach at the public school level have had less and less exposure to the great literature of this part of the globe. A misguided belief that the classic works are inherently elitist, or the covertly racist belief that children of color won't find these works "relevant" has accelerated this problem even more. It is rare now to find an English class at the high school level where the vast majority of the works being read are actually written at the ninth-grade level or above. For instance, in one school theoretically with a classical education focus, what would you imagine the freshmen are reading? The Odyssey? Guess again. The Iliad? Nope, still wrong. Hamilton's Mythology? Nope. Try Percy Jackson. (If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's written at the 3rd or 4th grade reading level.)

 

I could go on. However, I suspect I'm just contributing to the derailment.

 

Charles Wallace, I enjoyed your post.

[creekland]

You're absolutely right. Speaking as a public school teacher, you're absolutely right.

 

I'm not speaking about any specific school in what I'm about to say, of course, nor any specific school system. I only wish I were, though, because then, like a localized cancer, it could be dealt with with laser precision; unfortunately, it is more systemic. How, you ask? The following are true, although identifying details have of course been changed.

 

1. Lake Wobegon Effect Grades

Teachers are increasingly prohibited from giving anything lower than a C. A teacher of my acquaintance was told by a parent during a conference, "I don't want any negative feedback." The administrator present just nodded and smiled in agreement. In effect, this meant that any "negative feedback" was prohibited. The teacher knew that if he were to give less than positive feedback, the parents would call and complain and the administration would support them. So...no negative feedback was given. Everything that student did was wonderful. Of course, that influenced the grades of the other students as well, because the teacher could hardly mark X wrong for an error and not Y. At a completely different school with completely different teachers, if students miss questions on the tests, they can come in the very next day and retake it. The whole test? Oh, no -- just the questions they missed on the test. Not surprisingly, everyone does well on the test...the day after the test review.

 

2. Less is...Well, Less

The increased focus on assessments and "success indicators" like graduation rates has meant that if a teacher is harder than the other teachers, she will feel pressure to conform. This means, in effect, that whoever is setting the bar lowest gets to dictate the difficulty level not just of his own class, but maybe even an entire set of classes throughout a department. Example: A teacher -- Mr. X -- was told to conform to the difficulty level of other teachers because it was believed that he was "too hard." When one of the teachers announced that she was not going to do a research project that year -- despite the fact that this project is mandated by the state standards -- that basically ruled out the possibility of Mr. X doing one either, because, of course, if he obeys the standards and does a research project, he's violating his administrator's directive not to be harder than the others. So, no research paper for the kids this year.

 

3. Eleeetiszm.

Increasingly, the teachers who teach at the public school level have had less and less exposure to the great literature of this part of the globe. A misguided belief that the classic works are inherently elitist, or the covertly racist belief that children of color won't find these works "relevant" has accelerated this problem even more. It is rare now to find an English class at the high school level where the vast majority of the works being read are actually written at the ninth-grade level or above. For instance, in one school theoretically with a classical education focus, what would you imagine the freshmen are reading? The Odyssey? Guess again. The Iliad? Nope, still wrong. Hamilton's Mythology? Nope. Try Percy Jackson. (If I'm not mistaken, I believe that's written at the 3rd or 4th grade reading level.)

 

I could go on. However, I suspect I'm just contributing to the derailment.

 

Feel free to repost this on the spin-off thread. At my school it's eerily similar to those you describe. I had forgotten to mention the retaking of tests/quizzes.

 

My youngest needs to retake a chem quiz from a couple of weeks ago. When I asked him if he was going to do it today, he said no as he hadn't had time to study for it. Granted, he was at the state chess championships helping his team finish 6th over the weekend, but he got home last night with plenty of time to catch up with online friends. In 'my' day I'd have been studying (albeit for the first test as we never had retest options). He thinks nothing of prolonging anything. Why? Because it's standard for the school. We had a discussion about that this morning, but sadly, I think it was just filed under the "mean mom" category rather than the, "wow, mom's probably right concerning college" category.

 

If I didn't think my guy would kill himself (literally) I'd pull him out today. But long ago I convinced myself I'd rather have a live, undereducated son than a dead, highly educated one. It's just frustrating.

[8filltheheart]

Even 25 yrs ago, I quit student teaching b/c of the bureaucracy and being hog-tied vs. being allowed to teach.

 

I had grand visions of what I wanted to teach and how I wanted to teach it. Every activity/lesson I planned that was beyond ditto sheets landed me in hot water. I was continuously reprimanded. The other teachers complained and the principal lectured b/c "students in the various classrooms compare what is occurring in the other classes and the school needs to be homogenous in approach."

 

My few weeks in that building convinced me that I would never be a public school teacher and that no child of mine would ever walk through the door of a public school. We have become focused strictly on leveling the playing field at the expense of anything "great and beautiful."

[katilac]

 

College Confidential is a great one-stop resource. It has checklists and articles about the entire process, along with forums. The forums are really interesting to read.

[TranquilMind]

:iagree:I was that kid. My mother was not at all interested/involved in preparing me for college. I was on my own from middle school on when it came to any type of school issue. I had to apply for everything alone and I paid for everything on my own. I did not go away to college until I was 20. I waited tables until I had enough money to go and then packed my bags and drove myself all the way there alone.

 

I understand the economy is hard, but I'm sure she can find something, even if it isn't the best job. Can she keep babysitting? Become a nanny?

This describes my situation perfectly. My Mom didn't have time to be involved or interested; she was caring for a chronically ill child. I did all of this myself. I got a job, found an apartment (though she did happen upon that one by talking to people at a garage sale), worked nights waiting tables and then applied to college. I was a child of a disabled veteran, so that helped tremendously with college costs. Fortunately, this was pre the "you are a child til you are 26 for financial aid" ridiculousness, so I applied on my own a got some grants too, being an independent adult living on my own.

 

I ended up with 3 degrees. I also obtained early on the very valuable insight that if I did not get an education, I'd be stuck in a dead end job like the one I worked at a bank for a year, before the night job.

 

Don't feel too sorry for that girl whose Mom won't help. It's much better to do it yourself if they can't help. Motivation that is internal is all that ever takes you anywhere anyway.

[HeatherInWI]

I had grand visions of what I wanted to teach and how I wanted to teach it. Every activity/lesson I planned that was beyond ditto sheets landed me in hot water. I was continuously reprimanded. The other teachers complained and the principal lectured b/c "students in the various classrooms compare what is occurring in the other classes and the school needs to be homogenous in approach."

 

Exactly! When I was teaching junior high, there was one year that they needed a teacher for an extra section of literature and assigned it to me (I normally taught science and math). The other lit classes read Romeo and Juliet Together (and Alive!) at Last by Avi, while mine read the Shakespeare play. My students had a blast acting things out in class, interpreting the meanings, etc., and their parents ( and I'd wound up with two dc of school board members) were highly complimentary. Of course, I was never asked to teach a section of lit again as the two older English teachers were deeply offended by my gall in actually requiring literature students to read literature. I was blessed in that my administrators were always highly supportive of my efforts to improve my students' minds, but, looking around me, I was certain that public school teachers were, in general, not people I wanted to entrust my children's futures to.

[Halftime Hope]

But that is a completely illogical assumption. :confused: There are SO MANY potential things to study that even a sheltered person would be hard pressed to conclude EVERY university offers ALL of them.

 

But her frame of reference is high school--she might very well assume that colleges all teach the things one is supposed to learn in college.

 

We've been "gobsmacked" at some of the assumptions my kids have made, and they are not living in a bubble at all--they are simply inexperienced.

[Charles Wallace]

Even 25 yrs ago, I quit student teaching b/c of the bureaucracy and being hog-tied vs. being allowed to teach.

 

I had grand visions of what I wanted to teach and how I wanted to teach it. Every activity/lesson I planned that was beyond ditto sheets landed me in hot water. I was continuously reprimanded. The other teachers complained and the principal lectured b/c "students in the various classrooms compare what is occurring in the other classes and the school needs to be homogenous in approach."

 

My few weeks in that building convinced me that I would never be a public school teacher and that no child of mine would ever walk through the door of a public school. We have become focused strictly on leveling the playing field at the expense of anything "great and beautiful."

 

Wow...I know exactly what you're dealing with. EXACTLY. I'm sorry to say that, though.