Heart aching for one of my high school seniors. Gobsmacked at her parents.

[CTYorkie]

If this family is "financially unstable," they may be quite challenged just to keep food on the table or pay medical bills. I suppose if they're planning a vacation there must be some $ unless lots of family/friend visits are on the agenda. But we can't possibly know from afar their situation so I'm inclined not to judge. Why they disallow computer use at night isn't clear. What if the husband is looking for a new job and that's his only chance to work on his resume, fill out all the online apps? I don't know. And that's precisely the point. There's a lot we don't know.

 

What is known is that internet access (at the library, at school, at friend's homes) isn't all that hard to come by. It would probably take about ten minutes to figure out that her "great" choice didn't even offer her major. Yeah, her parents should have double-checked before dumping $75; but to me, the onus was on the girl, especially if the parents are struggling or don't value college in the same manner (which btw is their prerogative).

 

The girl may be devastated, and I have compassion for her feelings. But if even small tasks like checking on her major, or asking for an ILL of the book, or getting to the library or a friend's to gain online access, are beyond her, how would she handle the rigors of college? The professors won't hand-hold her there.

 

As for the "crappy" school comment, that's a value judgment. Perhaps it is inferior; but people turn down their noses at a local cc here only to be shocked to learn that its nursing program has an even higher rating from the accreditation council than the the one at the more revered state university.

 

I went to a state school (started mid-year and without any guidance help) and sought out the hardest professors. Others went to prestigious schools and sought out odd & easy classes. Sometimes it's what you make it.

 

Another option is for her to see which, if any, CBE credits would be accepted by her EPC choices and work toward obtaining those credits next year if things don't come together. Financially, it might actually be a very good idea given the details shared.

 

Just my .02

[Heather in VA]

but we have always striven to raise our children - past certain age and with gradual maturing, of course - in the latter paradigm.

.

 

We have as well... in fact my 16 year old is going to Peru this summer, her second medical missions trip, with no help from me beyond the parental forms and taking her to get her passport renewed. But from what I can tell from the OP's first post, the parents of this girl don't think these things are important. So if she came to them and said 'I need $50 for SATs', it sounds to me like they wouldn't be that open to it. After all they told the OP poster that they didn't see the need since they didn't have to 30 years ago. If this is the prevailing attitude it may be frustrating to get even minor support from them. It may be that this girl sat on her butt and waited for someone to tell her what to do, and if that's so then she really dug this hole herself. But I'm hearing a lot in the description of the parents comments and reactions that make me think they don't care if she does any of this stuff so they don't seem too motivated to provide ANY support. After all they just want her to 'go to a crappy college and get married'. If that is your goal for your kid, investment of time and money into something else may not be a priority for you.

 

Heather

[GoVanGogh]

But if even small tasks like checking on her major, or asking for an ILL of the book, or getting to the library or a friend's to gain online access, are beyond her, how would she handle the rigors of college? The professors won't hand-hold her there.

:iagree:

If she is mature enough and responsible enough to handle the rigors of college, she ought to be mature enough and responsible enough to figure out what she needs to do to get there.

[Kareni]

Is there ONE source for information? Or at least one source for a checklist of things I have to learn and prepare for?

 

 

I found this book to give a good overview of the college application process. Note: it's not geared towards homeschoolers though the topic of homeschooling is addressed.

 

How to Get Into the Top Colleges by Richard Montauk and Krista Klein

 

Don't let the title of the book mislead you as there is good advice for all prospective college students whether they are aiming high or not.

 

Regards,

Kareni

[angela in ohio]

It seems these parents were operating under a outdated paradigm, that they could still do all the prep work now for fall. Maybe they had assured their dd that would be the case.

 

Probably 90% of the homeschoolers I know are basing their decisions about their dc's college admissions process on how it was when they went to school, as if nothing has changed in the 20 to 30 years since. So I don't think that's unusual. That's the gap that a guidance counselor would usually fill - having up-to-date information.

 

They are operating in a system that is *designed* to work through a guidance counselor, imho. That's where the information goes, and the expectation is that a guidance counselor is assisting each student in some way. I think that's where the failure is in this case.

[angela in ohio]

Is there ONE source for information? Or at least one source for a checklist of things I have to learn and prepare for?

 

I have found this book -Get It Together for College - to be the best one-stop source of information. I have been recommending it as a starting point for other homeschool moms and for friends who want to understand the process even though their dc are in school. It has every checklist and timeline you could ever need.

[Dustybug]

Here in NC, an applicant to the UNC system must have four years of high school Math. This includes Algebra I & II, Geometry and at least one course beyond Algebra II (i.e. Precalc, Statistics, etc.)

 

This is a rising trend in other state systems as well.

 

Huh. I didn't attend high school here in NC, just came here for college and ended up staying because I met my husband. I guess maybe because I didn't go to a state school?

[Trilliums]

I applaud you for taking the time to help out this young lady. Yes, ideally she would have already been in top of things, but the world is full of late bloomers along with the precocious. You have an opportunity to really make a difference in her life and it is inspirational to see how much you care.

 

I hope she finds a good fit and doesn't just give up before she has even started.

[Mona100]

That, I believe, is part of the difference, the willingness to help. I remember as a child going to my parents with ideas of things to do, I got turned down. I played trombone instead of saxophone (like I really wanted) because my dad refused to pay for a saxophone, a trombone was cheaper. I wanted to try out to be a cheerleader, camp was 200.00, I knew I'd have a huge obstacle should I make the team. I wanted to be an exchange student. By that time I had kind of given up, it was going to cost nearly 3,000. I had no outlet to earn the money and they refused to consider letting me go anyway. When you start getting rejected at age 11, you either start to act like things don't matter or you keep asking in hope that some day they'll be willing. Then you get disappointed again. My parents are kind, wonderful people, we weren't that broke. They were just stingy. I do have to say they've changed, they are kind and generous to us now.

 

My ds has big goals, bigger than our budget. I've turned him down, but I always remind him that if we had the money, we would allow it. It shook through me the other day I mentioned to dh how much ds wants to travel to Japan as a college student. Dh shook his head and said, no, you can go when you're an adult. Dh has issues about that type of travel, silly imo, but they are his views. We dropped it, but I will remind dh that once ds goes to college he will be 19 his freshman year, he'll be an adult by then.

 

Not every parent is as willing and able.

 

 

So so true. My parents were unwilling to help. I came to them my junior year of high school to fill out applications to 4 year schools and they told me no. The reason I was told was that I was not smart enough to go to a 4 year school. The true reason was that they didn't want to pay for it. It was life changing for me. I honestly believe that if I had the opportunity to go to Auburn (my dream school), I would not have become pregnant my senior year of high school. So, parents do have huge responsiblity for having the right attitudes to get teenagers started in their adult life. I will give my daughter the tools to go to school but she knows that after high school she has to work or go to school.

[FaithManor]

deleted message

Edited March 4, 2012 by FaithManor

[FaithManor]

Again, thanks to all who contributed.

Edited March 4, 2012 by FaithManor

[Lang Syne Boardie]

How much trouble would you be in if you taught her about emancipation of a minor? I'm guessing she's never heard of that.

 

http://www.michiganlegalaid.org/library_client/family/emancipation_of_minors/html_view

 

She won't be the first 17yo to have to finish the job of raising herself.

[Bang!Zoom!]

Would volunteering in her fields of interest be of any help?

[2squared]

If she is mature enough and responsible enough to handle the rigors of college, she ought to be mature enough and responsible enough to figure out what she needs to do to get there.

 

I grew up on a dairy farm in a very rural area. My parents and grandparents did not go to college. I knew I was going to go to college, but I didn't have the foggiest idea what that really meant or how to get there. My parents didn't know either. My guidance counselor was less than impressive. I was the valedictorian of my class and senior class president. I wasn't sleeping under a rock, but getting to college was a huge unknown. As it was, I ended up applying to the only university I knew about.

 

The girl seems rather sheltered with no help from her parents. She's in a tough spot.

[GoVanGogh]

Many of you live in urban areas...try thinking outside the box...nearest town of more than 1000 people, 15 miles from her house...nearest thing to a city....50 minutes away. She does have a driver's license. They rarely ever let her have the car for personal use.

I do live in an urban area.

But what you described is no different than the rural midwestern town my DH and I graduated from 30 years ago - before the internet. DH was the first in his family to go to college and his parents took no part in his education. Our school's guidance counselor only helped the rich/popular kids. DH never once met with the counselor. He lived out in the country and rode his bike into town to the library to get college information.

I was talking with my MIL over the holidays and said something about DH being valedictorian of his high school class. She had no idea. :001_huh: That also might explain why she has, from time to time, given DH gifts from the wrong state university. :lol:

DH muddled his way through and landed on his feet, as have many other high school grads.

[GoVanGogh]

The girl seems rather sheltered with no help from her parents.

(We were posting at the same time.)

The sheltered part is what is problematic, in my opinion. If she is that sheltered, I honestly worry about her surviving college.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I've been able to get a lot of SAT study guides, and books about college from Paperback Swap. They might be a few years old but would beat a zero.

[Leola]

I'd be advising that it's time for a gap year (work & save money, work on scores, etc) and apply properly in the fall.

 

There's no way I'd advise trying to go anywhere this fall.

:iagree:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I would not consider this girl to be college-bound at this point. She'll probably have to approach adult life from a different angle, but she has more options than her parents' non-options.

 

I'd seriously look at vocational training. I went that route, finding a job* and a crummy apartment first and then becoming a medical assistant while still working full-time. I really loved my job and made enough to live on my own in a better apartment. If I hadn't chosen marriage when I did, the long-range plan was to become a registered nurse. Vocational training can prove to a smart young person that they are capable of pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps, and make them want to go further.

 

*I'd also ask her if she had any interest in the Peace Corps or the National Guard, because the jobs are probably not there in your area right now. These options would have the same effect in that she could gain confidence, assess her own skills, and get away from home into the bigger world.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

(We were posting at the same time.)

The sheltered part is what is problematic, in my opinion. If she is that sheltered, I honestly worry about her surviving college.

 

Agreed. Step one is to grow up, make her own decisions and stand on her own two feet. Her parents are not a safety net.

[ktgrok]

What about Americorps or something like that? Let the government give her a stipend, it would look good on an application, and get her out of the house!!

[Corraleno]

I think that kids deserve more than that.

 

ETA: Just realized that I will be taken to task for using the word "deserve". Our children deserve nothing, I will be told. Again I will beg to differ.

Thank you for saying that, Jane. I've been really shocked by some of the assumptions that people are making here.

 

This child is not immature. She's not irresponsible. She's not scatterbrained or stupid. She's naive and she's that way because she's been raised in a bubble.

Bless you for helping this girl, Faith. I'm so glad that she has someone in her life that's not writing her off as "lazy" or deciding she's not college material just because it didn't occur to her to hitch-hike to a library, lie about her age, access the internet against her parents' wishes, and check to see if they were lying to her about the requirements for getting into college.

 

Clearly, this girl is not the only one living in a bubble. :glare:

 

Jackie

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Jackie, I hope you're not including me in that. I don't think she's ready for college yet, which is very different from thinking that she'll never get there.

 

This situation is a reality for many American children! They're all told they can "Do anything you want to do! You can be President!" but nobody bothers to tell them exactly where they stand in comparison to other American children and children from other countries who are working for those U.S. college spots. Nobody teaches them the facts about college: How to get in, how to stay in, how to pay for it. They're given inflated grades and an inflated sense of self-esteem only to have Real Life rise up and knock them down after graduation.

 

This is an old story. Apathetic parents are also not rare. Children of these situations can either follow their parents' footsteps (or worse) or develop a special American-style kind of courage and create their own path.

 

No, I don't think Faith's student should plan to go to college in the fall unless she's willing to start with the crappy cc and work up from there. I think character traits of cutting the apron strings and finding her feet and her vision should come first. I'm not saying she's like her parents. Faith has listed her good qualities. I am saying that her parents' apathy is probably like cobwebs over her life and she needs some distance from that if she's going to have the guts to do more. A job, a vocation, a career...grow up first and then do whatever it takes to go to college on her own steam.

[Ester Maria]

Jackie, I hope you're not including me in that. I don't think she's ready for college yet, which is very different from thinking that she'll never get there.

[...]

I'm not saying she's like her parents. Faith has listed her good qualities. I am saying that her parents' apathy is probably like cobwebs over her life and she needs some distance from that if she's going to have the guts to do more. A job, a vocation, a career...grow up first and then do whatever it takes to go to college on her own steam.

None of my insomniac techniques are working so I am back to "work" on the comp, i.e. to end up here. :lol:

 

I agree with this.

 

And I doubt any of us are "writing her off", especially in a definite fashion, if we suggest that, really, at present point, how she went about attaining something important (is it important to her at all?), point that she may not be ready for this challenge at present.

 

The good news is, which I of course thought would go without saying, is that this current point in her life is not *the* her life. Just a point at it. And she can, and will, grow beyond it. But for that she needs more time, more maturity, being more proactive, recognizing her naivety and find alternative opportunities for herself. It is not the end of the world. She is not "falling". Only "evolving". In the context of some very real disadvantages for her, yes, but she can grow past that and be ready at 18, 20, 50, for what she was not ready to handle at 17.

[GoVanGogh]

I think character traits of cutting the apron strings and finding her feet and her vision should come first. I'm not saying she's like her parents. Faith has listed her good qualities. I am saying that her parents' apathy is probably like cobwebs over her life and she needs some distance from that if she's going to have the guts to do more. A job, a vocation, a career...grow up first and then do whatever it takes to go to college on her own steam.

Exactly, especially the bolded. She will enter college stronger and more confident if she distances herself from her upbringing first. (But we are all armchair quarterbacks in this anyway. ;))

My DH was terribly sheltered and extremely shy. I am shocked at some of the stories he tells about his early years in college. (Ex: Being tied to a chair and having alcohol poured in his mouth.) That was 30 years ago. I shudder to think what college would be like today for a sheltered child.

[Corraleno]

Jackie, I hope you're not including me in that. I don't think she's ready for college yet, which is very different from thinking that she'll never get there.

I was referring more to those who assume that all students have access to the sort of resources and information that their own children do, and that this girl simply "chose" not to avail herself of those resources. As if she could just hop in the car and drive herself to the library and spend hours on the internet (against her parents wishes) looking for information she didn't even know she needed. As if her friends would obviously know all about SATs and ACTS and college requirements, because of course all teens know that stuff, so she must have been ignoring them or just too lazy to bother.

 

If her parents were telling her that her 4.0 would get her into any college with no standardized tests, and no one — no friend, no teacher, no guidance counselor — ever told her anything different, why would she assume her parents were lying to her? How was she supposed to find that out, when she had no access to any information and no one, until Faith came along, who cared enough to help her?

 

I don't think the fact that she didn't automatically know that her parents were lying to her, and that she didn't somehow find a way to secretly access the internet against their wishes, means she's a helpless little thing who's dependent on her parents and incapable of standing on her own two feet. If Faith had been there since the beginning of the year, and this girl had had proper advice and encouragement, she might be heading off to a good university in September, well-prepared and ready to go. IMHO, the fact that she's not in that position now reflects the fact that she was badly let down by her family and her school, not that she's lazy or helpless or incapable of surviving college.

 

Jackie

[ktgrok]

Ok, I looked at the Americorps website, and I really think you should explore this with her. The Civilian Corp program (I think it is NRCC or something like that) is residential. She would be provided with food, housing, a small stipend for living expenses, some health care, and at the end she gets a scholarship of about $5,000. And she would be away from her crazy family, getting experience in the world, and it would probably look great on a resume. And she could use the internet, lol.

[Ester Maria]

Fair enough, Jackie (although some of those points were clarified in Faith's response following what I had written, not clarified in the OP), but just HOW do you explain not informing herself of which majors are even OFFERED at the universities she applied to? Or the logic behind choosing the school in the first place ("heard it was great"?!)?

 

I totally understand about wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt, but those were ultimate points which made her irresponsible in my eyes. Sort of, even if I agree with you about the specifics you mention, as in the Faith's follow up post (and I am not sure I agree with them 100%, but for the sake of an argument let us say I overlook them), HOW can you exuse the above two?! :confused:

[Teachin'Mine]

Fair enough, Jackie (although some of those points were clarified in Faith's response following what I had written, not clarified in the OP), but just HOW do you explain not informing herself of which majors are even OFFERED at the universities she applied to? Or the logic behind choosing the school in the first place ("heard it was great"?!)?

 

I totally understand about wanting to give her the benefit of the doubt, but those were ultimate points which made her irresponsible in my eyes. Sort of, even if I agree with you about the specifics you mention, as in the Faith's follow up post (and I am not sure I agree with them 100%, but for the sake of an argument let us say I overlook them), HOW can you exuse the above two?! :confused:

 

Not Jackie, but it seems likely that it never even occurred to her that different colleges offered different areas of study. How would she have known this? There were no books about colleges at her school, no guidance about colleges and she had no internet access. Hearing information from others was pretty much her only resource. And as she lived a sheltered life, the other 10 or 11 seniors were her source of information.

[Ester Maria]

Not Jackie' date=' but it seems likely that it never even occurred to her that different colleges offered different areas of study.[/quote']

But that is a completely illogical assumption. :confused: There are SO MANY potential things to study that even a sheltered person would be hard pressed to conclude EVERY university offers ALL of them.

[Teachin'Mine]

No I don't think it's illogical at all, but Faith is the only one who can tell us whether this was part of her thinking or not. If you've been told very little about college, other than all you need is a 4.0 and no standardized tests and can apply in the spring, why would it be a stretch to imagine that she didn't know that a "good" school wouldn't offer her major?

[Ester Maria]

No I don't think it's illogical at all' date=' but Faith is the only one who can tell us whether this was part of her thinking or not. If you've been told very little about college, other than all you need is a 4.0 and no standardized tests and can apply in the spring, why would it be a stretch to imagine that she didn't know that a "good" school wouldn't offer her major?[/quote']

Because there are so many areas one can possibly study. If I think only humanities, for example, such an imaginary school would have to have departments and cathedras for pretty much any language that has been studied at all; faculties for all major sciences with subspecializations (not only biology, but also marine biology type of thing); ditto for arts, etc. It is just logically impossible to have a university offering courses of study in ALL areas of human thought and activity, so the only conclusion possible is that SOME areas will certainly be left out and that she should INFORM herself of whether her area is present. Because it is physically impossible that ALL is present.

 

Has she ever required confirmations of what she was told by her teachers, or asked to use the internet with her parents right next to her to inform themselves together and be ASSURED things are as they find them to be? Or has she asked her teachers to do so? Has she ever got a formal, black on white, confirmation that yes, that is ALL she needed to do, no additional tests were required?

 

It just seems like a story with too many "gaps" to me. I find it very hard to believe she was truly, absolutely, to the best of her ability, incapable and stopped by all kinds of external factors to get out of that bubble even a little more.

[Teachin'Mine]

You are approaching this situation from your vantage point and with all the experience and information you have. To me, that's illogical. This student has lived in a bubble, but you are in a bubble of a different sort as well. Honestly, I'm surprised. I know that her situation is vastly different from that of your daughters, but I'm sure you're widely read and I don't know how this type of a family situation hasn't come up in literature at least. There aren't holes in the story ... it's just a very different lifestyle from that to which you are accustomed. I don't mean to be harsh, but I'm as gobsmacked by your responses here as I was by the student's situation.

[Laurie4b]

Yep. Gap year.

[2squared]

But that is a completely illogical assumption. :confused: There are SO MANY potential things to study that even a sheltered person would be hard pressed to conclude EVERY university offers ALL of them.

 

Maybe I can help you understand. Pretend you grew up on a dairy farm in a small rural community. The professionals in your world are: farmers, doctors, teachers, attorneys, accountants, and priests. You live on a farm. You visit the doctor when you are sick. You go to school every day. Your grandparents live next to an attorney and an accountant. You see the priest at church.

 

You are 17yo. Your world isn't rich and full of variety. You don't know what you don't know. My world at 17yo was very small. My kids' worlds are already bigger than what I had at 17yo.

[Ester Maria]

Honestly' date=' I'm surprised. I know that her situation is vastly different from that of your daughters, but I'm sure you're widely read and I don't know how this type of a family situation hasn't come up in literature at least. There aren't holes in the story ... it's just a very different lifestyle from that to which you are accustomed. I don't mean to be harsh, but I'm as gobsmacked by your responses here as I was by the student's situation.[/quote']

I know exactly what you are talking about, and even a bit IRL at that. With certain subgroups of formerly ultra religious young people abandoning their lifestyle and being practically aliens in the secular world. But those people had close to ZERO secular knowledge (and I do mean this *very* seriously, as in, 3rd grade functioning in language arts and maths), not an education leading up to college. Those young people are clueless. They get out not only having been forbidden to use the internet, they get out basically not knowing what is the internet, not knowing how to type or use properly the electronic devices, barely reading (or not reading at all) the Latin script, not knowing which secular clothes are male and which female because they were totally, totally secluded from the secular culture, etc. Those people have my full compassion, because for them, it WAS impossible, tangibly impossible, and the sole fact they managed to make such a huge break off from their lifestyle in the first place is nothing short of courageous. And it meant getting disowned by their families with all ties cut.

 

Such cases, however, are extraordinarily rare in the developed world. I highly doubt the story of this girl even approaches some of what has made my blood boil with anger when I learned of and encountered these situations. I may have been a bit presumptuous in assessing her story, but frankly, assuming the worst possible form of "sheltered" would not have made much sense as per statistical probability.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Teachin'Mine]

Statistics really don't play into it as this is about one student. Even if she's in the statistical minority, it doesn't matter, as it's her reality.

 

I guess I don't see how a person's situation needs to be extreme in order for that person to be deserving of understanding, compassion, or help.

 

I'm so glad that this young lady has Faith looking out for her best interests. :)

[Ester Maria]

I guess I don't see how a person's situation needs to be extreme in order for that person to be deserving of understanding' date=' compassion, or help. [/quote']

Extreme situations, in which one literally could not have done anything and in which their world was so very small, require equally extreme levels of understanding and compassion. :) The less extreme, in which lack of opportunity was mingled with some personal failures along the way, require that understanding and compassion also to be mingled with a critical attitude. The very other end of the spectrum, the privileged one in which the opportunities were there, but the character and personal application was not, require perhaps a bit more of that critical attitude and a bit less of that understanding. That is more or less my view.

 

And in any case, one can always improve and grow past their present point. It is a sad story, but not the end of the world and not the end of this girl's life. She is only beginning. Her whole life in front of her. :)

[Corraleno]

You are approaching this situation from your vantage point and with all the experience and information you have. To me' date=' that's illogical. This student has lived in a bubble, but you are in a bubble of a different sort as well. Honestly, I'm surprised. I know that her situation is vastly different from that of your daughters, but I'm sure you're widely read and I don't know how this type of a family situation hasn't come up in literature at least. There aren't holes in the story ... it's just a very different lifestyle from that to which you are accustomed. I don't mean to be harsh, but I'm as gobsmacked by your responses here as I was by the student's situation.[/quote']

:iagree: Exactly.

 

Unless this girl was planning to major in Sanskrit or Mongolian or something really unusual (which I highly doubt, given the school she was coming from), then she would have no reason to suspect that different colleges offer different majors. She probably didn't even understand that there's a difference between a college offering courses in a subject, and offering a degree in the subject. E.g., our state uni offers many courses in Ancient Greek, from intro 101 classes through 400-level literature classes, but you can't get a BA in Greek; you can minor in Greek or you can get a BA in Classics. How would a kid with no access to college catalogs, no access to the internet, no guidance counselor, and woefully misinformed parents who couldn't care less, be expected to know that?

 

When I was in HS (in the 70s), I also had a lousy guidance counselor (who didn't think it really mattered where girls went to college, because they were just going to get married and have babies anyway :glare: ), I came from a family that had never sent anyone to college before, and I had totally clueless parents who were completely uninvolved in the process, other than finally filling out the financial aid forms if I bugged them enough. I didn't know that different colleges offered different majors, or that certain colleges were known for certain subjects or departments. I ended up with a National Merit Scholarship to an excellent small LAC that was perfect for me, but in many ways that was just sheer luck.

 

The fact that this stuff is common knowledge to people on this board doesn't mean that it would be obvious or self-evident to a 17 yo who's never even seen a college catalog.

 

Jackie

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Ester, sometimes I think you don't quite grasp the level of lying that goes on in some American schools today.

 

Our American ancestors in one-room schoolhouses, crowded tenement Sunday schools, and homeschools knew they were less educated than other people in the world. The eighth-grade graduate of a pioneer school knew he was less educated than the eastern dude whose daddy could afford college.

 

Our uneducated American children today have no idea how dumb they are. They are told that they're smart, and they're given A's they did not earn. Anything above comatose gets an "attaboy," any effort above cheating is praised. It's all to mollify the parents, keep the government money coming, and feed the beast, and the entire nation is paying the price.

 

I can't emphasize how rare it is for a child sitting in one of these factories for mushy brains to sit up and say, "What the h*ll is going on here? I'm not learning a d*mn thing, and these people around here are even dumber than me. My teacher is lying, my principal is lying, and I know for a fact my test scores are lying." No way. One in ten thousand, maybe.

 

Now, that's what some of us did last generation. And then we tuned out the school people all day and biked to the library to educate ourselves. But we could, you see, because before they stopped teaching us they did bother to teach us to read with phonics. We could read, so we could learn on our own. Our libraries were pretty good 20 years ago, too. Also, they didn't puff us up 20 years ago. They didn't lie to us about our accomplishments. Not like now. And we never, ever, ever got 'participation trophies' in Little League.

 

When we faced the world at 17 or 18 the picture was fairly clear. No matter who was to blame, we understood the score, and we still had the guts to deal with it. I don't think it's the same now.

 

Oh, boy, am I gonna get it tomorrow after some people read this. AuntieM once told me I was a straight-shooter, though, and sometimes I just have to get out the old soapbox and shoot my mouth off. Ugh. Sorry. I think this needs said.

 

It's not happening in ALL schools but it's happening in many. Inner-city, rural, mountain, and even suburban schools have become worse than ineffective. They've become a sham.

 

Edited to add: This post is a little less germane to the conversation than I previously believed, because I totally forgot that Faith's student is part of a class of 11 students at a parochial school. It's almost 2 a.m. though, so I'll let the post stand and come back tomorrow to see which parts of it might matter.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Lawana]

I am of that opinion.

 

While I do feel sorry that a bright kid will have to wait another semester / year to reach her goals, Faith's post actually reeks of personal responsibility (i.e. lack of it) to me, not so much of family responsibility.

 

Her parents were not even "supposed" to do anything - *she* was the one who had to know whether her prospective majors are offered at schools she was applying at (what do you mean she is finding out now that her major is not even offered?! that is irresponsible on HER part, not her parents' part), what were the standardized tests she had to take and what the admissions process included, she was the one that had to make different internet arrangements if needed (at a friend, ask school to provide her with computer time if she cannot use one at home, seek help about internet *in advance*), test prep book can be borrowed too, she was the one that had to research majors, her parents' only duty was to finance (and even that we could debate...) and sign whatever they had to sign. Everything else was HER duty and things going wrong now are HER responsibility.

 

I too vote for a gap year if at all possible - and for completely owning her failure this time. She is an adult already, all of these things should be her responsibility, regardless of her parents "values" about finding somebody to marry ASAP.

I agree in theory. I love personal responsibility.

 

If I may, I would like to share another side. Both my parents went to college. My mother went right out of high school with a scholarship for nursing. My father went on the GI bill (served in the Army during the Korean conflict) mostly at night, not right out of high school. Both of them were admitted before SAT or ACT was a factor (1950's and early 1960's). My mother, at least, had to take college entrance exams instead.

 

There was always an expectation that the kids (5 of us) would go to college. There was not, however, any discussion about what it took to get there. I was completely on my own from grade 7 on regarding all things school related. I picked my own classes (skipping math in 9th grade because I had a really crappy algebra experience in 8th), and as long as I was making progress towards a diploma, noone cared or intervened. I knew that there were "guidance counselors" at the high school, but thought they were just for the troubled kids. We were not required to meet with them, and I had no idea that they might have any benefit to me. All around me, I saw that other kids were in advanced classes, participated in extracurricular activities, were National Merit Scholars, but had no earthly idea how these things were done. My home environment was such that passivity was rewarded, especially for girls. (Was envited to accompany a friend to Brownies one afternoon as an eight year old, but forbidden from joining because "girls don't need to learn leadership".)

 

I was desperate and motivated to get out of my home situation, but had no other source of information. As it was, I found out, somehow, very late, that I had to take an exam to get into college (the ACT was the default choice in my area), and took it for the first time in the spring of my senior year. My results were mediocre, due in large part to my slow reading speed. At that time, however, it was enough for an admission to an in-state college.

 

So I took myself off to a university in a town 90 miles away, paying for tuition, books and room and board with money I had saved while working from ages 14-18. My parents contributed *nothing*, nor did I get any type of "aid". Believe me, I realize that that is not even possible now with current college costs.

 

The point being that I didn't even know that there were questions to ask, let alone knowing the right questions, or having any idea of the resources from which to gather information. So while making it the student's own responsibility is a wonderful idea, it does require context. A young person that can buck the system of their environment and first, imagine an outcome wholey outside their day-to-day experience, and second, follow through with a course of actions required to realize that vision, can be, in my opinion, considered an outlier. These things do happen, but not often. It takes a force of personality and will that is not within the range of average.

[Lawana]

(We were posting at the same time.)

The sheltered part is what is problematic, in my opinion. If she is that sheltered, I honestly worry about her surviving college.

I guess it depends on what you mean. I was extremely sheltered, but had no problems academically. Socially was another story. I did manage to make my way through an electrical engineering degree, albeit from a mediocre state school.

[Corraleno]

I can't emphasize how rare it is for a child sitting in one of these factories for mushy brains to sit up and say, "What the h*ll is going on here? I'm not learning a d*mn thing, and these people around here are even dumber than me. My teacher is lying, my principal is lying, and I know for a fact my test scores are lying." No way. One in ten thousand, maybe.

Yup. And, in this girl's case, her parents were lying to her, too. And since she had no other sources of information, and nothing to compare her own experience and information to, she had no reason to suspect that she was being lied to.

 

 

The point being that I didn't even know that there were questions to ask, let alone knowing the right questions, or having any idea of the resources from which to gather information. So while making it the student's own responsibility is a wonderful idea, it does require context. A young person that can buck the system of their environment and first, imagine an outcome wholey outside their day-to-day experience, and second, follow through with a course of actions required to realize that vision, can be, in my opinion, considered an outlier. These things do happen, but not often. It takes a force of personality and will that is not within the range of average.

:iagree:

 

Jackie

[Ester Maria]

Our uneducated American children today have no idea how dumb they are. They are told that they're smart, and they're given A's they did not earn. Anything above comatose gets an "attaboy," any effort above cheating is praised. It's all to mollify the parents, keep the government money coming, and feed the beast, and the entire nation is paying the price.

When I did start being aware of these things, it creeped the hell out of me. It is a kiss of death, intellectually and morally.

 

I will ponder the bubble comment by TM. :glare: Maybe she is right. Sigh.

[TeacherZee]

Not sure if this has been said but, she could try for a year as an au pair if the job situation is so bad where you are (and I have no problem believing it is). That would give her a chance to get away from her parents and see the world. Might do her a world of good. If she does go I advice going with a reputable organisation.

[creekland]

 

Our uneducated American children today have no idea how dumb they are. They are told that they're smart, and they're given A's they did not earn. Anything above comatose gets an "attaboy," any effort above cheating is praised. It's all to mollify the parents, keep the government money coming, and feed the beast, and the entire nation is paying the price.

 

I can't emphasize how rare it is for a child sitting in one of these factories for mushy brains to sit up and say, "What the h*ll is going on here? I'm not learning a d*mn thing, and these people around here are even dumber than me. My teacher is lying, my principal is lying, and I know for a fact my test scores are lying." No way. One in ten thousand, maybe.

 

...

 

It's not happening in ALL schools but it's happening in many. Inner-city, rural, mountain, and even suburban schools have become worse than ineffective. They've become a sham.

 

 

 

:iagree:

 

There are 10 pages to this thread now and I don't have time to read them all (chess states were yesterday and today and college boy is home with his 'serious' girlfriend). I will say, however, that what Tibbie wrote is 100% true. I see it every single day at the school I work in and our school is AVERAGE among stats. Just last night I was talking with one of the other chess players about college. He's a junior. What is NOT commonly held knowledge is amazing.

 

And the lies told to our students (about being well-educated) is doubly amazing. I had to hold my tongue last week when the head of our math department told a visiting future student teacher that her "College Algebra" class (for which students can get 3 college credits in math at some colleges) is AHEAD of AP classes like Calc. The College Algebra covers the same material as my Pre-Calc book and while it can count for credits, it's usually elective credits - not necessarily math credits since it's often a remedial class at higher level schools. AP Calc would be "ahead" of College Alg math-wise to anyone knowledgeable I know, but who knows to dispute the lies being told to them?

[8filltheheart]

Ester, sometimes I think you don't quite grasp the level of lying that goes on in some American schools today.

 

Our American ancestors in one-room schoolhouses, crowded tenement Sunday schools, and homeschools knew they were less educated than other people in the world. The eighth-grade graduate of a pioneer school knew he was less educated than the eastern dude whose daddy could afford college.

 

Our uneducated American children today have no idea how dumb they are. They are told that they're smart, and they're given A's they did not earn. Anything above comatose gets an "attaboy," any effort above cheating is praised. It's all to mollify the parents, keep the government money coming, and feed the beast, and the entire nation is paying the price.

 

I can't emphasize how rare it is for a child sitting in one of these factories for mushy brains to sit up and say, "What the h*ll is going on here? I'm not learning a d*mn thing, and these people around here are even dumber than me. My teacher is lying, my principal is lying, and I know for a fact my test scores are lying." No way. One in ten thousand, maybe.

 

Now, that's what some of us did last generation. And then we tuned out the school people all day and biked to the library to educate ourselves. But we could, you see, because before they stopped teaching us they did bother to teach us to read with phonics. We could read, so we could learn on our own. Our libraries were pretty good 20 years ago, too. Also, they didn't puff us up 20 years ago. They didn't lie to us about our accomplishments. Not like now. And we never, ever, ever got 'participation trophies' in Little League.

 

When we faced the world at 17 or 18 the picture was fairly clear. No matter who was to blame, we understood the score, and we still had the guts to deal with it. I don't think it's the same now.

 

Oh, boy, am I gonna get it tomorrow after some people read this. AuntieM once told me I was a straight-shooter, though, and sometimes I just have to get out the old soapbox and shoot my mouth off. Ugh. Sorry. I think this needs said.

 

It's not happening in ALL schools but it's happening in many. Inner-city, rural, mountain, and even suburban schools have become worse than ineffective. They've become a sham.

 

Edited to add: This post is a little less germane to the conversation than I previously believed, because I totally forgot that Faith's student is part of a class of 11 students at a parochial school. It's almost 2 a.m. though, so I'll let the post stand and come back tomorrow to see which parts of it might matter.

 

This thread has taken some interesting twists and turns. As far as the OP goes, I think there is blame in 3 directions: the school, the parents, and the student. I do not believe the blame is equal in %, however.

 

Tibbie's post is incredibly thought-provoking. I tend to agree. I do not think this is just representative of government schools, unfortunately. It is a pervasive American attitude in general. It is evident on these forums as well. (reading about parents who believe their elementary age kids are so far accelerated that their students are functioning on a high school/college level and yet the curriculum they are using is actually below avg to avg for grade level. or it being perfectly ok to not be able to write a coherent paragraph in high school.....while it might be ok for that particular student's ability, it is still not representative of normal grade level achievement.)

 

This gov't pdf scares the pants off of me: http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/pcast-executive-report-final_feb.pdf Not about necessarily increasing the quality of education to produce more graduates......:tongue_smilie:

Edited March 4, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[2squared]

When we faced the world at 17 or 18 the picture was fairly clear. No matter who was to blame, we understood the score, and we still had the guts to deal with it. I don't think it's the same now.

 

This is a great point. When I left the farm and moved into my dorm - 1 of 25,000 kids - at my university, I knew I was behind academically and socially. I knew the kids from the big city schools had advantages that I couldn't imagine. I guessed that they had science offerings beyond chemisty, languages offered beyond 2 years of Spanish, and four years of math. I took my fourth year at our po-dunk community college because the entire rest of my class took "consumer" math for their fourth year. I didn't know of electives beyond ag class, home ec, and business typing, so I didn't know I was behind there too. :tongue_smilie:

 

I moved into my college dorm and these big city kids talked differently than I did, listened to different music, and wore different clothing. They were even of different races and nationalities than me! My parents didn't shelter me within my little world, but my little world was artificially sheltered. The whole college experience was quite a culture shock. It was all great, but my first year was a HUGE adjustment.

[G5052]

It's not happening in ALL schools but it's happening in many. Inner-city, rural, mountain, and even suburban schools have become worse than ineffective. They've become a sham.

 

 

Many homeschools too. As I noted earlier on this thread, I see it all the time. My homeschooling is very much affected by the 15 years I worked before having kids and my 13 years as a community college professor. There's a certain arrogance in homeschooling that no matter what we do, it is superior to public school. Nope, not always.

 

Frankly sometimes I don't like teaching the kids of homeschooling friends because it shows up this sort of thing. They take my class as their very first college class, and if they fail it, blame the professor. Yup. I made it too hard. I was too demanding on the schedule, too rigid on my policies. Never mind that I've taught it that way for over a decade, in compliance with the college policies, which are no different than the majority of 4-year schools.

[FaithManor]

Let's allow the thread to die off and I will research the options presented in the earlier threads.

 

Thank you,

Faith

Edited March 4, 2012 by FaithManor