What is the Goal for Writing in Middle School?

[Mom0012]

What would your expectations be for a 7th grader? My son has taken an outsourced IEW class for the last couple of years and I feel it is pretty challenging, but he is a struggling writer. The class that he would take next year with the same teacher will cover IEW units on critiques, compare/contrast, persuasive essay, research writing, and expository essay. All the papers will be 5 paragraphs long. My son is a very concrete thinker and is not good at analyzing things and will not do well with the critiques or the persuasive essays. Honestly, if he could just stick with research writing for now, I think he'd be fine. That's all he really seems to be ready for.

 

What are normal expectations of a child in this grade? I sometimes feel like I should just get SWI B and take it at our own pace, but this teacher is excellent and the class is in high demand. If we drop out, we will lose our spot and I don't think we'll be able to get back into the class.

 

Lisa

[Joyofsixreboot]

I think being able to do a 5 paragraph essay and a 3 page or so cited report

( they call them research papers but that bugs me) is about right by the end of 7th grade. That said, my 5th grade boy, who dislikes writing, will be straining to get there by 7th grade. He just started IEW. And has made great strides. It seems to work well for the " I'm never going to love writing" types fro what I've seen.

[Colleen in NS]

What would your expectations be for a 7th grader?

 

My expectations for my struggled-in-grammar-stage 7th grade writer were that he learned to outline paragraphs to the third level (he went to fourth level on his own after he figured this out), and that he could summarize in a paragraph the plot of a story or the most important ideas about a science or history passage. Toward the end of the grade 7 year I showed him how to rewrite from his outlines, and he practiced that for awhile, too.

 

But my expectations have to do with all I heard in SWB's writing lectures. I was comfortable that with continued progress in the methods in WTM (gaining grammar knowledge, continued reading and summarizing, logic and rhetoric training, etc.) my son would eventually gain those other skills you talked about in your OP, just at a later time.

 

If your son were mine, I would go with his own pace, and not worry about losing a place with an excellent teacher. The excellent teacher, in a classroom setting (as opposed to an individual tutor), won't matter at all if your son cannot think analytically yet.

[Mom0012]

My expectations for my struggled-in-grammar-stage 7th grade writer were that he learned to outline paragraphs to the third level (he went to fourth level on his own after he figured this out), and that he could summarize in a paragraph the plot of a story or the most important ideas about a science or history passage. Toward the end of the grade 7 year I showed him how to rewrite from his outlines, and he practiced that for awhile, too.

 

But my expectations have to do with all I heard in SWB's writing lectures. I was comfortable that with continued progress in the methods in WTM (gaining grammar knowledge, continued reading and summarizing, logic and rhetoric training, etc.) my son would eventually gain those other skills you talked about in your OP, just at a later time.

 

If your son were mine, I would go with his own pace, and not worry about losing a place with an excellent teacher. The excellent teacher, in a classroom setting (as opposed to an individual tutor), won't matter at all if your son cannot think analytically yet.

 

Colleen -

 

This is what my gut is telling me-- to slow things down. I feel like I'm pushing him onto something he's not ready for and that he may miss out on building a stronger foundation because I'm just pushing him through. On the other hand, I am always reluctant to take things at a slower pace since it takes him longer to pick up on things. He needs a longer amount of time to master skills and I always feel like if I'm not getting a jump start on things, he will wind up behind.

 

At what age do you think most kids begin to think analytically? I think I need to reread the WTM writing materials again. I have WWS. Maybe I can try that with him this summer to see if this method works for him. Unfortunately, I think it only takes outlining to the second level and I'm not sure when WWS 2 will be out and how far that would take him.

 

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this.

 

Lisa

[Colleen in NS]

Colleen -

 

This is what my gut is telling me-- to slow things down. I feel like I'm pushing him onto something he's not ready for and that he may miss out on building a stronger foundation because I'm just pushing him through. On the other hand, I am always reluctant to take things at a slower pace since it takes him longer to pick up on things. He needs a longer amount of time to master skills and I always feel like if I'm not getting a jump start on things, he will wind up behind.

 

Behind what?

 

When I went to the WTM Anniv. conf. a few years ago, one thing SWB told us was that if, by the *end of high school*, our kids could outline paragraphs to three or four levels well and then rewrite from them, she as a college professor could easily take them further. She said many of her college freshmen do not even know how to do these skills. That blew my mind.

 

Of course, I hope to take my kids further down the writing road during high school, but I'm not convinced that kids need to master the skills you mentioned (from that class) *before* they get to high school. I see high school as a time to learn and practice them.

 

Then again, different people have different goals for the end of high school - I just like this slow-but-solid road we are on. My kids are learning how to think and express their thoughts clearly - something I did not learn in school at all.

 

At what age do you think most kids begin to think analytically? I think I need to reread the WTM writing materials again. I have WWS. Maybe I can try that with him this summer to see if this method works for him. Unfortunately, I think it only takes outlining to the second level and I'm not sure when WWS 2 will be out and how far that would take him.

 

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts on this.

 

Lisa

 

As to your question - I'm not sure. I can only tell you what my own kids have done. I think my son started analyzing things around age 10, but he was an early reader and inhaled books. He was also always intently observing everything around him. My 11yo daughter is just starting to analyze things that way, too. But only just starting. But I've seen mothers on here say that their kids at age 13, 14, don't think analytically yet, so it seems that there is a big range of individual possibilities. I don't think it's anything you can rush. But it is fun to watch when you start to seem glimmers of it happening.

 

About WWS - is your son prepared for it? Can he pretty easily take dictation? Can he summarize a couple of chapters in a story, or important details from a history or science book? Can he summarize AND write down his summary himself? (as in, even just 3-4 sentences) If he can, he can do WWS. WWS provides review on summarizing in the first few weeks, too.

 

You're right - WWS only teaches outlining to the second level, but you can fix that while still learning the other great stuff in it. Find a copy of the 3rd ed. WTM and look in the logic stage history section. There you will find the best outlining instructions eva! :D Use the questions in there to teach your son 3rd/4th level outlining, and then you can let him outline from any extra history and science reading (don't outline spines - use well-written paragraphs - it'll help him with the purpose of outlining - to show him how good paragraphs are structured - and it'll help him dig in more to his history and science learning).

 

As to the rest of WWS - there is so much good stuff in there. You can listen to SWB's logic stage writing audio and get good info., but when you go through WWS you realize that it's different because she cleverly takes some higher level skills and teaches them to younger students in a fun/interesting way they can understand. WWS tells the student and teacher every little step to take, and I am pleasantly shocked at what my kids come up with from the assignments.

[HomeScholar]

My DS11 was an accelerated learner in PS, but he never liked writing. He could do it to the satisfaction of the teachers, but he hated every bit of it. When we started HSing, I realized that while he could churn out papers, they weren't particularly good papers. :glare:

 

Since he has started WWS, he has been having fun digging into his writing and playing with words. We spend more item on the parts than on the final result. He turned 11 in Jan and since then I've seen great leaps in his analytical abilities. His writing has taken a step up as well. So it's slow but it's coming. The best part is, that he likes writing now.

 

I agree with Colleen, let him go at his own pace.

[Mom0012]

As to your question - I'm not sure. I can only tell you what my own kids have done. I think my son started analyzing things around age 10, but he was an early reader and inhaled books. He was also always intently observing everything around him. My 11yo daughter is just starting to analyze things that way, too. But only just starting. But I've seen mothers on here say that their kids at age 13, 14, don't think analytically yet, so it seems that there is a big range of individual possibilities. I don't think it's anything you can rush. But it is fun to watch when you start to seem glimmers of it happening.

 

About WWS - is your son prepared for it? Can he pretty easily take dictation? Can he summarize a couple of chapters in a story, or important details from a history or science book? Can he summarize AND write down his summary himself? (as in, even just 3-4 sentences) If he can, he can do WWS. WWS provides review on summarizing in the first few weeks, too.

 

You're right - WWS only teaches outlining to the second level, but you can fix that while still learning the other great stuff in it. Find a copy of the 3rd ed. WTM and look in the logic stage history section. There you will find the best outlining instructions eva! :D Use the questions in there to teach your son 3rd/4th level outlining, and then you can let him outline from any extra history and science reading (don't outline spines - use well-written paragraphs - it'll help him with the purpose of outlining - to show him how good paragraphs are structured - and it'll help him dig in more to his history and science learning).

 

As to the rest of WWS - there is so much good stuff in there. You can listen to SWB's logic stage writing audio and get good info., but when you go through WWS you realize that it's different because she cleverly takes some higher level skills and teaches them to younger students in a fun/interesting way they can understand. WWS tells the student and teacher every little step to take, and I am pleasantly shocked at what my kids come up with from the assignments.

 

Thanks so much Colleen. You have greatly encouraged me. I think he is ready for WWS, but maybe on the days he doesn't have to work on an assignment for his class, I could start doing some of WWE 3 with him (I used that with my daughter) and just see if he's as ready for it as I think. Then, maybe over the summer, I could work through a chunk of WWS with him and that will help me come to a decision. The writing teacher's policy is that if she can find replacement for him (which she easily will), she will give me back a good chunk of my money. I'm willing to take somewhat of a loss to hold his spot "just in case".

 

I am also going to definitely get ahold of the 3rd ed. of the WTM and read the sections you mentioned to get a better idea about the big picture.

 

Lisa

[Mom0012]

My DS11 was an accelerated learner in PS, but he never liked writing. He could do it to the satisfaction of the teachers, but he hated every bit of it. When we started HSing, I realized that while he could churn out papers, they weren't particularly good papers. :glare:

 

Since he has started WWS, he has been having fun digging into his writing and playing with words. We spend more item on the parts than on the final result. He turned 11 in Jan and since then I've seen great leaps in his analytical abilities. His writing has taken a step up as well. So it's slow but it's coming. The best part is, that he likes writing now.

 

I agree with Colleen, let him go at his own pace.

 

Thanks for your input! I think I am going to try WWS with him over the summer and see how it goes.

 

Lisa

[Colleen in NS]

...I could start doing some of WWE 3 with him ...I could work through a chunk of WWS with him...

 

If he is successful with WWE3, he can easily move into WWS. Good luck!

[PeterPan]

Just so you know, 12 has been worse than 11 ever was as far as writing. I wouldn't give yourself too hard a time. Find something he can do and do it. Stretch it a little more when he's ready to stretch. Some kids though go into a fog and don't come out for a while. If that happens to happen in your house, you don't have to feel guilty. ;)

 

As far as what is really helping? Getting nitpicky about what's really going on in her brain and not really assuming it's there. We like Scrivener and other software that can help them see structure. The Linguisystems executive function workbooks have some good sections for writing. Sometimes it turns out they really don't get structure yet, and until you get structure you're not ready to go writing 5 paragraph essays, kwim? Gotta go back to the root. Right now we're outlining articles from Muse magazine (quirky science stuff like nuclear cockroaches), and it seems to be worthwhile.

[Mom0012]

Just so you know, 12 has been worse than 11 ever was as far as writing. I wouldn't give yourself too hard a time. Find something he can do and do it. Stretch it a little more when he's ready to stretch. Some kids though go into a fog and don't come out for a while. If that happens to happen in your house, you don't have to feel guilty. ;)

 

As far as what is really helping? Getting nitpicky about what's really going on in her brain and not really assuming it's there. We like Scrivener and other software that can help them see structure. The Linguisystems executive function workbooks have some good sections for writing. Sometimes it turns out they really don't get structure yet, and until you get structure you're not ready to go writing 5 paragraph essays, kwim? Gotta go back to the root. Right now we're outlining articles from Muse magazine (quirky science stuff like nuclear cockroaches), and it seems to be worthwhile.

 

Hi Elizabeth -

 

I think that is an interesting comment you made about not getting the structure. My son does not pick up patterns well and I don't think he was recognizing the patterns of some of the paragraphs in the class he took this year until I actually typed up some of the teacher's sample paragraph's line-by-line and then cut them out in strips and had them put them in order. (I stole that from 8FilltheHeart and Writing Tales.:001_smile:)

 

Anyway, I know it's something we still need to focus on. I'll have to give Linguisystems another look.

 

Lisa

[8filltheheart]

How is his paragraph writing? Is it logical and cohesive? Does he have the ability to write several paragraphs in report form? If he has mastered those areas, I would not be concerned about the ability to analyze and write persuasively. I would simply continue on the report writing path. If he has not mastered those skills, I would focus on paragraph writing until mastered and then gradually move on to multi-paragraph writing.

[Mom0012]

How is his paragraph writing? Is it logical and cohesive? Does he have the ability to write several paragraphs in report form? If he has mastered those areas, I would not be concerned about the ability to analyze and write persuasively. I would simply continue on the report writing path. If he has not mastered those skills, I would focus on paragraph writing until mastered and then gradually move on to multi-paragraph writing.

 

I would say his paragraph writing is "okay". I have seen a huge improvement from the beginning of the year. He still has sentences in each paragraph he writes that are very awkward or unclear. If you ask him to write a paragraph involving a research subject, he can make an outline and write a logical paragraph with strong vocabulary. I can't say whether it is age-appropriate or not. If you ask him to write a paragraph describing pancakes or his room, it sounds like another kid wrote it -- a much younger kid. So, really, he seems to be able to do reasonably well writing about factual information from a source or from memory (especially if it is about history), but has great difficulty writing about his experiences. The paragraphs he has been doing for the IEW class are very long -- about a page -- and take him about 5 hours to do.

 

In writing this out, I guess that while he has improved, I can't say he has mastered the paragraph.

 

Thanks!

 

Lisa

[Colleen in NS]

I would say his paragraph writing is "okay". I have seen a huge improvement from the beginning of the year. He still has sentences in each paragraph he writes that are very awkward or unclear.

 

This is where diagraming comes in handy. When my kids write awkward sentences, I have them diagram them to figure out the problem. If the problem stems from a grammar concept they haven't learned yet, I just quickly explain it to them and suggest ways to fix it or see if they can word it less awkwardly - but on the grammar they don't know, I don't spend a lot of time - I suggest fixes and move on. With grammar they do know, I talk them through the problem they discover from diagraming, until the sentence is fixed.

 

If you ask him to write a paragraph involving a research subject, he can make an outline and write a logical paragraph with strong vocabulary. I can't say whether it is age-appropriate or not.

 

Just so you know for WWS - this is all that is expected before beginning WWS. And I try to close my eyes to the "age-appropriateness" for my son - all I know is that he is progressing with his skills.

 

If you ask him to write a paragraph describing pancakes or his room, it sounds like another kid wrote it -- a much younger kid.

 

WWS will cover writing descriptive paragraphs, in a well-explained manner.

 

So, really, he seems to be able to do reasonably well writing about factual information from a source or from memory (especially if it is about history), but has great difficulty writing about his experiences. The paragraphs he has been doing for the IEW class are very long -- about a page -- and take him about 5 hours to do.

 

In writing this out, I guess that while he has improved, I can't say he has mastered the paragraph.

 

But there are many different types of paragraphs, so I wouldn't worry about it. It seems to me that the majority of learning effort goes into learning grammar, thinking up sentences, putting them on paper, and then learning how to think about different types of paragraphs. Seems to me it can only get easier after that (with stringing paragraphs together into compositions), because this previous stuff is a lot of work! :D Also, WWS begins to show students how to string certain types of paragraphs together into short compositions - it's really neat to see the process.

[Mom0012]

But there are many different types of paragraphs, so I wouldn't worry about it. It seems to me that the majority of learning effort goes into learning grammar, thinking up sentences, putting them on paper, and then learning how to think about different types of paragraphs. Seems to me it can only get easier after that (with stringing paragraphs together into compositions), because this previous stuff is a lot of work! :D Also, WWS begins to show students how to string certain types of paragraphs together into short compositions - it's really neat to see the process.

 

Thanks again, Colleen. I just recently have gained enough knowledge about diagramming to approach his awkward sentences with this technique and it was kind of exciting to be able to have him diagram the sentence and see what was wrong. I'm hoping we'll be able to use that a lot. In the past, I knew the sentence was awkward, but often could not tell him why.

 

I'm reading through WWS this week to see if I think it would be a good fit for the summer.

 

Lisa