Please guess what grade are these math problems

[blessedmom3]

My son is preparing for a state standardized test and I found these in a newer ed public school math book.I am curious what other think :)

 

 

1) Mary and Lily, together bought a $46 gift .Mary spent $6 more than Lily. How much did Lily spent?

2) Eric has 12 trains.They are 4/5 of his whole collection. How many trains does he have?

3) Mark feeds 6 dogs. He has 7 cans, 12 oz each and he shares the food equally among the dogs. How much each dog will get?

Edited February 29, 2012 by blessedmom3

[In2why]

Second? Although the first question is more 1st grade. Before you worry though you have to remember that standardized tests have questions a couple of grades below and a couple of grades ahead. Which is why standardized test are proving to be a piss poor measure of actual learning.

[Perogi]

Looks like 3rd to me.

[boscopup]

They sound third gradish to me, mostly due to the fractions. The first question I could see being second grade.

[acrosier]

Yes, mid 3rd grade. What grade is it actually for?

[LucyStoner]

I would say 3rd or so.

[lilbean05]

The first question seems like a 1st grade math question, while the last one definitely seemed more along the lines of a 3rd grade question. I second what In2why says--I think they give a good range to help determine the level at which the student (or classroom or school) is performing on average.

[GingerPoppy]

Well, I've come across questions similar to the first and second in MM4--both would use bar models. In my experience in the Canadian school system (where kids are, on average, younger in each grade) I wouldn't expect those questions before grade 5. (And I've taught in the school system, so I'm very familiar with it.)

 

I feel a bit like I've entered the twilight zone reading this thread. Grade 1?? I thought first graders were supposed to be learning basic stuff like adding and subtracting, not thinly veiled algebra. As for fractions "belonging" to grade 3, I wouldn't expect this type of fraction question to be reasonable for most third graders. Adding, subtracting, and comparing basic fractions--yes. Not this. Some third graders start their year as 7 year olds; I would only expect strong math kids or gifted ones to do those questions at those ages. Are people expecting these 6/7/8 year olds to be setting up the question like:

4/5 of n = 12 ? If so, I would put that in grade 7. Or are they meant to use a bar model? Guess and check? What??

 

I get that there are some very capable kids out there, but most kids are average. And I don't know any average Canadian kids who could do these questions at ages 6/7/8, unless they used the guess-and-check method, which I don't think is quite the same as doing the actual math for these questions.

[Carpe]

Well, I've come across questions similar to the first and second in MM4--both would use bar models. In my experience in the Canadian school system (where kids are, on average, younger in each grade) I wouldn't expect those questions before grade 5. (And I've taught in the school system, so I'm very familiar with it.)

 

I feel a bit like I've entered the twilight zone reading this thread. Grade 1?? I thought first graders were supposed to be learning basic stuff like adding and subtracting, not thinly veiled algebra. As for fractions "belonging" to grade 3, I wouldn't expect this type of fraction question to be reasonable for most third graders. Adding, subtracting, and comparing basic fractions--yes. Not this. Some third graders start their year as 7 year olds; I would only expect strong math kids or gifted ones to do those questions at those ages. Are people expecting these 6/7/8 year olds to be setting up the question like:

4/5 of n = 12 ? If so, I would put that in grade 7. Or are they meant to use a bar model? Guess and check? What??

 

I get that there are some very capable kids out there, but most kids are average. And I don't know any average Canadian kids who could do these questions at ages 6/7/8, unless they used the guess-and-check method, which I don't think is quite the same as doing the actual math for these questions.

 

Everything I've read about the US implies that this (bolded) is not true. Kids start K at 5 turning 6, then grade 1 is 6 turning 7, then grade 2 is 7 turning 8, grade 3 is 8 turning 9, etc.

 

That having been said, I've seen all but the last kind of question in 2nd grade curriculum.

[4littleones]

Dc do such problems in Singapore 3B. I voted 4th.

[Mommy2BeautifulGirls]

Everything I've read about the US implies that this (bolded) is not true. Kids start K at 5 turning 6, then grade 1 is 6 turning 7, then grade 2 is 7 turning 8, grade 3 is 8 turning 9, etc.

 

That having been said, I've seen all but the last kind of question in 2nd grade curriculum.

 

It depends on the cutoff date. In our district, I believe it's Dec. 1st??? So my K'er needs to be 5 by Dec. 1st. That is why we homeschool. My bright daughter was reading at 3-1/2 with a Feb. birthday. We weren't going to wait 2 years for the state to be ready to teach her.

 

To add to the actual topic, :D, this seems more advanced than 2nd or 3rd grade to me.

[Deniseibase]

I've been tutoring public school kids in our wealthy and award-winning school district. The average public school kids in my area would not do this kind of work before 5th or 6th grade. Of course that will vary depending on the curriculum used by the district.

[chepyl]

I voted third, but that is what I expect in SM level 3, CWP. So I guess in PS it really might be 4th or 5th, but I don't remember anything like that until 5th or 6th, maybe even 7th. So, I don't really have a clue.

[...................]

The first problem looks like 2nd but the other two look like 4th so I said 4th. In fact my son just learned those exact type of problems this year in 4th grade.

 

I could see someone voting 3rd though, because I know Singapire introduces those types earlier.

[boscopup]

Are you going to tell us? Pretty please...

 

:iagree::lurk5:

[3peasinapod]

I voted 4th. Like others, the first we have done, but the last 2 problems we have not reached yet in 3rd grade.

[CaffeineDiary]

I'm with GingerPoppy. Both the second and third questions require the ability to not just understand fractions, but to reason with them symbolically. I'd not expect the average kid to see that until the 5th grade, and frankly I mentally add a "difficulty point" for any question presented as a word problem rather than as a simple math statement.

 

The first problem is subtle. At first glance it looks like basic division and addition. But read another way it could be viewed as a simple pre-algebra problem where you are expected to set up two equations and solve one equation by substitution. In which case it might just be a very simple example of the type, and glancing at it and saying "I can figure that out in my head, duh" is the same thing as doing it wrong.

 

So I voted '5th grade', but the more I read these, the more I'm thinking 6th grade, frankly.

[ErinE]

I voted third because Singapore has similar word problems in its CWP.

[mom@shiloh]

I voted for fifth grade because it is a word problem and because it involves fractions and multi-step reasoning.

[antsam]

I voted 3rd because we've had problems like that fraction one in our Saxon 3 this year. My son can't figure it out algebraically (sp?) but can draw a picture and figure it out. Since Saxon spirals, we've had problems similar to the others as well.

 

Jodie

[LisaKinVA]

I voted 5th. From what I've seen, average 3rd grade texts are teaching fractions, but not using word problems, let alone multi-step word problems. That last one requires one to multiply 7*12 and then divide by 6. That probably would be in the 4th grade, now that I look at it.

 

These word problems would require the use of models (or algebra)...understanding the concept of divisibility (beyond grouping).

 

I could see it as possibly 4th, but my son is doing problem solving like this in MM5 (we never used MM4, so I don't know about that one). I know it's not in MM1A :D

Edited February 29, 2012 by LisaK in VA

[Sherry in OH]

MEP must be really advanced. We're seeing this sort of problem in Year 1. I voted 2nd. All of the problems can be solved using drawings or manipulatives.

[Greenmama2]

Well I'm hanging out to know too. The first one seems around 1st grade to me, the others more like 3rd.

[Mommyfaithe]

I am assuming it is an American test....so I voted 4 th grade. My kids learn those sorts of problems in 2nd and 3rd, but they are not on the test until about 4th...

Faithe

[MissKNG]

Waiting....patiently...for the grade level "answer"! :lol:

[MissKNG]

I'm waiting rather impatiently. :tongue_smilie:

 

haha! I just jumped on WTM and saw the thread, so I'm patient....for now!:D

[kathymuggle]

I voted 6. Maybe 5.

 

The first is basic algebra, the second involves multiplying fractions and the third seems a bit easier to me - like it could be 4 or 5.

 

I am in Canada, btw, and have seen the Canadian curriculum (similar to another poster)….that might be the difference.

[Meriwether]

MEP must be really advanced. We're seeing this sort of problem in Year 1. I voted 2nd. All of the problems can be solved using drawings or manipulatives.

 

I voted 4th. My daughter could have done these kinds of problems in third, but I wouldn't assume every third grader could. I voted based on when I thought most kids would be able to look at the problem and either immediately know the answer or do it in their heads. I don't think there would be a lot of time for drawings on the test and I really doubt the kids would have access to manipulatives.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Meriwether

[Chris in VA]

I voted 4th. The PP is right, however, about standardized tests having problems above and below grade level.

[warneral]

Really? 2nd or 3rd? I don't think that finding 4/5 of 12 (I would need paper and pencil) is something that such young kids are doing.... not from my experience!

[KnitWit]

We use Singapore and I voted 2nd. My son had problems like these in the 2B book I believe.

[BatmansWife]

I voted 6th. Only because I think the answer will be shocking.

 

:001_smile:

[Lucy the Valiant]

I voted 3rd - my twins are in 3rd in Singapore and do these kind of things.

[woolybear]

I voted 5th. I think those word problems involving fractions seem pretty advanced. Maybe I (and dc) are just behind the norm.....:001_huh:

[Halcyon]

I voted 4th, because this sort of material is covered in 3rd grade in MM and SM and I think in 4th grade in PS. MAYBE it's 3rd grade, but given the overall dumbing down of PS curricula, I'm going for 4th.

[KnitWit]

I voted 3rd - my twins are in 3rd in Singapore and do these kind of things.

 

Yes, I stand corrected. My kids just reminded me that it's the 3rd grade books.

[SorrelZG]

MEP must be really advanced. We're seeing this sort of problem in Year 1. I voted 2nd. All of the problems can be solved using drawings or manipulatives.

 

This is what confuses me in regard to MEP because while this is the case, it's also the case that in many threads I read people saying its "behind" so year one is really for our kindergarteners. :confused: I'm not sharing that to question you, just expressing my confusion with this board and math (not the first time but I'm still confused :tongue_smilie:).

 

Obviously from this thread people are all over the place in regard to math so it's not helping.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I would not expect most 6 and 7 year olds (1st graders) to do the first one. If the question was, "Mary and Lily, together bought a $46 gift .Mary spent $6. How much did Lily spent?" then YES, it would be 1st grade. But that wasn't the question.

 

Knowing the OP was using Singapore, I would have guessed it was the 3rd grade, maybe 4th grade level. I don't know that most 4th graders in this country can do those problems in a timely fashion using anything that looks like math though.

Edited February 29, 2012 by 2J5M9K

[KnitWit]

Obviously from this thread people are all over the place in regard to math so it's not helping.

 

Well, I just want to encourage you that, unless you are going to work your child back into the *system*, just pick a curriculum and stick with it. They do basically all end up at the same place. kwim? Choose what works best for your child to teach all the basic math functions and prepare them for upper level math. You may not cover it at the same level as another family, but you will all end up at the same place by the time you are ready for the higher math courses.

 

If you are in a state that requires standardized testing each year then, of course, you will need to take that into consideration as well when you make your choice. :grouphug:

[Wheres Toto]

I would not expect most 6 and 7 year olds (1st graders) to do the first one. If the question was, "Mary and Lily, together bought a $46 gift .Mary spent $6. How much did Lily spent?" then YES, it would be 1st grade. But that wasn't the question.

 

 

 

That's what I was thinking. With a quick read it seems a pretty easy, straightforward questions. But it actually involves slightly more advanced concepts.

 

I voted 3rd grade because I just flipped through MM3 and saw similar problems.

[In2why]

MEP must be really advanced. We're seeing this sort of problem in Year 1. I voted 2nd. All of the problems can be solved using drawings or manipulatives.[/quote

 

I also thought they would involve bar graphs, manipulatives, or have illustrations. If they were presented as straight out word problems I would guess 4th grade.

[blondeviolin]

I voted 5th because I don't believe most adults have a firm grasp on fractions! And IIRC, multiplication of fractions was covered in 5th grade when I went to school.

[Snickerdoodle]

nm

[Snickerdoodle]

Eric has 12 trains.They are 4/5 of his whole collection. How many trains does he have?

 

Does anyone else think this is worded strangely?

 

If he *HAS* 12 trains, doesn't that mean that 12 trains constitute the entirety of his collection? Or do I speak another language?

 

Wouldn't it be better worded as, for example:

 

12 of Eric's trains are working properly. The working trains are 4/5 of his collection. How many trains does his collection contain?

[Dmmetler]

Having tutored math in PS, I'd say 4th, maybe 3rd depending on the test. 1, 2, and most of 3 are very recall, basic facts level without a lot of word problems. At 3rd about half the test is word problems, and by 4th+, almost the entire test will be word problems.

[Dmmetler]

I must be way off by voting 6th. I can remember encountering tbese types of problems in 7th grade prealgebra, and I was in advanced math (and went on to get a BS in math). I don't think any of my kids could have done it any sooner than, say, 5th at the earliest. Am I living in an alternate universe?

 

 

My experience with standardized tests here is that there's no middle-either the problems are very, very basic recall level, or they're ones that you look at as an adult and go "you expect them to solve this??? Really????!!!???", that are designed to shake out above level kids. You can miss a LOT of questions and still meet expectations. And all of these problems are such that they're amenable to solution via drawing a picture, even if you cannot yet set them up formally.

[Charles Wallace]

I would guess fourth grade.

 

PLZ TELL US.

[Jenny in GA]

I must be way off by voting 6th. I can remember encountering tbese types of problems in 7th grade prealgebra, and I was in advanced math (and went on to get a BS in math). I don't think any of my kids could have done it any sooner than, say, 5th at the earliest. Am I living in an alternate universe?

 

 

:iagree:

 

I was thinking, "Wow, there must be something wrong with us, because my fifth grader was just doing fraction problems like that last week!"

 

I, too, was in advanced math classes growing up and am very surprised to see so many people calling these third and fourth grade problems.

 

I really wish the OP would not only give us the "answer," but also tell us why she even started this thread in the first place. Obviously something about it must have surprised her. What, and why?? :confused:

[ErinMarie123]

I must be way off by voting 6th. I can remember encountering tbese types of problems in 7th grade prealgebra, and I was in advanced math (and went on to get a BS in math). I don't think any of my kids could have done it any sooner than, say, 5th at the earliest. Am I living in an alternate universe?

 

I feel better reading your post. I also voted 6th (and also have my degrees in math - we're practically related! haha)

 

My oldest is only in 1st grade so I'm not in the standardized test realm yet (but living in PA will be shortly...ugh). But in my mind I solved these algebraically, perhaps b/c that's how my mind works, so I figured 6th grade would be close.

 

Is the point of the standardized test to make sure students already know the stuff, or are they more curiosity tests to find out what the student knows? I thought they were the former. Maybe a 2nd grader *can* do these problems, but I wouldn't think it would be expected of a student until they were much older.

 

Just my $0.02!

[Dmmetler]

I feel better reading your post. I also voted 6th (and also have my degrees in math - we're practically related! haha)

 

My oldest is only in 1st grade so I'm not in the standardized test realm yet (but living in PA will be shortly...ugh). But in my mind I solved these algebraically, perhaps b/c that's how my mind works, so I figured 6th grade would be close.

 

Is the point of the standardized test to make sure students already know the stuff, or are they more curiosity tests to find out what the student knows? I thought they were the former. Maybe a 2nd grader *can* do these problems, but I wouldn't think it would be expected of a student until they were much older.

 

Just my $0.02!

 

There's some of both. Most standardized tests include a handful of challenge problems, designed to shake out the kids who will benefit from additional instruction. Many schools use scoring over the 90% or 95% as eligibility for higher track classes, especially when kids are going into middle school,or to identify the kids who might qualify for GT. As I mentioned, "Meets expectations, being right on grade level" is usually only getting about half the questions correct, which can be really, really tough for perfectionist kids who don't realize, going in, that they're NOT expected to get the entire test right. There are also problems on tests that are below grade level, which are designed to help quantify where to start-that is, OK, this 6th grader can't multiply, but can he add and subtract?

 

Ultimately, though, what Standardized tests show best is how good a child is at taking standardized tests-which doesn't necessarily correlate to how good a child is at anything else academic.