How can I help her think more logically?

[heidip2p]

I have a middle schooler who is an amazing young lady. I think sometimes she struggles with thinking things out logically? Is there a gentle way I can help her with this? She is my oldest and I can truly see where I just assumed some things would be learned naturally. Thanks for any help:)

[Ester Maria]

Can you provide *concrete examples* of what she struggles with? It would be a lot easier to talk about this if it is more concrete than vague. :)

[Josie]

Without knowing specifics it is hard to say, but have you considered that the issues may be a function of maturity rather than logic? I know with our first I always assumed she was more mature because she was ahead academically. This is not always, indeed may rarely be, the case.

[angela in ohio]

How old is she? Some of this really does just come with age and maturity.

 

I approach it from two points of attack: (1.) a formal Logic curriculum, and (2.) a "scaffolding" approach: I model out loud the way I arrive at a logical conclusion, slowly using a question and answer format to require dd to provide more and more.

[heidip2p]

How old is she? Some of this really does just come with age and maturity.

 

I approach it from two points of attack: (1.) a formal Logic curriculum, and (2.) a "scaffolding" approach: I model out loud the way I arrive at a logical conclusion, slowly using a question and answer format to require dd to provide more and more.

I know I have dropped the ball with her as far as using a formal logic curriculum. That is what I need to add in for her.

Thank you so much for the second idea. That is great. I will use that for sure.

She is almost 13, Maybe I am just expecting too much too soon.

[Roxy Roller]

I have a middle schooler who is an amazing young lady. I think sometimes she struggles with thinking things out logically? Is there a gentle way I can help her with this? She is my oldest and I can truly see where I just assumed some things would be learned naturally. Thanks for any help:)

 

I know I have dropped the ball with her as far as using a formal logic curriculum. That is what I need to add in for her.

Thank you so much for the second idea. That is great. I will use that for sure.

She is almost 13, Maybe I am just expecting too much too soon.

 

I could have written your posts!

 

My DD, who is my oldest, is 12 1/2. We started out 7th grade this year using Fallacy Detective, but I found that even most of that was going over her head. She just didn't seem to grasp the concepts. I have gone to using the Building Thinking Skills books, to work on those skills for the rest of the year, then we will hopefully be able to pick up Fallacy Detective(again) and Thinking Toolbox for 8th. I will probably move into Traditional Logic in 9th.

 

My DD is barely starting into puberty, so I really think that it is a maturity issue, here. I think that I was expecting too much too soon!

[Roxy Roller]

How old is she? Some of this really does just come with age and maturity.

 

I approach it from two points of attack: (1.) a formal Logic curriculum, and (2.) a "scaffolding" approach: I model out loud the way I arrive at a logical conclusion, slowly using a question and answer format to require dd to provide more and more.

 

I like the idea of modelling logic. I need to work on that with my DD.

[angela in ohio]

I know I have dropped the ball with her as far as using a formal logic curriculum. That is what I need to add in for her.

Thank you so much for the second idea. That is great. I will use that for sure.

She is almost 13, Maybe I am just expecting too much too soon.

 

Imho, that's about the right age to start seeing some big jumps in their thinking. You're right on the brink, but you do have to help it along.

 

I try to "think through" a lot of things out loud in front of my dc. And I ask them to do the same, and we discuss the differences. I try to present them with the tools they need to discuss logic, too - the vocabulary of ideas. Much of this comes from logic curriculum, but also from me sharing what I've read about classical education and logic.

 

This isn't going to copy very well, but I'm going to c/p part of a talk I did at our state convention a few years ago on teaching this stage with a few ideas...

 

VI) Dialectic

A) Jr high years – children are full of questions, they are trying to grasp the facts they have been taught and how they relate to each other, they seek understanding

1) two mistakes parents can make

(a) allow open-ended and disrespectful questioning

(b) feel threatened by any questions – assume they are all rebellious

2) teach them skills of reasoning - how to critically question, analyze, evaluate, and discern causes, motives, means, purposes, goals, and effects

3) all boils down to helping student see “Why” in every situation

B) Three things parents need to do

1) Teach Logic as a formal subject – it is the science and art of reasoning well

(a) teach them proper argumentation

(b) teach them vocabulary for the way things relate to each other

© gives student a set of rules to help decide if he or she can trust the information given (give advertisement example)

(d) teach them difference between content and structure – look for errors in each

(e) study informal and formal logic

(i) formal – because it deals with form

(a) induction – scientific method

(b) deduction – algebra, categorical and propositional logic (Wilson/Nance series)

(ii) informal – everything that doesn’t deal directly with form

(a) fallacies (good clean family fun!) (Fallacy Detective)

1. example – appeal to authority – celebrities who tell us how to vote or parent

2. example – ad populum – “everybody’s doing it”

(b) statements, terms, definitions, etc.

1. example – learn that defining terms is important step to having an effective argument

2) Teach proper use of tools of logic

(a) parent analyzes the use of argumentation to see if they are being respectful

(b) Read the Bible daily and talk about current events – relate the events back to the Bible

© develop different styles of reading well – use either How to Read Slowly or How to Read a Book

(d) teach integration of all subjects

3) Teach logic of each subject

(a) looking for patterns and sets of relationships in each area

(i) Ask: How are ______ and ______ the same? How are they different? Is one the cause and the other the effect? Are they unrelated?

(b) use fewer textbooks – they don’t let child discover connections and question

© Repeat academic material over and over so that student reaches level of understanding and doesn’t just know facts

(d) history – move from discussing facts to discussing motives and morality (example – Patriot’s History book)

(e) math – move from arithmetic to algebra

(f) language – move from copying and memorizing to diagramming, learning how written materials are organized

(g) Latin – move from drilling paradigms and vocabulary to translation

(h) science – learning scientific method, good time for real experiments, see relationships and classifications

(i) geography – why do people live in certain places, how have geographic locations affected history (Why do people settle near water?, etc.)

(j) literature – move beyond asking what happened and who did it to why did it happen, what else could have happened, and what would you do

(i) Ask – What is the author’s main point? What proof or premises does he or she use to reach this conclusion? What is his or her worldview?

[angela in ohio]

I'm not sure how much help that is, because the outline is a mess. But the end gives an idea of what I for my dc. I take each subject and think of strategies for moving them to the next level of thinking, while also trying to teach the overall concepts (learning the vocabulary we use for relating ideas to each other, for example.)

 

I think 13 yo is the perfect age for a logic curriculum. There is a thread on the high school board at this very moment discussing doing a year of logic; that might be helpful.

 

I tend to see things best when they are written out, too. Maybe she is like that? I do a lot of mapping things out on paper.

 

I think, more than anything else, this is the big hurdle in education. It is easy to teach facts. That next level is a big jump, and I see a lot of homeschoolers get stuck teaching things in an elementary way all the way through high school. It is easy to measure how much info a student has memorized, but getting them to relate those ideas to each other, make connections, and then communicate that (rheroric) is harder.

Edited February 28, 2012 by angela in ohio

[Roxy Roller]

Imho, that's about the right age to start seeing some big jumps in their thinking. You're right on the brink, but you do have to help it along.

 

I try to "think through" a lot of things out loud in front of my dc. And I ask them to do the same, and we discuss the differences. I try to present them with the tools they need to discuss logic, too - the vocabulary of ideas. Much of this comes from logic curriculum, but also from me sharing what I've read about classical education and logic.

 

This isn't going to copy very well, but I'm going to c/p part of a talk I did at our state convention a few years ago on teaching this stage with a few ideas...

 

VI) Dialectic

A) Jr high years – children are full of questions, they are trying to grasp the facts they have been taught and how they relate to each other, they seek understanding

1) two mistakes parents can make

(a) allow open-ended and disrespectful questioning

(b) feel threatened by any questions – assume they are all rebellious

2) teach them skills of reasoning - how to critically question, analyze, evaluate, and discern causes, motives, means, purposes, goals, and effects

3) all boils down to helping student see “Why” in every situation

B) Three things parents need to do

1) Teach Logic as a formal subject – it is the science and art of reasoning well

(a) teach them proper argumentation

(b) teach them vocabulary for the way things relate to each other

© gives student a set of rules to help decide if he or she can trust the information given (give advertisement example)

(d) teach them difference between content and structure – look for errors in each

(e) study informal and formal logic

(i) formal – because it deals with form

(a) induction – scientific method

(b) deduction – algebra, categorical and propositional logic (Wilson/Nance series)

(ii) informal – everything that doesn’t deal directly with form

(a) fallacies (good clean family fun!) (Fallacy Detective)

1. example – appeal to authority – celebrities who tell us how to vote or parent

2. example – ad populum – “everybody’s doing it”

(b) statements, terms, definitions, etc.

1. example – learn that defining terms is important step to having an effective argument

2) Teach proper use of tools of logic

(a) parent analyzes the use of argumentation to see if they are being respectful

(b) Read the Bible daily and talk about current events – relate the events back to the Bible

© develop different styles of reading well – use either How to Read Slowly or How to Read a Book

(d) teach integration of all subjects

3) Teach logic of each subject

(a) looking for patterns and sets of relationships in each area

(i) Ask: How are ______ and ______ the same? How are they different? Is one the cause and the other the effect? Are they unrelated?

(b) use fewer textbooks – they don’t let child discover connections and question

© Repeat academic material over and over so that student reaches level of understanding and doesn’t just know facts

(d) history – move from discussing facts to discussing motives and morality (example – Patriot’s History book)

(e) math – move from arithmetic to algebra

(f) language – move from copying and memorizing to diagramming, learning how written materials are organized

(g) Latin – move from drilling paradigms and vocabulary to translation

(h) science – learning scientific method, good time for real experiments, see relationships and classifications

(i) geography – why do people live in certain places, how have geographic locations affected history (Why do people settle near water?, etc.)

(j) literature – move beyond asking what happened and who did it to why did it happen, what else could have happened, and what would you do

(i) Ask – What is the author’s main point? What proof or premises does he or she use to reach this conclusion? What is his or her worldview?

 

Thank you for this! I sure wish Alberta and Ohio were closer! I would love to have you over for coffee, Angela. I get so much information from your posts.:001_smile:

Edited February 28, 2012 by Roxy Roller
spelling

[angela in ohio]

You know, I've been thinking about something else, too. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish between bad logic and no logic, but there really is a difference. It hcan be disheartening when you see what you think it illogical thinking, but soemtimes what you are seeing is a newly blossoming mind trying things out and getting them wrong. I hope I'm making sense. So if your dd makes a connection, and it's a wrong one, it's still making a connection. I have had to learn to separate my critique of the process from the results. So you may have to tell them that the result was wrong, but encourage the way they got there.

 

I thought of this as my dd was learning to drive. She can't drive until she has practiced, and the practice looks scary. Why wouldn't that also apply to using logical thinking? :001_smile:

[Colleen in NS]

It hcan be disheartening when you see what you think it illogical thinking, but soemtimes what you are seeing is a newly blossoming mind trying things out and getting them wrong. I hope I'm making sense. So if your dd makes a connection, and it's a wrong one, it's still making a connection. I have had to learn to separate my critique of the process from the results. So you may have to tell them that the result was wrong, but encourage the way they got there.

 

:iagree: and something else I do is ask my kids lots of questions. If they are thinking out loud at me about something, and they tell me their conclusions, and if I think the conclusions have missed the mark, I will go back to the point I think they went astray, and ask questions. I find this helps them to clarify their thinking as they are talking at me.

 

I also let my kids "win" at arguing for something (that isn't one of my hills to die on). The other day I told my daughter to do a one-level outline from World Book. The article contained two sections. The first section had five paragraphs; the second section had two paragraphs. She told me she didn't think it made sense to include both sections on one outline; because one was about how elevators work, and the other was about safety features on elevators. She asked if she could just do the section with five paragraphs, about how elevators work, because it would be more sensible in one outline. I agreed. But not until she clearly talked me through her reasoning (with help from my questions - "what do you mean, can you only do five paragraphs instead of seven? Why should I let you?" :D Her first answer was something like, "Because there are two sections and it doesn't make sense." me: "Well, what are the two sections? What doesn't make sense?" and so on until her argument was clear). And then she got the biggest grin on her face, because she was so proud of herself for having satisfied my requirement to be clear (and for having to outline fewer paragraphs, but actually, THAT part wasn't the big deal to her - she really was glad she had been able to articulate).

[AngelBee]

taking notes....I too like the idea of modeling outloud.