Robin in DFW Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I need to get my ds14, 9th grade, working through an organized, thorough writing program for the next few years. We have piddled around with various programs, starting and not completing anything, mostly because I find them tedious, complicated and boring. We have attempted the following prior to high school: Jensen's Format Writing, Writing Strands 3 (actually did most of this one), IEW SWI-B (son got tired of doing KWO and rewrites...I wasn't sure how to adjust), Spectrum Writing, some others I can't remember, and just doing our own thing...narrations, summaries, outlining, coming up with my own prompts for Literature essays, research projects, etc. I have been reading the lastest "writing" thread with great interest, but much apprehension and confusion. I do not want to use that many resources nor do I want the whole process to be complicated. I HAVE many of the books talked about...purchased them over the years as recommended in TWTM. I can't seem to do anything with them. I need something that lays it all out, but still allows for individuality. I do want my ds to be able to express himself in writing adequately, to write essays for literature or history or science and to know how to organize his thoughts for these assignments. He doesn't particularly enjoy writing, but does enjoy the finished product, especially when it turns out well. I want something that covers the various types of writing one might need in order to produce solid writing for any high school level assignment and move that into acceptable college level papers. Both of my daughters can write quite well and did not have much instruction from me. One dd is a journalism major, but she went to PS so I had nothing to do with her ability. My other dd (homeschooled) says writing programs did not help her (and I tried a few with her). She says just writing for various assignments and using models (Writer's Inc. Handbook) was most helpful for her. It just happens for them. Both have done very well in their college composition courses. It has been a bit more challenging for my son. I don't want to stifle any creativity or ideas he might have (he tends to freeze up if I critique too much), or cause him to write in a stilted fashion because he is adhering to some writing formula. I do want him to understand how different types of writing should be organized and presented and then have him work on it. I have been paralyzed by this and haven't done much with him for writing this year. We do write, but I feel there needs to be some order to it all and there needs to be more regularly scheduled writing instruction. We have talked about the different types of papers one might be asked to write, but we haven't "done" them. The process is holding me up. I'm stymied... Please offer some gentle advice...I've beat myself up over this already. Thanks, Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Writing Strands. There's an on-line writing course called WriteGuide that you might consider; maybe your ds will take correction better when it's impersonal, KWIM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 ::::groan:::: I feel your pain, Robin! And we are just finishing high school with the last one, so I still don't feel like I ever figured it out... Alas, no help or suggestions of just one program. But here are some GREAT thoughts in these past threads, and you might find the writing program that Nan in Mass recommended in that middle thread of interest. Wishing you MUCH BETTER luck than I had in your high school boy writing journey! Warmest regards, Lori D. Dissatisfied with ALL writing programs so far Wow! I think I fixed my son's writing! Resources for teaching writing for high school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trilliums Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Definitely feel the pain here too. :D :bigear::bigear: All ears for suggestions and ideas. Did he watch the SWI lesson on reports? I think this was Unit 4 in SWI B. I know my kids were sick of the KWO approach, but that unit did help DS write reports using multiple sources. Still leaves a lot to be desired though, imo. I wish the program did fewer KWO lessons and more report writing lessons. The kids are currently using Writing With Skill (surprisingly good for my teens) along with Lively Art of Writing. I have definitely seen some progress. My kids have issues with dyslexia and writing has been an ongoing struggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 We have always rather loosely followed SWB writing suggestions for earlier grades, but without any formal instruction (her writing curriculum had not been started yet). I have seriously considered using WWS, but was worried it would not cover the appropriate high school level types of writing. I did read in another post that some are using it for their high schoolers. I'm not sure my ds needs so much foundational work as he needs basic instruction for different types of papers, thesis statements, organization, etc. He has done tons of narrations, summaries, KWOs, outlining but needs to focus more on the actual final product now. I'm wondering if the IEW SWI-C would work...has anyone just used the high school IEW program with success. I do have the Essay Intensive course...my dd used it before taking the SAT...my ds could use that after SWI-C...just musing... Thanks Lori D., Ellie and Trillium for your suggestions... Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LivingHope Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My brother in law uses IEW's super essay format for his seminary college papers. He continues to impress his theology professors and gets high scores for his organized, well thought out essays. And he is 38 years old! I personally have been blessed by going to a conference with both Andrew Kern (The Lost Tools of Writing) and Andrew Pudewa (IEW). Both Andrews compliment each other. The Lost Tools of Writing helps with what to say and how to say it, and IEW's essay structure holds it all together. One thing that Mr. Pudewa said was that once his basic essay format has been practiced, variations of this format are recommended for different situations. I can now see the larger goal of IEW (beyond key word outlines) since going to this conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 I am looking into IEW, again. Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan C. Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Robin, There is hope for you and I have been to the other side and can tell you to not worry! Ds is about to graduate college as an English major. In our homeschool, he was a very reluctant writer. These frustrated creatives.... Dd18 is loving The Lively Art of Writing. We are finished this year with homeschooling, she is graduating, no more kids after her. We were going through our large stack of writing books (want to buy them at a fabulous deal?), they have helped over the years, but as a senior, she said she likes LAoW best. Next she will look at Strunk & White's Elements of Style. We are also working through Windows to the World. She also borrows ds books from college, one is a favorite, A Writer's Reference by Diana Hacker. I love going to the college bookstore at ds college and seeing what the English professors like. Don't worry about piece mealing your writing program, writing is the sort of thing that you keep building your skills with, and different authors and programs broadens the input. Dd and I watched Andrew Pudewa videos borrowed from a friend, the parent ones, the initial seminar (what is it called?) and dd said that was enough. We watched just for input, and are not doing dress ups, etc. We started the SWI-B and dd said it was repeat and overkill. She is going to be an English major as well after ds glowing reports of his classes. I do think ds enjoyed improving his writing at college, letting his college friends read and give input about his papers, and letting professors mark up the papers with me out of the loop. That may be your biggest problem at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinL in Canada Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Since your son is already familiar with the IEW approach and presumably knows a bit about style (varying sentence structures, etc) and about topic sentences for paragraphs, then I'd suggest moving on to IEW's The Elegant Essay and then Windows to the world (lit analysis). Both will guide him through basic models for straightforward yet effective essay writing--expository, persuasive, and literary analysis/ persuasive. I'm not a fan of everything in these books, but they are easy tot follow/ implement and will give him a solid basis for this type of writing. You will need to feel able/ comfortable, though, with evaluating his work in light of the programs' instructions. Since she provides rubrics for grading/ evaluating, though, that shouldn't really be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have LAoW, along with about 20 other products I can't seem to wrap my head around :glare:... Upon further review of the huge WWS file I was so graciously given by the PHP people, this seems to be what I am looking for as far as preciseness and organization goes. I am going to look at it more over lunch. I realize WWS is for the logic stage student, BUT, my ds is one of those borderline 8th/9th grade kids with a wonky summer birthday...I could just cut him some slack and allow him some time to work through this...hmmm... Although IEW seems appealing, I keep remembering the dread with which my ds approached those video lessons...and all those KWOs...and rewrites...and then there's Writing Strands---I really tried to work with this program---I like the author's ideas, but it always seemed unorganized to me---I wasn't quite sure how all the lessons would eventually fit together to help the student actually produce something organized...I don't know... What I do know is I want something that doesn't just show my ds what the different types of writing are, but shows him how to get there and to actually go about it in an orderly fashion. Honestly, I like SWB's method better. It seems more organized somehow...gosh, I wish my ds was just a bit younger...and I was a bit wiser...:tongue_smilie: Off to peruse WWS some more... Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trilliums Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 As I understand it from reading and fretting over it (but no personal experience beyond SWI B) you would want to go to the Student Intensive Continuation Course. I believe the SWI C contains similar info as SWIB but it is aimed at an older student. I just looked up the student continuation course. Yikes! $240. Other, less expensive options are listed for essay writing. I am not sure which ones focus on the super essay format though. Anyone have input on the best IEW essay writing programs? :) My 9th grader does not find WWS overly juvenile. He is very mature and serious teen who reads scientific texts in his spare time (just to illustrate that he is not very juvenile himself). The assignments are not difficult for him but i still think they benefit him. His Writings from WWS are much more sophisticated than my 8th grader's work. I find WWS less juvenile than SWIB. In the few writing threads for older students that have come up lately, I have been reluctant to suggest WWS because I feel as though my kids are behind in some ways. WWS has helped shore up some of these deficits and they are only on week 8. The most useful component has been rewriting chronologies from the given outlines. The program helps break down the writing process in easy to hzndle chunks. For my kids, going directly to taking notes, organizing them in a coherent order, and then writing the chronology in their own words is still overwhelming. With WWS, they get to practice the individual components in a low key manner. Even though this not been particularly difficult or challenging for the kids, it is developing useful analytical and organizational skills for the writing process. Have you seen the 10 week sample available from The main WTM pge. You may be able to have your son skip the narrations and simple outlining instructions and focus on the chronological summaries. Honestly, sounds as though what your son could use is WWS at a bit higher level. For developing a thesis, I highly recommend the firstsection of The Lively Art of Writing. This book is very inexpensive and probably represents the best return on monetary investment. WWS also is a great value for the cost. I skipped the TM as I could see from the sample I was unlikely to need it. IEW seems so costly for the end result, but I understand it does have resale value. I just re-read your post and see you have the essay intensive from IEW. Do you find your son is not quite ready for it? Or perhaps he just does not want to get back into another IEW course? This was the case with my older son. After SWIB I got a history based writing course but DS just felt done with the whole approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) I vote for WWS. If you want to add something to WWS as you go through the program, check out this discussion. Kane and They Say, I Say are both very good. But you really can just use WWS for now. :001_smile: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3187803&highlight=college#post3187803 As your son masters each kind of assignment, just have him practice writing across the curriculum. Just keep plugging along with the instruction in WWS and spiral his practice with current topics from your history, science, and literature curriculum. Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Edited February 22, 2012 by Janice in NJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllaMinnowPea Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Since your son is already familiar with the IEW approach and presumably knows a bit about style (varying sentence structures, etc) and about topic sentences for paragraphs, then I'd suggest moving on to IEW's The Elegant Essay and then Windows to the world (lit analysis). Both will guide him through basic models for straightforward yet effective essay writing--expository, persuasive, and literary analysis/ persuasive. I'm not a fan of everything in these books, but they are easy tot follow/ implement and will give him a solid basis for this type of writing. You will need to feel able/ comfortable, though, with evaluating his work in light of the programs' instructions. Since she provides rubrics for grading/ evaluating, though, that shouldn't really be a problem. I think this is a great suggestion. Also, since you and your son are familiar with IEW, you could take the IEW principles and apply them to whatever he is reading now in other subjects. This is the approach we decided upon after going through a similar frustration with writing programs. My older 2 are in college now and they both have done extremely well on their papers and other written communication. They both felt like IEW prepared them well for their classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MicheleinMN Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 :lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 What I do know is I want something that doesn't just show my ds what the different types of writing are, but shows him how to get there and to actually go about it in an orderly fashion. WWS will show him how to do this. I vote for WWS. If you want to add something to WWS as you go through the program, check out this discussion. Kane and They Say, I Say are both very good. But you really can just use WWS for now. :001_smile: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3187803&highlight=college#post3187803 As your son masters each kind of assignment, just have him practice writing across the curriculum. Just keep plugging along with the instruction in WWS and spiral his practice with current topics from your history, science, and literature curriculum. Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey I, too, was going to point you (Robin) to this thread, and particularly this post. It was very helpful to me. My son is working through WWS right now. It's not juvenile (but that's how SWB operates anyway - treating kids like they can understand what she's talking about, without talking down at them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) After further review of IEW and WWS, I think we will go with WWS. I read through the WWS thread, especially the posts regarding high school use and how to incorporate more mature materials later on...very nice. I have the 20 week complimentary download to start with until I can afford the real thing so this really works out great for me. The thought of spending money on IEW was giving me cramps. I already have The New Oxford Guide to Writing to use later. I also have A Rulebook for Arguments (just in case) and Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition as well. I do have another question with regard to rounding out the language arts...what have you found to be easy and effective for vocabulary? An actual program or just using words from Literature that trip up the student? We've been doing Vocabulary Vine (roots) and using words from our Lit...didn't know if this was enough. Also, we are currenlty using Writer's Inc. Skillsbook for grammar. My son really likes this after years of hard-core grammar and diagramming. Any opinions on this? So far, it has done a great job of having him edit passages for punctuation. He will be editing for capitalization next and then a few other things. It then moves on to parts of speech. These are just workbooks, but quick and easy and they keep the grammar skills fresh. Just curious if anyone else has found success with this program. He uses the Writer's Inc Handbook for reference for the Skillsbook as it suggests. Thanks again! Great stuff as always! Robin Edited February 23, 2012 by Robin in DFW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 After further review of IEW and WWS, I think we will go with WWS. I read through the WWS thread, especially the posts regarding high school use and how to incorporate more mature materials later on...very nice. I have the 20 week complimentary download to start with until I can afford the real thing so this really works out great for me. The thought of spending money on IEW was giving me cramps. I already have The New Oxford Guide to Writing to use later. I also have A Rulebook for Arguments (just in case) and Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition as well. I don't know if this will be helpful or overwhelming, but I'll post it anyway; as I am currently finding it helpful, and it might pertain to your situation: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=348864 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Robin, I've read your post with interest b/c I'm in a similar situation w/my ds who is in 8th grade. Our writing experience has been rather piecemeal (WWE, WS, CW, etc) up to this point. I went to SWB's writing conference and she assured me if we stuck w/WWS through high school, he would be more than ready for college writing. Having said that, I did enroll ds in the BraveWriter Essay class-in large part b/c it's a short chunk of time, but it does cost $249. I do like our grammar program, AG, because it covers a lot of ground in a very short period of time. We're also enjoying MCT's CE as well. I had used SWO for vocab and tried pulling words from readings, but my dd thinks that CE is much better. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hello again, I would heartily recommend that you both pick up a copy of Kane. http://www.amazon.com/New-Oxford-Guide-Writing/dp/0195090594/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329994258&sr=8-1 And a copy of They Say, I Say This one has readings (material for practice): http://www.amazon.com/They-Say-Academic-Writing-Readings/dp/0393912752/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329994316&sr=1-1 Read them. Just curl up in a chair without your kids, grab a pencil, and start reading. They are not heavy, dense books. If you find Kane a bit meandering at first, jump right to Part III. Good stuff! If you still aren't sure if you have an understand of the kinds of writing assignments kids are supposed to master, pick up a prep book from your library for each of the AP English exams: AP English Literature or AP English Composition. Then grab one for the AP US History exam. Read about the different essay forms kids are expected to write. Add in the research paper, and that's about it. Those are the forms that kids are focusing on in schools that are "teaching to the test." Then go read through WWS. All of it. Read with a pencil. I suspect you will be smiling by the end. Use WWS. Be sure he is reading and following directions. Work with your child to be sure he is getting feedback. Apply the skills across the curriculum. And smile at the days to come. It's WAY more satisfying than reading about more and more and more curriculum. Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lauracolumbus Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Hello again, I would heartily recommend that you both pick up a copy of Kane. http://www.amazon.com/New-Oxford-Guide-Writing/dp/0195090594/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1329994258&sr=8-1 And a copy of They Say, I Say This one has readings (material for practice): http://www.amazon.com/They-Say-Academic-Writing-Readings/dp/0393912752/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329994316&sr=1-1 Read them. Just curl up in a chair without your kids, grab a pencil, and start reading. They are not heavy, dense books. If you find Kane a bit meandering at first, jump right to Part III. Good stuff! If you still aren't sure if you have an understand of the kinds of writing assignments kids are supposed to master, pick up a prep book from your library for each of the AP English exams: AP English Literature or AP English Composition. Then grab one for the AP US History exam. Read about the different essay forms kids are expected to write. Add in the research paper, and that's about it. Those are the forms that kids are focusing on in schools that are "teaching to the test." Then go read through WWS. All of it. Read with a pencil. I suspect you will be smiling by the end. Use WWS. Be sure he is reading and following directions. Work with your child to be sure he is getting feedback. Apply the skills across the curriculum. And smile at the days to come. It's WAY more satisfying than reading about more and more and more curriculum. Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Ah Janice, you are so wise. It's always been easier for me to read about curriculum than to actually read the curriculum, but it would be more satisfying than never finding the silver bullet. Thanks, Laura Edited February 23, 2012 by lauracolumbus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candid Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I suggest listening to the Middle School and High School talks from SWB called A Plan for teaching writing. Yes, she does use many of those resources, but not all at once and in a very simple way. I found her talks refreshing in terms of the simplicity and yet efficacious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Your point is well taken. Things go along pretty smoothly and then I start to fret over something or other. Lately, it's been writing and whether or not to try to start a 4-year History rotation, but do it in 3 1/2 (Geography in isolation has become a real snooze). My ds never gripes about anything I put before him, but I begin to feel like he needs more of a challenge sometimes, so I start to question what we are doing. I have the Kane book and have put the other one on my Amazon wish list along with WWS... I also have those talks by SWB on writing and some other ones too...I should listen to those again. I also need to decide about History and Great Books. My son indicated he would like to read from the Ancients list. I need advice now on how to cover the Ancients period by the end of our school year (mid-June) without losing too much. I did ask this in another thread...just thinking... I need to go sit by myself now and think this through. We will be starting WWS on Monday. My ds will be putting his notebook in order today. Thanks for all the great suggestions and guidance. All of you are always great. Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dragonfaerie1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 We have had a lot of success with this program. http://www.writeshop.com/ Both of our children attended one semester of high school and received high 80's and 90's in English. They are back home schooling now :001_smile:. They had been using the writeshop program prior to attending school and felt it prepared them very well for what the high school teachers required. One is an eager writer, the other reluctant. They both had success. Hope that helps! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Things go along pretty smoothly and then I start to fret over something or other. Lately, it's been writing... I have the Kane book... I also have those talks by SWB on writing... I need to go sit by myself now and think this through. Do I *ever* hear you right now. Sigh. Just when I think I've got a handle on something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Ah Janice, you are so wise. It's always been easier for me to read about curriculum than to actually read the curriculum, but it would be more satisfying than never finding the silver bullet. I hear you, too. And I agree that Janice is wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I hear you, too. And I agree that Janice is wise. I keep having visions of that Tootsie Roll Pop eating owl... my cold medicine is messing with my head today... Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Not sure what program would help, but writing often usually makes for good writers. I would separate what he writes on his own, his creative writing, from his school work writing. Personally I would never "correct" the creative writing as I wouldn't want to stifle the creative process and love for writing. Seton has a nice way of dealing with writing. We began writing with them in 8th and they start with sentence structure and paragraphs and move onto compositions. In 9th they do more work with book analysis papers and research papers and in 10th they add in persuasive essays, etc.. Any program that starts with the basics and builds on it should work well. ETA: SWB's writing program sounds like a very good one. : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therese Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Your point is well taken. Things go along pretty smoothly and then I start to fret over something or other. ... I have the Kane book and have put the other one on my Amazon wish list along with WWS... Robin Robin, I hear you about the fretting! There's something I've been fretting about recently and since you mentioned the Kane book, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread if I ask about it. My 12th grade dd needs some additional work in composition before she leaves for college, so I've been searching threads here for ideas. I came across a thread from about a year ago in which you mentioned that at the time your dd was in a similiar situation. You were going to have her read A Rulebook for Arguments, the Kane book and another book. Would you please share what she did and how it worked out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I'm stymied... Please offer some gentle advice...I've beat myself up over this already. Thanks, Robin Potter's School perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
didadeewiththree Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 We have had a lot of success with this program. http://www.writeshop.com/ Both of our children attended one semester of high school and received high 80's and 90's in English. They are back home schooling now :001_smile:. They had been using the writeshop program prior to attending school and felt it prepared them very well for what the high school teachers required. One is an eager writer, the other reluctant. They both had success. Hope that helps! Cheers! We use this too; my son and I really like it. I think its good for all grades anywhere from 6th-10th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin in DFW Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Dd did work through A Rulebook for Arguments...she just read through it. She also went through Elements of Style. I ended up just having her write regularly across subjects and that was it. There was not time for Kane or Corbett. I posted this A.M. on the Middle Grades board about what I have decided for ds...it's on the thread directed to Angela in Ohio and 8Filltheheart. I will probably have a go at the Kane book for ds, but not until much later in high school. Corbett...not so much... Good luck. I know I need it! Robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therese Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Thank you. I looked at Corbett yesterday, just the first few chapters. I think my dd could do TWTM approach for those. The drawback to that is that I know she doesn't have enough time to go through the whole book before next fall. I told her to look at both Corbett and A Rulebook today while I consider whether to buy Kane or not. The advantage to Kane is that it's shorter so she's more likely to finish it by the end of summer. Decisions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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