Is taking the AP necessary ...

[Teachin'Mine]

if the student has done work well beyond the scope of the AP exam?

 

For us, $85 could be much better spent than on a test. I'm thinking specifically of Calculus AB or BC. If the student will have taken Calc III and other more advanced classes, wouldn't the colleges assume that the Calc I and II were mastered the same as they assume that algebra taken before high school was mastered in order for the student to be taking pre-calc?

 

It's discouraging looking at college websites and realizing how many don't give credit for de classes. I'm wondering if that would change if the student got their AA degree and then applied as a transfer student - any btdt? Are full ride scholarships usually available to transfer students?

[amsunshine]

:lurk5:

[emubird]

It's going to depend on the college, and also how the student gets credit for Calc 3.

 

Is the Calc 3 something you are doing at home? Or is it college credit? If it's done at home, I think you're going to be out of luck on getting credit for any of the Calc without an AP test. Unless the college has it's own math placement test.

 

However, although many colleges have a math placement test, many of them only test to see if the student is ready for calculus. They may not test beyond that.

 

And there is variation in how hard those placement tests can be. Some colleges are resistant to giving kids calc credit unless they can do very well on a really hard test. Others have a more fair test. You likely won't know until the test is taken.

 

The other advantage of doing the AP test is that the student can take it while the subject is fresh, rather than waiting until they've started college.

 

You also might even be out of luck on getting calc credit if the college your child goes to doesn't accept credit from other places. This might even be an issue with the AP test.

 

The 85 dollars is a bit of a gamble. It may prove to be really useful and save a lot of time and money. Or it might do nothing. You won't know until it's too late to go back and change it.

 

However, as AP credit goes, the calc test tends to be one of the ones that colleges are more likely to give credit for. Really depends on the college, though.

 

If your child is already taking dual enrollment courses, the best bet might be to talk to advisers at that college. They may have a good idea which courses will transfer as credit to which colleges, particularly if it's at a community college.

[creekland]

I'm thinking it's going to depend upon the major chosen. A non-math major will likely mean you get credit for the math classes. A math dependent major would be less likely without a sufficient score on a math placement test.

 

I don't think I'd go back and do an AP test in this situation, but I might contact colleges my guy were interested in and running the situation by them before making that decision final.

 

Yesterday I ran my thoughts on AP tests for senior year by the pre-med adviser at UR and he totally confirmed my thoughts. (Yes to AP Psych as it'll open up more interesting classes and help avoid a basic one - no to AP Calc - retake the latter at the 4 year for an easy A to assist with college transition and a high college GPA).

[wapiti]

I would worry more about APs from the perspective of selective school admissions than whether credit will be given and/or undergrad requirements met. So, the answer would depend on the schools and degree programs involved.

[Barbara H]

For us' date=' $85 could be much better spent than on a test. I'm thinking specifically of Calculus AB or BC. If the student will have taken Calc III and other more advanced classes, wouldn't the colleges assume that the Calc I and II were mastered the same as they assume that algebra taken before high school was mastered in order for the student to be taking pre-calc?

[/quote']

 

Just a clarifying question: Where is the student taking Calc III? How are they getting admitted to the class? At many colleges the AP or college credit would be necessary to get the higher level placement. They also provide some outside validation for admissions purposes.

[Teachin'Mine]

Good questions. I wish I knew more about colleges she's considering, but we've not really put together any kind of list as yet. It's very hard to find schools which meet the different things she'd ultimately like. I know it's always a compromise, and we have to spend more time searching. That's another thread I've been putting off. :tongue_smilie:

 

Right now she's doing Saxon Calculus on her own and doing well. Her cc will give her a calculus placement test - I guess we'll request it at the end of this semester so we know what she should register for next semester. I'm guessing that she'll go into Calculus II as the starting class, but the results of the test and the department chair's recommendation will be what we'll go with. So, ideally the Calc III will be taken at the cc, but it will be as de and many of the more selective schools won't give credit for de classes - some will give credit for AP with a 4 or 5, some won't.

 

Dd intends to major in mathematics, but may decide to double major. That's the reason for wanting credit as it would be helpful to fit everything into 4 years, or even 3 if it's possible, if she got some credit for courses taken.

 

Thank you for any help in thinking this through. I keep running it around in my own head and all I come up with is that I don't know. :tongue_smilie:

[regentrude]

You can receive credit for courses which your DD self-studies if you request credit by examination. This is not the same as CLEP, because it is at the school's discretion what amount of knowledge they require for a specific course.

Most universities should have a way to test out of a course and receiving credit without taking the class by taking a comprehensive exam, usually given by the professor who is teaching the course. The way it works at our university is like this:

if a student comes in who wants to receive credit for my course without taking it, I administer a comprehensive exam which tests the content of my course and which tells me whether the student has the amount of knowledge I would require him to have if he were in my class. This is typically one of our final exams. If the student passes the exam, I sign a statement that he has received credit through an examination, and he takes it to the registrar. He will receive the credit for the course, but no grade, so it will not affect his GPA. If the student passes the test with a grade of A, the student will not only receive the credit, but the grade of A will be entered into his transcript and will count towards his GPA.

Every school will have different rules for the specifics, but the opportunity for credit by examination should be something that is generally available. You may want to check with the Registrar's Office of the schools your DD is interested in (I am not sure whether the Admissions Office would be knowlegeable).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Good questions. I wish I knew more about colleges she's considering' date=' but we've not really put together any kind of list as yet. It's very hard to find schools which meet the different things she'd ultimately like. I know it's always a compromise, and we have to spend more time searching. That's another thread I've been putting off. :tongue_smilie:

 

Right now she's doing Saxon Calculus on her own and doing well. Her cc will give her a calculus placement test - I guess we'll request it at the end of this semester so we know what she should register for next semester. I'm guessing that she'll go into Calculus II as the starting class, but the results of the test and the department chair's recommendation will be what we'll go with. So, ideally the Calc III will be taken at the cc, but it will be as de and many of the more selective schools won't give credit for de classes - some will give credit for AP with a 4 or 5, some won't.

 

Dd intends to major in mathematics, but may decide to double major. That's the reason for wanting credit as it would be helpful to fit everything into 4 years, or even 3 if it's possible, if she got some credit for courses taken.

 

Thank you for any help in thinking this through. I keep running it around in my own head and all I come up with is that I don't know. :tongue_smilie:[/quote']

 

I think you have to treat the two benefits of AP as two different topics.

 

The first benefit is that it can result in college credit, thus opening up options for the college student to take other courses. A lot of people have chimed in in past threads suggesting that taking validation within ones major can be a poor choice (moves you into more challenging courses at a pace that might be too fast, eliminates a chance to get a great grade in a majors course).

 

But the other benefit (imo, especially for a homeschooler) is that an AP exam score can quantify the level of the work done at home and demonstrate a student's readiness for college level work.

 

Probably every admissions office has stories of students (both homeschooled and traditionally schooled) whose transcripts looked great, but then who placed into college courses far behind what was expected. The stereotype is the homeschooler who has calculus on the high school transcript, then goes to dual enroll at the community college and is taking a college algebra class. There is disconnect that makes the admissions office wonder. (FWIW, I think there is a similar scrutiny of students who are taking a half dozen AP courses but only pulling 1s and 2s on the exams.)

 

So if you will meet the goal of having outside verification of ability with the CC course, AND it is a majors class that many would advise against taking validation credit for anyway; then maybe there isn't a strong argument for the AP exam.

[Barbara H]

If the placement you hope for is Calc II and the CC will place her there without AP AB exam then I think you are in good shape. We didn't have access to inexpensive dual enrollment options, so calc II would have cost us over a thousand dollars and also it was not very convenient because it was a five day a week class. So for us $85 for the BC calc test seem like a bargain as it lead to easy placement in Calc III.

[Teachin'Mine]

You can receive credit for courses which your DD self-studies if you request credit by examination. This is not the same as CLEP, because it is at the school's discretion what amount of knowledge they require for a specific course.

Most universities should have a way to test out of a course and receiving credit without taking the class by taking a comprehensive exam, usually given by the professor who is teaching the course. The way it works at our university is like this:

if a student comes in who wants to receive credit for my course without taking it, I administer a comprehensive exam which tests the content of my course and which tells me whether the student has the amount of knowledge I would require him to have if he were in my class. This is typically one of our final exams. If the student passes the exam, I sign a statement that he has received credit through an examination, and he takes it to the registrar. He will receive the credit for the course, but no grade, so it will not affect his GPA. If the student passes the test with a grade of A, the student will not only receive the credit, but the grade of A will be entered into his transcript and will count towards his GPA.

Every school will have different rules for the specifics, but the opportunity for credit by examination should be something that is generally available. You may want to check with the Registrar's Office of the schools your DD is interested in (I am not sure whether the Admissions Office would be knowlegeable).

 

Thank you Regentrude - I hadn't thought about this option at all.

[Teachin'Mine]

I think you have to treat the two benefits of AP as two different topics.

 

The first benefit is that it can result in college credit, thus opening up options for the college student to take other courses. A lot of people have chimed in in past threads suggesting that taking validation within ones major can be a poor choice (moves you into more challenging courses at a pace that might be too fast, eliminates a chance to get a great grade in a majors course).

 

But the other benefit (imo, especially for a homeschooler) is that an AP exam score can quantify the level of the work done at home and demonstrate a student's readiness for college level work.

 

Probably every admissions office has stories of students (both homeschooled and traditionally schooled) whose transcripts looked great, but then who placed into college courses far behind what was expected. The stereotype is the homeschooler who has calculus on the high school transcript, then goes to dual enroll at the community college and is taking a college algebra class. There is disconnect that makes the admissions office wonder. (FWIW, I think there is a similar scrutiny of students who are taking a half dozen AP courses but only pulling 1s and 2s on the exams.)

 

So if you will meet the goal of having outside verification of ability with the CC course, AND it is a majors class that many would advise against taking validation credit for anyway; then maybe there isn't a strong argument for the AP exam.

 

Thank you Sebastian - good points. All I've been thinking about is how it might be boring to repeat courses at the university level, but that might be better than the alternative of having only upper level classes to start off with instead of a few easier courses.

[Teachin'Mine]

If the placement you hope for is Calc II and the CC will place her there without AP AB exam then I think you are in good shape. We didn't have access to inexpensive dual enrollment options, so calc II would have cost us over a thousand dollars and also it was not very convenient because it was a five day a week class. So for us $85 for the BC calc test seem like a bargain as it lead to easy placement in Calc III.

 

Yes it was definitely a bargain for you! :)

[creekland]

 

Probably every admissions office has stories of students (both homeschooled and traditionally schooled) whose transcripts looked great, but then who placed into college courses far behind what was expected. The stereotype is the homeschooler who has calculus on the high school transcript, then goes to dual enroll at the community college and is taking a college algebra class. There is disconnect that makes the admissions office wonder. (FWIW, I think there is a similar scrutiny of students who are taking a half dozen AP courses but only pulling 1s and 2s on the exams.)

 

 

 

I have plenty of true stories of students who have received As in our Calc classes yet tested into remedial classes at 4 year schools. We rarely had a student who would get a 3 (or better) on the AP test. Now that our school has dropped AP, the teacher gets to decide who gets credit for Calc. It's good that many colleges require a math placement test... and it's no surprise that "college in the high school" is getting less respect from higher level colleges each year.

[Musicmom]

For whatever it's worth, here was our ds's experience:

 

Ds is a computer science major at a highly selective university. In high school he took AP Calculus A, B, and C, and then Multivariable Differential Calculus (the equivalent of Calc III I think), through EPGY. He never took the AP Calculus exam, mostly because we didn't want to use the AP credit--i.e. we knew he was headed for something requiring math and we didn't want an AP score to get him thrown into a high level class fresh out of high school, esp in the extremely challenging comp sci programs he was looking at.

 

Well, the summer before ds's freshman year, all the CS majors (whether they took the AP test or not) had to take the university's calculus placement test. Ds placed into their highest level calculus course, and that's where they had him start. But the most surprising thing happened!! Upon satisfactory completion of that course, he was given official credit for ALL of the previous calculus courses!!! So the AP test never mattered at all.

 

Now for dd, it's a different story. She's doing Thinkwell Calculus, and probably not headed for a college major that will require Calc. She will be taking the AP test, even though I initially wrestled with it because of the cost. We ultimately decided it would be good to have, both for outside grade verification/demonstration of course rigor and because the credit might come in handy (could get her out of a math requirement or free up a slot for some other elective.)

 

In your case, the CC grades would give outside grade verification for admission, so you could potentially make your decision about the AP test based on whether you think the AP credit would be useful. Most colleges give math placement tests, and if your dd ends up headed for a math-heavy major, placing into the right course (regardless of AP or DE credit) could be important. (And in fact, if my dd should decide to go into a major that requires Calc, I'd want her to take a placement test, not just use her AP credit.)

 

I don't know if this helps or not--it's just one person's experience, but maybe it can add a few thoughts to the pot. :001_smile:

[Photo Ninja]

It's discouraging looking at college websites and realizing how many don't give credit for de classes. I'm wondering if that would change if the student got their AA degree and then applied as a transfer student - any btdt? Are full ride scholarships usually available to transfer students?

 

I assume DE is different from concurrent enrollment, which is what my dc did. They enrolled at the cc and took classes at the cc while in high school. They received credit for all the cc courses they took when when they entered universities, both public and private in state, and public universities out of state. But all universities set their own policies.

 

My dd earned an AA at the cc, then transferred to a university. Because of her AA, all her general ed was considered complete by the university, and all her credits transferred. Yes, scholarships are available to transfer students, but it varies by university. My dd received a full tuition transfer scholarship to an out of state university, based on her cc grades. The university did not even want to see her high school transcript.

[Brigid in NC]

Is taking the AP exam necessary if the student has done work well beyond the scope of the AP exam?

 

For us' date=' $85 could be much better spent than on a test. I'm thinking specifically of Calculus AB or BC. If the student will have taken Calc III and other more advanced classes, wouldn't the colleges assume that the Calc I and II were mastered the same as they assume that algebra taken before high school was mastered in order for the student to be taking pre-calc?[/quote']

 

I would definitely check with the colleges your student is interested in. In our case, my ds got lots of credit for AP (and dual enrolled) classes, so that he will be graduating in three years, rather than four. So those $85 tests paid off in huge $$ savings. I'd suggest that you check to see if your student will automatically be "given" the credit hours for the earlier "assumed" courses (Calc I and II), or if you need an AP test or dual enrollment transcript for the credit hours to count toward your student's degree.

 

If your student is taking Calc III now, there may be no issue with moving right into Differential Equations (or whatever the next math is); however, without AP or DE, s/he may not be credited with the Calc I and Calc II hours.

 

Best,

~Brigid

Edited February 18, 2012 by Brigid in NC

[Teachin'Mine]

For whatever it's worth, here was our ds's experience:

 

Ds is a computer science major at a highly selective university. In high school he took AP Calculus A, B, and C, and then Multivariable Differential Calculus (the equivalent of Calc III I think), through EPGY. He never took the AP Calculus exam, mostly because we didn't want to use the AP credit--i.e. we knew he was headed for something requiring math and we didn't want an AP score to get him thrown into a high level class fresh out of high school, esp in the extremely challenging comp sci programs he was looking at.

 

Well, the summer before ds's freshman year, all the CS majors (whether they took the AP test or not) had to take the university's calculus placement test. Ds placed into their highest level calculus course, and that's where they had him start. But the most surprising thing happened!! Upon satisfactory completion of that course, he was given official credit for ALL of the previous calculus courses!!! So the AP test never mattered at all.

 

Now for dd, it's a different story. She's doing Thinkwell Calculus, and probably not headed for a college major that will require Calc. She will be taking the AP test, even though I initially wrestled with it because of the cost. We ultimately decided it would be good to have, both for outside grade verification/demonstration of course rigor and because the credit might come in handy (could get her out of a math requirement or free up a slot for some other elective.)

 

In your case, the CC grades would give outside grade verification for admission, so you could potentially make your decision about the AP test based on whether you think the AP credit would be useful. Most colleges give math placement tests, and if your dd ends up headed for a math-heavy major, placing into the right course (regardless of AP or DE credit) could be important. (And in fact, if my dd should decide to go into a major that requires Calc, I'd want her to take a placement test, not just use her AP credit.)

 

I don't know if this helps or not--it's just one person's experience, but maybe it can add a few thoughts to the pot. :001_smile:

 

Thank you for sharing your experience. May I ask if, in hindsight, your son is glad that he placed into a higher class? Did it help to make his college schedule easier to have fewer required classes to take, or was it more challenging to start out at the higher level?

[Teachin'Mine]

I assume DE is different from concurrent enrollment, which is what my dc did. They enrolled at the cc and took classes at the cc while in high school. They received credit for all the cc courses they took when when they entered universities, both public and private in state, and public universities out of state. But all universities set their own policies.

 

My dd earned an AA at the cc, then transferred to a university. Because of her AA, all her general ed was considered complete by the university, and all her credits transferred. Yes, scholarships are available to transfer students, but it varies by university. My dd received a full tuition transfer scholarship to an out of state university, based on her cc grades. The university did not even want to see her high school transcript.

 

Dual enrollment is the same as concurrent enrollment - the college courses count for college credit and for high school credit too. I can see universities in-state accepting the CC credits, but I am surprised that the out of state ones accepted them - that's great! Also wonderful to hear that the AA allowed your daughter to transfer and with a full scholarship - awesome!

[Teachin'Mine]

I would definitely check with the colleges your student is interested in. In our case, my ds got lots of credit for AP (and dual enrolled) classes, so that he will be graduating in three years, rather than four. So those $85 tests paid off in huge $$ savings. I'd suggest that you check to see if your student will automatically be "given" the credit hours for the earlier "assumed" courses (Calc I and II), or if you need an AP test or dual enrollment transcript for the credit hours to count toward your student's degree.

 

If your student is taking Calc III now, there may be no issue with moving right into Differential Equations (or whatever the next math is); however, without AP or DE, s/he may not be credited with the Calc I and Calc II hours.

 

Best,

~Brigid

 

Brigid it's hard to tell from my original post, but dd won't be taking Calc III until 11th or 12th grade. I hear what you're saying about the possibility that she may not get credit for Calc I and II if they're done on her own without outside verification. And I know you're right that I should check with colleges she may be interested in. That's great that the APs and DE really paid off for your son!

[Musicmom]

Thank you for sharing your experience. May I ask if' date=' in hindsight, your son is glad that he placed into a higher class? Did it help to make his college schedule easier to have fewer required classes to take, or was it more challenging to start out at the higher level?[/quote']

I'll try to remember to ask him. I'm pretty sure he'd say it has made things easier.

 

He was nervous at first having placed so high (and so were we), but once he started the class, he did just fine and actually found it very manageable. The college was pretty strict about students starting with the class that the placement test put them into (I suspect for the opposite scenario, where a student is overconfident about their ability :D) but since ds placed where he did according to their standards, that was comforting--and it really was the right course for him to start with.

 

He's now, as a sophomore, taking his very last required math course (there were only 3 left--he did one each semester last year, none this past fall, and now the last course this spring), so having those math requirements done definitely has and will free up time in his schedule to pursue other courses he'd like to take.

 

YMMV, of course. Other colleges may or may not be as careful with placement, so a higher level course could prove challenging. Not having as many requirements I think will definitely free up time--the only downside might be in a program where most of the students start in the lower levels and proceed lock-step through... there could be some loss of camaraderie. That was never the case for ds, because the students coming into his college were at widely varying levels in calculus--he definitely wasn't the only one who placed high.

[Teachin'Mine]

Thank you Musicmom!

 

It's amazing how differently each college treats the students who come to them with higher math. Your son was fortunate to have to take so few math courses to complete the requirements. Creekland has posted that at the U of Chicago, students can place higher, but they still need to complete the required number of credits needed for a math major. IMO that might put these students at a bit of a disadvantage, unless those upper level courses could count towards graduate degrees.

 

Thank you for sharing your son's experience.

[flyingiguana]

Right now she's doing Saxon Calculus on her own and doing well. Her cc will give her a calculus placement test - I guess we'll request it at the end of this semester so we know what she should register for next semester. I'm guessing that she'll go into Calculus II as the starting class' date=' but the results of the test and the department chair's recommendation will be what we'll go with. So, ideally the Calc III will be taken at the cc, but it will be as de and many of the more selective schools won't give credit for de classes - some will give credit for AP with a 4 or 5, some won't.

 

[/quote']

 

This sounds like a fine plan.

 

My feeling is that most colleges will take the cc credit. If not, they likely wouldn't have taken the AP credit anyway.