AP vs Honors as per college admin rep

[creekland]

While we were at the University of Rochester doing a visit yesterday the admissions representative gave this response to the commonly asked question:

 

"Is it better to take an Honors Class and get an A or an AP class and get a B?"

 

"The answer is simple. Take the AP class and get an A. For top tier colleges we want to see that you take on the challenge and can meet it."

 

This is not the same as saying they won't accept anyone with a B, of course, but it was the first time we'd heard anyone be rather blunt with the truth about what they want to see. This guy was saying that course rigor was extremely important to him when he reviews applications.

 

I'll admit to being honored that my guy got in. Their typical accepted applicant has between 2 - 7 AP or IB courses. My guy only had one (it was a 5 and self studied, but nonetheless, just one). In hindsight, I'd have added quite a few more AP tests to his high school plan. We had him do two college level cc classes last year. Perhaps they helped, but having cc college credits was nowhere on their list of what they want to see. If I recall correctly, UR doesn't give credit for DE either. I suspect it definitely helped that my guy had a nice ACT score, but the admin rep said that score is the last thing he looks at (but he does look). As per the college confidential acceptance page for UR, those who got waitlisted tended to have lower scores.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd put in on here in case anyone else was wondering and wanted to consider top tier colleges for their students.

[memphispeg]

Being a homeschooler, you could justify a non-AP class as high level with a complete course description. You could generate an interesting project/writing- generating science course and skip the AP-test-mill altogether. APs make it easier for the admissions people to evaluate the students. A well-written transcript and essays on the application take a long time to get through but, may ultimately be better in revealing your student as a thoughtful and creative person (especially in the sciences).

[gardenmom5]

an interesting chat I had with the recruiter for my girls uni (top tier) was they want to see the student taking the most rigorous academic path available to *them*. Even if there may be other more academicaly rigorous paths elsewhere.

 

He shared they had admitted a student who for some reason, had been excluded from the top academic path by his school years previously but was still admitted to the univeristy because he had excelled in the path he was on. (once on a 'path' they were in that 'path')

[Brenda in MA]

Being a homeschooler, you could justify a non-AP class as high level with a complete course description. You could generate an interesting project/writing- generating science course and skip the AP-test-mill altogether. APs make it easier for the admissions people to evaluate the students. A well-written transcript and essays on the application take a long time to get through but, may ultimately be better in revealing your student as a thoughtful and creative person (especially in the sciences).

 

:iagree: My son applied to UR 3 years ago with no AP courses, a couple of on-line courses, and two CC courses. He was accepted and received a merit scholarship offer, which they only give to the top 25%. His ACT scores were high, and I think that helped. He also had a fantastic on-campus interview with an admissions person before he applied.

 

He didn't end up going there, but I tell this story to dispel the myth that hsers must have AP courses to be accepted at a place like UR. I would think that if your student goes to a ps or private that offers AP, they really do need to take them and do well. For a homeschooler, the "playing field" is a little different because we don't always have as easy access to AP courses, and we have other opportunities available where a student can distinguish himself from this peers.

 

Brenda

[creekland]

I agree that I think homeschooling brings in a nice diversity and a chance to do things "differently" and be ok as long as one can substantiate their learning. I've been told that top schools count our ACT and SAT scores more for this reason. It's probably true.

 

But I don't know that I agree overall that top schools only want to see rigor. Our local public high school does not offer AP nor IB - just a handful of "college in the high school" classes that are getting less respected each year by top colleges (still ok for state schools and lower level privates). We rarely get even our top students into top schools. It does happen once in a while, but not nearly as often as it would if they only counted "rigor."

 

One mom at the information session was asking what was going to be happening to schools like hers where budget decisions were axing IB and varsity sports (extra curriculars). The admin rep didn't really have an answer for her - other than to say if it was just for her daughter (a junior - only being affected senior year) to add a note to the common app and to have the guidance counselor do the same so they'd be aware of it.

 

When admissions get competitive, nicks aren't necessarily fatal, but they sure don't help. Looking across the college confidential acceptance, waitlist, and denied lists for top schools shows me a ton of "competitors" out there with impressive credentials. I do think homeschooling helps rather than hurts, but there's still competition.

 

I should also note, we didn't do any AP courses - I just had my guy take the AP Stats test after preparing on his own throughout the year. This year he will be taking the AP Psych test to place out of freshman Psych, but it won't count for admissions, of course.

[Jane in NC]

an interesting chat I had with the recruiter for my girls uni (top tier) was they want to see the student taking the most rigorous academic path available to *them*. Even if there may be other more academicaly rigorous paths elsewhere.

 

He shared they had admitted a student who for some reason, had been excluded from the top academic path by his school years previously but was still admitted to the univeristy because he had excelled in the path he was on. (once on a 'path' they were in that 'path')

 

I want to agree with gardenmom5 and Brenda on this.

 

One problem that I faced was a less than helpful public school that clearly did not want homeschoolers taking AP exams on the premises. It took many phone calls before I found a receptive administrator who hooked me up with a receptive counselor.

 

School systems like mine offer few APs and will not allow students to take APs outside of the ones given. But at least my son had some options. Some students appear to have even fewer.

 

One thing that my son did though was take advantage of the opportunities that were available here. His volunteer work was specific to our unique area. I suspect that stood out. But he did have 3 APs. As I commented in another recent thread, he was hedging his bet.

[Nscribe]

A while back I had the opportunity to casually chat with an admissions counselor about AP and Honors.

 

Several of the points made in responses already were mentioned.

 

However, one additional point she made was the difficulty in stating any hard and fast guidelines stems from the goal of many schools to mold a diverse entering freshman class. Thus one student may well be accepted over another despite weighted GPA's or Honors versus AP...

[nynyny]

While we were at the University of Rochester doing a visit yesterday the admissions representative gave this response to the commonly asked question:

 

"Is it better to take an Honors Class and get an A or an AP class and get a B?"

 

"The answer is simple. Take the AP class and get an A. For top tier colleges we want to see that you take on the challenge and can meet it."

 

This is not the same as saying they won't accept anyone with a B, of course, but it was the first time we'd heard anyone be rather blunt with the truth about what they want to see. This guy was saying that course rigor was extremely important to him when he reviews applications.

 

I'll admit to being honored that my guy got in. Their typical accepted applicant has between 2 - 7 AP or IB courses. My guy only had one (it was a 5 and self studied, but nonetheless, just one). In hindsight, I'd have added quite a few more AP tests to his high school plan. We had him do two college level cc classes last year. Perhaps they helped, but having cc college credits was nowhere on their list of what they want to see. If I recall correctly, UR doesn't give credit for DE either. I suspect it definitely helped that my guy had a nice ACT score, but the admin rep said that score is the last thing he looks at (but he does look). As per the college confidential acceptance page for UR, those who got waitlisted tended to have lower scores.

 

Anyway, just thought I'd put in on here in case anyone else was wondering and wanted to consider top tier colleges for their students.

 

If the ACT score is the last thing he looks at, what comes before those scores?

The U of R counselors my ds has spoken to always appear most interested in my ds' SAT and SAT II scores.

Thanks.

Edited February 18, 2012 by nynyny
added "U of R"

[creekland]

If the ACT score is the last thing he looks at, what comes before those scores?

The U of R counselors my ds has spoken to always appear most interested in my ds' SAT and SAT II scores.

Thanks.

 

This particular adcom said he looks at class rigor and GPA first, essays second, extra curriculars third, ACT/SAT last. SAT II scores he didn't care at all about (his words).

 

He also said each adcom has their own specialty of what they like to look at (order) and that each application (some 12,000) is looked at by 3 people.

 

My suspicion based upon the college confidential accepted thread (UR's) is that SAT/ACT does matter. For homeschoolers I would think it'd matter a bit.

[creekland]

But he did have 3 APs.

 

I've had an adcom from another top U tell me they didn't need to see many APs (test scores), but wanted to see some as they correlate better with success than GPA or SAT/ACT. He also said if a student showed success with a couple (not counting the "easy" ones - Human Geography would be one this school doesn't give credit for) they were likely to be successful with pretty much any of them. His answer was in response to my asking if my guy would be at a disadvantage with just one.

[nynyny]

This particular adcom said he looks at class rigor and GPA first, essays second, extra curriculars third, ACT/SAT last. SAT II scores he didn't care at all about (his words).

 

He also said each adcom has their own specialty of what they like to look at (order) and that each application (some 12,000) is looked at by 3 people.

 

My suspicion based upon the college confidential accepted thread (UR's) is that SAT/ACT does matter. For homeschoolers I would think it'd matter a bit.

 

ECs before SATs--that's very interesting.

 

Thanks for answering!!

[wapiti]

This won't mean much, but FWIW, I was accepted at U of R (decades ago:tongue_smilie:) with two APs that I was in the middle of, for which I did not take exams until after admission senior year, though back in those days that was not unusual. I wonder how much more competitive things are now.

 

Creekland, many congrats to your son. Two of my brothers went there (who are successful, one wildly so) and in retrospect I wish I had taken them up on their offer.

[creekland]

This won't mean much, but FWIW, I was accepted at U of R (decades ago:tongue_smilie:) with two APs that I was in the middle of, for which I did not take exams until after admission senior year, though back in those days that was not unusual. I wonder how much more competitive things are now.

 

Creekland, many congrats to your son. Two of my brothers went there (who are successful, one wildly so) and in retrospect I wish I had taken them up on their offer.

 

When I was in high school (2nd best public in NY at the time they told us) we could only take AP senior year and then were limited to a max of 3. We regularly sent students to Ivies and the like. This is partially why they weren't really on my radar with homeschooling (that and our school dropping them in favor of cc classes).

 

Things have become far more competitive now (at the top anyway). State schools and lower level privates don't tend to require nearly as much in our experience. But then again, what's available at some places is incredible too - a huge variance between schools and each place right for the right student. I've no idea at this point if my guy is going for research or his LAC option. They both have pros and cons.

 

Short of finances being the issue, large state colleges are out.

[Candid]

I think anytime you hear a college admin give some point like that you always need to take it with some salt and look for the unsaid information.

 

In the books I've read that follow officers during a year of admissions it is clear that some statements on tours and the like are less than meaningful. Rachel Toors is the most up front about this, but even in The Gatekeepers you get hints of this underlying duality of marketing and helpfulness. And other books make it clear that boosting the number of overall applications is a goal for college admissions officers, college bond rating are based in part on the number admissions vs. number of applications the lower the percentage the better the bond rating.

 

Toors gives an example parents who ask if a students with a certain SAT get into Duke. She says the admin will say yes, what they won't say is that everybody at that level was a development, athletic, or other special admin situation not students who aren't in those categories.

 

Does that mean this guy was doing this? Hard to say. Just don't base a whole strategy on this one answer.

 

However, I will say I think home school students should have a solid record of test scores that back up their studies. In the books the schools that are the most open are shown giving students two ratings based on their academic studies (not test scores). One is a rating of whether they had taken a course load that was at the highest level at their school. Students at schools without a challenging course load because their school doesn't offer one will get the next level down with an asterisk. The other thing they look at is class rank not GPA. Because both these things are going to be dicey for a home school student, test scores will serve to confirm the courses they took and their performance.