Popular Post lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) It has been summer holidays here, so I have been reading, reading, reading about writing. I have read 3 of the 4 recommendations from SWB for rhetoric: Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (re-read this one, and really studied it) DeAngelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition (yes, the examples are as bad as she says) They Say, I Say: Moves that Matter in Academic Writing I have also read Webster's Student Writing Handbook Lively Art of Writing And I have read the following curriculum (some I actually read like LtoW, CW and WWS; others I really just skimmed to understand what they were doing like Killgallon and WWE): Killgallon Sentence Composing (middle and high school levels) Lost Tools of Writing (LtoW, levels 1 and 2) Classical Composition's Fable Classical Writing's (CW) Homer, Maxim, and Chreia, (and soon Herodotus as it just arrived today) MCT's Island, Town and Voyage levels Writing with Skill (WWS) Writing with Ease (WWE levels 1,2,3) IEW's Structure and Style (luckily got these DVDs from the Homeschool library). Yes, as you can see, I have also spent a lot of money. But I see things so clearly now and I wanted to share my understanding. I hope this helps someone..... I also don't mind answering questions. I have found that Corbett is the best overview of the scope of writing, and would recommend it as a must read for anyone interested in teaching writing to her children up through high school. Corbett sorts classical writing into the 3 canons: Invention, Arrangement, and Elocution, and I have found that organization perfect to sort the different curriculum into. Invention: by far the best curriculum I have read to improve a student's invention is Lost Tools of Writing. It uses the exact same list of Common Topics found in Corbett. However, when I read Corbett, I just could not understand how to get from the list of topics to putting them into an essay. And in WWS and CW I was spoon fed too much, so I could not really see the forest through the trees and implement it on my own. LtoW teaches the student how to ask questions based on the Common Topics and then how to arrange them into an argument. Also, LtoW and CW are the only curriculum that give any attention to the Special Topics associated with judicial, deliberative, and ceremonial discourse. The Lively Art of Writing has 2 excellent chapters on how to create a thesis statement. WWS (as planned for grades 5-8) studies half of the Common Topics listed in Corbett, I assume she will cover the rest in her high school curriculum WWStyle. Arrangement: Different curriculum attacked this in different ways. IEW does the best job in teaching kids the traditional paragraph structure, story structure, 5 paragraph essay. But also does this is a very formulaic manner. I have not seen IEW's more advanced materials. LtoW is also formulaic, but at the essay level. They Say/ I Say is unique in its discussion of arrangement. It focuses on the persuasive essay at the highest level and how to incorporate your ideas into the ongoing Great Discussion of books, essays, and ideas. This is the kind of arrangement I needed to write my dissertation. WWS's discussion of arrangement is not based on an standard outline, but rather on imitation of great writers – imitating how they describe and narrate historical and scientific topics (for level 1, haven't obviously seen the other levels) Elocution: Killgallon and Classical Writing tie IMHO for the best instruction on style of the sentences. They both have you play with sentences, change them around, evaluate how the new sentence augments certain aspects of an idea. LtoW teaches some extremely advanced stylistic features that are covered in Corbett. However, it does not spend enough time on each of these features for the student to actually be able to use them effectively. IEW teaches more formulaic style including a certain number of features for each paragraph, but it does not actually teach you HOW to change a sentence around. WWS so far has a fairly limited approach to style. Critical Reading: Both WWS and CW require students to analyze classic writers to help them understand what makes writing effective. CW does this somewhat better than WWS. MCT has you read classic essays but does not spend much time guiding the student through them. Classical Curriculum using the Progymnasmata. Corbett does not discuss this at all and has a somewhat condescending attitude towards it. The progym is a series of exercises that teaches you how to create different paragraphs and discuss different set topics, It uses Corbett's rhetorical ideas in a restricted and controlled manner. DeAngelo explains the purpose of all of the exercises very well, but his writing examples are as bad as SWB said. I actually could not finish the book, and the examples tarnished my feeling towards the progym. Classical Composition is a progym course which you would finish by 8th grade and then move to rhetorical writing. CW is more than just progym. It stretches the progym out to cover up to 12th grade (although the additional books are not out yet). By stretching out the progym exercies, it mutates some of them to make them truly rhetoric, meaning persuasive essays. The initial idea of the progym is that it happened before rhetoric – a student learned how to write and think using the exercises and then used this understanding to construct persuasive arguments. CW merges the two at the higher levels. Classical Curriculum not using the progym: LtoW follows Corbett's text but does not use the progym exercises. It is an early Rhetoric curriculum that teaches persuasive writing. WWS also follows Corbett's text but does not use the progym exercises. However, in contrast to LtoW, WWS does not teach students about persuasive writing. Instead, it teaches each of the Common Topics (well, half of the Topics) that will be used later to construct a complete argument in a rhetorical composition. Classical vs Modern writing: I have seen some discussion of this, and was confused for a while. But all this reading has cleared it up. In Ancient times there was a lot of time spent on ceremonial and judicial speech, to praise the fallen and to defend oneself (you acted as your own lawyer). These types of writing are not really done now, more of an ancient style. Also, many of the progym exercises use essay starters (like maxims etc) that are not commonly found today. WWS definitely uses more modern styles of writing than CW for example. What I will be using: For 5th through 8th, we will use WWS with Killgallon to shore up the lack of style in WWS. I like the modern writing style in WWS. 9th and 10th LtoW, I may even compact levels 1 and 2 into 1 year. This is early rhetoric. 11th -12th : Rhetoric. We will be writing across the curriculum without a curriculum. For an overview of rhetoric, Ds will read Corbett both years; for critical reading, we will apply Corbett to essays; for arrangement, we will use They Say/ I Say; and for style we will continue with Killgallon. I like CW, I really do, but I am concerned about the focus on non-modern writing styles. I think I will be creating my own CW by using the above books. I disagree with SWB about how difficult Corbett was to read. If you skip the part on logic, the rest of the text is straight forward and relatively easy to read. I found his examples and very lengthy discussion of them to be excellent, just excellent. And after studying all the topics, I think that I could now guide my son to analyze other's essay writing (like MLK or Rachel Carson) using my knowledge of the topics. Very very useful text, and I will definitely have my son read it twice in both 11th and 12th grades. Well, that is about it!! Hope you enjoyed it!:001_smile: Ruth in NZ Edited February 17, 2012 by lewelma 49 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Most informative! Thank you so much for taking the time to write this all out!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matilda Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 That is a lot of great information Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QumaCote Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Wow!! Thank you!! You obviously spent a great deal of time and money researching this topic, and I appreciate your willingness to share with the rest of us!! Warmest regards, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danybug Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Wow, thanks for the wealth of info! It is always great to see curriculum compared by someone who has read and "applied" them. My question: why specifically do you think WWS needs to be supplemented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) You obviously spent a great deal of time and money researching this topic Yes, about $350! :001_huh: (I filled a suitcase for my parents to bring at Christmas!) This does not include IEW (free), LToW (have read his very comprehensive website and some documents Andrew Kern e-mailed me); or WWE and MCT which I bought 2 years ago. Also, this reading project was less about research and more about the self-learning I needed to do to be able to effectively teach my ds as he moves into high-school level writing. Ruth in NZ Edited February 17, 2012 by lewelma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 My question: why specifically do you think WWS needs to be supplemented? It is hard to tell what will be in the next 3 books of WWS, but in the first book, she just does not teach students how to manipulate sentences, how to increase their complexities, or how different grammatical changes change the meaning of a sentence. She always wants the student to logically connect sentences, but does not teach them how to do this. She also spends time with the thesaurus, but does not spend time on using verbals or subordinate clauses, etc. Killgallon does these things in a straight-forward, easy-to-implement manner. Ruth in NZ 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Awesome! Congratulations on getting through all of those materials. :party: I found Corbett's book at a thrift store. It was a first edition. I commented on it last year. I think, as the teacher, I see it as the pinnacle. It truly helped me see how many of the writing programs fit into the writing puzzle. It helped me understand CW in a way I had not. It helped me understand how to work with a delayed writer and keep us headed in the right direction. I guess I see it as a our map. Thanks for the reminder to dig it out and read through the highlights again. We are currently using WWS and it is perfect for where he is at. We work on sentence style in some of his across the curriculum writing, but thanks for the reminder on keeping up that style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Congratulations on getting through all of those materials. :party: Yes, this is exactly the way I feel. I also got an older edition of Corbett. Mine was published in 1990. But now that I have written all over it, I might need to get another for my son. :glare: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnTeaching Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you so much for this review! Extremely informative! I am now very intrigued with several of these and will be looking for them myself. This forum is such an incredible resource because of people like you. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in AUS Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you so much for taking the time to pass on all this valuable information. You are such a star! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I do want to say that the only complete curriculum IMHO is Classical Writing. It contains invention, arrangement, elocution, and critical reading as a way to inform writing. It is strong in all of these things. LToW is stronger in invention, but in every other class CW ties for first IMHO. I am looking forward to reading Herodotus this weekend. It will be interesting to see if CW teaches more modern writing as it heads into persuasive writing in Herodotus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybee Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you for this. Very helpful and timely for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I have read 3 of the 4 recommendations from SWB for rhetoric: Corbett's Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student (re-read this one, and really studied it) DeAngelo's Composition in the Classical Tradition (yes, the examples are as bad as she says) I Say, You Say: Moves that Matter in Classical Writing I have also read Webster's Student Writing Handbook Lively Art of Writing And I have read the following curriculum (some I actually read like LtoW, CW and WWS; others I really just skimmed to understand what they were doing like Killgallon and WWE): Killgallon Sentence Composing (middle and high school levels) Lost Tools of Writing (LtoW, levels 1 and 2) Classical Composition's Fable Classical Writing's (CW) Homer, Maxim, and Chreia, (and soon Herodotus as it just arrived today) MCT's Island, Town and Voyage levels Writing with Skill (WWS) Writing with Ease (WWE levels 1,2,3) IEW's Structure and Style (luckily got these DVDs from the Homeschool library). w/ SWI levels A and C (added by me) Ruth in NZ Hi Ruth, I enjoyed reading your review. I bolded all the ones I own. I couldn't make it through De'Angelo, though. :tongue_smilie: I'll add Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition to the list, and it is actually my favorite. Her writing it engaging. Her example essays are some of the finest and students can actually relate to them. I have never seen LToW or WWS/WWE. I also own several MLA handbook guides, as well Windows to the World. My most recent purchase and the one I am currently reading is The Norton Field Guide to Writing, With Readings. I have mixed thoughts about all the different books. Some I outright dislike. Some are ok. Some I really like but find it impossible to incorporate solely b/c I want my high schoolers to have mastered what they will be required to do at the college level. Honestly, I have found knowing what is in those books, simply applying it to their writing, and just teaching them directly as far more effective (and simpler) than attempting to have them work through any single book. Congrats on making it through all of them in such a short span of time. It took me yrs to get through that many. :lol: FWIW, I don't know what I am actually hoping to find in Norton. Maybe a book that actually does the teaching??? Next week is our vacation week and I am hoping to get much further into it than I have made it. Edited February 17, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you! Your reviews made me confident that I have made the right choice for my son: wrapping up 2.5 years of IEW for style and sentence structure, following by WWS in early middle school. Brownie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibaker103 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I do want to say that the only complete curriculum IMHO is Classical Writing. It contains invention, arrangement, elocution, and critical reading as a way to inform writing. It is strong in all of these things. LToW is stronger in invention, but in every other class CW ties for first IMHO. I am looking forward to reading Herodotus this weekend. It will be interesting to see if CW teaches more modern writing as it heads into persuasive writing in Herodotus. Please give an update with your review of CW Herodotus when you can. I have chosen to use CW for my 10th grader but still on the fence regarding my 7th grader. He seems to do better focusing on one or two things at a time so that he doesn't become overwhelmed. WWS focusing on outlining and narration is great and providing him with a challenge right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostinabook Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you very much for taking the time to post such detailed reviews! They are very helpful. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) NA Edited February 19, 2012 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmos Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 What I will be using: For 5th through 8th, we will use WWS with Killgallon to shore up the lack of style in WWS. I like the modern writing style in WWS. 9th and 10th LtoW, I may even compact levels 1 and 2 into 1 year. This is early rhetoric. This is very similar to what I'm tentatively planning right now for my ds, though based on much less research. (I'm hoping to undertake a similar project this summer. LTOW is taunting me from my desk.) I feel so validated in my choices! We're using Image Grammar, not Killgallon, but I understand they have a lot of overlap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Thank you so much for posting this. Very, very helpful, and I will be exploring LToW as a followup to WWS, which we are using now. We also incorporate some Kilgallon and Julie Bogart (Bravewriter) ideas. I feel that it's working very well. The incremental approach of WWS works well for my son, as he is on the younger side for logic stage work. I often find he's skipped certain steps, but successfully, meaning he hasn't always needed to incremental approach; it's nice to know it's there, however. I also find that doing a rewrite of WWS work, perhaps once a week, working on not only the grammar and content but also on the style of the writing, helps greatly. For this, we don't use any particular curriculum, but it will absolutely benefit me to read some of the books you recommended. Very much appreciated! Off to find Corbett's book. ETA: Has anyone read this book by Farnsworth? And is this the book you are referring to? They Say/I Say Moves that Matter in Academic Writing. Edited February 17, 2012 by Halcyon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheApprentice Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks for this very informative post. WWS was on my list for next year, but now I'll look into Killgallon as a supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam L in Mid Tenn Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks a ton!:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 ETA: Has anyone read this book by Farnsworth? And is this the book you are referring to? They Say/I Say Moves that Matter in Academic Writing. I have the Farnsworth book. It's does not teach writing, it's more figures of speech. I do plan on ds going through it, but only once his writing is solidified. I see this book, Figures of Speech, recommended every once in a while. Farnsworth's book would be an appropriate replacement for that, but not as a teaching tool for writing. I would suggest the Farnsworth over the Figures of Speech book; I like the format and the examples better. Plus at 26.00, the Figure of Speech book is overpriced. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi Ruth, I enjoyed reading your review. I bolded all the ones I own. I couldn't make it through De'Angelo, though. :tongue_smilie: I'll add Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition to the list, and it is actually my favorite. Her writing it engaging. Her example essays are some of the finest and students can actually relate to them. I have never seen LToW or WWS/WWE. I also own several MLA handbook guides, as well Windows to the World. My most recent purchase and the one I am currently reading is The Norton Field Guide to Writing, With Readings. I have mixed thoughts about all the different books. Some I outright dislike. Some are ok. Some I really like but find it impossible to incorporate solely b/c I want my high schoolers to have mastered what they will be required to do at the college level. Honestly, I have found knowing what is in those books, simply applying it to their writing, and just teaching them directly as far more effective (and simpler) than attempting to have them work through any single book. FWIW, I don't know what I am actually hoping to find in Norton. Maybe a book that actually does the teaching??? Next week is our vacation week and I am hoping to get much further into it than I have made it. I'll be interested to hear how you like the Norton book. Also is there a better place to buy the Horner book? It's a little pricey at Amazon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Great post. Thanks for sharing...I am subbing....:bigear: Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you for sharing so much of your hard work here! This is awesome! I think I'll print this one out for further consideration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thank you for sharing so much of your hard work here! This is awesome! I think I'll print this one out for further consideration. :iagree::iagree::iagree: Thanks, Ruth!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 PlumCrazy, I would use Homer for Older Beginners with workbooks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flaura Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks for this review! I will have to look into Killgallon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KellieMI Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Another "Thank you!" for sharing. I will also be printing this off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 awesome write up, too bad you hadn't gone through meaningful composition to compare it to the rest so I could see how that one lines up (it is the one we have decided to go with) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloggermom Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 We are also using Killgallon with Writing With Skill for 5th/6th grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 They Say/I Say Moves that Matter in Academic Writing. Oh dear, yes that is the book. I'll go change the other post. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I couldn't make it through De'Angelo, though. :tongue_smilie: Yes, I agree. The examples are written by students rather than classical writers or expert writers. And they make the progym exercises seem so silly, when I know they are not. I can see why SWB did not want to add it in print to the WTM. I'll add Horner's Rhetoric in the Classical Tradition to the list, and it is actually my favorite. Her writing it engaging. Her example essays are some of the finest and students can actually relate to them.I am so glad you added this one. I am looking for essays for my kids to read and study in terms of their writing style. Some I really like but find it impossible to incorporate solely b/c I want my high schoolers to have mastered what they will be required to do at the college level. Would you mind expanding on this. I am very interested.:bigear: Honestly, I have found knowing what is in those books, simply applying it to their writing, and just teaching them directly as far more effective (and simpler) than attempting to have them work through any single book. Yes, I agree. I like to know the material and then teach what they need when they need it. This is why I have spent so much time reading about writing! I would really like to have writing during the high school years laid out like you do it - 1 paper per week, feedback on Thursday, final draft on Friday. I think that now that I have read so much, I could easily do it. However, my son right now works harder in writing when keeping to an external schedule, so WWS is filling that need. We may only use it for 2 or 3 years. Now that I understand how to teach invention thanks to Corbett and LToW, I plan to use these techniques and teach them directly. I don't follow directions very well and mutate all curriculum beyond recognition. :D Congrats on making it through all of them in such a short span of time. It took me yrs to get through that many. :lol: My husband took the kids on two 3-day camping trips, and I promised myself not to fritter away my time! Those days plus 5 hours/day for 6 weeks got me through a LOT of material. (I had already read and/or used IEW, MCT, and WWE/WWS in previous years; plus I am still working on CW - those books are looooong.) FWIW, I don't know what I am actually hoping to find in Norton. Maybe a book that actually does the teaching??? Next week is our vacation week and I am hoping to get much further into it than I have made it.Please post your evaluation when you are done. I would love to hear about it. Edited February 17, 2012 by lewelma 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Create Your Ritual Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Lewelma .. awesome job with all the research over your summer break! You had me at 'My evaluation of NUMEROUS writing curricula'.. LOL! I loved your thoughts! I have also been having a bit of an issue trying to incorporate CW Homer style (CC Narrative) into our WWS work. They feel like two distinct things right now. But.. we like them both for different reasons! I haven't looked far enough ahead to really know what I am talking about, but I often wonder are my dc going to get confused by the different variations of writing certain papers. Will it all eventually lead to the same place? For instance, this week they completed WWS Week 23 Topoi and had loads of separate components to fit together to form a complete composition about Octopi or Octopuses or The Life Cycle of an Octopus.. lol. There is a formula to the writing style that SWB teaches in WWS, but as I see it over and over in articles from sources like The Smithsonian or other magazines, I know that it is a formula that works. Where will CW take us though and how does it compare to WWS? I honestly have no issue continuing them both to some degree, unless they are two distinctly different paths and it's going to confuse my them. I guess I need my own big picture and need to get hopping on reading these books! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 PlumCrazy, I would use Homer for Older Beginners with workbooks. :iagree: for 6th grade student with experience in IEW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Ok, I just reread this and I think it is a jumble of ideas. Hope it makes sense.... I have also been having a bit of an issue trying to incorporate CW Homer style (CC Narrative) into our WWS work. They feel like two distinct things right now. But.. we like them both for different reasons! I think they are. CW is rewriting fiction and WWS is writing nonfiction narratives from an outline. My kids will never be creative writers so WWS is more appropriate for them. I haven't looked far enough ahead to really know what I am talking about, but I often wonder are my dc going to get confused by the different variations of writing certain papers. Will it all eventually lead to the same place? I think you need to ask yourself where you want to go. I don't think the kids will be confused if you are clear about the differences yourself (and that is the hard part). I like to think of it as bricks building a house. Each brick is a type of paragraph (descriptive, comparative, etc) and you decide which bricks you want to use to build up your argument. I think the confusion is that elementary and middle school curriculum are teaching students how to write each type of paragraph in isolation without the need to use it in a persuasive piece of writing. Where will CW take us though and how does it compare to WWS?I really like using Corbett as an organizing principle, but he does not discuss the progym. The progym is set exercises that cover the Common Topics, like supporting or refuting a maxim. In modern writing you would support of refute a question from history, science, or literature. In the end CW is aiming for students to be able to write Deliberative, Cerimonial, and Judicial writing at a 12th grade level. WWS is more limited in scope because it ends in 8th grade. WWS is building up a repertoire of paragraph types that eventually the students will use in persuasive writing. LToW is only about persuasive writing. From the point of view of Corbett's Common Topics: WWS 5th through 8th grade is supposed to cover: Definition: Genus and division Comparison: Similarity, difference, and degree Relationship: Cause and Effect She is doing them in the exact order they are found in Corbett. Corbett's list continues with: Relationship continued: Antecedent/ consequence; contraries, contraditions Circumstance: possible/impossible, past/future fact testimony: authority, testimonial, statistics, maxims, law, precedents And these are not included in WWS, but I am guessing that they will be in WWStyle. In contrast to WWS, the progym teaches students to play with each of these Common Topics, but more as the thesis of the paper, rather than the arguments you use to build support for your thesis. I tried to map CW to Corbett's list and CW does cover them all, but in random order and with bits of each put into each level. For example, CW takes a year to study maxims, but not really to **study** maxim but rather to use maxims as a thesis to write about using cause, analogy, and testimony. So CW is using the Common Topics listed above to write a support for a maxim. Corbett and WWS and LToW do not use the progym so they used the Common Topics to support a thesis of the student's or teacher's making. Does that make sense? WWS, CW, CC all start with telling a narrative and describing things rather than any persuasive writing. WWS starts with description and chronological narratives of historical and scientific topics. Where as CW and CC start with retelling fables and myths (and a few nonfiction topics) using figures of description. The main difference is the subject matter (nonfiction vs fiction). But they are both teaching the student how to order her thoughts and write a narrative. My kids HATE creative writing, so CW Homer would never work for us. However, Homer has a very interesting methodology for understanding how stories are put together (Togo wrote about it above), and I will use this for critical reading for my kids, even if they never try to imitate it in their writing. It is difficult to compare CW's Maxim and Chreia to later levels of WWS because (obviously) I have not seen them, only the outline of what SWB wants to write. I do not think that WWS will include persuasive writing, and Maxim/Chreia begin this process. Hummm, that was not very clear, was it? Edited February 17, 2012 by lewelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Create Your Ritual Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Yes, I think it was clear to the extent that I have not read all that you have yet. ;-) So far, with my limited experience of WWS I have been happy with the direction that it is moving. It lays out specific instructions for how to write certain types of papers (I don't know all the language .. persuasive, etc. quite yet). However, if today someone were to ask my dc to write a historical narrative about a topic, a scientific description about a topic, a biographical sketch of a certain person, or a composition explaining the natural sequence of events that unfolds in nature with certain animals (salmon spawning, life cycle of an octopus).. then they currently have the tools to do that. They have an extensive reference section to pull from to get them started. I think they are going to need A LOT more practice to get them to be able to do it without the reference sections in front of them, but they have done each of these styles several times now with success. I remember a while back when we completed a Topoi exercise on writing a biographical sketch of a person they knew. Typical writing at this age would have watered it down to 2 or 3 things... She is nice, she is fun to play with, etc. But because we had the Aspects List for writing a biographical sketch and I had them choose 4 or 5 of them, they had a plan of attack so to speak to write it and it came out really well. I have personally learned a lot working through WWS, as I would have never known to formulate papers in this way .. or how to include a Scientific Description of an object with a Chronological Narrative about a Scientific Discovery .. etc. etc. All that said, I agree that WWS does not bring in loads of creative writing skills. They are learning more each day with the new Copia section that we are doing, but I have also found value in having them incorporate phrases into their sentence structures. We have been working our way through Killgallon and while it doesn't come automatically to them in WWS, I can assign it and they know what I am talking about. The place that I now need to go is where you are. Where you can talk with your dc about invention, Arrangement, etc. and know what 'I' am talking about . lol. I am grateful for where WWS has taken us this year, and I have used CC Fable (first 10 lessons) and CC Narrative (mixing in 6 sentence shuffle work from CW Homer and Theon's) to build their confidence in writing more descriptively and creatively. That has been my entire focus this year. Having WWS in the mix initially made this more difficult because they were so caught up in the 'organization factor' of what needed to go into the paper that they couldn't get a handle on also being creative. I love how you are able to bring what you have learned from your readings into the discussion with your kids before they have done each of the WWS assignments.. it really shows in the outcome. By you understanding it, they understand it. I need to find that clarity I think, and then I will also be more confident. ;-) You appear very happy with WWS and Killgallon, but also say that you are bringing in key things that you have learned through reviewing the other curricula. I would love to have you give me a road map of exactly what to bring in where, but I feel that it would likely be best for me to do my own darn reading now and just be grateful to be pointed in the right direction. ;-) The thing I don't want to do is to be switching to this and that each year. I have to have consistency. Like you said .. be able to give them a set essay for the week and know what we are going for as an end product. I would like to trust that SWB knows what she is doing and be good with it .. lol .. and I do trust that. But.. I can't yet see the big picture and perhaps that is where the confusion lies. Do 'I' need to find clarity myself .. from the sounds of it, if I want to effectively teach them then the answer is YES. Edited February 17, 2012 by SaDonna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 However, if today someone were to ask my dc to write a historical narrative about a topic, a scientific description about a topic, a biographical sketch of a certain person, or a composition explaining the natural sequence of events that unfolds in nature with certain animals (salmon spawning, life cycle of an octopus).. then they currently have the tools to do that. They have an extensive reference section to pull from to get them started. I think they are going to need A LOT more practice to get them to be able to do it without the reference sections in front of them, but they have done each of these styles several times now with success. Well, you are ahead of me in WWS by 7 weeks, so I don't fully understand where we are going. But up to chapter 15, WWS is working on 2 things -- descriptive and narrative paragraphs using both science and history as topics. The rest is just detail.;) I have personally learned a lot working through WWS, as I would have never known to formulate papers in this way .. or how to include a Scientific Description of an object with a Chronological Narrative about a Scientific Discovery .. etc. etc. :iagree:I feel like we are teaching them to write for National Geographic! I love how you are able to bring what you have learned from your readings into the discussion with your kids before they have done each of the WWS assignments.. it really shows in the outcome. By you understanding it, they understand it. I need to find that clarity I think, and then I will also be more confident. ;-) I'm guessing you saw week 14 and 15 that I posted on the k-8 writing board. I think about what his weakness was the week before, and make sure to teach him how to avoid the error before he starts the following week's assignment. I definitely read the full text of upcoming week over the weekend so I know where the tough spots are and can prep for them. You appear very happy with WWS and Killgallon, but also say that you are bringing in key things that you have learned through reviewing the other curricula. Writing is our focus this year as I am trying to bring him up to speed. I am very pleased with WWS because it is doing just that. But I have a separate 1 hour time slot that I do writing/thinking with my ds. This year, we have written together 2 literary analyses, 2 persuasive essays, and evaluated a bunch of persuasive essays from the NYT using AoA's fallacies. I have also been teaching him for a full year how to answer comprehension/analysis questions from the review sections of text books (why is this so hard?). How to understand what they are asking, how to write in complete sentences without making it too long, how to make sure you answered the question. I have also taught him the CC's figures of description which we practice while going for a walk, and next up is doing Theon's 6 parts of a narrative. So yes, I grab from EVERYWHERE. Kind of fun. He loves it. I would like to trust that SWB knows what she is doing My older son will be ahead of her publishing schedule or I would probably just stay with WWStyle for high school. Interesting that as much as I like WWS, I really dislike WWE.:tongue_smilie: And my younger son HATES it. He is currently using IEW and writing a report on Bactrian Camels.:001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tattarrattat Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Killgallon does these things in a straight-forward, easy-to-implement manner. Thank you for putting this together. So helpful! We plan to use WWS for next year, and I just ordered Killgallon to supplement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Create Your Ritual Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 This is just what I wanted to hear. ;-) Thanks for laying it out like that. Can I ask about your 2 literary analyses and persuasive essays that you worked on separately. Did you do this using the skills learned in WWS, or was this something separate? Also I have heard a lot of good things about AofA. Clearly you are enjoying it. ;-) Thanks Lewelma for sharing all this information with us. It is outstanding! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Can I ask about your 2 literary analyses and persuasive essays that you worked on separately. Did you do this using the skills learned in WWS, or was this something separate? I have been listening to SWB's lecture on literary analysis, so we tried it. First, as she recommends we did a few orally, then we wrote some down together (I typed). As for the persuasive essay, one of his school friends had to write an essay on bike lanes in the city, so we decided to try it. The hardest part was coming up with the thesis, we used the Lively Art of Writing to teach us how to do it. I've copied these below. ETA: To make it more fun, I have taken the opposing side of the issues and written up my own persuasive essay. I wrote up that bikes were a hazard in the city. To bad I did not save my essay. It was very fun to compare them. Also I have heard a lot of good things about AofA. Clearly you are enjoying it.AoA is GREAT. We love it. It really helped us find the problems with the 1 bad editorial we read. It was so confusing that we decided to try to outline it. Boy was it a mess and then we found 3 different fallacies in it. We felt so good about ourselves! By the way, I don't agree with ds's interpretation of the Giver, but I think he needed for this to be true for his own piece of mind. Release in the Community In the Giver by Lois Lowry, Dad does know that he killed the twin when he released him. When dad releases the smaller twin, he only demonstrates pleasure in creating a good atmosphere for the baby. After he injects the baby with poison, he says “cheerfully”, “'all done, that wasn't so bad was it?'” Dad also does not recognize the baby's “jerking movement” as death throws, and does not know the baby was dead when “his head fell forward, his eyes [stayed] half open.... [and his body] was still.” He does not have Jonas' memory of the death of the soldier for comparison. Finally, when talking about release to Jonas, the Giver says, “'They can't help it. They know nothing....It is what he was told to do. He knows nothing else.'” The Giver believes that Dad did not know that he was killing the twin, but was only doing his job as he was trained to do. Release in the community is viewed positively, and only the Giver and Jonas know what it really is. Bike lanes are environmentally friendly and help manage city traffic. Although bike lanes do not isolate bikes when turning, they isolate bikes the majority of the time. Bikes also keep people fit so making bike lanes would lessen obesity. In addition, bike lanes stop city congestion by reducing the number of cars and keeping the slower moving bikes away from motorized vehicles. But most importantly bikes produce no greenhouse gases and in so doing will slow global warming. Thus, I believe that bike lanes should be built and bikes encouraged. Edited February 17, 2012 by lewelma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Create Your Ritual Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I think I just got a giddy high off of these posts .. lol. It is so nice to get all the jumbled mess in my head figured out, and have someone remind me of where I am going, how to get there, and what I personally need to do to begin the process. I believe I have done right by my dc so far, but it is going to require more effort on my part to automatically be able to sit down like you are doing with your dc and have these kinds of discussions with them. Good job Lewelma! I am so coming to visit you one day. ;-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TCB Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 We are also using Killgallon with Writing With Skill for 5th/6th grade. We are too! More good luck than good judgement on my part but pleased to read this seems like a good combination. Thanks for sharing all this good information Ruth. Trenna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I have a few questions and observations after reading these posts. The OP mentioned that the progym does not cover everything in Corbett, but it wouldn't since the progym are pre-rhetoric exercises. Also, CW Homer has an entire section on retelling non-fiction narratives, so the narrative work isn't limited only to fiction. We haven't found any significant difference in retelling a narrative, fiction or non-fiction. After the student learns how to retell a narrative, they should be able to retell any narrative. I asked this on another thread, but didn't get a response. I see mothers combining other writing materials with WWS and wonder why. Isn't it a full writing curriculum? Doesn't WWS include copia work? If so, why the addition of Kilgallon? Edited February 17, 2012 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I am interested in mothers who are combining CW with WWS. How are you doing this? Are your students doing all the anlalysis work in CW; i.e. Basic Questions, Theon's Six, hierarchical outlining, summary sentences, summary, precis, word analysis and imitation, sentence analysis and imitation, diagramming, etc.? If so, do you alternate all of this with WWS on the same day or do you have some other type of schedule? Edited February 17, 2012 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snickerdoodle Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I am interested in mothers who are combining CW with WWS. How are you doing this? Are your students doing all the anlalysis work in CW; i.e. Basic Questions, Theon's Six, hierarchial outlining, summary sentences, summary, precis, word analysis, sentence work, etc.? If so, do you alternate all of this with WWS on the same day or do you have some other type of schedule?I was wondering that too. My son takes SO LONG to do each day's analysis that he is doing the drafts and such on subsequent days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Togo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) NA Edited February 19, 2012 by 1Togo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 The OP mentioned that the progym does not cover everything in Corbett, but it wouldn't since the progym are pre-rhetoric exercises. I must not have been very clear, Corbett does not discuss the progym at all. What has confused me (and others) about CW is that it uses the progym exercises all the way up and through rhetoric (12th grade). So CW is not just pre-rhetoric even though it is using the progym, pre-rhetoric exercies, as its foundation. Obviously, the later books have not been published, so it is hard to see how she will finish the job. And I will reiterate that CW is the most complete program out there, no need to supplement at all. Also, CW Homer has an entire section on retelling non-fiction narratives, so the narrative work isn't limited only to fiction. Absolutely true, but WWS does lots MORE non-fiction, because it is not doing any fiction. And WWS parses non-fiction writing in ways that Homer does not begin to approach. We haven't found any significant difference in retelling a narrative, fiction or non-fiction. After the student learns how to retell a narrative, they should be able to retell any narrative. yes and no. If you have only done WWS, I do not think you would be able to write stories as well as a student that had studied Theon's 6 components of a narrative. I think that WWS and Homer attack narrative and descriptive writing but each focus on a different part with maybe only 30% overlap. If we had all the time in the world, I think a student could learn lots by doing both. I asked this on another thread, but didn't get a response. I see mothers combining other writing materials with WWS and wonder why. Isn't it a full writing curriculum? Doesn't WWS include copia work? If so, why the addition of Kilgallon? So far in WWS there is not a lot of copia work (but we have not see the later books), not nearly as much as in CW (maybe 10% of the amount). I suppose it depends on if your child needs more help with her elocution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lewelma Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I am interested in mothers who are combining CW with WWS. How are you doing this? Are your students doing all the anlalysis work in CW; i.e. Basic Questions, Theon's Six, hierarchical outlining, summary sentences, summary, precis, word analysis and imitation, sentence analysis and imitation, diagramming, etc.? If so, do you alternate all of this with WWS on the same day or do you have some other type of schedule? Since WWS is a 4 day program, I plan to do the 6 sentence shuffle on Fridays. Word and sentence analysis and imitation I will do with Killgallon, also on Fridays but not at the same time. Diagramming we do with grammar. I plan to use Theon's 6 questions when discussing literature and working on critical reading, but we will not be writing stories. WWS has LOTS of summaries, precis, and outlining, so no need to add more of that. Bitsy I know, but my ds(11) loves WWS and his writing is improving very quickly. We will not be switching off of it even though I really like CW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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