tntgoodwin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) nm, didn't realize John Piper was a controversial figure around here. Edited February 16, 2012 by tntgoodwin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enviromommy Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/five-reasons-i-believe-romans-1126-means-a-future-conversion-for-israel Was wondering what you all think of this. I usually agree with Piper, but I don't know if I think he is right on this or not. I need to look more into this topic I suppose. Even with a warning of "CC," I have to say this may be the most offensive thing I have ever seen posted here. And that's all I'm going to say about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 tnt, I really think you ought to delete that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Even with a warning of "CC," I have to say this may be the most offensive thing I have ever seen posted here. And that's all I'm going to say about that. :iagree: To suggest Jews are "ungodly" is beneath contempt. John Piper's well known sexism already made him a figure of disrepute, but this takes the cake. Bleh! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindyD Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't agree with that interpretation personally. I like Piper, but I have to diverge on him with this one. However, I do know many Christians that believe this. I don't find it offensive though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enviromommy Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 nm, didn't realize John Piper was a controversial figure around here. It's not about "John Piper" versus not "John Piper." Were you not aware that there are Jews who post here? Could you actually think it would not be offensive to link to a piece saying that the Jews are doomed unless they all convert to Christianity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's not about "John Piper" versus not "John Piper." Were you not aware that there are Jews who post here? Could you actually think it would not be offensive to link to a piece saying that the Jews are doomed unless they all convert to Christianity? Or that they were otherwise "ungodly?" It's not cool. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's not about "John Piper" versus not "John Piper." Were you not aware that there are Jews who post here? Could you actually think it would not be offensive to link to a piece saying that the Jews are doomed unless they all convert to Christianity? You could remove the link from your quote of the OP, as well as your posts, and this can die out. The OP removed his in order to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's not about "John Piper" versus not "John Piper." Were you not aware that there are Jews who post here? Could you actually think it would not be offensive to link to a piece saying that the Jews are doomed unless they all convert to Christianity? :iagree:I'm embarrassed for all Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Wow! :blink: People actually believe this vitriol?? I'm stunned. And sad for them. What a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enviromommy Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 You could remove the link from your quote of the OP, as well as your posts, and this can die out. The OP removed his in order to do so. Thanks for the suggestion, but I think it's better to shine a light on ignorance than to hide it and hope it goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Tony, I know there are a lot of smart people here. You might be better served by religious boards out there with a focus on topics such as these. We may talk about a lot of things other than homeschooling: recipes, what should Impish do about her MIL and post pics of men in kilts. But those things don't (generally) sap the time and energy of the moderators. There are lots of schools of thought out there and, forgive me, but you seem like someone scrambling in the dark to figure out what they believe. I think your *best* bet is to do more reading and study. Why do Calvinists believe X? Why do Arminians believe Y? Why do Christian URs believe Z? It is complicated. The more you understand the various stances out there, the less often you will step in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Thanks for the suggestion, but I think it's better to shine a light on ignorance than to hide it and hope it goes away. That's was not my hope/intention. My hope is that we could believe the best about people, and not stir up strife. I was glad to see him take his post down (for whatever reason), and thought we'd all be better served by not getting into a shout match over a fringe pastor's writings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 That's was not my hope/intention. My hope is that we could believe the best about people, and not stir up strife. I was glad to see him take his post down (for whatever reason), and thought we'd all be better served by not getting into a shout match over a fringe pastor's writings.Maybe (just maybe) the issue is that the OP said "around here" as if this would only be offensive "here". And the problems is that Piper, unfortunately, is not just some fringe pastor. Some people who agree that Fred Phelps is a fringe lunatic also think John Piper is mainstream and just fantastic. I don't see it as not believing the best about tnt. I agree with Mrs. Mungo -- he seems like he is scrambling and stepping in it as he does. It seems like a very genuine question and lack of understanding on his part -- I hope this leads to realizing why he is rightly a figure of disrepute. (I suppose this is where I should duck and run.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I don't think of John Piper as a fringe pastor. People quote him all the time on the boards. They are just usually more subtle. eta: I am believing the best of Tony, that he has seen people quote John Piper and didn't realize that Piper is controversial in many circles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halftime Hope Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) :iagree: To suggest Jews are "ungodly" is beneath contempt. John Piper's well known sexism already made him a figure of disrepute, but this takes the cake. Bleh! Bill But isn't that the whole crux of God's dealings with mankind, as shown throughout the entirety of Scripture? Anyone who rejects God is by definition ungodly. It is a judgement, yes, but not one without compassion, for Jesus cried out that he would have "gathered Jerusalem," but [they] would not. (Matthew 23.) God is the one who thought up redemption, and chose in what form He became incarnate. If I reject that because it doesn't meet my expectation for what I think an incarnation should look like, am I not twice "ungodly"? Edited February 16, 2012 by Valerie(TX) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 But isn't that the whole crux of God's dealings with mankind, as shown throughout the entirety of Scripture? Anyone who rejects God is by definition ungodly. It is a judgement, yes, but not one without compassion, for Jesus cried out that he would have "gathered Jerusalem," but [they] would not. (Matthew 23.) There have been some good, informative threads recently about the Jewish faith and what, from their perspective (instead of from a Christian's perspective), their relationship with God is like. I'd highly recommend reading them. I'm so glad I did, it helped me a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 ...the problem is that Piper, unfortunately, is not just some fringe pastor. I don't think of John Piper as a fringe pastor. Yeah, I do know he's not a fringe pastor, actually -- he is (a fringe pastor) in my circle of faith, but I realize he's considered pretty "mainstream" in evangelical circles. I could have worded that better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm sorry everybody, could we move on though? I seriously had no idea that posting a link expressing a standard tenet of Christian orthodoxy (that tenet being that non-Christians won't go to heaven without believing in Christ first), in a thread marked CC, would cause ANY strife. I have removed it from the OP, and would appreciate it if this thread died. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Wow! :blink: People actually believe this vitriol?? I'm stunned. And sad for them. What a shame. Yes. For some people, these things are downright loving compared to what they were brought up with. Best case scenario -- Piper serves as a stop along the way as they find their way out. But a lot of people find him to be mainstream, easy on the ears, and they wholeheartedly believe that what he says is true Christianity. (Thank you for being sad for them, and not slamming them. Some just truly do not know any better.) Edited February 16, 2012 by Clairelise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm sorry everybody, could we move on though? I seriously had no idea that posting a link expressing a standard tenet of Christian orthodoxy (that tenet being that non-Christians won't go to heaven without believing in Christ first), in a thread marked CC, would cause ANY strife. I have removed it from the OP, and would appreciate it if this thread died. Haha, now I have a comment. This isn't necessarily a standard tenet in the Church. Maybe the evangelical church, but not in the church as a whole worldwide. It's not something we say in the Orthodox church, I know. We don't know the eternal fate of souls -- only God does and we leave that up to Him. So maybe it'd be good to realize that? Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 There have been some good, informative threads recently about the Jewish faith and what, from their perspective (instead of from a Christian's perspective), their relationship with God is like. I'd highly recommend reading them. I'm so glad I did, it helped me a lot. Could you point me in the direction of these threads if you still have the links? I think I missed them and I'm very interested in reading about this. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tntgoodwin Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Haha, now I have a comment. This isn't necessarily a standard tenet in the Church. Maybe the evangelical church, but not in the church as a whole worldwide. It's not something we say in the Orthodox church, I know. We don't know the eternal fate of souls -- only God does and we leave that up to Him. So maybe it'd be good to realize that? Just a thought. Fair enough. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 But isn't that the whole crux of God's dealings with mankind, as shown throughout the entirety of Scripture? Anyone who rejects God is by definition ungodly. It's completely offensive to say that the Jews have "rejected God." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellesmere Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm sorry everybody, could we move on though? I seriously had no idea that posting a link expressing a standard tenet of Christian orthodoxy (that tenet being that non-Christians won't go to heaven without believing in Christ first), in a thread marked CC, would cause ANY strife. I have removed it from the OP, and would appreciate it if this thread died. I don't think you meant to cause strife. I really believe that. But it's precisely the CC mark that is a problem. Do you care that this is not a standard tenet? Do you want to learn? Did you read Mrs. Mungo's post? Again, I've read enough of your posts to think that you did not mean to cause strife and I really hoped you were interested in learning and not staying in the dark about why this is controversial in a number of settings and not just here. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Could you point me in the direction of these threads if you still have the links? I think I missed them and I'm very interested in reading about this. :) I think this is the main one (click). Go into it a few pages, at first it's about a different but related topic. Make sure to look for the posts from the members who are Jewish. I really, really learned a lot from them. Combined with what I've come to see, in the last couple of years, that it's not up to me (or anyone else) to judge the eternal fate of other people or other groups of people, my view of God as merciful and loving has grown exponentially, as has my understanding of what people of the Jewish faith believe and why. Edited February 16, 2012 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I think this is the main one (click). Go into it a few pages, at first it's about a different but related topic. Make sure to look for the posts from the members who are Jewish. I really, really learned a lot from them. Combined with what I've come to see, in the last couple of years, that it's not up to me (or anyone else) to judge the eternal fate of other people or other groups of people, my view of God as merciful and loving has grown exponentially, as has my understanding of what people of the Jewish faith believe and why. Speaking of the topic, do ya'll still want that Judaism 101 social group? After that thread, I stepped away from the idea since that thread got kinda ugly from a couple of people. I don't have the time or mental energy to joust with people telling me how to celebrate my religion, nor so I wish to be conversion material... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Speaking of the topic, do ya'll still want that Judaism 101 social group? After that thread, I stepped away from the idea since that thread got kinda ugly from a couple of people. I don't have the time or mental energy to joust with people telling me how to celebrate my religion, nor so I wish to be conversion material... When I started the Exploring Orthodox Christianity group, I put it right there in the main text that people read when they join: This is NOT a place to debate about our faith, but a place to learn and talk about it in a positive way (paraphrased). And that ideal has been maintained nicely, for which I'm thankful. It helps for people to know that up front, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Speaking of the topic, do ya'll still want that Judaism 101 social group? After that thread, I stepped away from the idea since that thread got kinda ugly from a couple of people. I don't have the time or mental energy to joust with people telling me how to celebrate my religion, nor so I wish to be conversion material... Yael, I for one would be delighted to read and participate in a Judaism 101 group! Please, please, do start one! :D:D:lurk5: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Nm Edited February 16, 2012 by LibraryLover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Haha, now I have a comment. This isn't necessarily a standard tenet in the Church. Maybe the evangelical church, but not in the church as a whole worldwide. It's not something we say in the Orthodox church, I know. We don't know the eternal fate of souls -- only God does and we leave that up to Him. So maybe it'd be good to realize that? Just a thought. Those who believe in Universal Reconciliation have pretty good reasons and scripture back-up. Just like everyone else. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Those who believe in Universal Reconciliation have pretty good reasons and scripture back-up. Just like everyone else. ;) I'm not understanding your comment in relation to what I said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's not about "John Piper" versus not "John Piper." Were you not aware that there are Jews who post here? Could you actually think it would not be offensive to link to a piece saying that the Jews are doomed unless they all convert to Christianity? I am a Jew who is a born-again Christian and I find this anti-Semitic and offensive....'nuff said.. Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's completely offensive to say that the Jews have "rejected God." Oh, yeah. Yes, that is the part that offend me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 OK, I made the Judaism 101 group. Come join and let's learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enviromommy Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I am a Jew who is a born-again Christian and I find this anti-Semitic and offensive....'nuff said.. Faithe I am confused. Are you offended by what I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeindeed Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 OK, I made the Judaism 101 group. Come join and let's learn! Thank you. I just requested to join. I am looking forward to learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 OK, I made the Judaism 101 group. Come join and let's learn! I sent a request to join! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Speaking of the topic, do ya'll still want that Judaism 101 social group? After that thread, I stepped away from the idea since that thread got kinda ugly from a couple of people. I don't have the time or mental energy to joust with people telling me how to celebrate my religion, nor so I wish to be conversion material... I think it is very kind of you to start a group to create a safe place for learning about Judaism :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Originally Posted by Mommyfaithe I am a Jew who is a born-again Christian and I find this anti-Semitic and offensive....'nuff said.. Faithe I am confused. Are you offended by what I said? I thought mommyfaithe was agreeing with what you wrote (and that the comment you were responding to was offensive). Might have been more clear with the "I agree" smilie first . . . . so easy to be confused.:tongue_smilie: eta: I learned a new trick - quote within a quote Edited February 17, 2012 by gardenmom5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I think it is very kind of you to start a group to create a safe place for learning about Judaism :) :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I'm sorry everybody, could we move on though? I seriously had no idea that posting a link expressing a standard tenet of Christian orthodoxy (that tenet being that non-Christians won't go to heaven without believing in Christ first), in a thread marked CC, would cause ANY strife. I have removed it from the OP, and would appreciate it if this thread died. It's kind of funny, but I don't care because I know a large swath of Christianity believes that Jews rejected Jesus and therefore are ****ed to Hell and that Israel/Jewry must convert en mass for the Redemption to occur. Better I know what people think that be bowled over when push comes to shove, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'm not understanding your comment in relation to what I said. Sorry, I was agreeing and adding to. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tony, You might like www.puritanboard.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tony, You might like www.puritanboard.com :iagree: but watch out! Those guys can be pretty darn tough :D There are some nice people there though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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