I don't understand: expelled from PS.

[Wabi Sabi]

A friend of the family just called, very distraught, because her first grade grandson just got expelled from school for accidentally bringing a tiny pocket knife to school (stories like these always resonate with me because I happen to have a first grade boy who likes to carry a little pocketknife and I could totally see how it's possible to forget to take it out of your coat pocket or something similar.)

 

Anyhow, it got me thinking. I don't understand how a first grader can legally be expelled from school. Schooling at that age is compulsory, how can they just deny a child an education?

 

Also, the grandmother wants me to call her back later this afternoon. She would like to get some information on homeschooling. The grandson has a very troubled past (extremely abusive mother with drug issues, foster care, now living with his father who is recently divorced and single, and not surprisingly he now has behavior issues.) I believe that the father is unemployed/laid off. Normally I might suggest looking into the K-12 program for someone in their situation, but I don't even know if that's a possibility since it's technically a public charter school and now he's been expelled.

 

I'll be speaking to the grandmother later today. What advice would you give them keeping in mind that they probably have very little to no money to spend and I get the feeling that the dad, while well-meaning, probably isn't the most well-educated fellow himself?

[Laura Corin]

There would be a tribunal which you could appeal to in order to get the case reviewed. Even if the exclusion were upheld, the local education authority would not be able to wash their hands of the child: they would have to provide an education somehow, sometimes in another school, sometimes in a special unit, sometimes with tutoring. Of course, children do slip through the net anyway.

 

Laura

[jujsky]

She can purchase K-12 to use if she wants to go that route. Our state doesn't currently have it as a charter, and this is our 3rd year using it independently.

[melissad2]

Yet another reason public school stinks! They don't seem to have usable brain cells. Zero tolerance has poisoned their brains!

[Sue G in PA]

Yet another reason public school stinks! They don't seem to have usable brain cells. Zero tolerance has poisoned their brains!

 

:iagree: If your state has the K12 option through a cyber, your friend CAN enroll him in the public cyber charter. He was simply expelled from THAT specific public school...not ALL. Since he would do the cyber charter at HOME, there really isn't anything the state can do. Expulsion from ps always makes me laugh. It forces the parents to do what public school hates in the first place...homeschool! SMH...

[swellmomma]

generally speaking if a child is expelled from a school they just go register at a new one. Because school at that age is compulsory the board has to provide his education. Whether that is at another school, through coorespondence, a tutor whatever, it is still required that they provide it.

 

If the family wants to go the homeschooling route and you think K-12 is the right fit for them they can still do it even with the expulsion from the other school.

 

What I would actually recommend is that they NOT do K12. I would have them get a decent math book, and do math and reading everyday, but given the nature of this child's past in his short 6 years I think the focus for the remainder of this year and summer should be on stability and relationship. Get this boy into a good place emotionally/mentally and the behaviour will follow. At that point for the fall if they want to keep homeschooling they can go the K12 route, if they do not the can register him in another school for grade 2.

[Murphy101]

The school can't just expell him. They have to provide an education by some means, weekly tutor session, or detention school, or whatever. But if the parent doesn't ask/demand, then they presume the parent will not bother them about it.

 

Here, if a child is going to be out of school for an extended time, the school must offer an alternative comparable education. But again, if the parent doesn't ask/demand it, they don't offer it.

[Dmmetler]

In my district, it would be a "board suspension"-the child would be suspended until a hearing was held by the board, and they would then decide whether the child would be readmitted to his school, placed in an alternative learning environment (although I don't know if ALEs go as young as 1st grade), or some other option. Below a set age (I'm remembering 15, but I can't say that's right for sure), a child had to be provided some form of education when excluded from school, but that can be a teacher coming in a couple of times a week to give the student a few hours of instructions and a stack of assignments. The parent would be responsible for making sure the child is supervised during school hours. If the parent doesn't like the option the district chooses, they're welcome to find a private school that will take the child-but I know that the homeschool cover school we use specifically will NOT take a child who has been expelled from a public school (because they don't want the reputation of doing so), and I imagine many Brick and Mortar private schools feel the same way.

 

In my state, charters are able to pick and choose who they take to some degree, and usually will not take a child with a history of disciplinary actions at their home school. I don't know whether virtual academies have the same rule on this brick and mortar charters do, but I remember a lot of grumbling over the fact that charters would only take the "Good kids" and, when a child got in trouble there, would send them back to the regular public schools, while we just had to put up with them.

 

 

Unfortunately, Zero tolerance laws often mean zero sense applied. I know I had a few situations when I was a teacher with little ones that a child would bring something including a toy weapon for show and tell (like a lego mini-fig or something equivalently threatening), and I'd hurriedly try to find a place to stash it until 3:00, knowing that if anyone saw the child with it, the child would face a mandatory board suspension for a 1/4 in long plastic dagger-and that legally, by not reporting it, I was putting my job at risk. The dumb thing was that a child who actually caused intentional physical injury to another (without using a weapon) wouldn't be expelled in most cases (they'd usually get a mandatory 2 week suspension, and maybe be reassigned to another school), but a child who brought a squirt gun to school would be.

Edited February 13, 2012 by dmmetler

[Parrothead]

Unfortunately for this little boy, the rules are the rules and they are enforced for the safety of all students.

 

Homeschooling 1st grade isn't all that difficult and most of the books needed can be had from the library. There are also lots of things available for free online to teach phonics and math. If he learns to read well and add and subtract well he will be ahead of the game. Anything thrown in for science and history will be gravy.

[Melinda in VT]

Yet another reason public school stinks! They don't seem to have usable brain cells. Zero tolerance has poisoned their brains!

 

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

[Pippen]

In our district that situation with a young child usually results in the district providing homebound or some other alternative instruction for the year.

[littleWMN]

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

 

:iagree:

 

The district can't just expell him from an education at all. They have to provide an alternative.

[curlylocks]

Yet another reason public school stinks! They don't seem to have usable brain cells. Zero tolerance has poisoned their brains!

 

It is up to the PS to ensure the safety of ALL the students. Because of the actions of a few, rules have to be put in place. While I allow my son to carry a pocketknife, he knows that there are certain places it is not allowed to go.

 

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

 

:iagree:

 

When my oldest was in 4th grade, a classmate brought materials to school to build a bomb. :blink: He had a notebook with plans drawn up to kill teachers and students. He was suspended. There was a hearing and he was allowed to return to school. About a month later, he had an "outburst" and picked up a school desk. Enraged, he threw the desk across the room, over the heads of students and BROKE the whiteboard. He was again suspended and was allowed to return to school. Two weeks later, he decided to pick on the wrong child in line (mine) -- shoving her into the wall and pinning her, screaming in her face. My DD had the sense to knee him in the groin. Guess who got in trouble? :glare: (NOT him...) That's when we pulled our children from the PS system.

[SKL]

I would contact the school and ask what the boy's options are, because as someone else said, normally there would be another school or other arrangement the child could attend until he's allowed back in school.

 

I would look into the appeals process, but they might not get a fair hearing without hiring a lawyer. Maybe a nearby law school clininc would be willing to take this on "pro bono." My brother's kid got expelled over something similarly ridiculous (he had a little piece of rubber tubing in his hand while working on a science project, and failed to put it down when another kid attacked him and he hit back - hence he used a "weapon" - hooray for zero tolerance). My brother fought it because it would have prevented nephew from getting into the gifted high school program next year. He was successful, but it was at a cost in terms of time, money, and emotions. (He did have the option to just go to the school where they send problem students - but that was not acceptable. As it was, they had cops stationed in his middle school.)

[ThatCyndiGirl]

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

 

:iagree:

[Mrs Mungo]

A friend of the family just called, very distraught, because her first grade grandson just got expelled from school for accidentally bringing a tiny pocket knife to school (stories like these always resonate with me because I happen to have a first grade boy who likes to carry a little pocketknife and I could totally see how it's possible to forget to take it out of your coat pocket or something similar.)

 

Anyhow, it got me thinking. I don't understand how a first grader can legally be expelled from school. Schooling at that age is compulsory, how can they just deny a child an education?

 

Also, the grandmother wants me to call her back later this afternoon. She would like to get some information on homeschooling. The grandson has a very troubled past (extremely abusive mother with drug issues, foster care, now living with his father who is recently divorced and single, and not surprisingly he now has behavior issues.) I believe that the father is unemployed/laid off. Normally I might suggest looking into the K-12 program for someone in their situation, but I don't even know if that's a possibility since it's technically a public charter school and now he's been expelled.

 

 

I seriously doubt this is a zero tolerance issue. I'm sure there is a pattern of behavior there, based on these statements.

 

The school can't just expell him. They have to provide an education by some means, weekly tutor session, or detention school, or whatever. But if the parent doesn't ask/demand, then they presume the parent will not bother them about it.

 

Here, if a child is going to be out of school for an extended time, the school must offer an alternative comparable education. But again, if the parent doesn't ask/demand it, they don't offer it.

 

This is true. She needs to talk to the school system and figure out what they can do.

[Wabi Sabi]

OK, I'm glad to hear that the school just can't completely write him off and that they have to provide something for him. When I speak to the grandmother this afternoon I'll make sure she's aware of this.

 

As for his behavior, I don't really know a lot of details. The grandmother has mentioned off-handedly several times that he's having issues with his behavior at home and I an only assume that likely extends to school as well. Earlier in the year I did give them information on how to have the family courts make a referral for home-based therapy and gave them suggestions on places to call. Luckily they were able to find a therapist and from what I've heard (second-hand) it's helped. That being said, he's a kid who has had a rough life. He hasn't had much stability in his life and I think (not positive, but pretty sure) this was already his second or third school for the year. I don't know him personally (I just know the grandmother) but it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that this was just the final straw and that he'd had previous disciplinary issues.

[OH_Homeschooler]

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

 

:iagree:

[justasque]

It's important that the family know their rights in their state, and the various educational options that may be available to them, so that they can have a hand in choosing the best educational placement. Sometimes families in this position are told (or encouraged to believe) that homeschooling (or in the case of teens, dropping out) is their only option, which usually isn't true.

 

In my state, the options would include publicly-funded homebound instruction, possibly a public alternative school (though not sure about first grade), public cyber-charter schools (of which there are many), a family-funded home education program, a family-hired private tutor, private school (which of course come in many flavors, from uber-strict to free schools) and several more.

 

Part of the decision, IMHO, should involve assessing whether the knife was a simple oversight, or part of a much more serious pattern of behavior. If the latter, treating the root causes is a must, and any solution would ideally take that part very seriously indeed.

[melissad2]

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

 

:iagree:

I do agree with this also...I just think in some situations schools apply "zero tolerance" without being at all reasonable. Kids are no longer allowed to mess up or make a mistake. If they do they are often sent out to "alternative school" without a second thought.

[myfunnybunch]

Even if the exclusion were upheld, the local education authority would not be able to wash their hands of the child: they would have to provide an education somehow, sometimes in another school, sometimes in a special unit, sometimes with tutoring.

 

This is true here as well. A child cannot be expelled with no plan for continued schooling.

 

If she's not sure about homeschooling, I'd suggest she ask the school for an IEP evaluation based on behavior (and on any learning difficulties the child might also have). If she goes this route, he may end up in a classroom for kids with behavior problems. She might check to see if the district has a school with a support program for kids with special needs, as there may be some in-between options, like attending regular classes with a behavioral assistant.

 

If his behavior is of enough concern, she might want to contact the pediatrician about an independent behavior evalution, probably by a child psychiatrist or psychologist, to get some insight.

 

Cat

[Bang!Zoom!]

:iagree:

 

That's really good advice.

[Dmmetler]

In my district, a psych eval would be mandatory for any child expelled due to violence or bringing a weapon to school, and would occur before the hearing. And, if there's a need discovered, an IEP would be written to be implemented either in the home school, or in an alternative setting. In general, unless it really was a "he just forgot" and the psychiatrist is laughing inside at the idea of the kid being a threat at all, there would probably be an IEP.

 

I don't think the district is going to wash their hands of a 1st grader unless the parent takes them and, before the hearing date (which in my district, would be within 10 school days), enrolls them in another school (including filing paperwork to homeschool), withdrawing from the district entirely. Legally, they'd be setting themselves up for a LOT of problems if they did. And one thing school district lawyers are good at is making sure there's not grounds for a lawsuit. Excluding a 6-7 yr old without an educational plan in place would make the school liable for basically any form of compensatory education the parent wanted to go to court and fight for-which could include some very, very pricey options (some private residential schools for kids with behavioral issues are into 5 figures a MONTH).

[Lolly]

Here, expelled children are given the option of an alternative school. Not a place I would want my child. Or, the parent can pay for private. IF they can find a school who will accept them. That can be very, very difficult without the pull from someone connected with the school (or a minister can often be very helpful here if there is one). Homeschooling is specifically NOT allowed as an alternative method of schooling if a student has been expelled.

[tex-mex]

 

Anyhow, it got me thinking. I don't understand how a first grader can legally be expelled from school. Schooling at that age is compulsory, how can they just deny a child an education?

 

 

The grandson has a very troubled past (extremely abusive mother with drug issues, foster care, now living with his father who is recently divorced and single, and not surprisingly he now has behavior issues.)

 

 

I have yet to read all of the replies, so forgive me if this is repeating what others have said. I taught K-6 grades in the public schools and the scenario you describe does occur. No surprise.

 

That being said, in order to legally expell a child (even a Kindergartener) takes many steps. If by looking at the school calendar they are half way into the school year, I'd suspect there has ALREADY been some previous suspensions by the principal. Or like you shared, some behavior that disrupted the learning process in the classroom. Most likely the pocketknife was the final straw with the teacher and principal -- plus most schools nowadays have a "zero tolerance" policy with weapons. Legally, the knife is a weapon.

 

Expulsion only adheres to the school district. You can move to another school district and attend another school (but the file with the expulsion will follow him as part of his permanent record). And he can do K12, but it sounds like the family may not be up to homeschooling, IMO? I suggest moving to a new school district and getting professional counseling for the kid. Homeschooling and not addressing the issue for misbehavior may make things worse?

[Annie G]

It's hard to say. According to the OP, this is a kid from an abusive home who has behavior problems. If my kid were in this class, this is the not the kid I would want bringing a pocketknife to school.

 

:iagree:

[LAS in LA]

If the father or grandmother are able to make a commitment to homeschooling for the rest of this year, it seems like one-on-one attention from dad (or grandma) could really promote relationship and stability in this child's life. Reading and math and maybe reading some books aloud together sounds like plenty of education to me.

[Virg]

generally speaking if a child is expelled from a school they just go register at a new one. Because school at that age is compulsory the board has to provide his education. Whether that is at another school, through coorespondence, a tutor whatever, it is still required that they provide it.

 

If the family wants to go the homeschooling route and you think K-12 is the right fit for them they can still do it even with the expulsion from the other school.

 

What I would actually recommend is that they NOT do K12. I would have them get a decent math book, and do math and reading everyday, but given the nature of this child's past in his short 6 years I think the focus for the remainder of this year and summer should be on stability and relationship. Get this boy into a good place emotionally/mentally and the behaviour will follow. At that point for the fall if they want to keep homeschooling they can go the K12 route, if they do not the can register him in another school for grade 2.

:iagree: I have children from abusive backgrounds and homeschooling has changed their behavior soooo much. Still not a cake-walk or anywhere close to normal but it has provided the stability they really needed and helped to build positive relationships.

[Gingerbread Mama]

I have yet to read all of the replies, so forgive me if this is repeating what others have said. I taught K-6 grades in the public schools and the scenario you describe does occur. No surprise.

 

That being said, in order to legally expell a child (even a Kindergartener) takes many steps. If by looking at the school calendar they are half way into the school year, I'd suspect there has ALREADY been some previous suspensions by the principal. Or like you shared, some behavior that disrupted the learning process in the classroom. Most likely the pocketknife was the final straw with the teacher and principal -- plus most schools nowadays have a "zero tolerance" policy with weapons. Legally, the knife is a weapon.

 

Expulsion only adheres to the school district. You can move to another school district and attend another school (but the file with the expulsion will follow him as part of his permanent record). And he can do K12, but it sounds like the family may not be up to homeschooling, IMO? I suggest moving to a new school district and getting professional counseling for the kid. Homeschooling and not addressing the issue for misbehavior may make things worse?

 

I had a long post typed this morning, but my computer died. It basically said the above (except it stated that I was an administrative aid, not that I was a teacher :D) The only other thing I had was that they may not have viewed bringing the knife to school based on his behavior. We dealt with a few weapon issues and, typically, kids brought a knife to school and then were caught showing it off. They'd always say, "I forgot I had it." but the fact that they were showing it off spoke to us that the child intended to bring it. My ODS's school had a no cell phone policy. Finding a cell resulted in in school suspension. DS, twice, forgot and had his phone in his pocket at school. When he found it, he told the teacher what happened and was sent to the office to leave it with them and was not penalized (was in fact praised for doing the right thing.) I would assume that a pocket knife might be treated the same way.

 

Also, is the grandmother sure he was EXPELLED and not SUSPENDED? We had a few parents who confused the two. Our district would have done one of three things. If this was out of character, he would have been sent to in school suspension. If this was a repeat offense, but other offenses were not horrific, he would have probably been suspended for 3 days. If, though, he had many violent behavior issues in the past, he would have been sent to a reform school. I can't think of anyone we expelled in the five years I was there, it was rare, but maybe it is more common in other districts.

[msjones]

Yet another reason public school stinks! They don't seem to have usable brain cells. Zero tolerance has poisoned their brains!

 

Really? Goodness. No usable brain cells... :confused:

 

Of course I don't know what really happened, but I'll venture to guess...

 

Most likely it was what is referred to in some districts as an "emergency expulsion." That is vastly different from a permanent expulsion. It usually means the child is sent home for the remainder of the day or possibly several days. An emergency expulsion does not mean the child can never attend again. Not even close.

 

I don't love zero tolerance policies, but in most school districts, there are at least some usable brain cells, and a policy of 'temporary emergency expulsion' might be the result.

[Wabi Sabi]

Just talked to the grandmother.

 

Yes, he was expelled for 85 days. This happened on Friday, the father was told he'd get a letter to tell him when they would have a hearing with the school board. Grandma says he was suspended for 3 days earlier this year for sticking a paper clip in an electrical outlet (and FWIW, was also badly burned.) He's had some issues with not wanting to stay in his seat, being silly, and other similar minor issues. She says that he is a straight A student and is just bored.

 

I do feel bad for the poor kid. He was in FOUR different schools for kindergarten last year. He's been in two schools so far this year. He was removed from his mother by CPS, placed with his maternal grandmother, removed by CPS again, foster care, placed with dad, his girlfriend and all of their combined children (one his, two hers, the baby together), had to move out when dad and girlfriend broke up, moved again when mom and girlfriend got back together. Apparently they're looking to move again very soon because the house they're renting is being condemned! Also, grandmother has suggested family counseling and the girlfriend insists that they don't need it. The other children in the home also have behavioral issues, dad is still unemployed, it's just all rather bleak and sad.

 

The kid has zero stability in his life. None. It's absolutely heartbreaking.

 

And no, I really don't think that this particular family is in a place to be able to successfully homeschool. They're barely holding on as it is. Grandma wishes that the child could just live with her and is willing to take custody of him if the opportunity should ever arise, but in the meantime it seems like the poor kid is just slipping through all of the cracks.

[Gingerbread Mama]

Ok, from the sound of it he has been suspended for the remainder of the school year. He isn't expelled because he can re-enter next year, if I read it right. It sounds to me that his problem might be less boredom and more deplorable loving conditions combined with poor adult interaction at home. I know it's a moot point, but I would think his best hope is going to live with grandma. Her homeschooling might be ideal, given that they could scale back on academics and make part of his school behavior focused, but even if that wouldn't work I bet they'd see a whole new attitude if he was somewhere stable. The girlfriend shouldn't be consulted about his therapy. That should be for dad and grandma to decide, clearly he needs it. Too bad the school didn't make that part of the bargain.

 

If he was removed from the mom via CPS, are they still involved? Could the grandmother ask them to re-evaluate based on the information about the dad and seek custody that way?

Edited February 14, 2012 by Gingerbread Mama

[Jean in Newcastle]

For a first grader, I think that Grandma could just get some of those books from the grocery store for first graders and go over them with him. Or Kumon books. I like Kumon books. It doesn't have to be as much as "we" would do with a first grader. Just enough to keep his skills from deteriorating and perhaps to learn a little bit more since it is one-on-one.

[tex-mex]

Also just getting a healthy role model for the kid helps. I taught in a rural, poor area that had students like the OP described in deplorable living conditions. One student I had was very similar to this family lifestyle too. I would work with what is on hand via library at home for the remainder of the year.

 

Next year, I strongly recommend getting the child evaluated (if he has not been yet) for any ADHD/Learning Disabilities/etc via school or doctors. He sounds hyperactive and easily distracted? Boredom is not a good excuse as it usually is a "cover" for not being able to read (i.e. Dyslexia) or keep up with peers academically (i.e. processing LD). Emotionally, he needs counseling. If not treated early or intervened, this child could spiral down a dark path and drop out by teen years or worse. I hope he gets help. Don't count on parents to help as they are hanging by on a string and may not be knowlegable or interested.

Edited February 14, 2012 by tex-mex

[RanchGirl]

When my oldest was in 4th grade, a classmate brought materials to school to build a bomb. :blink: He had a notebook with plans drawn up to kill teachers and students. He was suspended. There was a hearing and he was allowed to return to school. About a month later, he had an "outburst" and picked up a school desk. Enraged, he threw the desk across the room, over the heads of students and BROKE the whiteboard. He was again suspended and was allowed to return to school. Two weeks later, he decided to pick on the wrong child in line (mine) -- shoving her into the wall and pinning her, screaming in her face. My DD had the sense to knee him in the groin. Guess who got in trouble? :glare: (NOT him...) That's when we pulled our children from the PS system.

 

what??? how awful for your daughter. I am stunned and horrified that a boy brought bomb-making materials and a murder plan to school and wasn't expelled permanently. That school and/or school board could have a serious liability case on their hands.