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Frustrated with my 17yods and his music choice (no little eyes)


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I've know drug users that listen to country music...therefore, country music causes people to use drugs :tongue_smilie: My husband was a metalhead at one time. Never used drugs, read his Bible daily, spent time in prayer, went to church, never got into trouble. His brother listened to country music, robbed video stores, played hooky from school to smoke cigs, got drunk regularly, played chicken with trains, etc. One girl I knew listened almost exclusively to Christian music...she was and is a sex addict. Not buying the music = behaviour theory. In fact, I believe that there have been studies that state that those that have listened to more "violent" music have been noted to actually have calmer personalities and be calmer (will have to find this study). I think there was also a similar study done on video games. It shows one of two things...either the studies are true or the studies can be warped to show whatever you want, including trying to prove the such makes a person violent, etc.

 

:iagree:

 

The most abhorrent person I have ever known listened to soft rock and adult contemporary music.

 

Some of the mot wonderful people I known have tattoos, piercings, and listen to music that is, shall we say, questionable.

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No, the family has not fulfilled the biblical command, none of us really can...it doesn't say try it for awhile and let them decide...it is our responsibility especially when they are under our care to continually discipline our children..not always with punishment but showing them how to be disciplined....parenting is not formulaic but it definitely is a responsibility....the OP specifically said she has tried to lay off the God discussions...I'm not saying engage in theological debate but as Christians all of our actions should be honoring God, it may not be 'discussing' God but just by showing our actions we are sharing God....that is key in all things.

 

..........

 

 

 

Simple reminders that we are commanded to parent and blessings will come...I always tell my son, it's not my rules, but God's rules...now with a son who has not professed a confession of faith...I would pray diligently for him and advise him that as Christians we must raise him this way...no obligation other than he's our son....that would be tougher.

 

Long list of Christian scripture won't get you far with me in terms of discussion. We approach the scripture itself from completely different worlds.

 

I disagree with you from a parenting perspective, from an understanding of development, and in terms of relationship with near adults. "God's rules" for a child questioning the understanding of God they've been taught is not going to go well.

 

Finally, I believe the OP's family HAS fulfilled their obligation to God with regard to the music. And, speak for yourself as to whether *I* have fulfilled my obligation as a parent. :glare:

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It comes down to Philippians 4:8

 

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

 

Heavy metal goes against many of the phrases above, it's not just about personal preference and what one sees is true/noble/right//it's what God sees as true, noble, right etc.

 

Your opinion of the music, and of God in relation to the music doesn't matter. Really. You might be right about the music. Still doesn't matter.

 

Child-rearing wise, micromanaging this is counter productive.

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Your opinion of the music, and of God in relation to the music doesn't matter. Really. You might be right about the music. Still doesn't matter.

 

Child-rearing wise, micromanaging this is counter productive.

 

:iagree::iagree: There are hills I would die on. Horrid music isn't one of them, esp if the kid listens to it alone or with friends & NOT around siblings. I listened to some crazy stuff when I was a teenager, and questioned my faith/checked out very opposite religions, etc. I think it's required :lol: . I'm a quiet, clean-mouthed, and strongly religious person 10 years later. I'm glad my parents didn't turn it into a battleground.

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The only limit for me is when it becomes dangerous.

 

Exactly. But people have different beliefs on what they consider dangerous.

 

If that is what "god" wants you to do when raising your children, that "god" needs a shot between his legs instead of being worshipped.

 

Hmmm... This doesn't make for a very respectful discussion.

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It comes down to Philippians 4:8

 

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.

 

Heavy metal goes against many of the phrases above, it's not just about personal preference and what one sees is true/noble/right//it's what God sees as true, noble, right etc.

 

Not everyone views their world in that manner. Many don't hold to a "God's worldview" (although I do realize that is OP viewpoint), and many don't hold the view that all metal music is ignoble.

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Not everyone views their world in that manner. Many don't hold to a "God's worldview" (although I do realize that is OP viewpoint), and many don't hold the view that all metal music is ignoble.

 

And even those who do approach life through a Christian lens don't apply that view in the same manner.

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And even those who do approach life through a Christian lens don't apply that view in the same manner.

:iagree:

 

A list of bible verses means nothing to someone who doesn't believe in the bible. Even among Christians, there are those that haven't made the bible "God". God also gave us minds, empathy, compassion, common sense, and memories to use as tools.

 

I was not allowed to make these decisions when I was a teenager. So I still did everything, but I just learned to be sneaky about it. I learned the same lessons, but had no one to talk to. It would have helped to have a trusted adult to process beginning my independent life.

 

With my children now, I know I'd rather have them understand why something is not beneficial rather than just saying "no".

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The modern secular system which brought music about mutilating prostitutes to our children (along with many other mysogynistic, child-hating, sloth-encouraging and mind-numbing forms of entertainment) has pretty well proven to be a failure for our society. Nobody has ever become a better neighbor, citizen, or friend by dwelling on that filth. Nobody has ever bettered himself by it, either. Some children go through phases of looking into those dark places and are lucky enough to go through those phases without setting up camp there forever, but it is only once they are out of those dark places that they begin to grow in positive ways.

 

Agree manyfold!

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The modern secular system which brought music about mutilating prostitutes to our children (along with many other mysogynistic, child-hating, sloth-encouraging and mind-numbing forms of entertainment) has pretty well proven to be a failure for our society. Nobody has ever become a better neighbor, citizen, or friend by dwelling on that filth. Nobody has ever bettered himself by it, either. Some children go through phases of looking into those dark places and are lucky enough to go through those phases without setting up camp there forever, but it is only once they are out of those dark places that they begin to grow in positive ways.

 

We modern secular people respectfully decline to agree that the filthy lyrics are our fault, that societies failures are our fault, that degenerate entertainment is our fault. We also respectfully remind you that we love our children, Christians do not own good morals, and many of us follow and even more ancient rule of morality - The Golden Rule.

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:iagree:

 

With my children now, I know I'd rather have them understand why something is not beneficial rather than just saying "no".

 

Absolutely! Nowhere does it say to just say no, there is complete and probably to a fault explanation of the whys and hows....

 

The list of scripture was not to 'chastise' as some of you take it, but to encourage. I think therein lies a big problem...I look at scripture as an awesome expression of God's love for us, while others view it as an admonishment. Raise a child in the way they should go does not mean say no to everything contrary...it means explain why he should say no...what is morally and honoring to God. I am sorry, but no one can tell me heavy metal is either of those in their whole. To allow a child to continue in this path, would be irresponsible.

 

Logical fallacies, sure, some will turn out fine, others will not...but in my book, if you follow the instructions God gave...blessings follow. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.

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We modern secular people respectfully decline to agree that the filthy lyrics are our fault, that societies failures are our fault, that degenerate entertainment is our fault. We also respectfully remind you that we love our children, Christians do not own good morals, and many of us follow and even more ancient rule of morality - The Golden Rule.

 

Absolutely, they are all our faults!! Within each of us is that nature of sin..there is your blame...not one of us is without it.

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Absolutely, they are all our faults!! Within each of us is that nature of sin..there is your blame...not one of us is without it.

 

Ma32peas, I meant that they weren't only our fault. Obviously there are bad apples everywhere.

 

However, I do not believe that men are "sinful" by nature. We're just human. don't think we needed anyone to "save" us from the humanity God gave us. There are bad people in the world. There are ignorant people in the world. And those bad or ignorant people do not belong in one category.

 

Quite honestly, I think some of the art and history religion has given us over the years can be far worse than anything in those music lyrics. Reading the OT gives me chills.

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Logical fallacies, sure, some will turn out fine, others will not...but in my book, if you follow the instructions God gave...blessings follow. Otherwise it's a crap shoot.

 

I think it is still a crap shoot since our children are all different people from ourselves. I don't think it's true that "do this" equals "blessings". I think it's a great way to get people in the seats of a church, but it's not reality. But that's another post altogether....

 

I can instill values and the value of others in my children. I can work hard to do this, but it still their life experience. When they are younger, that is one thing because they are still maturing and have a more limited amount of choices. But we are talking about a 17 year old young man. I'm not saying he knows it all because we are all still maturing and learning about the world.

 

Being controlling does not instill values. That is merely making decisions based on fears that the kid will mess up. Some of the best lessons I ever learned were from messing up and couldn't have come about by any other way.

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Here's what I have always believed: I have no idea where it came from, but I clipped it out a long time ago...

 

"The poet Coleridge was visited by an admirer one day.

During the conversation, the subject got around to children.

"I believe,"

said the visitor,

"that children should be given a free reign to think and act,

thus learn at an early age to make their own decisions. This

is the only way they can grow into their full potential."

"Come see my flower garden,"

said Coleridge, leading the man outside.

The visitor took one look and exclaimed,

"Why that's nothing but a yard full of weeds!"

"It used to be filled with roses,"

said Coleridge,

"but this year I thought I'd let the garden grow as it willed

without tending to it. This is the result."

- Unknown

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Hmmmmm...I think this is a sticky situation because of his age. My husband would completely disagree with me on this, FTR.

 

As long as he's paying for the music, I would leave it alone. At 17, this is a decision he needs to reach on his own. I would state my opinion and then let it go.

 

If he's purchasing music using parental funds, however, I would set up his own account and make him pay for questionable music with his own money.

 

Simple sounds and rhythms (not to mention lyrics) affect mood and behavior--a fact which is supported by science. Maybe you could dig up some good research, let him read it and leave the final decision to him. From a scriptural perspective, there are myriad scriptures to support consuming wholesome and positive media. An interesting biblical example is David playing the harp to calm down King Saul and drive away evil spirits.

 

A couple of years ago, I was talking to a friend of mine about music. He used to be really into heavier/harder music. While he still appreciates it and had no problem discussing favorite artists with me, he told me that he avoids certain groups because the music makes him feel angry and aggressive. He commented that he's more likely to drive aggressively if certain music is playing in his truck. It's important to be able to self-assess and determine how media makes us feel and behave. That's a matter of maturity, and it takes some brutal honesty to admit to ourselves that we can be emotionally manipulated by our environments.

 

My vote is to appeal to his intellect and let this be a decision he grows into instead of one that you force.

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We modern secular people respectfully decline to agree that the filthy lyrics are our fault, that societies failures are our fault, that degenerate entertainment is our fault. We also respectfully remind you that we love our children, Christians do not own good morals, and many of us follow and even more ancient rule of morality - The Golden Rule.
What's the golden rule again?

 

:lol:

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Replying to the bolded part of your comments:

We have done this with him. We have sat down on several occasions and honestly listened to the music and discussed the lyrics with him. We have asked him WHY he likes the lyrics, and his response is "I don't know". I am trying to get him to think about the why aspect of it, without it becoming a sermon.

I have to get off line here, but I value everyone's input into this! I will read all responses later on tonight :)

You know, he may not know. I've not searched to find what it is he is listening to, but from the descriptions from some of the other posters it could very well be that your ds isn't listening to the lyrics.

 

I remember some of the stuff I liked as a teen, I couldn't tell you what it was the guys was singing about. As far as I was concerned he was just screaming words. Or maybe the chorus was cool but the rest of the song was unintelligible. Your ds may just like the music, such as it is. And he may not be able to articulate why he likes it. His, "I don't know," equates to when he was 10 and you asked him what he did at little Bobby's house - "Stuff." Depending on his knowledge of music theory, it might just be "I don't know."

 

Alternately it could be that he isn't hearing what you are hearing. Where where you in 1981? Do you remember ZZ Top's song Pearl Necklace. I loved that song. But had no idea what they were actually referring to. My mom heard it and knew it wasn't about a chick wearing a matched set of cultured pearls. :D

Edited by Parrothead
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We modern secular people respectfully decline to agree that the filthy lyrics are our fault, that societies failures are our fault, that degenerate entertainment is our fault.

 

#1. "...the secular system which brought us music about mutilating prostitutes," I said.

 

This is a simple matter of grammar.

 

Are you part of the secular system which brought us that music? If so, I stand by my words that what you have done is degenerate, and you have personally made the world worse by writing, producing, and marketing evil.

 

Oh, you never did that, and neither did any of your friends or any 'secular' person you know? Then I wasn't talking to or about you, was I?

 

Are you a person who holds beliefs which you identify as secular but had nothing to do with bringing Satanic, demonic, or otherwise godless entertainment to the youth of today? You never did that? Then you are one of us innocents reaping the whirlwind.

 

We also respectfully remind you that we love our children, Christians do not own good morals...

 

I never said Christians own good morals. I also referred to the morality of Jews, Muslims, and various people groups who worship a deity, and I acknowledged that I was perfectly aware that non-religious people have a moral code/value system that they choose to follow.

 

I said that Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe, from our various Holy Scriptures, that raising our children according to God's will is something we feel we must do because God said if we love our children we will do that. He said a father who does not teach or discipline his son hates his son. That's one reason we do what we do, and feel a right to speak into our own children's lives.

 

I did not say non-religious people don't love their children. I'll stand with the Holy Scriptures on that, too, because God acknowledged that of course it is natural affection for all people to love their offspring.

 

I am not going to stand here condemned for something I never said. But I do get the distinct impression that if Christians do stand up for their beliefs they will spend the rest of the day knocking down straw men and detaching themselves from irrelevant and incorrect stereotypes that people paste onto them in random, knee-jerk fashion. I'd much rather answer for what I did say than what I didn't say.

 

Grammar and Logic are important subjects according to our host's book, The Well-Trained Mind, because they are essential in discussions of important issues or areas likely to bring up strong feelings.

 

and many of us follow and even more ancient rule of morality - The Golden Rule.

 

Well, the Golden Rule that is most referred to in the West is the one that Jesus came up with, which is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this is the law and the prophets."

 

I think all Christians, especially classically-educated Christians, know that Jesus was not the only religious leader to ever promote a concept built on those lines, though.

 

My second-favorite version is from Confucius: "Do not do unto others that which you would not have them do unto you." I think his version is much easier than Jesus' because I could go live under a plum tree by the creek, or maybe in a cave, never seeing anyone, speaking to them, or interacting with them, and still manage to follow this maxim. Not doing evil to others is the point. With Confucius I have an obligation to be just if a judgment call lands in my lap, but I'm not obligated to go out doing to others on purpose for the sake of it. Jesus, on the other hand, doesn't allow for hermits. According to Him you have to actually go out there and DO to others, and what you do has to be what you wish they'd do to you. Much harder.

 

Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and even Zoroastrianism all have sayings or commands derived from various arrangements of the same set of words spoken by Jesus.

 

****

 

Surely there are no more straw men for me to knock down. Surely I've added all the disclaimers, and I hope my old friendships here will attest to the fact that I don't go around treating others in a bigoted or prejudiced fashion. My record shows the contrary.

 

But I do have a right to my religious beliefs which happen to be shared by millions of people over thousands of years, so I won't be put in a corner, either.

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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btw, I just love how rap and metal are broadbrushed with always having sexual or violent lyrics.

 

:iagree: I am not a big metal fan but I love rap and hip hop of all kinds. It most certainly is not all sexual and violent.

 

Provided that his behavior, schoolwork and community activities are decent and strong, I would consider exploring different kinds of music to be a normal part of growing up. My parents didn't much like my punk and rap music but it did not lead me down a path to evil either. :glare:

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:iagree::iagree: There are hills I would die on. Horrid music isn't one of them, esp if the kid listens to it alone or with friends & NOT around siblings. I listened to some crazy stuff when I was a teenager, and questioned my faith/checked out very opposite religions, etc. I think it's required :lol: . I'm a quiet, clean-mouthed, and strongly religious person 10 years later. I'm glad my parents didn't turn it into a battleground.

:iagree:

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I remember my parents confiscating my NWA tape in 8th or 9th grade. That contained rather....offensive...content, to say the least. It really was quite explicit for that period of time in particular (very early 90s).

 

I was not a bad kid. I had stellar grades, was involved in a ton of activities, was in NHS, took AP classes, held lots of leadership roles, I was actively involved in sports year round (and excelled), etc. I just happened to like some music that was rather...controversial at the time I guess. I don't remember it feeling like rebellion but I'm sure it was to a degree. My parents were horrified but really, I don't think it was a big deal honestly. I wouldn't encourage my kids to listen to such a thing and I'm not sure how I'll handle it when they do, but I know I listened to stuff like that even though I wasn't a "bad" kid. I also don't think it really negatively influenced me.

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We modern secular people respectfully decline to agree that the filthy lyrics are our fault, that societies failures are our fault, that degenerate entertainment is our fault. We also respectfully remind you that we love our children, Christians do not own good morals, and many of us follow and even more ancient rule of morality - The Golden Rule.

 

 

:iagree:YES. I resent that ideology, and am frankly quite tired of hearing it!

 

 

As to the OP's dilemma, I would not make this my 'hill to die on.' I would put restrictions on the listening as others have specified but I would not ban the music outright. I think it's not worth risking damage to the relationship.

 

JMO, as I clearly have no teenagers although I was one less than 10 yrs ago :D.

Edited by waa510
spelling :)
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However, I do not believe that men are "sinful" by nature. We're just human. don't think we needed anyone to "save" us from the humanity God gave us.... Reading the OT gives me chills.

 

Ah! Then you see we will never agree on our approaches or suggestions in this case. I clearly see man as being sinful by nature.

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one…there is none who does good, no, not one."

Oh, and I absolutely believe that without a Savior we are forever separated from God. I respect your beliefs and I hope you will respect mine...I responded to the OP b/c she professed her beliefs and the tenets held above are generally widely accepted throughout Christianity.

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#1. "...the secular system which brought us music about mutilating prostitutes," I said.

 

This is a simple matter of grammar.

 

Are you part of the secular system which brought us that music? If so, I stand by my words that what you have done is degenerate, and you have personally made the world worse by writing, producing, and marketing evil.

 

Oh, you never did that, and neither did any of your friends or any 'secular' person you know? Then I wasn't talking to or about you, was I?

 

 

I truly can't believe I'm wading into this discussion. But as you have mentioned grammar . . .

 

Traditional usage rules dictate that we use "that" for restrictive clauses and "which" for non-restrictive ones. For example, if I say:

 

Smoothies that contain bananas are vile.

 

I am making a statement about some smoothies, namely those that contain bananas. I am not making any statement about blueberry or raspberry or kale smoothies. On the other hand, if I say:

 

Smoothies, which contain bananas, are vile.

 

Then I am actually making two statements. First, I am asserting that smoothies (all of them) are vile. I am further asserting that smoothies (all of them) contain bananas.

 

Now one could argue with either of my statements, but it would be best to know what I intended.

 

When you wrote,

 

The modern secular system which brought music about mutilating prostitutes to our children (along with many other mysogynistic, child-hating, sloth-encouraging and mind-numbing forms of entertainment) has pretty well proven to be a failure for our society.

 

your use of "which" appears to me to make two statements:

 

1. The modern secular system as a whole brought depraved entertainment to our children.

2. The modern secular system has been a failure for society.

 

Perhaps that is not what you intended! Perhaps you meant instead:

1. A part of modern secular society brought depraved entertainment to our children.

2. This part of modern secular society is a failure.

 

In that case, a restrictive "that" would have clarified your position.

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Here's what I have always believed: I have no idea where it came from, but I clipped it out a long time ago...

 

"The poet Coleridge was visited by an admirer one day.

During the conversation, the subject got around to children.

"I believe,"

said the visitor,

"that children should be given a free reign to think and act,

thus learn at an early age to make their own decisions. This

is the only way they can grow into their full potential."

"Come see my flower garden,"

said Coleridge, leading the man outside.

The visitor took one look and exclaimed,

"Why that's nothing but a yard full of weeds!"

"It used to be filled with roses,"

said Coleridge,

"but this year I thought I'd let the garden grow as it willed

without tending to it. This is the result."

- Unknown

I let my vegetable garden grow wild this year, I never got around to tending it. It is giving us buckets of tomatoes each day, there are at least 20 pumpkins growing, multiple varieties of herbs as well as various other random edible things and lots of flowers. Are there weeds, sure but they are not taking over. Leaving it to find it's own way has been remarkably successful.

 

Ah! Then you see we will never agree on our approaches or suggestions in this case. I clearly see man as being sinful by nature.

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no not one…there is none who does good, no, not one."

Oh, and I absolutely believe that without a Savior we are forever separated from God. I respect your beliefs and I hope you will respect mine...I responded to the OP b/c she professed her beliefs and the tenets held above are generally widely accepted throughout Christianity.

What a sad view of humanity. I believe pretty much the exact opposite, people are good, people are noble, people are kind hearted, people are good intentioned. Are there exceptions to this? Sure. But I'm not going to approach the world as if everyone were the exceptions.

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Well, I don't have any teenagers yet, but here are my thoughts (which probably aren't worth much ;) )

First of all, I remember LOVING Eminem and Blink 182 at one time. I downloaded Eminem's songs on Napster (back in the day :lol: ) and I owned a Blink 182 cd. Neither of these were horrible. Honestly, the style of Blink 182 is still one of my favorites. And I love rap. But I don't curse, and over time, I just kind of grew out of the music that did. I didn't see the need in exposing my children (I had my oldest when I was 21) to music that was questionable in nature in any way - whether in content with sexu@lity, cursing, whatever - when it wasn't necessary. My grandparents didn't know of my music choices, so it was never something that was an issue with them. But I guess I just wanted to give my viewpoint, since I grew out of it myself as a Christian, even though I know what I was listening to and what your son is listening to are two totally different things.

Second, I have to put in a plug (is that allowed??) - would your son like Blood of the Martyrs? They're a death metal type Christian band. They have an album out that can be downloaded on iTunes.

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Yes, I did. I've never heard of them, I've never heard their music that I know of, and I actually did google some lyrics including Recreant.

 

Whether the lyrics are metaphorical, or they are someone poetically lashing out at a real person or event, they are only words. Actions speak louder than words.

 

Although I don't care for death metal myself, I do like progressive metal. My 14yo's musical tastes delve into death metal, hardcore, screamo, etc. But he's choosy about it. He likes some of the music, not necessarily the words.

 

Remember when Ozzy Osbourne was the big musical evil? Now he's an old fogey, somewhat of a joke. We who listened to him then are now productive members of society, caring homeschooling parents, community leaders...

 

If you "eh" about it, he'll probably just listen to the songs he likes and eventually move on.

 

:iagree:

 

When I was 16/17 yrs old, my friend introduced me to some pretty explicit rap music. We listened to it all the time, but it was just a phase. It never changed my behavior (I was quite a prude, actually). I don't know why it interested me at the time...I guess it was my own mini-rebellion (though my parents didn't know about it, as I never actually owned any rap tapes. This was back when we listened to cassettes. :lol:)

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Here's what I have always believed: I have no idea where it came from, but I clipped it out a long time ago...

 

"The poet Coleridge was visited by an admirer one day.

During the conversation, the subject got around to children.

"I believe,"

said the visitor,

"that children should be given a free reign to think and act,

thus learn at an early age to make their own decisions. This

is the only way they can grow into their full potential."

"Come see my flower garden,"

said Coleridge, leading the man outside.

The visitor took one look and exclaimed,

"Why that's nothing but a yard full of weeds!"

"It used to be filled with roses,"

said Coleridge,

"but this year I thought I'd let the garden grow as it willed

without tending to it. This is the result."

- Unknown

Many weeds are medicinal, stronger, and beautiful in and of themselves ;) (yes, I know what your point is...I just hate that so-called weeds get the bad rap...pun not intended)

 

There is, however, the argument made against greenhousing plants for too long.

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I liked rock with horridly sexual, and abusive, lyrics at that age. I grew out of it, and never ever acted on any of it. I married my first sexual experience. I never did drugs, ever. And I didn't drink until I was married and had a kid. But man, did I love the s#x, drugs, and rock and roll type music. It was a way to rebel passively, without actually doing those things.

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I truly can't believe I'm wading into this discussion. But as you have mentioned grammar . . .

 

Traditional usage rules dictate that we use "that" for restrictive clauses and "which" for non-restrictive ones. For example, if I say:

 

Smoothies that contain bananas are vile.

 

I am making a statement about some smoothies, namely those that contain bananas. I am not making any statement about blueberry or raspberry or kale smoothies. On the other hand, if I say:

 

Smoothies, which contain bananas, are vile.

 

Then I am actually making two statements. First, I am asserting that smoothies (all of them) are vile. I am further asserting that smoothies (all of them) contain bananas.

 

Now one could argue with either of my statements, but it would be best to know what I intended.

 

When you wrote,

 

The modern secular system which brought music about mutilating prostitutes to our children (along with many other mysogynistic, child-hating, sloth-encouraging and mind-numbing forms of entertainment) has pretty well proven to be a failure for our society.

 

your use of "which" appears to me to make two statements:

 

1. The modern secular system as a whole brought depraved entertainment to our children.

2. The modern secular system has been a failure for society.

 

Perhaps that is not what you intended! Perhaps you meant instead:

1. A part of modern secular society brought depraved entertainment to our children.

2. This part of modern secular society is a failure.

 

In that case, a restrictive "that" would have clarified your position.

 

 

Just wanted to say thanks for clearing that up - didn't feel like typing it all myself :)

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What a sad view of humanity. I believe pretty much the exact opposite, people are good, people are noble, people are kind hearted, people are good intentioned. Are there exceptions to this? Sure. But I'm not going to approach the world as if everyone were the exceptions.

 

This sad view of humanity is what God details and describes for us in His Word. In my view, trusting the Creator over the creation is more logical. An engineer creates something, a car, a robot, a radio...the engineer knows every component of his creation, for the creation to decide for itself how it is made up does not make sense. As the OP stated, she is a Christian, so there are certain beliefs that dictate how we respond to events, those who do not hold those tenets/views may or may not respond the same way...but dismissing beliefs of Christianity as sad is not what the OP was asking...

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He and his wife have raised 3 boys, run a group home (twice) for troubled teens, and my son ADORES them.

 

It sounds like this was started b/c of peers. I would recommend reading "Hold On To Your Child"...it's very interesting about competing attachments and that sounds like what is going on with your son.

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Cosmos, the way I wrote it left room for either giving me the benefit of the doubt or assuming the worst. Obviously, the worst was assumed.

 

The other problems I addressed make me extremely doubtful that I would have been given the benefit of the doubt if I had added the word "that." I already had half a dozen disclaimers in place for everything I said, and those disclaimers and explanations were flatly ignored. Assumptions were made, cheerleaders joined the illogical and unfair choruses against me, and you think all of that could have been avoided if my grammar in one sentence had just been one step closer to perfection?

 

No, I don't think it would have worked.

 

SailorMom, have you nothing to say about my other points? You feel I've been properly slam-dunked concerning grammar, obviously, but what about your characterization of me as a person who believes that only Christians have morals or love their children? I answered that. Are you waiting for Cosmos to correct my logic so you can use this emoticon

 

:iagree:

 

instead of schooling me yourself?

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Cosmos, the way I wrote it left room for either giving me the benefit of the doubt or assuming the worst. Obviously, the worst was assumed.

 

The other problems I addressed make me extremely doubtful that I would have been given the benefit of the doubt if I had added the word "that." I already had half a dozen disclaimers in place for everything I said, and those disclaimers and explanations were flatly ignored. Assumptions were made, cheerleaders joined the illogical and unfair choruses against me, and you think all of that could have been avoided if my grammar in one sentence had just been one step closer to perfection?

 

Perhaps! But I can accept that you do not agree. There may be history among posters here that I am not familiar with.

 

By the way, it was certainly not my intent to "slam dunk" you in any way. I was merely trying to show where the misunderstanding originated. It also seemed to me an excellent illustration of how grammar truly can affect the meaning in communication.

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Perhaps! But I can accept that you do not agree. There may be history among posters here that I am not familiar with.

 

By the way, it was certainly not my intent to "slam dunk" you in any way. I was merely trying to show where the misunderstanding originated. It also seemed to me an excellent illustration of how grammar truly can affect the meaning in communication.

Thank you. Because I also took it the same way others did due to the wording and grammar. It had nothing to do with presuming the worst. It had to do with how it was worded.

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Thank you. Because I also took it the same way others did due to the wording and grammar. It had nothing to do with presuming the worst. It had to do with how it was worded.

 

Have you not known me at all on these boards? Don't I always stand up for the underdog, the oppressed, and the victimized?

 

Could you not give me the benefit of the doubt, or at least ask me to clarify if you really thought I believed that only Christians have morals and love their kids? Especially when I said the opposite within this very thread??

 

No. Easier for everyone to post a "yeah that" to posts unfairly and inaccurately putting me down, than to remember who I am and what you know of me.

 

The message has been very loud and clear.

 

Not just you, mommaduck. I'm sorry you've been the one to provoke this response, but I have to say it. Some in this thread have actually fought alongside me on issues outside these boards (against the Pearls' teachings, for example) over the years, and in this thread turned and attacked me for positions I never made. Positions I myself have fought for years, and they were attributed to me! Assumption, strawmen, and stereotypes. Others didn't know me from elsewhere or work on those issues, but I've been a member here for a pretty long time and I think I've been pretty consistent. Yet you applaud those who smack me down for things I never said, as if you've never known me.

 

I'm done with this thread. Not flouncing off, I'm over it, but not caring to hear more critique. Just being honest.

Edited by Tibbie Dunbar
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Have you not known me at all on these boards? Don't I always stand up for the underdog, the oppressed, and the victimized?

 

Could you not give me the benefit of the doubt, or at least ask me to clarify if you really thought I believed that only Christians have morals and love their kids? Especially when I said the opposite within this very thread??

 

No. Easier for everyone to post a "yeah that" to posts unfairly and inaccurately putting me down, than to remember who I am and what you know of me.

 

The message has been very loud and clear.

 

Not just you, mommaduck. I'm sorry you've been the one to provoke this response, but I have to say it. Some in this thread have actually fought alongside me on issues outside these boards (against the Pearls' teachings, for example) over the years, and in this thread turned and attacked me for positions I never made. Positions I myself have fought for years, and they were attributed to me! Assumption, strawmen, and stereotypes. Others didn't know me from elsewhere or work on those issues, but I've been a member here for a pretty long time and I think I've been pretty consistent. Yet you applaud those who smack me down for things I never said, as if you've never known me.

 

I'm done with this thread. Not flouncing off, I'm over it, but not caring to hear more critique. Just being honest.

Tibbie, it wasn't a matter of giving you the benefit of the doubt or thinking ill of you. I did neither. I know that people fall all over the map on this issue and I just took you at your words. Note, I didn't reply to it either (other than to say that, yes, it's also how I read it). Please forgive me for having offended you. I was simply being honest in how it read. We both know that internet communication doesn't read tone and can be quite a quandry :tongue_smilie::grouphug:

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OP, this is a tough one because of his age. Any younger and I would be totally banning. But at 17....

 

I would not allow the music in the house, but acknowledge that he still has the right to play/listen to it when he is not under your roof. I would also express my concerns about how the music COULD affect attitude, behavior, and his relationship with God, and that if any behavioral changes become evident you will be addressing those issues with appropriate consequences.

 

I would not allow the music in the house, because although you are acknowleding his right to make choices for himself outside your home, you are standing by your values and setting a standard that YOU consider the music to be offensive and destructive.

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Euh... why do parents think they can determine which music you should listen?

My parents did that too when I was young and it drove me crazy.

They determined that I couldn't have dreadlocks, no piercings, no tattoos. It still drives me mad when I think about it.

I never would want to limit my children like that. They can have dreadlocks, piercings, tattoos as long as they are well informed and I know that they understand the risks and are old enough to make a decision like that. I will first talk about it, but I'm not planning to force them in being someone they're not.

The same with music, they can listen to whatever they want and feel like.

It's not because you're a christian, that you can force them to listen to music you approve.

This is exactly why I'm anti-religious instead of only being an atheist. Things like this go too far...

 

:rant:

 

It is very interesting how you connect these things.

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Here's what I have always believed: I have no idea where it came from, but I clipped it out a long time ago...

 

"The poet Coleridge was visited by an admirer one day.

 

"Why that's nothing but a yard full of weeds!"

 

Not poppies?

Sorry, but Coleridge isn't someone I'd take advice from. Mentally unstable and an addict. :lol:

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First off, thank you for praying for him and for me. :grouphug:

 

Secondly, he has already told us he doesn't "want religion stuffed down his throat"...so I am not. What I am doing is trying to love him, and let him know that he is deeply loved regardless of his music choices. We don't refrain from mentioning Christ (never have, never will), we pray out loud before we eat, we try to make our relationship with the Lord alive (we always have). He still attends church with us without being asked....at least 2 Saturdays each month he and his brother spend the night with the associate pastor and his wife (they are like surrogate grandparents to our boys)....they both ask/beg to go over there. We are so blessed in that regard that we have other Godly people whom the boys adore.

 

Thank you for your insight and prayers!

 

The bolded really stands out to me, and below are lyrics from The Human Condition from Chelsea Grin.

 

Why are we here? A question that no one will ever answer, so think for your ****ing self. Don't believe something cause someone told, you to don't be scared into living someone else's way. Don't just say what you're supposed to say. Speak for yourself, and never give that right away. I'm so sick of hearing people say how I should, how I should live my life and if I don't follow their rules I will suffer the consequence. I will live the way I want to and there's nothing you can say or do that will change the way I think. So save it for someone else. Never be afraid to open up your mind and look at the world through someone else's eyes. This is something you should never forget. If so then it's not really your life anymore. (Don't just say what you're supposed to say. Speak for yourself, and never give that right away.x2) Speak for yourself.

 

Replying to the bolded part of your comments:

We have done this with him. We have sat down on several occasions and honestly listened to the music and discussed the lyrics with him. We have asked him WHY he likes the lyrics, and his response is "I don't know". I am trying to get him to think about the why aspect of it, without it becoming a sermon.

I have to get off line here, but I value everyone's input into this! I will read all responses later on tonight :)

 

I'm not sure it's vital that he understands WHY he likes it, he just does. There are a lot of songs on my itunes playlists that have no meaning at all. I like the music. Sometimes I'll really like the lyrics and it's an added bonus. I love remixes to songs (not all) and the lyrics are irrelevant because songs are put together and the lyrics removed, or 2 songs and their lyrics go really well together.

 

Anyway...

 

The handful of songs I've read seem to be anti-religious (sort of, but it's too late to convey clear thoughts right now). The lyrics fit well if he's questioning the religious beliefs he was raised with.

 

ETA: I reread the lyrics I posted multiple times and only saw one curse word, which I changed, but if I missed one, I'm terribly sorry.

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The bolded really stands out to me, and below are lyrics from The Human Condition from Chelsea Grin.

 

 

I promise you my mother never heard Chelsea Grin, and could out-manner Miss Manners, but she used the phrase "religion stuffed down my throat" within the family. She would have never dreamed of saying to the person's face. It was certainly something she didn't want.

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If there is any way you can embrace the questions he has, now is the time to do it. He needs to know that his brain, and its rational functioning, has value. IMO, he must know that you value his questions and doubts, as that shows evidence of a thinking brain. If your faith cannot withstand questioning and doubts, he will see right through it.

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