nikicole Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Okay, my dd11 is really struggling with R&S English 5 and we're only in lesson 15. Before Christmas we were using Intermediate Language Lessons, but I really felt she wasn't "getting" much from it. We switched to R&S in January. She was doing fine at first, but the diagramming is really stressing her (to tears today!) and she's not retaining a lot from previous lessons. I don't really want to switch again, but the only other thing I can think to do would be move her to R&S 4 (she would think that is just awful, b/c she is more than half thru her 5th grade year). I kind of hate to do that too, but would it help us out? Could we just skim through and pick and choose lessons that would prep her for finishing the 5th grade text? Any suggestions/ words of advice would be much appreciated! Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2_girls_mommy Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 My dd 9 is halfway through the R&S 4. I am so impressed with what she is doing in it: prepositional phrases, beginning diagramming, direct objects vs. predicate pronouns (ie: using 'she' and other subject pronouns in the predicate after a form of be as the verb.) This is all work my sister and I didn't do until middle school. So maybe if you shared that with her there would be no shame in going down to the 4th grade book. In public school, this grammar wouldn't be taught before middle school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Okay, my dd11 is really struggling with R&S English 5 and we're only in lesson 15. Before Christmas we were using Intermediate Language Lessons, but I really felt she wasn't "getting" much from it. We switched to R&S in January. She was doing fine at first, but the diagramming is really stressing her (to tears today!) and she's not retaining a lot from previous lessons. I don't really want to switch again, but the only other thing I can think to do would be move her to R&S 4 (she would think that is just awful, b/c she is more than half thru her 5th grade year). I kind of hate to do that too, but would it help us out? Could we just skim through and pick and choose lessons that would prep her for finishing the 5th grade text? Any suggestions/ words of advice would be much appreciated! Thanks! Are you doing the Oral Review for each lesson from the Teacher's Manual? I've found that helps so much with retention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mandylubug Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 put a big fancy sticker over the number of the book LOL My oldest was the same way last year when I made him step down to 2nd grade math to catch up to level.. but he got over it the first day once we discussed mastery versus "just passing to get by" and he agreed he wanted to understand not just make do. I think if you explain to her she NEEDS to grasp this material and in the long run will make it so much easier on her. My son has caught up after stepping down a level and he is now on track within the same school year.. maybe a few weeks "behind" but who's counting weeks when there isn't a system to compare it to deadline wise? ETA: I am not experienced with this curriculum; just stating my generic opinion! Best Wishes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chepyl Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have seen several recommendations to do the program a year behind. If she is struggling, maybe she has missed some foundational elements of diagraming. I am currently using level two a year ahead of time. But I have looked at 5 and plan to take two years when we get to that book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleBears Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) We can relate to you here. My ds, also 11, started this year w/R&S 5. He got a good chunk of the way throught the book before I realized he was not retaining much. The problem was that I just handed him the book and expected him to do it because he could easily read the lesson himself. I listened to one of SWB audio lectures where she suggests starting in R&S with the previous years grade if you have an older child. We went back to the 4th grade book and I started going over the lessons with him to make sure he understood it. Well, that is just what he needed and he is now retaining and doing very well. I told him that there is no shame in starting with the 4th book because most children do not cover english this way in ps and it is a bit advanced. I also told him it will be easier for him to get used to the format if we start from the ground up. Edited February 8, 2012 by MyLittleBears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane Elliot Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The thing about R&S is it only has 10 levels. So if you do it two years behind, you're still going to finish by the end of high school. I like R&S and have used it for many years with most of my dc. I agree with Judo Mom, you need to be doing the oral review at the beginning of each lesson with a student who's new to R&S, and you should not expect an 11yo to be able to do it independently if this is her first year with it. If you do decide to drop back a grade, consider doing FLL 4 with her instead of R&S 4. There's more review in FLL, and the transition from FLL to R&S is seamless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nikicole Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Yes, we do the oral drill and she's usually fine with that. It's when I leave her alone to complete the written practice that she has trouble with. I think she is just overwhelmed with all the information she's being given and gets confused when left to her own. I try to sit with her most times, but with a 6 and 7 yo in the mix, I'm usually being pulled away. I'll probably end up going with 4th grade (I'd already thought maybe I should cover up the 4!):001_smile: Makes me feel better that some of you agree that I wouldn't be doing her a disservice! Thanks! Edited February 8, 2012 by nikicole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raceNzanesmom Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 We use R & S below the # level, and we do a majority of it orally. If she didn't do 4, I'd back up. Plus, know there's a big jump between 4 and 5. If you continue with 5, I'd slow it way down, do tons together, lots of review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Okay, my dd11 is really struggling with R&S English 5 and we're only in lesson 15. Before Christmas we were using Intermediate Language Lessons, but I really felt she wasn't "getting" much from it. We switched to R&S in January. She was doing fine at first, but the diagramming is really stressing her (to tears today!) and she's not retaining a lot from previous lessons. I don't really want to switch again, but the only other thing I can think to do would be move her to R&S 4 (she would think that is just awful, b/c she is more than half thru her 5th grade year). I kind of hate to do that too, but would it help us out? Could we just skim through and pick and choose lessons that would prep her for finishing the 5th grade text? Any suggestions/ words of advice would be much appreciated! Thanks! Yes, you could do book 4. Also, you could skim through book 4 like you said, picking out lessons that would help her with book 5. Or you could continue with book 5, because book 6 reinforces everything learned in book 5. Book 7 picks up the pace with new concepts, and book 8 reinforces book 7. Then books 9/10 introduce new concepts, and reinforce each other plus all the previous grammar. My 11 year old daughter has the same problem you are describing. We do all the oral review in the TM for each lesson, and she still forgets things. But I can rest easy about that, knowing that book 6 will reinforce. Also, when she forgets, I tell her to look the concept up either in her past lessons or in the index of the book (which helps her to learn research skills). Then she gets her crying mind focused on the task at hand: find the answer to Mom's question - and she usually finds it and says, "Oh yeah! I remember - it's..." I find that grammar is one of those things that just takes time to learn. I basically have to go through the same teaching routine every day - do the oral review, both of us read the lesson, me pick out exercises for her to do (oh, and I let her answer everything orally to me - the only written work she does is diagraming - doing this cuts way down on writing out answers. It also cuts down on her confusion about the concepts, because I am right there to correct her thinking or to help her correct her own thinking); and interwoven in all that is me asking detail-by-detail questions that prod her to find the answers. It's those Mommy-made questions that help her to absorb the concepts so that she can do the diagrams. The other day she had something like 10 diagrams to do, and she got most of them wrong! It was because a new concept was introduced. So I went through every single one of the sentences with her, asking questions. I start with "what is the simple predicate? Don't remember what a predicate is? The verb or verb phrase." "OK, now who or what (verbed)?" She puts those on the diagram. "Now, is there a direct object? Predicate nominative? Predicate adjective?" (and if she doesn't remember what they are, I say "is there a noun receiving the action of the verb? A noun renaming the subject? An adjective describing the subject?" She usually catches on again.) Then I move on to "Are there any adjectives describing any of the nouns you've put on the diagram so far?" And so on. I find that diagraming has to have a set procedure, or my kids get lost in the words. So I make them start with the simple predicate, then subject, then complements (d.o., p.n., p.a.), then adjectives, then adverbs. Well, of course, depending on what they are told to diagram in the sentences. hth I like R&S and have used it for many years with most of my dc. (small hijack) Luann, would you be able to advise me in my R&S thread on the high school board? It seems to me you have gone through books 9/10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 For what it's worth we've switched from R&S to Hake because we wanted a secular book so I'm not currently using R&S right now, but these suggestions are applicable regardless of the program you use. If you slow down and not worry about finishing the book by the end of the year then you should be able to stay with 5, but even if you go back to 4 I would still suggest you do some\all of the following: First, if you aren't doing grammar together then you might want to for awhile. Some of our best aha! and lightbulb moments came from the discussions we've had about grammar concepts and coming up with other examples while working through the lessons. Have her read the lesson and then talk to her about it. Give more simplified explanations if she isn't getting it and then ask her to come up with examples then you come up with examples. Have fun with your examples! We often made up sentences about aliens, annoying siblings, outlandish fairy tales...R&S sentences leave much to be desired in regards to inspiring a love for language. If you can, work on a white board. There is something about working on a whiteboard that just seems to benefit some dc. Your's may or may not be like this. Do the Oral Review section in the TM everyday, and if she doesn't know the answer ask her to go back in her text and find the answer for herself. Don't just give her the answer and expect her to remember it.. Diagram on a white board with different colors for the different parts of speech. If the noun is red then draw the line the noun goes on red too. When you work on paper used colored pencils. Go slow. DO NOT move ahead until she can teach it back to you. Create grammar flashcards with the definitions and examples of each new term. Go over these briefly (5 minutes) everyday. If you'd like to instill a little fun\inspiration into your grammar I would suggest looking at one of the grammar stage Killgallon books. Good luck in finding something that will work for your dd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Create grammar flashcards with the definitions and examples of each new term. Lists, too. Lists of state of being verbs, helping verbs, prepositions, (later) indefinite pronouns, etc.. Anything you think will make study more efficient for her if she has it stored up in her memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5LittleMonkeys Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Lists, too. Lists of state of being verbs, helping verbs, prepositions, (later) indefinite pronouns, etc.. Anything you think will make study more efficient for her if she has it stored up in her memory. :iagree::iagree::iagree: Oh yes, yes, yes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyjoh62080 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 We use R&S English a grade level behind. I let my dd know that it was advanced and most people use it one grade level behind and she was ok with it. I would definitely move bak to R&S 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keyjoh62080 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yes, we do the oral drill and she's usually fine with that. It's when I leave her alone to complete the written practice that she has trouble with. I think she is just overwhelmed with all the information she's being given and gets confused when left to her own. I try to sit with her most times, but with a 6 and 7 yo in the mix, I'm usually being pulled away. I'll probably end up going with 4th grade (I'd already thought maybe I should cover up the 4!):001_smile: Makes me feel better that some of you agree that I wouldn't be doing her a disservice! Thanks! It wouldn't be a disservice at all. Most people use it a grade level behind and we do as well. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBeth Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 If you decide to go back to 4, you could reassure her by blaming yourself. "Oh, Sweetie, I'm so sorry I didn't realize that the R & S levels don't correspond to grade levels, so I bought the wrong book. This level 5 is the one we're supposed to use in 6th grade, so we'll go back and do the level 4 book this year." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danybug Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 We are working in R & S English 5 and currently on Lesson 73. My ds and I actually really like it. It is our first time using R & S for English. So, I called the company when I was deciding what to order. I talked to an advisor and asked if we were switching from another curriculum if it would matter if my ds had no diagramming experience. The advisor said that English 5 has a slow enough approach building that you would not need to have completed 4 prior. So, I am not sure if that helps you out at all. We do all of the lesson orally and then only write the diagramming on a white board. I find the lesson goes faster and smoother orally discussing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 You're not doing Latin? If you add in Latin, and Rex Barks, you can stick with Intermediate LL and it will be fine. The thing wit ILL is that it can't be given as an assignment, you have to teach them. We've used R&S and they don't work for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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