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The "psychology" of obesity?


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Is there such a thing as a "psychology" of obesity - especially in such young people, who 'should' by default care about their image, and apparently they do not? Why would a person have self-control in other areas of life, but not in this one? From what I know, they have not undergone any abuse, do not suffer from any additional conditions.and I cannot seem to individuate any additional factors, it is "pure" obesity.

 

We are not talking "a little overweight", they are obese. I cannot estimate the numbers, but in the 100+ kg group. Maybe even 120+. It is a product of an unhealthy lifestyle, but what would keep the person in that place for so long at such a young age? There seems to be nothing preventing them from doing something about it,

 

a clear-cut self-control and determination issue in my eyes, but I am willing to consider if there is something else known about people like that. Why would they be doing this to themselves? ... Are they just not ready to taker over the control for their life? Is it a pure laziness issue? But why would such a young person not care particularly?

 

As a formerly obese woman, I would suggest looking into the physiology of obesity rather than the psychology of obesity.

 

I have finally gained control of myself, by changing what I eat. All these years, I was trying to eat low fat, whole grain, blah blah blah. I would exercise extensively and feel like I was constantly starving, and just barely keep my weight under control... until I couldn't handle it any more. The "authorities" say that obese people are just lazy and have no self-control. That is not good for one's self-esteem. Especially when NO ONE could have the self control to feel like they were starving, as I did.

 

I watched the movie "Fat Head" on Netflix about 9 months ago, at a recommendation from someone on this board. This movie inspired me to do more research, and completely change the way I think about food. Now I eat virtually no carbs, and I eat a LOT of fat. (My blood tests show much better cholesterol levels now than 9 months ago, btw.)

 

Now I feel like a normal person. Not because I'm a more normal weight, but because I am not starving all the time. When I'm hungry, I feel hunger like a normal person must feel, not the overwhelming NEED to eat like I have felt for the last 10 years. It's obvious to me that I've had a change in physiology, not a change in psychology.

 

I'm not sure how you could help your friend. When you are obese, it really gets annoying to have people look at you like you have no self control, and to have people suggest "miracle" diets. I think the movie Fathead worked for me because it starts out as a counter-argument to Super Size Me, and it's amusing.

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She has probably done some personal introspection of her own, my friend, but chooses to keep those thoughts private.

 

Her lack of explanation doesn't mean she doesn't know what her problem is or what she "should" be doing to solve it. It just means she's not talking.

 

:iagree:

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I don't think there's always something negative involved. Maybe she simply derives a LOT of pleasure from eating, and therefore eats a lot.

 

Not always, but usually. And I say this coming from a family with some larger people and currently losing weight myself. It was not until I addressed the root causes that I was able to start really losing. No amount of intelligence or knowledge or good intention made up for the fact that I was attached to a certain size as a means of self protection and self preservation.

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I will take a stab at this.

 

I agree with some of the strong opinions about EM's attitude and motivation for asking. It comes off a little bit holier than thou, though I am pretty sure she didn't intend for it to be that way.

 

My husband has been trying to gain weight all his life and has succeeded in going from a size 29 waist to a 32. Big deal. He drinks soda, eats junk and loves meat and potatoes. He can eat plate after plate of food at holidays and never gain a pound. He spent two years in New Zealand and the natives were shocked by how much the skinny white boy could eat. He has a desk job and always has.

 

I am fascinated by nutrition, have always eaten very well (whole grains, organic, hate soda, haven't had any hfcs or anything else like it in as long as I can remember), and exercise fairly regularly for months at a time and managed to gain a lot of weight. I know all the rules, know a great deal about nutrition, have taken college nutrition classes, read everything I can get my hands on about the latest trends and research and I am still overweight. I would not say I am unintelligent. I was in the most advanced classes and programs they had, including some newly created special programs for advanced learners in elementary school (back in the way back days before gifted and talented was common in schools). Though I have to say I feel like my brain cells are jumping ship at an alarming rate as I get nearer to menopause, lol.

 

All of that to say it is a bit simplistic to assume weight is simply a matter of self control. It is much more complicated than that.

 

Here are some of the possibilities -

 

As others have mentioned, we never really know what is going on in someone's heart and mind. My first reaction, having been there, would be to wonder what pain or stress or worry or exhaustion is going on in her life that started her down this road. For me, my bodies natural reaction is to store fat. Combine that with a lot of stress and beyond exhaustion raising 3 kids under the age of 4 and turning to carbs to give me the energy to get through the day and night and you have a recipe for messing up your bodily systems in a big way. Lack of sleep causes weight gain. Stress causes weight gain. Eating to give yourself the energy you need to get through the day obviously causes weight gain.

 

Once you are on that road, your body loses its natural ability to sort out the food. You lose the ability to recognize fullness. The hormone leptin has been in the news a lot lately and is generally very low in overweight people, from what I have read. That is the hormone that gives you the signal that you have had enough to eat. I have managed to get that back in line, I think, but for years I could eat enormous amounts of food and not feel full at all. It wasn't that I was ignoring it and just wanted more. I really did not feel full.

 

There are also huge emotional reasons to eat. It is a big distraction from whatever is causing you stress or pain. I have a good friend who was never obese but she lost about 30 pounds and felt good about herself and was doing all the right things. Then her husband needed a liver transplant and she freely admitted to eating because the pain and worry and stress were so overwhelming. Worrying about and thinking about food were a diversion from the life threatening illness.

 

I managed to lose about 1/2 of what I need to by wearing a BodyBugg, obsessing about every single calorie and exercising for 1 to 1 1/2 hours per day. Even then I only lost about 1 to 2 pounds per week. I can assure you my calorie balance was 100% accurate. I was not eating more then I thought or doing less then I thought. I have managed to stablilize my weight for the most part at that level for the last few months but I noticed that it is starting to creep up again. Once your body reaches a weight, good or bad, it works very hard to maintain that weight. I have been procrastinating starting again on the second half because I am tired of thinking about the input/output balance every single second of every day. But that is what it takes to lose weight for me.

 

There is also some news lately about the role inflammation and allergies and such play in weight gain. Allergies seem to be on the rise in the US. More so in other countries based on a research paper I read just this morning.

 

So, all of this boring, personal nonsense to say that there is always more to the story then what we see on the surface. Even if we think we know what is going on. And it has absolutely nothing to do with self control. I would say that is probably where you poked a few raw nerves.

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I suppose in answering your questions I should have added my own weight history. I have been overweight since I was a pre-teen. Lost weight at various times in high school and college. My first real sustained weight loss was when I was in college and had more choice than I'd had growing up in what I'd eat. I also had to walk everywhere and so exercise was no longer just something that humiliated me in gym class, it was just a part of life.

 

Went to grad school, gained back the weight and then some due to stress eating and not having time for exercise. And depression. Whoa, the depression. And when some guy would drive by in his pickup truck when I was out and about and yell that I needed to go to Jenny Craig, that made me go home and eat.

 

Once I started treatment for depression things clicked and I ate because I needed food. I had a very flexible schedule and I made sure exercise was a part of it. I lost about 50 lbs and kept it off until I was married and started having kids.

 

And then well, I had kids. I don't have a flexible schedule. If I don't gulp down my food I feel like I won't get to eat at all because of the constant demands of being home alone with kids all the time. I gained weight during each pregnancy and never took it off between pregnancies. So that is where I'm at now.

 

I can look back and identify why I gained or lost weight at various points in my life, so I know what I need to do and what not to do. I'm just having trouble with the implementation at this point in my life. Maybe your friend is in the same spot.

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Simply because someone has all the other areas of their life so well together is no reason to discount psychological issues with food.

 

It's very hard to make the right choices consistently.

 

:iagree:As some one who is over weight, but is generally speaking in control of the other areas of my life, has the knowledge and the desire for change it is still not as cut and dry as assuming laziness, or a desire to be unflattering etc. Sometimes there is a lot more to it, I weigh the exactly the same whether I eat fast food and never exercise as I do when I eat nothing but healthy foods and exercise everyday. I fluctuate in a 10 lb range but it never goes lower than that. I actually gained weight on weight watchers. When I started going to the gym 6 days a week I lost 10 lbs and GAINED 2 pants sizes in the 7 months I regularily went.

 

There is a lot more at play than someone's knowledge and motivation. Psychology does play a significant part in it even if it is not a food addiction exactly.

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I will take a stab at this.

 

I agree with some of the strong opinions about EM's attitude and motivation for asking. It comes off a little bit holier than thou, though I am pretty sure she didn't intend for it to be that way.

 

.

 

This is how I read her post too. I tried very hard to not hear that tone in it because it was EM and so I know that it is not generally her "style" to come across that way, but I did see it not as actually wanting answers but more rhetorical questions along the lines with "why the heck this this person so lazy, and not give a **** about themselves, when OBVIOUSLY life is so much better when you are thin like me" I am sure that is not how she intended it to be AT ALL. But that is the way it came across when I read it.

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kiana: It's a hell of a lot harder than it seems to readjust your entire lifestyle, including no more eating in front of the TV, no more snacks when you get home from school, no eating when you wake up hungry at 2am, reasonable portion sizes and training yourself to recognize a reasonable portion size, training your body to not be STARVING on a reasonable portion size, etc.

 

This. Totally this. It is mostly ingrained habit and the extremely inactive American lifestyle (compared to many other cultures). Sometimes, it is burying feelings, such as the woman who was attacked who overeats to keep a literal barrier between herself and others.

 

It's also not something you can see quick results on -- if you've been a slob, you can get busy and get the place clean in a couple of days, wash your hair, etc. and you will see immediate results. With weight, it takes just about as long to take it off properly as it does to put it on in the first place, and many people see this as an insurmountable challenge.

 

This too.

 

For people who are seriously addicted to food, as someone else already mentioned, you cannot even stay away from what triggers your behaviours, as we must eat. An alcoholic can avoid alcohol completely.

 

I don't buy the "seriously addicted to food" thing. We are all addicted to food, as we will die without it. Sometimes we just have created bad habits, enlarging our stomachs along the way, as we get used to larger and larger portions. Then, you have an illness or an operation or something, and lo and behold, you can't eat that mountain of mashed potatoes you ate before. It's too much because your stomach has been allowed to return to normal proportions.

 

If we just wouldn't rinse and repeat....

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Thanks for the helpful responses.

So, all of this boring, personal nonsense to say that there is always more to the story then what we see on the surface. Even if we think we know what is going on. And it has absolutely nothing to do with self control. I would say that is probably where you poked a few raw nerves.

I think we speak different languages here, though. I generally speak a different language than most people.

 

I think that I miss, conceptually, some fine points between "coercion" and "self-control". I have been wrestling with this for years. In a nutshell, I tend to think that if there is no outside coercion involved, and no factor of ignorance (not knowing what things are like, what leads to what, etc.), everything is essentially a question of "self-control", because on a very basic level, it boils down to the subject's choice of the course of action.

Most people that I know consider this to be a simplistic concept which misses the psychological gradation of things, so people tell me that I call "choices" also things which most other people would call consider choices only on the most literal level, but would in reality recognize that there are external factors there which affect the person's capacity to fully "make" that choice. Here is where I clash with people, because I somehow do not digest that idea very well. So because of that, I may use the language which is rather impalpable for most people - I have become more aware of it in the past years, trying to adapt that, but I keep stumbling upon difficulties of elaborating my thoughts in what is not my conceptual framework. I would be open-minded to make it my conceptual framework if I were convinced things were so, but so far, I am still stuck.

 

I am not selective in applying that way of thinking. I am not being judgmental by asking, "So, OK, you know this is wrong, nobody is 'making' you do it and you still do it?" - I apply that to everyone, included myself, for almost all issues that can arise. It is my general framework and I cannot seem to let go of it in favor of an idea that there is a psychological gradation there, that not all choices are "equal". That is also why I do not understand psychology, in spite of having read pretty much the equivalent of a degree over the years on various topics, because my conceptual rigidity appears not to allow for some fine distinctions.

 

What I am looking for, and really open-mindedly looking for, and sad that I cannot seem to express myself in ways that would both be representative of how I actually think within my framework and palpable for others, are resources which help me understand that gradation that I cannot seem to grasp. I am lacking in this camp. I would like somebody to spell out for me, like to somebody who genuinely has difficulties processing those ideas, the inner mechanism of weight problems, of addiction that might be a part of the picture, and what motivates what, psychologically. I have not found such resources, not even when in hindsight I attempted to understand my own past issues. I have never found what would be to me a "psychologically authentic" description of what I was going through, and I have NO language of explaining it. Likewise, I cannot understand this situation, or a myriad of other situations - in which things are apparently more complex than "simply making bad choices", but in ways that I cannot fully understand.

 

I was really hoping I would be able to go through this discussion without explicating all of the above, because I hate that conceptual mismatch which makes it difficult for me to talk to other people on some topics. I am really not trying to be obnoxious. I am not asking rhetorical questions. I am not trying to offend people. I am trying to wrestle with some nuances of human inner functioning which, even if they are applicable to me too, have never been explained to me in a language I can understand. If any of this makes sense. That is why I need resources, and descriptions, and being pinpointed what are those additional factors and what causes what, precisely, if I want to understand something, and this is something I would like to understand. The physiology part I can understand to an extent if I catch DH in a mood to explain it to me. I am interested in the psychology part, in the inner reality of that experience, because this is where things often genuinely do not make sense to me.

 

Now I am sad and frustrated because I have obviously managed to create an upheaval about a topic, so instead of helping myself understand something, it seems that I have only managed to vex another ten people. I am sorry. It was probably a bad idea. I did not imagine it this way.

 

I do truly appreciate, however, everyone's effort in sharing their stories, some of them very personal, and other resources which I will try to have a look at now.

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As far as I understand, many severely obsese people suffer from eating disorders: they overeat for psychological reasons, as a coping mechanism, to drown out feelings, to feel better. (Often, they deal with underlying childhood traumas or abuse). I would suspect that for the severely obese (not the somewhat overweight who are just eating a bit much and lead a sedentary lifestyle) this would play a very significant role.

So, in a sense, they are ill. Just as a person with a different addiction to alcohol or drugs. For a compulsive overeater it is also impossible to do what other addicts can do: stay away from the drug completely. You can avoid alcohol. You can not avoid eating. That makes overeating a very hard to treat addiction, because you must address the underlying causes.

 

Actually, I believe much of the current research contradicts this.

A lot of current research suggests that the weight and overeating is driven by sick metabolism. Often these metabolic issues came from damage by rekying on carbs as the foundation of diet.

 

I have no problem with being comfortable with mental ilnness, so it is not about that for me. It's the demonization and assumption that I am disputing.

 

Op? I am pretty smart and obese.

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Thanks for the helpful responses.

 

I think we speak different languages here, though. I generally speak a different language than most people.

 

I think that I miss, conceptually, some fine points between "coercion" and "self-control". I have been wrestling with this for years. In a nutshell, I tend to think that if there is no outside coercion involved, and no factor of ignorance (not knowing what things are like, what leads to what, etc.), everything is essentially a question of "self-control", because on a very basic level, it boils down to the subject's choice of the course of action.

Most people that I know consider this to be a simplistic concept which misses the psychological gradation of things, so people tell me that I call "choices" also things which most other people would call consider choices only on the most literal level, but would in reality recognize that there are external factors there which affect the person's capacity to fully "make" that choice. Here is where I clash with people, because I somehow do not digest that idea very well. So because of that, I may use the language which is rather impalpable for most people - I have become more aware of it in the past years, trying to adapt that, but I keep stumbling upon difficulties of elaborating my thoughts in what is not my conceptual framework. I would be open-minded to make it my conceptual framework if I were convinced things were so, but so far, I am still stuck.

 

I am not selective in applying that way of thinking. I am not being judgmental by asking, "So, OK, you know this is wrong, nobody is 'making' you do it and you still do it?" - I apply that to everyone, included myself, for almost all issues that can arise. It is my general framework and I cannot seem to let go of it in favor of an idea that there is a psychological gradation there, that not all choices are "equal". That is also why I do not understand psychology, in spite of having read pretty much the equivalent of a degree over the years on various topics, because my conceptual rigidity appears not to allow for some fine distinctions.

 

What I am looking for, and really open-mindedly looking for, and sad that I cannot seem to express myself in ways that would both be representative of how I actually think within my framework and palpable for others, are resources which help me understand that gradation that I cannot seem to grasp. I am lacking in this camp. I would like somebody to spell out for me, like to somebody who genuinely has difficulties processing those ideas, the inner mechanism of weight problems, of addiction that might be a part of the picture, and what motivates what, psychologically. I have not found such resources, not even when in hindsight I attempted to understand my own past issues. I have never found what would be to me a "psychologically authentic" description of what I was going through, and I have NO language of explaining it. Likewise, I cannot understand this situation, or a myriad of other situations - in which things are apparently more complex than "simply making bad choices", but in ways that I cannot fully understand.

 

I was really hoping I would be able to go through this discussion without explicating all of the above, because I hate that conceptual mismatch which makes it difficult for me to talk to other people on some topics. I am really not trying to be obnoxious. I am not asking rhetorical questions. I am not trying to offend people. I am trying to wrestle with some nuances of human inner functioning which, even if they are applicable to me too, have never been explained to me in a language I can understand. If any of this makes sense. That is why I need resources, and descriptions, and being pinpointed what are those additional factors and what causes what, precisely, if I want to understand something, and this is something I would like to understand. The physiology part I can understand to an extent if I catch DH in a mood to explain it to me. I am interested in the psychology part, in the inner reality of that experience, because this is where things often genuinely do not make sense to me.

 

Now I am sad and frustrated because I have obviously managed to create an upheaval about a topic, so instead of helping myself understand something, it seems that I have only managed to vex another ten people. I am sorry. It was probably a bad idea. I did not imagine it this way.

 

I do truly appreciate, however, everyone's effort in sharing their stories, some of them very personal, and other resources which I will try to have a look at now.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: Please don't beat yourself up Ester Maria. I can feel your frustration through your words about trying to be understood and yet being misunderstood anyway. :grouphug::grouphug: I think part of the problem here is that there is no way (at least in my mind) of boiling it down to "this causes this and as a result it produces that" because the causal agent can be different for each person. Pull 10 different obese people off the street and find out the source of their problem and it will probably be a different cause for each person. I think that is the reason it is so difficult to analyze as it is such a complex issue with many different factors. Many have been listed here already, but for everyone listed, there are probably just as many if not more that have not been listed. I know I cannot answer your question, I can only give you an opinion on some of the causes which at the end of the day I don't think really is what you want to know. :grouphug::grouphug:

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I don't buy the "seriously addicted to food" thing. We are all addicted to food, as we will die without it. Sometimes we just have created bad habits, enlarging our stomachs along the way, as we get used to larger and larger portions. Then, you have an illness or an operation or something, and lo and behold, you can't eat that mountain of mashed potatoes you ate before. It's too much because your stomach has been allowed to return to normal proportions.

 

If we just wouldn't rinse and repeat....

 

Addiction is not clinically defined by "having to do it to live".

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I asked DH (who is a biochemist) about this case, he says that absent underlying medical issues, that degree of obesity must be a product of a very serious lack of balance, and in this case - with the person having the knowledge, the circumstances (they live in an area with a lot more natural and whole foods) and, finally, the money to change if some of it involves greater expenses - intentionally bad lifestyle, knowing what one is doing to oneself. And this is exactly what seems to be going on, from the outside. Now, the question is why would they be in that place if they do not have any other issues (and other people swear they do not)?

 

I asked him if about the addiction mechanism, biochemically, esp. as regards sugar, but he agrees that in this particular case, with the person being so outstandingly collected in many other situations, and having the degree of self-awareness and introspection that they do, it is highly unlikely that they are "coerced" into this behavior even considering the food addiction factor. He assumes it is self-destruction.

 

Yet, they are too old for anyone to tell them anything or help them in any way. DH could probably do it in a heartbeat and arrange something for them, but the degree of connection is such that is truly not our "place" to say or do anything. It just puzzles me so much. The person does not behave, and does not have a "background", of any other person with an eating disorder that I know. It seems to me that there is something genuinely "psychologically weird" about their situation, but I am having a hard time putting my finger on it. I know that appearances can be misleading, though, but it seems like such an unlikely problem for them that it really interests me what might be behind it.

 

Could it be that they are so put together in every other way that food is their release? I've known people like that.

 

Also, can you be sure there is no medical issue? I gained 50 pounds in 6 months when I was 18 or 19. It would have been a long time before I was ever diagnosed with PCOS if my mom didn't also have it. I was familiar with it and so I knew I needed to see a doctor. There is also metabolic syndrome. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_syndrome#IDF If they haven't seen an endocrinologist about their issues, they really can't know if there is a medical issue.

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I think pretty much every alcoholic is fully aware that drinking is bad for him. Many alcoholics have tried to quit, repeatedly, unsuccessfully. They DO know what they are doing to themselves, but they can not stop.

A person addicted to food may know exactly what she is doing to herself, but finds herself unable to stop.

Yes, the behavior is self-destructive. As is alcoholism. but the short term gains in terms of feeling better seem to outweigh anything reason tells about the long term detriment.

 

Whether the person has other issues, you can.not.know. Whatever dysfunction they experienced in their family growing up, you have no idea, because family dysfunction is often a well-guarded secret. The person herself may not know WHY she feels this way. Some women undergo long term therapy to figure out why they have these problems (just as women who, for instance, stay with abusive husbands because they are addicted to the dysfunction; very often children of alcoholics)

 

Alcoholics drink because their bodies crave alcohol in ways non alcoholics don't. It is physiological. Recovery includes psychology, but the function of that addiction starts with the body, not mind.

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Thanks for the helpful responses.

 

I think we speak different languages here, though. I generally speak a different language than most people.

 

I think that I miss, conceptually, some fine points between "coercion" and "self-control". I have been wrestling with this for years. In a nutshell, I tend to think that if there is no outside coercion involved, and no factor of ignorance (not knowing what things are like, what leads to what, etc.), everything is essentially a question of "self-control", because on a very basic level, it boils down to the subject's choice of the course of action.

Most people that I know consider this to be a simplistic concept which misses the psychological gradation of things, so people tell me that I call "choices" also things which most other people would call consider choices only on the most literal level, but would in reality recognize that there are external factors there which affect the person's capacity to fully "make" that choice. Here is where I clash with people, because I somehow do not digest that idea very well. So because of that, I may use the language which is rather impalpable for most people - I have become more aware of it in the past years, trying to adapt that, but I keep stumbling upon difficulties of elaborating my thoughts in what is not my conceptual framework. I would be open-minded to make it my conceptual framework if I were convinced things were so, but so far, I am still stuck.

 

I am not selective in applying that way of thinking. I am not being judgmental by asking, "So, OK, you know this is wrong, nobody is 'making' you do it and you still do it?" - I apply that to everyone, included myself, for almost all issues that can arise. It is my general framework and I cannot seem to let go of it in favor of an idea that there is a psychological gradation there, that not all choices are "equal". That is also why I do not understand psychology, in spite of having read pretty much the equivalent of a degree over the years on various topics, because my conceptual rigidity appears not to allow for some fine distinctions.

 

What I am looking for, and really open-mindedly looking for, and sad that I cannot seem to express myself in ways that would both be representative of how I actually think within my framework and palpable for others, are resources which help me understand that gradation that I cannot seem to grasp. I am lacking in this camp. I would like somebody to spell out for me, like to somebody who genuinely has difficulties processing those ideas, the inner mechanism of weight problems, of addiction that might be a part of the picture, and what motivates what, psychologically. I have not found such resources, not even when in hindsight I attempted to understand my own past issues. I have never found what would be to me a "psychologically authentic" description of what I was going through, and I have NO language of explaining it. Likewise, I cannot understand this situation, or a myriad of other situations - in which things are apparently more complex than "simply making bad choices", but in ways that I cannot fully understand.

 

I was really hoping I would be able to go through this discussion without explicating all of the above, because I hate that conceptual mismatch which makes it difficult for me to talk to other people on some topics. I am really not trying to be obnoxious. I am not asking rhetorical questions. I am not trying to offend people. I am trying to wrestle with some nuances of human inner functioning which, even if they are applicable to me too, have never been explained to me in a language I can understand. If any of this makes sense. That is why I need resources, and descriptions, and being pinpointed what are those additional factors and what causes what, precisely, if I want to understand something, and this is something I would like to understand. The physiology part I can understand to an extent if I catch DH in a mood to explain it to me. I am interested in the psychology part, in the inner reality of that experience, because this is where things often genuinely do not make sense to me.

 

Now I am sad and frustrated because I have obviously managed to create an upheaval about a topic, so instead of helping myself understand something, it seems that I have only managed to vex another ten people. I am sorry. It was probably a bad idea. I did not imagine it this way.

 

I do truly appreciate, however, everyone's effort in sharing their stories, some of them very personal, and other resources which I will try to have a look at now.

 

Hmmm...first, I am sorry this made you feel bad. I think, like you said, and with most discussions here that go off the cliff, people are talking past each other and really don't have enough similarities and aren't seeing facial expressions and feeding back and forth to really understand.

 

I don't know if this makes it any more understandable but for me it seems like a difference between living in your head and living in your heart. You, EM, are amazing and smart and helpful but it appears to me that you live in your head, logically, thoughtfully and "in control". I don't know you, so maybe in your personal life you are passionate and romantic and emotional and open hearted and wild and out of control and such ;) I think that psychology lives in a persons heart or feelings.

 

So, sigh, let me add more personal to this. My childhood was not perfect and in an attempt to feel worthwhile and in control I became anorexic. Not just a desire to be thin, but a distorted body image. At 5' 7" I weighed 110 pounds and hated the way I looked and felt fat. It was a way to live in my head and be in control and think things through instead of feeling the discomfort around me. The problem was cured for me when I went to visit my grandparents for the summer, as I usually did with my siblings. My grandmother loved me and I felt like I was her favorite and I was able to "feel" her love and let go of the need to push the emotions away. I have spent the rest of my life actively avoiding that need for control and the living in my head exclusively stuff. Of course that makes my life a little sloppy at times because I go with what I feel at the moment :glare: When things are difficult I sometimes still resort to food to move back to my head from the pain in my heart, but in the other direction now, :lol: That, of course is just part of the problem.

 

It has become a physical problem as well because I have managed to throw my body out of whack through dieting, and messing up hormones and such by eating more than I "need" at the moment and by feeding an already pre-programmed to hold onto fat body type. Fortunately I am still healthy. It will do me in eventually and I appreciate your concern for your friends ultimate health issues, so I am trying to fix it once and for all before it is too late. I would add though, that you can be overweight without it being fatal. A lot depends on what and when and how you eat, your genetics, your lifestyle and many more things.

 

So, I think I have wandered around the point but what I want to say is that the disconnect may be that you live, successfully, in your head. Others live in their heart or try to avoid living in their heart by making it about something besides their feelings - the food, or the obsession, or the numbers. Psychology isn't mathematics or even a science, though I think they would like to think they are scientists that have concrete answers - here is your problem, do this. People are too complex and the problems are too emotional for scientific answers.

 

edited to absolutely, unequivocally add that I in no way, at all, think either is better, by the way - head, heart, some combination of the two, whatever works for you.

Edited by jcooperetc
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Addiction is not clinically defined by "having to do it to live".

 

I am not a psychologist, but I play one in my family :001_smile:

 

This concept of food addiction fascinates me. I think, in my experience, we can train our brains to "need" that rush of feel good hormones that food provides, just like the rush any other addict gets. A compulsive gambler can obviously live without the gambling but his brain "needs" or has developed the feedback pathways to "need" the rush to cope. Is that a physical addiction? Well, not I guess if you define addiction as dying if you don't have it. I think food can work the same way, as an escape and a rush that you become habituated to.

 

OK, the quack doctor is leaving the office now. :lol:

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I am not a psychologist, but I play one in my family :001_smile:

 

This concept of food addiction fascinates me. I think, in my experience, we can train our brains to "need" that rush of feel good hormones that food provides, just like the rush any other addict gets. A compulsive gambler can obviously live without the gambling but his brain "needs" or has developed the feedback pathways to "need" the rush to cope. Is that a physical addiction? Well, not I guess if you define addiction as dying if you don't have it. I think food can work the same way, as an escape and a rush that you become habituated to.

 

OK, the quack doctor is leaving the office now. :lol:

 

It's the compulsive behavior surrounding how and what you eat, not always a "rush" when you eat.

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Guest submarines
Thanks for the helpful responses.

 

I think we speak different languages here, though. I generally speak a different language than most people.

 

I think that I miss, conceptually, some fine points between "coercion" and "self-control". I have been wrestling with this for years. In a nutshell, I tend to think that if there is no outside coercion involved, and no factor of ignorance (not knowing what things are like, what leads to what, etc.), everything is essentially a question of "self-control", because on a very basic level, it boils down to the subject's choice of the course of action.

Most people that I know consider this to be a simplistic concept which misses the psychological gradation of things, so people tell me that I call "choices" also things which most other people would call consider choices only on the most literal level, but would in reality recognize that there are external factors there which affect the person's capacity to fully "make" that choice. Here is where I clash with people, because I somehow do not digest that idea very well. So because of that, I may use the language which is rather impalpable for most people - I have become more aware of it in the past years, trying to adapt that, but I keep stumbling upon difficulties of elaborating my thoughts in what is not my conceptual framework. I would be open-minded to make it my conceptual framework if I were convinced things were so, but so far, I am still stuck.

 

I am not selective in applying that way of thinking. I am not being judgmental by asking, "So, OK, you know this is wrong, nobody is 'making' you do it and you still do it?" - I apply that to everyone, included myself, for almost all issues that can arise. It is my general framework and I cannot seem to let go of it in favor of an idea that there is a psychological gradation there, that not all choices are "equal". That is also why I do not understand psychology, in spite of having read pretty much the equivalent of a degree over the years on various topics, because my conceptual rigidity appears not to allow for some fine distinctions.

 

What I am looking for, and really open-mindedly looking for, and sad that I cannot seem to express myself in ways that would both be representative of how I actually think within my framework and palpable for others, are resources which help me understand that gradation that I cannot seem to grasp. I am lacking in this camp. I would like somebody to spell out for me, like to somebody who genuinely has difficulties processing those ideas, the inner mechanism of weight problems, of addiction that might be a part of the picture, and what motivates what, psychologically. I have not found such resources, not even when in hindsight I attempted to understand my own past issues. I have never found what would be to me a "psychologically authentic" description of what I was going through, and I have NO language of explaining it. Likewise, I cannot understand this situation, or a myriad of other situations - in which things are apparently more complex than "simply making bad choices", but in ways that I cannot fully understand.

 

I was really hoping I would be able to go through this discussion without explicating all of the above, because I hate that conceptual mismatch which makes it difficult for me to talk to other people on some topics. I am really not trying to be obnoxious. I am not asking rhetorical questions. I am not trying to offend people. I am trying to wrestle with some nuances of human inner functioning which, even if they are applicable to me too, have never been explained to me in a language I can understand. If any of this makes sense. That is why I need resources, and descriptions, and being pinpointed what are those additional factors and what causes what, precisely, if I want to understand something, and this is something I would like to understand. The physiology part I can understand to an extent if I catch DH in a mood to explain it to me. I am interested in the psychology part, in the inner reality of that experience, because this is where things often genuinely do not make sense to me.

 

Now I am sad and frustrated because I have obviously managed to create an upheaval about a topic, so instead of helping myself understand something, it seems that I have only managed to vex another ten people. I am sorry. It was probably a bad idea. I did not imagine it this way.

 

I do truly appreciate, however, everyone's effort in sharing their stories, some of them very personal, and other resources which I will try to have a look at now.

 

:grouphug: This is pretty much how DH thinks and processes information about inner life. It is truly a different language, and it is very difficult for us to understand each other. I'm intuitively aware of the myriad of inner reasons and connections that lead me and others to certain choices. He doesn't experience this, and hence he can't understand that this complex inner world exists. I believe it is something about differently developed metacognition and emotional intelligence.

 

I've spent years trying to help him understand. At times he seemingly does, but these moments are fleeting. Honestly, I gave up. I don't think it is possible. If you figure it out, let me know. :001_smile:

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I can only speak for my self, as a 5'3 size 16 woman. I am lazy. I am spoiled. I do not like to tell myself "no." I have never had to really work for anything in my life so I don't have a drive that I see a lot of other people have. I know how I should eat. I feed my family well balanced meals. They are all at a healthy weight. My girls will snack on carrots, celery and some ranch. I have never ate a raw veggie in my life, but I will sit and eat way to many chips at one time. I was the youngest child and I got babied a lot. My husband still babies me. So I am just used to the ... I want what I want and I want it now. As I am getting a little older I am slowly trying to gain some self control and not be so impulsive with everything including food.

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I think that I miss, conceptually, some fine points between "coercion" and "self-control". I have been wrestling with this for years. In a nutshell, I tend to think that if there is no outside coercion involved, and no factor of ignorance (not knowing what things are like, what leads to what, etc.), everything is essentially a question of "self-control", because on a very basic level, it boils down to the subject's choice of the course of action.

Most people that I know consider this to be a simplistic concept which misses the psychological gradation of things, so people tell me that I call "choices" also things which most other people would call consider choices only on the most literal level, but would in reality recognize that there are external factors there which affect the person's capacity to fully "make" that choice. Here is where I clash with people, because I somehow do not digest that idea very well. So because of that, I may use the language which is rather impalpable for most people - I have become more aware of it in the past years, trying to adapt that, but I keep stumbling upon difficulties of elaborating my thoughts in what is not my conceptual framework. I would be open-minded to make it my conceptual framework if I were convinced things were so, but so far, I am still stuck.

 

 

Yes, you are being too simplistic. If you look at how something like obesity starts, it might start with a series of simple decisions but often those decisions are subtle ones that have to do more with priority than anything else. If a young person is just starting out on their own, perhaps busy in school or a new job, their studies or job can overshadow healthy decisions.

 

Then once that person wakes up to the problem, there are already internal factors at play. Sometimes those factors are physiological in nature. And some of those factors may very well be ignorance even in a very intelligent person. Losing weight is not simple and some of the opinions stated even in this thread have been overly simplistic. As I stated somewhere else in the thread, tackling weight issues in an overly simplistic way (just by dieting, for example) can at times make the problem even worse.

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Then once that person wakes up to the problem, there are already internal factors at play. Sometimes those factors are physiological in nature. And some of those factors may very well be ignorance even in a very intelligent person. Losing weight is not simple and some of the opinions stated even in this thread have been overly simplistic. As I stated somewhere else in the thread, tackling weight issues in an overly simplistic way (just by dieting, for example) can at times make the problem even worse.

 

Now my question would be: why does it take so much time for some to "wake up" to a problem? I completely understand that it is hard to lose weight if one is 100lbs overweight. But why do people wait this long? Why are people content buying larger and larger clothes -why do the *accept* this?

I know that when my jeans get tight I will.not.buy.new.pants. Period. I will not give in, but will do what is needed to fit into them comfortably. I simply would not consider it an option for *myself* to become overweight.

So, how does it all start? Before changed body composition makes it much much harder to lose?

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For me, after beating myself up for YEARS about failing at EVERY diet I've ever tried, I was thrilled to discover the link between ADHD and obesity. One study showed that ADHD affects about 3% of the general population, but 20-60% of the obese population. WIDE range, but even the jump from 3 to 20 percent is quite large.

 

After reading some of the research, I realized that ultimately, the decisions are mine, but the ADHD certainly doesn't help at all. Sticking to diets, poor decision making, impulse control. Yeah. That's me. :tongue_smilie:

 

I do not enjoy being obese. I do not enjoy having to pay much higher prices for clothes, if I can even find decent looking ones. Wondering if the seats will be too small, wishing I could do more stuff with the girls. I don't enjoy it, but that d@#n ADHD does NOT make it easy. Makes it impossible for me.

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I was overweight in my early 20s. Despite all I did. I went to doctors who just said to eat healthier and exercise more. It wasn't until I was 28 that a fertility specialist explained to me that my weight was connected to my hormone issues, which had been ignored by other professionals. If someone had come to me in my 20s, when I was exercising and eating healthier than I am now, concerned abomut my weight and just assumming it was because I was making poor decisions, I would have been very offended.

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As a formerly obese woman, I would suggest looking into the physiology of obesity rather than the psychology of obesity.

 

I have finally gained control of myself, by changing what I eat. All these years, I was trying to eat low fat, whole grain, blah blah blah. I would exercise extensively and feel like I was constantly starving, and just barely keep my weight under control... until I couldn't handle it any more. The "authorities" say that obese people are just lazy and have no self-control. That is not good for one's self-esteem. Especially when NO ONE could have the self control to feel like they were starving, as I did.

 

I watched the movie "Fat Head" on Netflix about 9 months ago, at a recommendation from someone on this board. This movie inspired me to do more research, and completely change the way I think about food. Now I eat virtually no carbs, and I eat a LOT of fat. (My blood tests show much better cholesterol levels now than 9 months ago, btw.)

 

Now I feel like a normal person. Not because I'm a more normal weight, but because I am not starving all the time. When I'm hungry, I feel hunger like a normal person must feel, not the overwhelming NEED to eat like I have felt for the last 10 years. It's obvious to me that I've had a change in physiology, not a change in psychology.

 

I'm not sure how you could help your friend. When you are obese, it really gets annoying to have people look at you like you have no self control, and to have people suggest "miracle" diets. I think the movie Fathead worked for me because it starts out as a counter-argument to Super Size Me, and it's amusing.

 

No real input into the conversation because I think the "whys" and "how comes" vary so much that it's just impossible to pinpoint.

 

But PiCO, I thought what you said was interesting for me. I've been overweight and/or obese my whole adult life and I've spent years on and off Weight Watchers always on a low fat diet. I'd weigh and measure everything and I'd eat low fat this, and fat free that, and count "points" and obsess over every little thing I put in my mouth, and lose some weight, and consider myself to be "on a diet," and eventually get sick of said "diet" and lose my motivation and start to backslide and slip up, and eventually gain my weight back- all of it plus some because I'd find it so ridiculously hard to get motivated to get back on track, even knowing what I was doing to myself (and I'd get depressed that I was doing it, and that would make everything worse).

 

And eventually, I'd start the cycle over again.

 

I never watched the movie you mentioned but a few months ago I talked to my doctor instead of going back to Weight Watchers yet again and I found out my insulin levels were high. And that my body really couldn't handle carbs and the sugars in them, and that eating them would just make me crave more of them, and they'd cause me to gain weight, and I would be better off doing something like a South Beach type diet instead of Weight Watchers.

 

And now, it's so different. I don't weigh or measure or "count" my food at all. I don't obsess over every bite I put in my mouth. I'm not starving all the time. So it doesn't even feel like I'm on a "diet" per se- it feels more like a lifestyle change. Basically like you said I eat virtually no carbs. Hardly ever. If I do, they're really healthy ones, but I mostly cut them out. I might have a sweet potato sometimes, some squash. Very rarely I'll have a little brown rice or some sort of wheat bread, but mostly I've learned to live without that stuff.

 

When I have my meats and poultry and seafood and stuff, I'm not worrying about how much it weighs and measures and if I have enough "points" for it. I no longer go, "oh no I can't have real butter or mayo or fat." And as of this morning I was down 33.8 lbs. And I can envision continuing to lose weight and then really continuing some sort of maintenance/lifestyle phase with this and not just seeing it as a temporary "diet" the way I always did with WW or low-fat/fat free eating!

 

So I hope that for me it is mostly physiology, too, and that one day I too can call myself "formerly" obese/overweight.

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Now my question would be: why does it take so much time for some to "wake up" to a problem? I completely understand that it is hard to lose weight if one is 100lbs overweight. But why do people wait this long? Why are people content buying larger and larger clothes -why do the *accept* this?

I know that when my jeans get tight I will.not.buy.new.pants. Period. I will not give in, but will do what is needed to fit into them comfortably. I simply would not consider it an option for *myself* to become overweight.

So, how does it all start? Before changed body composition makes it much much harder to lose?

 

Many people's body composition changes as they get older, starting the process in people who were normal weight to begin with. Much of the weight loss advice out there even on diet sites do not apply to everyone, especially if your body composition has changed due to a hormonal problem. Not only that, even weight loss experts can disagree with each other, making it even more confusing. I doubt that most people are content buying larger and larger clothes. Many people try to lose those first few pounds, and often do, but gain it back and then more, try to lose those pounds and the cycle continues.

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Well the OP describes me perfectly. And I, like PiCO have only recently discovered that eating the way I was always told was healthy does NOT work for me. In November last year I drastically dropped my carbohydrate level and increased my protein and fat. Voila, cholesterol dropped, blood pressure down, blood sugars normalised... and weight is falling off. If someone had told me I could do this when I was 20 things could have been very different.

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Now my question would be: why does it take so much time for some to "wake up" to a problem? I completely understand that it is hard to lose weight if one is 100lbs overweight. But why do people wait this long? Why are people content buying larger and larger clothes -why do the *accept* this?

I know that when my jeans get tight I will.not.buy.new.pants. Period. I will not give in, but will do what is needed to fit into them comfortably. I simply would not consider it an option for *myself* to become overweight.

So, how does it all start? Before changed body composition makes it much much harder to lose?

 

Dude. I am so glad you have the strength and fortitude.

 

//snark

 

I have an amazing level of perseverance, willpower, and desire. You don't have to get it or believe me when I tell you eat less, move more is a fail. It's enough that I know it.

 

It's not in my mind. If it were, I would be a size 6.

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I have an amazing level of perseverance, willpower, and desire. You don't have to get it or believe me when I tell you eat less, move more is a fail.

 

Why is it a fail???

How come every serious mountaineer loses weight on a strenuous treck because he can't carry enough food to replace the thousands of calories used up by exercise? I do not know a single person who does not lose when put under conditions of *sustained* strenuous physical activity in the absence of enough food. I don't know any obese long distance hikers or mountaineers.

Even my overweight-in-sedentary-condition-friend loses- if the discrepancy between energy use due to physical activity and energy input from food is just large enough. It's just that humans are designed for far more physical activity than even avid gym goers achieve.

I completely agree that losing weight is hard.

But to tell me that no amount of physical activity is leading to weight loss simply is not true. Two+ weeks with only the food you can carry will make anybody lose.

Edited by regentrude
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Very few regular people climb mountains, though.

 

Within the circles that I run in (triathletes, marathoners, etc.) most talk about how they NEVER lose weight while in training for a race because while their demands for calories are ramping up, so is their appetite.

 

OP is looking at this like a machine. Her friend is not a machine. She is a person with thoughts, feelings, failures, successes, secrets and skeletons in her closet (perhaps).

 

Some people on here say that they would simply never allow themselves to gain that much weight. Good for you. You just may stumble in some OTHER area of your life, though and there may be someone waiting in the wings of YOUR little stage show to tsk tsk and say, "Why, I would NEVAH!!!" :glare:

 

I've been on both sides of this. I've been fat and I've been thin. Believe me, life as thin is SO much better! Fat people get the derision of complete strangers on a daily basis.

 

OP, I understand that you didn't mean offense. I get that. I have known you on here for years and have never known you to intentionally offend. However, your wording IS cringe-worthy. You cannot solve this. You and your dh are looking at this analytically. Your friend is not a science project. It doesn't make sense. It just IS. :grouphug:

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So I hope that for me it is mostly physiology, too, and that one day I too can call myself "formerly" obese/overweight.

 

South Beach worked brilliantly for me in the short-term. Long term, I started to feel like I was starving again (after about 3 months, after I added "good" carbs back in.) So watch out for that.

 

Also, I now think South Beach was too low-fat for me to maintain long term. So think about that if it starts being too hard to stay on the program.

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Why is it a fail???

How come every serious mountaineer loses weight on a strenuous treck because he can't carry enough food to replace the thousands of calories used up by exercise? I do not know a single person who does not lose when put under conditions of *sustained* strenuous physical activity in the absence of enough food. I don't know any obese long distance hikers or mountaineers.

Even my overweight-in-sedentary-condition-friend loses- if the discrepancy between energy use due to physical activity and energy input from food is just large enough. It's just that humans are designed for far more physical activity than even avid gym goers achieve.

I completely agree that losing weight is hard.

But to tell me that no amount of physical activity is leading to weight loss simply is not true. Two+ weeks with only the food you can carry will make anybody lose.

 

It is a fail because it doesn't work. The assumption that I overeat/don't move/have psychological issues behind my weight is erroneous.

 

I got to my highest weight working 2 full time, active jobs and being a full time sstudent; simultaneously. I did NOT eat more than fit sized peers at the time.

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It is a fail because it doesn't work. The assumption that I overeat/don't move/have psychological issues behind my weight is erroneous.

 

I got to my highest weight working 2 full time, active jobs and being a full time sstudent; simultaneously. I did NOT eat more than fit sized peers at the time.

 

 

Makes sense. I'm sure you have read about the relationship between cortisol release during times of stress and accumulation and our bodies unwillingness to let go of belly fat?

 

I'm really sorry about the writing. Does the acquisition of another language make your primary language worse for awhile? (time to start a new thread)

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Interesting thread. It took a while to read the whole thing, but it was certainly worth the read. :)

 

I spent the first 30ish years thin and hot. :tongue_smilie: Now I am NOT. :lol:

 

Mentally, I am healthier now than I was when I was thin. I was an emotional mess for most of my hot/thin years. :001_huh: Now I am secure, self-confident (for the most part...)

 

I do want to lose weight. I do NOT enjoy being overweight at all. But like a PP mentioned, I am utterly spoiled. I wasn't always. But I married a man who spoils the heck out of me. I have gotten soft. And I need to get my poop in a group and fix this within the next year! I do NOT intend to turn 40 next year like this. (Let's hope I have the mental fortitude to do it. :tongue_smilie: )

 

EM, I enjoy your posts so much, even when I disagree with you. I think you are clearly wise and intelligent and have great perspectives. But I must confess, I have cringed at some of what you have posted here, including the OP. But I feel like, having read so many of your other posts, your intent was never to be belittling or condescending. :grouphug: (Intent matters to me when things posted come across unkind or whatever.)

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Also- I should say that while making healthy choices regarding food and exercise is a big priority for me, it isn't my only priority. I am not on the "Biggest Loser" ranch with a personal trainer and hours to exercise. I do shop for healthy food, cook and eat a whole foods diet, and make time to exercise every day. But I also have to have time to school my kids, clean the house and take care of other responsibilities in my life. Yes, it is a choice for me to not make it my very top priority.

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For as long as I can remember, I have always had food on the mind. Every single day I think about what food I will eat and when I get to eat it and after I eat I think about when I'll get to eat again. When I visit a friend's home, I think about whether they'll have something to eat. When I plan an outing with my family, one of my primary concerns is when and how and what we will eat. I remember thinking this way as a child and I still feel this way as a grown adult and mother.

 

While growing up, I had a decent metabolism and was never overweight, but I did not learn good eating habits. We rarely ate out and only ate desserts on special occasions or holidays, but we ate a lot of processed junk like rice-a-roni and hamburger helper and only canned veggies like corn and peas. We had a large family and not a large budget, so there weren't a lot of opportunities to overeat. But, as soon as I was old enough to work and earn my own money, I began eating fast food and indulging all my food impulses. However, I was a lettered athlete in high school, so my bad habits did not affect my weight. Then I went to college and had to focus more on academics and earning money to live on instead of staying physically active and I gained the "freshman 15." Since then, I have slowly but steadily gained weight throughout my adult life. I was reasonably active in my 20's but not much at all in my 30's, especially since I have been the mother of small children and pregnant and/or nursing for the last 10 years. I KNOW that my personal health should be a higher priority, but it honestly is just not that high up on my personal priorities and I have not made the required effort to make the major lifestyle changes it would take. I will say that I envy those who are not so driven by food. My husband often forgets to eat or doesn't take eating into consideration into his plans for a day.

 

One of my sons is exactly like me. He thinks about and talks about food constantly. He is strongly drawn to junk food and would eat as much of it as we'd let him. Even as a toddler, he would wolf down his food and look around for more. He is the only one of my children who would sneak food from the pantry and was extremely tempted by any sweets we might have in the home. A few times I would see those awful talk shows with the morbidly obese preschoolers and the parents saying "There's nothing I can do!" and I'd think that my son could be just like them if he was given free reign and a junk food diet. Fortunately, we decided early on to feed our children healthful, whole foods for the most part, with only occasional treats. My son is seven now and at a very healthy weight and willingly eats lots of fresh fruits and veggies and other healthy foods. He still talks about food a lot and will go overboard when given the chance, but I am pleased with how he's doing so far. My hope is that if he is raised to eat healthy foods and enjoy them, then he won't lose his way as an adult as I did.

 

I think there are a lot of other factors that play in to body size and attitudes toward health and food and obesity. But I honestly believe that for some people, there are genetic components that make them more susceptible to obesity than others. Others are culturally predisposed, some are affected by trauma of some sort, and still others deal with physiological factors that affect their weight. I suspect that for many obese folks, it is a combination of various factors, which makes it difficult to "fix."

 

I know that for me, emotional eating is an issue, and feeling depressed about my weight or judged by others for my weight is completely unhelpful and counterproductive. I also have been breastfeeding for nearly a decade and while some women lose weight while breastfeeding, I maintain a steady weight. If I eat well along with my family, same weight. If I splurge on junk here and there, same weight. So there is very little incentive for me, emotionally speaking, to force myself into strictly healthful eating habits. Since I breastfeed for two years or so and have always been pregnant again within that time, there has been literally no time to lose weight.

 

I do realize that IF it were a high enough priority for me, I could do it. I could wean my children sooner or quit getting pregnant again. :D I could put my children into public school and spend my days with a personal trainer. But those are not the priorities I have chosen for my life.

 

These are some of my reasons for being obese, despite being reasonably intelligent and in control of much of my life. I wish I wasn't overweight, but obviously not enough to make the difficult decisions to make it happen. I suspect that others have similarly complex reasons as well.

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Why is it a fail???

How come every serious mountaineer loses weight on a strenuous treck because he can't carry enough food to replace the thousands of calories used up by exercise? I do not know a single person who does not lose when put under conditions of *sustained* strenuous physical activity in the absence of enough food. I don't know any obese long distance hikers or mountaineers.

Even my overweight-in-sedentary-condition-friend loses- if the discrepancy between energy use due to physical activity and energy input from food is just large enough. It's just that humans are designed for far more physical activity than even avid gym goers achieve.

I completely agree that losing weight is hard.

But to tell me that no amount of physical activity is leading to weight loss simply is not true. Two+ weeks with only the food you can carry will make anybody lose.

 

On the physiology of obesity, the NYT recently published a fascinating article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

The amount of time and energy that people who have lost significant amounts of weight have to put into keeping it off is mind-boggling to me.

 

On the psychology of obesity, I found this book incredibly compelling. http://www.amazon.com/Passing-Thin-Losing-Weight-Finding/dp/B005ZOGIMU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328676385&sr=8-1

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Yet genetics & metabolism plays a great role. I have a 104 lb teen dd who eats *well*. She is a rail. A size 0, and often a child's 16 or 14 if the length works. If she were fat, it would be a moral issue. She eats far more than I did at her age, and I was never a rail. My father's mother was built like Marilyn Monroe, which was very desirable at the time. My mother had/still has, to an 'elderly' extent, the build of Audrey Hepburn. My mother can eat what she wishes but she never looks heavy, no matter, not ever. She came home from the hospital, having birthed her third child, weighing under 110 lbs, which was less than her weight at that conception. In the photos of their homecoming, she looks like Kate Moss holding a healthy newborn baby.

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On the physiology of obesity, the NYT recently published a fascinating article: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/01/magazine/tara-parker-pope-fat-trap.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

The amount of time and energy that people who have lost significant amounts of weight have to put into keeping it off is mind-boggling to me.

 

On the psychology of obesity, I found this book incredibly compelling. http://www.amazon.com/Passing-Thin-Losing-Weight-Finding/dp/B005ZOGIMU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328676385&sr=8-1

 

Excellent article. Thank you (even though it is a bit depressing. . . sigh.)

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Why is it a fail???

How come every serious mountaineer loses weight on a strenuous treck because he can't carry enough food to replace the thousands of calories used up by exercise? I do not know a single person who does not lose when put under conditions of *sustained* strenuous physical activity in the absence of enough food. I don't know any obese long distance hikers or mountaineers.

Even my overweight-in-sedentary-condition-friend loses- if the discrepancy between energy use due to physical activity and energy input from food is just large enough. It's just that humans are designed for far more physical activity than even avid gym goers achieve.

I completely agree that losing weight is hard.

But to tell me that no amount of physical activity is leading to weight loss simply is not true. Two+ weeks with only the food you can carry will make anybody lose.

 

ummmm, obvious, but the people you are talking about are not obese. They have a different metabolism. Point blank, their bodies work in the way you like to think all bodies work.

 

Yes, if a person starves themselves and exercises into oblivion, they will all lose weight. However, many people (myself included) gain weight when on lower calories diets and heavy exercise. I don't want to be obese. I prefer it to being starved.

 

I did try starving. When my hair started falling out and I was having difficulty doing routine tasks, I decided the skinny that I used to be really wasn't worth it. Obese, I am quite fit and healthy. Sounds strange, but true. I am one of those odd. fat women that you find hiking in the mountains.:D When I eat, I maintain my weight. When I diet, I gain. When I exercise heavily, I gain. When I exercise normally, I maintain. I don't think most people are like me. I do seem to be an anomaly. I do exist however.

 

Me, 5'6". Was 105 at 20. 115 at 25. 125 in early 30s. Mid thirties brought quickly increased weight. Now, mid 40s I am holding at...we'll just let the scales keep that secret. The truth, I do not think I would be this weight if I had not dieted because I thought I had gotten fat when I was in my 30s. Every single diet brought weight gain. By not dieting, I am maintaining.

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Why is it a fail???

How come every serious mountaineer loses weight on a strenuous treck because he can't carry enough food to replace the thousands of calories used up by exercise? I do not know a single person who does not lose when put under conditions of *sustained* strenuous physical activity in the absence of enough food. I don't know any obese long distance hikers or mountaineers.

Even my overweight-in-sedentary-condition-friend loses- if the discrepancy between energy use due to physical activity and energy input from food is just large enough. It's just that humans are designed for far more physical activity than even avid gym goers achieve.

I completely agree that losing weight is hard.

But to tell me that no amount of physical activity is leading to weight loss simply is not true. Two+ weeks with only the food you can carry will make anybody lose.

 

I think if you saw them a month or so after their trip they would be back to the same weight they started at before the mountaineering trip. Your body, from my understanding, strives to maintain equilibrium. Years ago it was called a set-point. If you are overweight that becomes your bodies new go to point. And, when you diet to lose weight, as opposed to extreme exercise, you also lose muscle in the process so when you arrive at your goal weight, you are less fit and it is much easier to regain the weight. That is why yo-yo dieting is sometimes considered more dangerous than staying at a slightly overweight size. You mess up your body in a big way. Your mountain climbers will return to their pre-climb weight, and will not have lost any muscle in the process, so no harm, no foul. They were also not under any stress, in fact were burning stress hormones, so no stress related fat storage. So, yes, most of the time an extreme difference between energy in and energy out will cause you to weigh less. That isn't really the solution to the problem though.

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As a formerly obese woman, I would suggest looking into the physiology of obesity rather than the psychology of obesity.

 

I have finally gained control of myself, by changing what I eat. All these years, I was trying to eat low fat, whole grain, blah blah blah. I would exercise extensively and feel like I was constantly starving, and just barely keep my weight under control... until I couldn't handle it any more. The "authorities" say that obese people are just lazy and have no self-control. That is not good for one's self-esteem. Especially when NO ONE could have the self control to feel like they were starving, as I did.

 

I watched the movie "Fat Head" on Netflix about 9 months ago, at a recommendation from someone on this board. This movie inspired me to do more research, and completely change the way I think about food. Now I eat virtually no carbs, and I eat a LOT of fat. (My blood tests show much better cholesterol levels now than 9 months ago, btw.)

 

Now I feel like a normal person. Not because I'm a more normal weight, but because I am not starving all the time. When I'm hungry, I feel hunger like a normal person must feel, not the overwhelming NEED to eat like I have felt for the last 10 years. It's obvious to me that I've had a change in physiology, not a change in psychology.

 

I'm not sure how you could help your friend. When you are obese, it really gets annoying to have people look at you like you have no self control, and to have people suggest "miracle" diets. I think the movie Fathead worked for me because it starts out as a counter-argument to Super Size Me, and it's amusing.

:hurray::hurray::hurray: FANTASTIC post!!!

 

When I eat low-carb (which I've been struggling with lately), I feel *sane*.

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