Reluctant writer...Help!

[funnygirl]

I've been homeschooling dd13 for a little over a month now. I've been approaching each subject very gently, and letting her guide the learning while I spend time assessing what she knows and what she needs. We've spent LOTS of time on math, history, and spelling, and almost NO time on writing. Each time I try to get her to do any kind of writing she balks. It's like she can't even get the pencil moving to start the assignment. And we're talking everything from simple outlining to simple short essay-type questions on a subject she likes...she's just stuck.

 

Last night we had a GREAT conversation about it. She describes not being able to hold the information long enough to get it onto the paper. She said it gets "erased". She also doesn't seem to have a good grasp of basic writing skills, like outlining from a source.

 

SO. What curriculum should I use to start remediation? I think at this point she needs to gain confidence, so I would be fine with easy-peasy, just to get the ball rolling. (We are using Linguisystems, but I think we need even more help than that.)

 

For the record, her reading, spelling, and vocabulary are high school level.

 

Thanks everyone!!

[almondbutterandjelly]

Maybe Winning with Writing? I started my 11 year old on level 1, and it's very gentle but very do-able.

 

I also really believe copywork can be very helpful. I like WWE 1 and 2 for that.

[MegP]

Meaningful Composition may be a good choice for her.

[PeterPan]

I'm so sorry, but I've already forgotten the labels your dd has or which you suspect. Can you remind us? What you're talking about is working memory, and you need to work on that separately FIRST. WWE is sheer torture when it's that bad (just our experience). I would do writing prompts just to get her WRITING, and do some very SHORT gentle dictation of something she likes. Make it a tag team effort and just give one word at a time. If she's cool with that, go up to two. Be gentle. That buys you some time to work on the EF stuff on the side.

 

Has she had the np eval? Sorry I can't remember, and you probably told us. If her handwriting isn't automatic, that's another thing that eats up working memory. They literally are then thinking about how to FORM the letters while also remembering what they're trying to write, how to spell it, etc. Too many things! So if that's going on, you work separately on getting the handwriting automatic. Dianne Craft has some 8's exercises you can try. Certainly gives my dd a run for her money. I don't know how you'd find "8's* in a board search, but it came up recently in other threads.

 

The other thing I'd do is get the EF workbooks from Linguisystems and use their section on paragraph and essay structure. The lower book has it. That made DRAMATIC changes in my dd. We're talking like she went from pulling teeth to do it and clueless and frustrated to "oh, you mean that's all I have to do? No problem, give me Scrivener and I'll write my paragraphs." I kid you not. Get the workbooks.

 

I like dictation, but WWE is torture, sigh. Don't make yourself feel tricked into doing something with her that's fine for NT 7 yo's and torture for SN 13 yo's, kwim? Find something she likes, work up slowly, see where you're at. Then in a while reproach WWE. What might she like? Hmmm, something from a teen magazine? Seriously, get something she LIKES.

[PeterPan]

BTW, she might like Wordsmith Apprentice if you just want her to do SOMETHING. Or, seriously Writing Tales 2 would be a nice level for her. It would integrate the grammar she's covering, is really close (ironically enough) to IEW in methodology, is creative (for the girl in her) and has a slow enough pace that she can probably get it done. It will stretch her but in a GOOD way. Love WT2.

 

As far as paragraphs, well I'd do the EF workbook thing then download Scrivener and just start writing little paragraphs any way you want. A paragraph a week. My dd did three paragraphs this week for her writing co-op class, and that was WOWSERS time consuming. Like 1-2 hours for each one.

 

BTW, how is her typing? I switched my dd over to Dvorak (which yes I keep talking about) and that plus Mavis Beacon has been a HUGE help her. She went from pecking on a regular layout (despite all our efforts over the years, grrr) to now typing 34 wpm on Dvorak. Isn't that awesome? I mean seriously, it just makes it SO much easier for them to get their thoughts out when they can type proficiently.

Edited February 8, 2012 by OhElizabeth

[rafiki]

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[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

Aw, don't be too hard on us on the dictation thing. :) I've done a LOT of dictation with my dd and I'll bet a lot of the other moms here have too. In fact I think I suggested it to her (start with one word, two words, etc., didn't I?). The only thing I've gotten really frustrated with lately is WWE. It just makes me sad to see how many people pick up WWE end up frustrated. It's like there's no explanation of the developmental process behind it or the whys or what to do when it's NOT clicking for your kid. So you have kids that are all frustrated and going through these torture sessions because the moms have no clue why or what to do to back up and get to where they need to be. And as you know, torture is never necessary. (Well almost never!) It's all just little steps, gently stretching.

[Pen]

 

SO. What curriculum should I use to start remediation? I think at this point she needs to gain confidence, so I would be fine with easy-peasy, just to get the ball rolling. (We are using Linguisystems, but I think we need even more help than that.)

!

 

1) Could someone explain to me what Linguisystems is?

 

2) Curriculum ideas:

 

For my son, the biggest single help has been IEW, specifically SWI-A, your daughter's age would put her at SWI-B, I think--plus TWSS for the parent teacher.

 

 

 

Killgallon sentence books, perhaps at elementary level might be helpful.

 

Ideas from Brave Writer--freewriting, might be helpful to loosen things up--or she might just stay with a stuck sense when faced with the idea of freewriting.

 

Possibly MCT, even--but I'm not sure how she would fit into that in terms of levels.

 

 

 

Non-curriculum ideas:

 

 

Doing things that involve writing but in a very different context from typical school writing. Goal: Taking away the stress, so if letter writing, or poetry, say, is stressful, that would not help, but if either were to be fun and freeing, it could. Writing games, such as you do a few words, she does one, you do a few, she does one...and try to make a story that way--don't worry if it is silly...in fact that could help. You can probably think up other such things that could be fun and make writing seem less daunting.

[peacefully]

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[Shellers]

Maybe Winning with Writing? I started my 11 year old on level 1, and it's very gentle but very do-able.

 

I also really believe copywork can be very helpful....

 

:iagree: In December, I started my 11 year old on level 1 of WWW. He didn't do very much writing in public school. He likes doing WWW, the lessons are short and easy to understand. Most days I have him do two lessons a day.

 

I also have my DS doing copywork. I figured he would dread it, but he doesn't seem to mind doing the work at all. His writing stamina has improved dramatically.

[PeterPan]

Hey Yllek, you've probably told us and I've forgotten. Is the Bravewriter Foundations in Writing thing a *class* you took? Like wasn't it something *you* took to learn how to work with him? Just checking. I borrowed the Bravewriter notebook thing from a friend to peruse, and it wasn't what we needed at the time.

[peacefully]

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[PeterPan]

That's interesting! Somehow I had missed or forgotten that it was taught by an SLP. Very interesting. Freed also talks about that idea of modeling. Well thanks for explaining! :)

[Tokyomarie]

Thank you for this information! It is very helpful. I love copywork & dictation. I learned about it years ago- ~15yrs or so ago. It was a tremendous help for my daughter in helping her to absorb the conventions of writing- capitalization, punctuation, spelling, grammar, etc- without having to worry about generating original sentences which tapped too hard into her language weaknesses. Once her use of the mechanics had become more fluent, and her use of oral language had become more fluent through therapy, we were able to work more on the creative expression aspect of writing.

 

I tried to use a similar approach with my son, but we got bogged down because he had additional problems with handwriting, orthography, and phonological memory that were not so problematic for my daughter. He needed much more careful scaffolding of dictation than any of the commercially available curriula provided. I tried to tweak them on my own but we were still constantly frustrated.

 

I looked at Brave Writer when it was first available, but in that stage of development, I don't think it would have been more helpful than what I already knew to do. This class with the SLP sounds just like what I needed about 10 years ago!

 

 

I wrote a mini-review about the class here.

 

The material is written for the parent. The parent assigns the child one copywork or dictation assignment each week for five weeks. In our case, ds would take about 10 minutes to write his assignment, and we would spend about 10 minutes discussing it. But in order to do his little assignment, I need to take about 30 minutes to read all of the material that Rita provides, 30 minutes to prep the lesson for ds, and 30 minutes to write up a report for the instructor (but I was a little overachiever about the whole thing; it probably wouldn't take anyone else nearly so long). So, yes, to answer your question, this class was mostly about teaching me to work with ds.

 

I also have The Writer's Jungle, and this class went into much more detail about the practices of copywork and dictation than TWJ. TWJ was written by Julie Bogart, a writer. TWJ had some things to say about copywork and dictation, but the bulk of the book is about the writing process. The instructor for the online class that I took was Rita, a speech and language pathologist, and she goes into issues like working memory, cognitive load theory, orthography, handwriting issues, dyslexia, etc. She gives dozens of examples of how to scaffold copywork and dictation in ways that support the writing process for struggling writers. Before this class, I simply didn't understand how copying someone else's writing might transfer writing skills to the student's own writing, but it's working well for us here. Ds started to apply certain writing convention lessons almost immediately after our copywriting/dictation assignments when I used Rita's methods. A lot of what I learned in the Foundations class dovetailed pretty nicely with the work that our SLP had us do in speech therapy. Some of what Rita had us do were simply good instructional strategies. This class probably isn't going to fit the bill for everyone, but it definitely provided plenty of explanation of the sort that WWE doesn't provide.

[funnygirl]

Can I just say how much I LOVE this hive???:001_wub:

 

How silly of me to neglect to post my dd's issues. Sweet Pea is currently diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, GAD, and severe ADHD. However, I am HIGHLY suspicious that she is on the autism spectrum, and am in the process of getting that evaluated. She also has moderate-severe hearing loss, but normal speech.

 

ETA: Handwriting is not a problem, although she is quite a perfectionist, so it's a time-staking process. We will be seeing OT as a part of our ASD evaluation, and I hope to get more insight on her handwriting there.

 

To take this a little further: she is a very creative writer, WHEN she can get it on paper/screen. For example, yesterday morning she woke up telling me about a dream she had in which she had written a new episode of Scooby Doo. We rushed into the computer for me to type it as she narrated. Later in the day she was able to take what I had typed (one long run-on sentence :)) and turn it into two paragraphs with very good mechanics, considering there were lots of quotations. ("...", said Velma.)

 

What she's not able to do is the copywork/dictation, so after reading all of your wisdom, I think that's where I need to start.

 

We also JUST received Mavis Beacon as a gift from my mom, so that will commence ASAP. (She's a decent typist already, so this ought to be a fun thing for her.)

 

Thanks again for your time and ideas!!

Edited February 8, 2012 by funnygirl

[rafiki]

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[funnygirl]

Wow. I've been searching all that I can about writing and found this thread started by our own OhEliz: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239259

 

I'm about halfway through the thread and I don't know if I feel better or worse. :confused: I'm glad that I'm not the only one who has ever felt semi-lost when it comes to teaching writing, but I'm seeing that there is SO MUCH that I don't know and so much research that I need to do to become a capable writing teacher.

 

Okay, back to reading the thread...

[PeterPan]

Wow, you're really doing some reading! And now to put that in context, just think that anything you identify with in that thread is a NORMAL feeling for someone in your position, with your kid. And then when you grab that, then consider that a whole bunch of respondees (either in that thread or privately) found that in fact there IS a curve to get where these kids need to be eventually that DOESN'T have to involve some impressive list of junior high (or high school) essays and research papers. And in fact it's very possible to get so bogged down in the output stuff that they aren't yet developmentally ready to do (keyword DEVELOPMENTALLY) that we would FORGET to get the learning happening!

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't write, but I'm saying a reality check with a longer progression than the board advice fancies is probably ok. Our kids needs something to say and the ability to say it, and sometimes that has to happen in its own way.

 

I've been reading "Late, Lost, and Unprepared" (which is me so much I'm horrified, lol), and they have this AMAZING chapter where they go through the NORMAL things a NT, unafflicted person would accomplish at each age. Blew my mind. So, um, get the book and get over any pressure you think you ought to be inflicting on yourself. You need to work on things, but not everybody is getting to the same place at the same time. And that's ok. I realized I didn't need to solve the theoretical problems of the whole world's dc, only my particular dc. And with stuff that's so developmentally linked, well, that's pretty much what determines it.

Edited February 9, 2012 by OhElizabeth
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[Tokyomarie]

Wow, you're really doing some reading! And now to put that in context, just think that anything you identify with in that thread is a NORMAL feeling for someone in your position, with your kid. And then when you grab that, then consider that a whole bunch of respondees (either in that thread or privately) found that in fact there IS a curve to get where these kids need to be eventually that DOESN'T have to involve some impressive list of junior high (or high school) essays and research papers. And in fact it's very possible to get so bogged down in the output stuff that they aren't yet developmentally ready to do (keyword DEVELOPMENTALLY) that we would FORGET to get the learning happening!

 

It's so hard when you're in the middle of the developmental process with your own child and you don't have lots of experience with other people's kids- NT & not- to have perspective. But, honestly, not writing major essays and research papers in junior high or early high school doesn't mean it will never happen. Nor does it mean the child is experiencing educational neglect as long as they are working on foundational skills daily.

 

On the other side of graduating two students, I can say this. My oldest daughter, who was developing bilingually, was not expected to write more than a page or two when she was in a very expensive international jr. high school. She is at least highly gifted, yet didn't have huge amounts of output at that age. Move up to second semester of 10th grade and, wow!, what a difference. Her brain shifted into high gear on output and so much came together for her as a writer. At that point, she was homeschooling & taking a JHU CTY online course. By the end of another year, her writing was clearly college level.

 

My next student (with a diagnosed language disorder, but gifted at some level) had all the struggles with writing we are talking about here. She developed bilingually through 6th grade, then homeschooled- English only- through graduation. In jr. high, she really was only managing paragraph level work for expository work, with occasional longer creative stories. We struggled and struggled through the early high school years. She finally wrote her first research paper when she was 17yo+. You know what? It didn't hurt her at all in college (she started at 19yo). My dd got terrific marks on her writing & her freshman writing instructor specifically mentioned that dd was one of her top 5 students that year. This is a young lady who had all kinds of language issues as a child! She still requires more processing time for her writing than most people, and doesn't do well on timed essays, but her untimed work is excellent.

 

As long as we are working on writing and continuing to build skills, respect for the developmental process does not equal educational neglect.

[PeterPan]

Thanks for sharing that Marie. I think that's exactly where dd is going to end up too.

[funnygirl]

After reading and absorbing and pondering all of your wisdom, I decided that I just needed a philosophical place to start, having never taught writing before. I purchased The Writer's Jungle at a discount through the HSCoop website and then had it printed using my Staples rewards points. (Yay for discounts!!) So my goal this week is to start working through that material myself.

 

As far as dd goes, we will continue the free-writing as it comes up in our everyday lives. I've put it all on the back burner though; not going to do any more stressing over this.

 

Hugs and chocolate all around!!

[PeterPan]

You know Funny, I was thinking today that I ought to find something narrative or creative or short or SOMETHING for dd next year. I don't know what it will be, and I may even recant. But it sounds like that might be a good fit for both our dds. I've been thinking about Marie's comment about the structure part finally kicking in when they hit a certain age, and I'm just not sure it's necessary to fight that. You can't fight development. You can *nudge* it or work on it, but it is what it is. And if the structure stuff (which is totally EF remember) kicks in around 10th gr for these kids (which is what I'm seeing a lot of people say annecdotally), well duh that's more like 6th-7th when you do the subtraction for EF. In other words, that would be the NORMAL or predicted time for all this to kick in.

 

So that was my lightbulb for today. I don't know what I'm looking for, but I'm looking for it. :)

[funnygirl]

You know Funny, I was thinking today that I ought to find something narrative or creative or short or SOMETHING for dd next year. I don't know what it will be, and I may even recant. But it sounds like that might be a good fit for both our dds. I've been thinking about Marie's comment about the structure part finally kicking in when they hit a certain age, and I'm just not sure it's necessary to fight that. You can't fight development. You can *nudge* it or work on it, but it is what it is. And if the structure stuff (which is totally EF remember) kicks in around 10th gr for these kids (which is what I'm seeing a lot of people say annecdotally), well duh that's more like 6th-7th when you do the subtraction for EF. In other words, that would be the NORMAL or predicted time for all this to kick in.

 

So that was my lightbulb for today. I don't know what I'm looking for, but I'm looking for it.

 

Brilliant.

 

I have to say, I am two chapters into The Writer's Jungle and it is really hitting home with me. It's a very relaxed approach, which suits me fine right now. She also goes at the whole process from a different angle (that of the professional writer, not the professional writing teacher) which I appreciate. So far, so good...

[PeterPan]

I borrowed WJ from a friend to look at for a day, and I just couldn't stomach it. But I don't think it was hitting me at the right point in my life. If it's making lightbulbs go off for you, that's awesome! You know she puts together a product called the Arrow that I think starts with lit and spins off LA skills. I haven't looked at it in ages. KA keeps encouraging me to do copybook with her. Haven't seen her jump for that, but maybe someday.