Dmmetler Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 DD has been on a mythology kick since we did ancients (and I've planned on looping back and going through them again, with different books because she's still so infatuated), but recently, she's begun making comments about wanting to be Greek because they have girl Gods and that THEY'D understand her. DD's been having a lot of social issues at church this past year, mostly related to the fact that almost all the kids in DD's age group attend the church school, and the social relationships tend to be formed there. DD attended for pre-K and K, at age 3 and 4, but I pulled her out at 5 because the school couldn't meet her academic needs. Last year, she seemed OK and to love seeing her school friends at church. This year, it was like the kids all decided to cut her off-she stopped getting birthday invitations, they'd mostly ignore her in class, they didn't respond to her invitations, etc. I expect that's simply moving on, but it's been hard on her. It also bothers her that "Our church doesn't think women should be smart". Which really isn't true-LCMS doesn't ordain women to ministry, but schools and education are a big part of LCMS and they do encourage women in leadership in this area. In fact, that's one thing I love about the church, and it's one reason why I feel very comfortable as a homeschooling mom in my church, because people who have devoted their lives to training children in the way they shall go and running/teaching in parochial schools seem to "Get" the reasons why I homeschool very naturally and be very accepting. But I can see why DD is struggling with reading about woman's suffrage and the fight for equal rights in history during the week at the same time she's having questions answered at church in a way that underline that men and women are inherently unequal, and that bothers her. I can see where Athena appeals to her-and why. But I don't want to see my child abandon our family's beliefs either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My first thought was to get her a book of Saints stories...there are LOTS about women. And it is the same kind of drama as the mythology, but with real people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Suppose she draws inspiration from Athena rather than worship her? But I agree with the pp, there are lots of useful kinds of saints. I have a fondness for this one. :) Rosie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rieshy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't know what LCMS is so I don't know if this is possible- but I highly recommend you find a congregation without a strong school affiliation. Last night I was chatting with my 15 yo and she brought up our old church. it didn't have a school but pretty much all the kids went to the same private school. If you didn't then somewhere around second grade you became completely invisible. She talked about how she always felt stupid and ugly there. We moved when she was 8- yet she has such strong feelings about it that she said when she meets girls who remind her of someone from that old church she has to remind herself that she likes herself. If that makes sense? Our new church has tons of home schooled kids plus we are at the crossroads of several counties so even though we are a small congregation we have kids going to many different school systems as well. It means that all the kids have to work to get to know each other? Much healthier, IMHO. Btw, we are reading Norse myths and my 4 yo wanted to know if Odin's eye could see God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't think this is as much about your daughter truly seeking another religion, as expressing her instinctual reaction to inequity she perceives in the faith she has been raised in. I can see how this would be really tough. IMO, you can make an argument for why your church is egalitarian, but you cannot force her to accept it. If she is seeing injustice, all the theocratic terminology in the world is not going to erase for her the in-flesh practice of an ordered hierarchy, no matter how benignly presented. She is probably feeling very conflicted. She wants to believe you, but she also can't deny her own observations. I think the best "argument" you can make is the one where you simply listen to her feelings, and let her know that they are valid. If she doesn't have friends at church, that is probably feeding even more into her sense of alienation. She probably identifies with Athena and other Greek goddesses, because they inspire a sense of power, of being somebody. If folks in your church reducing her to the status of unseen, unwanted, and unnoticed, I'm afraid no amount of doctrinal teaching will endear her to the Christian faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy in Australia Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could you maybe spend some time on women in the Bible? Some of them were quite inspirational: Deborah & Esther immediately come to mind. And missionaries? People like Corrie ten Boom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgiana Daniels Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree with the PP's about the saints--great way to get real examples in front of your daughter. The Greek stories really are fascinating, so I can see how it might happen. One thing, when we are reading them, we often air-quote when the word "god" or "goddess" comes up, so they easily differentiate our God from false ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBeth Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Maybe not what you want to hear, but I would change churches in a heartbeat - no matter how much I liked it. Being ostracized in a children's group at church is Hell, and as my sister could attest, can cause lifelong emotional scars. Get her out of there, Mom; she will thank you for it later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Lutheran, yes? I read a few years ago about how some Lutheran pastors were moving toward a devotion to Mary. By chance would that be something possible for your family? Possibly a book of saints. Maybe St. Therese of Lisieux What about a google for "famous Lutheran women?" That might give her someone to emulate. If all else fails maybe you should look at her religious education. Is it possibly a bit watered down "Jesus loves me" stuff? Maybe she needs more depth. Is your family living your faith? Does she see how important it is and not something to willy-nilly change who we worship? good luck. ETA: What about studying the women of the Bible. Some were strong in their faith and in their character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimm Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree with the changing churches advice. Such experiences can color how she feels about church, Christians, and God. Also, I remember feeling for my entire childhood that women were second class citizens in Christianity (because in my part of Christianity, they were). It was very damaging to my faith in the long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Nyssa Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Idea: continue your classical studies a little farther. Discuss that the Greeks who worshipped Athena eagerly gave it up to become Christians. Visit a Greek Orthodox church and look at the icons of women saints. Study such women saints as St Kassiani, St Macrina, etc. (full disclosure-- I'm EO :001_smile:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiguirre Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 But I don't want to see my child abandon our family's beliefs either. How would you define your family's beliefs? Are you LCMS? Lutheran in general? How you feel about those questions determines what you should do. If you're just Lutheran, how about an ELCA church with a woman pastor and kids from different schools? Would that work for you? If there isn't any close by, how about Methodist or Episcopalian or another denomination that ordains women? If you're LCMS and won't feel comfortable somewhere else, you'll have to spend a lot of time on apologetics. That may or may not be successful, your dd just might have a different take on religion than you do, but it's worth a shot. If she's miserable in the children's activities, I wouldn't make her go to them. There's nothing worse than being ostracized in a group where everyone else knows each other and ignores you. That would certainly give her a negative view of your church and possibly Christianity in general. If she can't stay in church with you or won't be able to do her sacraments because she doesn't go to Sunday school, I think you'll have to move to another LCMS church that doesn't have a school attached. I hope you can find a solution that both of you are happy with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K&Rs Mom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree with teaching about the saints & Biblical women. Could you talk to her about your church's position on women? I've explained to my dc that just because women have different jobs, that doesn't make them lesser jobs, just that people tend to be good at different things. If she feels like women are treated as less, it will be hard for her to want to be a part of this. It sounds like the social issues with classmates and the feminist issues are separate, so you may need more than one solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 How would you define your family's beliefs? Are you LCMS? Lutheran in general? How you feel about those questions determines what you should do. If you're just Lutheran, how about an ELCA church with a woman pastor and kids from different schools? Would that work for you? If there isn't any close by, how about Methodist or Episcopalian or another denomination that ordains women? If you're LCMS and won't feel comfortable somewhere else, you'll have to spend a lot of time on apologetics. That may or may not be successful, your dd just might have a different take on religion than you do, but it's worth a shot. If she's miserable in the children's activities, I wouldn't make her go to them. There's nothing worse than being ostracized in a group where everyone else knows each other and ignores you. That would certainly give her a negative view of your church and possibly Christianity in general. If she can't stay in church with you or won't be able to do her sacraments because she doesn't go to Sunday school, I think you'll have to move to another LCMS church that doesn't have a school attached. I hope you can find a solution that both of you are happy with. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Maybe not what you want to hear, but I would change churches in a heartbeat - no matter how much I liked it. Being ostracized in a children's group at church is Hell, and as my sister could attest, can cause lifelong emotional scars. Get her out of there, Mom; she will thank you for it later. :iagree: You'll never get to the doctrinal issues if she is ostracized from her peers. Edited February 7, 2012 by Starr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It sounds like you have a very bright, very observant dd. I would not completely discount her perception about your churches stance on women. As a child she is probably not talking about a denominational stance, but a general sense she has picked up from the people who make up this particular church. Does that make sense? She also sounds very strong. You are in a special place because she vocalized this to you. As she ages she may not vocalize it as much, but she will still long and look for strong, intelligent, beautiful women to emulate. I would tread very carefully here. I would probably encourage my dd towards some exploration. It might be different Christian traditions, it might be something a bit more Roman/Greek/Paganish. The point is you are there to help guide and direct, not shut her down so she sends her desires and longings into hiding. If you need any further ideas on exploring other Christian traditions, please feel free to pm. The female Saints, Mary, and the Orthodox churches general stance in support of strong women is one of the reason both dh and I felt drawn to it. He knew I would no longer be "blacklisted" as a "too intelligent" and neither would our dd. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't think this is as much about your daughter truly seeking another religion, as expressing her instinctual reaction to inequity she perceives in the faith she has been raised in. I can see how this would be really tough. IMO, you can make an argument for why your church is egalitarian, but you cannot force her to accept it. If she is seeing injustice, all the theocratic terminology in the world is not going to erase for her the in-flesh practice of an ordered hierarchy, no matter how benignly presented. She is probably feeling very conflicted. She wants to believe you, but she also can't deny her own observations. I think the best "argument" you can make is the one where you simply listen to her feelings, and let her know that they are valid. If she doesn't have friends at church, that is probably feeding even more into her sense of alienation. She probably identifies with Athena and other Greek goddesses, because they inspire a sense of power, of being somebody. If folks in your church reducing her to the status of unseen, unwanted, and unnoticed, I'm afraid no amount of doctrinal teaching will endear her to the Christian faith. :iagree: My dd feels exactly the same way. We don't attend a church now, but these are some of the same feelings Molly has toward the idea of organized Christian religion. I also agree with the PP who implored you to get her out of there, NOW. One of the reasons we left the liberal, UCC church we attended when dd was young (second and third grade, maybe?) was because it was in another town and she wasn't part of the "gang" of kids. She was invisible, and I have to say, to this day she STILL has scars. We had no idea it was happening; we'd all go to church, the kids would be dismissed for Sunday School, we'd join the other parents and pick her up after the service. One day she BURST into tears while getting dressed for church. It was all too much, and lookign back, there were signs-- she didn't have a "buddy" to do the Easter egg hunt with, etc. But we weren't in her SS classess so we didn't really know. DH and I were so sorry that we had missed them. We still don't really know exactly what happened, but it's a very raw wound even today, and she's almost 15. It kind of turned her off on church/Sunday school altogether. Maybe we waited too long, and if we'd known or moved more quickly she wouldn't be so hesitant to go back. She's really quite traumatized by churchgoers, and I don't use that term lightly. We are too, but for different reasons. ;) astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 D It also bothers her that "Our church doesn't think women should be smart". ..... But I can see why DD is struggling with reading about woman's suffrage and the fight for equal rights in history during the week at the same time she's having questions answered at church in a way that underline that men and women are inherently unequal, and that bothers her. . I can as well. It bothers me, and a 7 yo is honest and they see "fair" very easily at that age. I'm sorry - but you can't blame her. I doubt she'll grow up worshiping Athena :001_smile: , but she may very well move to a Christian denomination that respects women and puts them on the same level as men. I can't imagine a girl growing up now in our society not doing what your daughter is doing - but obviously many do not - or the churches that teach this would slowly go away. Also - as far as one poster mentioning the Greeks gave up Athena eagerly... uh - not so much. I'm sure some did - but there were MANY pagans in Greece even throughout the Byzantine Empire. There's a reason the Byzantine emperors had to keep making laws about pagan worship.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrid Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I can as well. It bothers me, and a 7 yo is honest and they see "fair" very easily at that age. I'm sorry - but you can't blame her. I doubt she'll grow up worshiping Athena :001_smile: , but she may very well move to a Christian denomination that respects women and puts them on the same level as men. I can't imagine a girl growing up now in our society not doing what your daughter is doing - but obviously many do not - or the churches that teach this would slowly go away. I could not agree more. Was going to add this to my previous post but hit "send" too quickly. astrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmmetler Posted February 7, 2012 Author Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've been dragging my feet on finding another church for awhile and letting DD bow out of children's programming, but obviously I have to move in that direction. There is a Greek Orthodox church in the area which she might enjoy visiting. I also like the idea of introducing her to strong female saints and other role models. She did go through a "saints" phase at about age 3, when she recognized that many of the streets in our subdivision are "saint somebody" and wanted to know who those people were, so it might be time to go more in-depth. At age 3, we stuck with Saints with pretty mild stories. I've been a little uncomfortable by the idea that women can't be called to ministry as well-in large part driven by the fact that my best friend growing up, and one of DD's two godmothers, is now a United Methodist minister, having really wrestled with her call. I wish we lived in the same state, because I think DD would benefit from contact with her. In my area, most of the churches with female pastors (even in denominations that allow them) are either COGIC, or UU. I've visited a COGIC church with friends a few times, and I'm just not comfortable with that worship style, nor for the fact that the church is SO politically enmeshed that about half the sermons sound more like campaign speeches than sermons to me, and while DD would probably find UU perfectly fine (after all, no problem with wanting to emulate Athena there!) I'd have real issues with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailorMom Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've been a little uncomfortable by the idea that women can't be called to ministry as well-in large part driven by the fact that my best friend growing up, and one of DD's two godmothers, is now a United Methodist minister, having really wrestled with her call. I wish we lived in the same state, because I think DD would benefit from contact with her. My MiL is a United Methodist pastor as well.... I'm glad you're considering a move to a different church - probably the best thing you can do for your daughter right there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 In front of God, no one has 'rights'. We are all sinners, and all need His grace to get by. We use the Bible to know His will, and it and the Sacraments are how He feeds us. That's why I never have a problem with the women's ordination question in the LCMS--it's not Biblical, and it's not a 'rights' issue. Rather, the office of holy ministry is instituted by God and has certain requirements that have nothing to do with who is 'better' or anything like that. Like many things about the Faith, we don't completely understand the reasons for this, but we can accept it and move on. OTOH, talking like women in general are less than men in general is not Biblical either, and I would not want to raise my children in a congregation where that happened routinely. Also, there ARE significant 'rights' issues in society, and I'm a big believer in advocating for women in the political sphere and in education and other aspects of public life. You can do both--I'm living proof. The social issue in the congregation is tricky. How big is your church? Are there other children who don't go to the church school? I grew up in a church with a parochial school, and I remember that the few kids who didn't attend came to Sunday School and seemed like they knew nothing about the Bible at all, and were unfamiliar to me (I think that they also attended the late service, which we did not.) At a young age I gravitated toward the kids I knew well from seeing them every day, and it wasn't until much later that I started thinking that I should try to seek out the ones who were less familiar to me to make them welcome. I don't know how you get around that dynamic except by being very proactive in hosting or attending all of the school functions. You might indeed be well-advised to look for another local congregation, or possibly need to be very proactive in befriending the mothers of the other children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Well Athena is cool. ;) I have a little Athena/Minerva interest. I have a bronze owl on my desk that a friend brought from England. I also don't think she's too young to discuss worship vs. admiration. While I admire many of the characteristics of Athena/Minerva, I don't worship her. Some kids admire SuperHeroes, Batman, Spiderman, but don't want to worship them. With your dd's interest in mythology it's no wonder she is drawn to Athena. I also agree about changing churches. There's nothing like be ostracized in a setting that is supposed to be welcoming to all. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Do you have an Episcopal church nearby? The liturgy would be similar in shape to what you are used to, but women are encouraged to be priests. Even if the local parish doesn't have a woman priest she would know they could be. And the Presiding Bishop for the entire United States is a woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funnygirl Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could those of you who have mentioned the Saints recommend a good starter book for a logic-age child? I have a dd13 who is VERY into mythology, and I love the idea of supplementing with a discussion of REAL women who did amazing things. Thanks!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I've been dragging my feet on finding another church for awhile and letting DD bow out of children's programming, but obviously I have to move in that direction. There is a Greek Orthodox church in the area which she might enjoy visiting. I also like the idea of introducing her to strong female saints and other role models. She did go through a "saints" phase at about age 3, when she recognized that many of the streets in our subdivision are "saint somebody" and wanted to know who those people were, so it might be time to go more in-depth. At age 3, we stuck with Saints with pretty mild stories. I've been a little uncomfortable by the idea that women can't be called to ministry as well-in large part driven by the fact that my best friend growing up, and one of DD's two godmothers, is now a United Methodist minister, having really wrestled with her call. I wish we lived in the same state, because I think DD would benefit from contact with her. In my area, most of the churches with female pastors (even in denominations that allow them) are either COGIC, or UU. I've visited a COGIC church with friends a few times, and I'm just not comfortable with that worship style, nor for the fact that the church is SO politically enmeshed that about half the sermons sound more like campaign speeches than sermons to me, and while DD would probably find UU perfectly fine (after all, no problem with wanting to emulate Athena there!) I'd have real issues with it. I actually really understand all that, especially your need for a church that has sacramental/ liturgical backbone (for lack of a better word). I think you can find a church that meets both yours and your dd's needs. I'm so impressed that you are acknowledging your child's spiritual needs, and trying to find a way to help her retain and nourish her faith. I don't think it's absolutely necessary to find a church with a woman's pastor. I'm Episcopalian, and the churches I've attended have happened to have male priests. That doesn't detract from the fact that ECUSA, as a whole, affirms and accepts women's ordination. The mentality and the attitude of the parish is one of egalitarian values. That's what I find important. That said, though Orthodox churches do not ordain women, I would agree that Orthodox do tend to be very affirming of women in other leadership roles. I don't mean to offend any Catholics here--but my overall impression with regards to the RCC versus the Orthodox, is that the latter are not so hypermasculinized. Orthodoxy seems to me much less obsessed with hierarchy and roles, than it is with spirituality. Orthodox doctrine, for example, teaches that the Trinity are co-equal, and equally divine. Also, early Orthodoxy held that the Holy Spirit is feminine, due to how Wisdom in the Scriptures is referred to as a "she." So, I think you might find a home in a Greek Orthodox church where your daughter could find the affirmation she's looking for. Or, you might find it elsewhere. The important part is you're trying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 That's why I never have a problem with the women's ordination question in the LCMS--it's not Biblical, and it's not a 'rights' issue. Respectfully, that's your opinion. I hold a different interpretation of both in-born rights and scriptural mandates on gender roles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My first thought was to get her a book of Saints stories...there are LOTS about women. And it is the same kind of drama as the mythology, but with real people. :iagree: And tell her the Greeks don't worship those gods anymore ;) They worship the same One you do...and they also don't ordain women beyond deaconess or abbess. (Greek Orthodox) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Could those of you who have mentioned the Saints recommend a good starter book for a logic-age child? I have a dd13 who is VERY into mythology, and I love the idea of supplementing with a discussion of REAL women who did amazing things. Thanks!! http://www.antiochian.org/AW-WomenSaints a good place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My first thought was to get her a book of Saints stories...there are LOTS about women. And it is the same kind of drama as the mythology, but with real people. :iagree: And Athena is cool.... But, so are those saints and Martyrs. Time for a church history course...and let's not forget women in the Bible: Deborah Ruth Esther The Marys Dorcas Oh, the one who drove a tent spike through the enemy's head while he slept...you know....strong women...:D Faithe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommyfaithe Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 :iagree: And tell her the Greeks don't worship those gods anymore ;) They worship the same One you do...and they also don't ordain women beyond deaconess or abbess. (Greek Orthodox) Yep..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Could those of you who have mentioned the Saints recommend a good starter book for a logic-age child? I have a dd13 who is VERY into mythology, and I love the idea of supplementing with a discussion of REAL women who did amazing things. Thanks!! Pick one. Here are more from a different company And still more but we are probably starting to overlap Edited February 7, 2012 by Parrothead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) That said, though Orthodox churches do not ordain women, I would agree that Orthodox do tend to be very affirming of women in other leadership roles. I don't mean to offend any Catholics here--but my overall impression with regards to the RCC versus the Orthodox, is that the latter are not so hypermasculinized. Orthodoxy seems to me much less obsessed with hierarchy and roles, than it is with spirituality. Orthodox doctrine, for example, teaches that the Trinity are co-equal, and equally divine. Also, early Orthodoxy held that the Holy Spirit is feminine, due to how Wisdom in the Scriptures is referred to as a "she." So, I think you might find a home in a Greek Orthodox church where your daughter could find the affirmation she's looking for. Or, you might find it elsewhere. The important part is you're trying! Don't tell that to the Sisters. ;) My mouse is broken...but I wanted to make a list of outstanding Abbeys and couldn't hyperlink. Wisdom is also seen as female within throw RCC...just had that class a few weeks ago. Edited February 7, 2012 by justamouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Well Athena is cool. ;) ... I also don't think she's too young to discuss worship vs. admiration. While I admire many of the characteristics of Athena/Minerva, I don't worship her. Some kids admire SuperHeroes, Batman, Spiderman, but don't want to worship them. With your dd's interest in mythology it's no wonder she is drawn to Athena. I also agree about changing churches. There's nothing like be ostracized in a setting that is supposed to be welcoming to all. :glare: :iagree: Personally, I wouldn't be at all concerned about the Athena thing. I doubt it's anything close to worship, but more of a "wouldn't it be cool to be Athena" thing, along the same lines as a boy thinking, "it be so cool if I was Spiderman." Your dd is looking for empowerment, and if a little fantasy life in Ancient Greece makes her happy, I don't see it as a problem. I mean, sure it would be better if she wanted to be Batgirl, but maybe that's just me... and for the record, I wanted to be Catwoman, so I didn't even want to be one of the Good Guys. Julie Newmar was so cool! (and yes, I'm that old. Let's not go there...) I'm not at all familiar with your church. From reading the thread, it sounds like you are Lutheran, but I will admit my cluelessness here and tell you that I thought "Lutheran was Lutheran" and wasn't aware that there were different denominations of Lutheran. So clearly I'm not the best person to offer you any religious advice. :tongue_smilie: But if your dd is very unhappy at church and the kids aren't nice to her, I think it's time for a change. I know the issue of women not having power in the church has been mentioned, and I have no idea if that's true, but I would bet your dd's issue is far more about her relationship with the other kids than it is with the overall structure of the church in general. What I'm trying to say is that if you had a great pastor who was super-nice to her and made people feel special, it probably wouldn't make a difference if that person was male or female. (I doubt your dd would be thrilled with a female pastor who seemed distant or unaware of her, either.) At her age, she may be noticing some differences in the roles men and women play at your church, but unless she is super-religious, I wouldn't think it would be a particularly big deal to her at this age, provided she felt welcome there and she had friends there. I could be totally off-base on all of this, but I keep thinking that your dd's issue isn't necessarily with the church in general, but this church in particular. Edited February 7, 2012 by Catwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poetic license Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not Christian, but as a monotheist, I think this is a big problem with getting so deeply enmeshed into greek/roman mythology at such a young age. If you still don't have your own beliefs down, romanticizing other "gods and goddesses" will confuse you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Has anyone else been watching George Stephanopolous wife this morning? She is a great example of what I mean by the Orthodox church being supportive of strong women. :D She is totally cracking me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not Christian, but as a monotheist, I think this is a big problem with getting so deeply enmeshed into greek/roman mythology at such a young age. If you still don't have your own beliefs down, romanticizing other "gods and goddesses" will confuse you. I think "romanticizing" them is far different than "worshipping" them. If she started building shrines and altars to Athena in her bedroom, I might be concerned, but I don't think that's the case here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Has anyone else been watching George Stephanopolous wife this morning? She is a great example of what I mean by the Orthodox church being supportive of strong women. :D She is totally cracking me up! Linky!!! (strong women...you will know one if you ever run head to head with a yiayia or babushka) :lol: (yeah, I made that mistake once...and only once!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) I don't mean to offend any Catholics here--but my overall impression with regards to the RCC versus the Orthodox, is that the latter are not so hypermasculinized. Orthodoxy seems to me much less obsessed with hierarchy and roles, than it is with spirituality. :lol: This comes across more or less as, "I don't want to offend -- but yo mama wears army boots!" And it's sort of coming out of nowhere, as the OP wasn't even talking about a Catholic church. The point of mentioning the saints was to say that one can have inspiring women role models in a church with male ordained leadership. I'm sitting here nursing the baby and looking at a shelf full of religious books right now... Sts. Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena, Faustina, Philomena, Margaret Clitherow... As far as I know, none of them grew a mustache. ;) These women were strong and influential, and there are many more where they came from. Strength and influence don't have to equate to power in a worldly sense (i.e., magical or political). I think there was some Jesus fellow who taught that. (...) I would bet your dd's issue is far more about her relationship with the other kids than it is with the overall structure of the church in general I agree, but would add that she might also be feeling limited if she's just doing standard age-level catechism or Sunday School classes. (Chucki touched on this, too.) Your daughter sounds very bright, and her religious formation needs to keep pace with all the other things mentioned in your sig, including her "pagan education." As a child, I was one of the few in our parish who went to public school, and I tended to think about things that went beyond what the religious ed book covered -- so I speak from personal experience on both the social and the intellectual counts. (If you're interested in talking about issues relating to religious education on the accelerated learner board, I'd be happy to have someone to discuss this with. I just figured out that my 8 year old is ready for 7th grade catechism. :001_huh:) Edited February 7, 2012 by Eleanor morning illiteracy syndrome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Linky!!! (strong women...you will know one if you ever run head to head with a yiayia or babushka) :lol: (yeah, I made that mistake once...and only once!) She was on good morning america and was special cohost on the view. She was definetly entertaining. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I am not sure how many of these things are even applicable to your religion, but we talked about some "baby theology" when these issues were brought up: - God IN the world, who makes a part of the physical world vs. God OUT of the world (basically, classical polytheism vs. a concept of transcendent God in monotheist religions); - Anthropomorphism of Greek gods, their "human" nature, vs. God who cannot be reduced to a concept, an attribute, or any sort of anthropomorphization; - The interwoven nature of divinity & humanity in the classical world (with "middle stages" of heroes and alike), and how that compares to God who operates outside of the world; - Why God never "does" anything, why cannot we talk about Him in human language, and why as a consequence He cannot "be" anything (smart, etc.) in human language, while the same is applicable to Greek gods; - Skepticism and even monotheism in Greek culture (there is a whole bunch of texts and excerpts which contradict the "classical pantheon" image of the Greek culture); - Why adhering to one religion as opposed to another is not a "choice" as much as it has to be a result of a genuine, intellectually honest convinction, so kids therefore cannot "choose" their gods; - You may find it necessary to talk about the historical transformation of late antiquity into the Christian civilization. Since your DD is academically quite advanced, I think her religious education should follow the same route. She is probably bored out of her mind and craving some depth if you keep her in age-appropriate or "grade level" religious studies. I have no idea how these things work by you, but you may wish to offer to her some more meaty stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 :lol: This comes across more or less as, "I don't want to offend -- but yo mama wears army boots!" And it's sort of coming out of nowhere, as the OP wasn't even talking about a Catholic church. I brought up the RCC to give some context to the Orthodox's view on women. I really don't mean to offend. I've studied the doctrines of both branches, and visited several RCC and Orthodox churches. There is a difference in culture on many levels. Many a priest and theological student I've had discussions with (both RCC and conservative Anglican) have expressed in approving terms how the RCC is much less "feminized" than other catholic branches, including Orthodoxy. That's been my observation as well. That's not to say I think the RCC doesn't have a feminine aspect. Or that it hates women. It has its many women saints and doctors. And many women feel valued and honored in RCC parishes. I'm referring to...I guess, a difference in tone between the east and the west. In their writings, as well as their liturgy and practice, not just now, but over the long history of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Suppose she draws inspiration from Athena rather than worship her? But I agree with the pp, there are lots of useful kinds of saints. I have a fondness for this one. :) Rosie Thank you Rosie - I've never heard of her. Awesome!!! I agree with guiding her more away from mythology and towards heroic Christian women - there are so many great books on the Saints. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 There is a difference in culture on many levels. Many a priest and theological student I've had discussions with (both RCC and conservative Anglican) have expressed in approving terms how the RCC is much less "feminized" than other catholic branches, including Orthodoxy. That's been my observation as well. I agree that there are cultural differences, but they're often exaggerated by outsiders in a way that denigrates one or the other tradition. Try calling Orthodoxy "hyperfeminized" and "obsessed with touchy-feeliness" in a room full of devout Orthodox men, and see how they react. You might want to have your running shoes on. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teachin'Mine Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Dmmetler, I don't know if you're at all near Nashville, but if you have a chance to go, your daughter might really enjoy meeting some of these amazing women. Their faith is strong, their dress is very traditional, and they play sports really well!!! :lol: Women are not ordained priests in the Catholic Church, but their role as sisters is so important. http://nashvilledominican.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janie Grace Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I'm not Christian, but as a monotheist, I think this is a big problem with getting so deeply enmeshed into greek/roman mythology at such a young age. If you still don't have your own beliefs down, romanticizing other "gods and goddesses" will confuse you. I agree. This is the reason we don't start with Year 1. I did, long ago when we first started, and it just didn't feel right, based on my dd's age and cognitive development. She had just started understanding Bible stories... why confuse her with stories of gods/goddesses at such a tender age? There are many years to cover those topics. She's 12 now, strong in her faith, and doing just fine with processing the Ancients for the first time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 What I would do... 1. Talk to the church about the social issues in class. That HAS to be resolved. Ask for ways to help integrate your daughter. 2. Explain to your daughter your church's stance on women in areas of leadership. There are plenty of ways women vitally contribute in churches that don't allow women to hold pastoral or eldership positions. Explain it to her in a POSITIVE way, because it IS positive. However, you have to believe that if you are going to teach your daughter to. If you don't understand it, go talk to the ministerial staff. Maybe work through a book together on the subject. 3. Personally, your daughter is 7yo. I'd do a subtle drop of classical mythology. I do NOT mean I would forbid it. I would definitely replace it with something else though until your child is much older and firmly rooted in her faith (post-catechesis). The ladies on this board have given you plenty of options. Strong woman in the Bible, saints (though as a Lutheran Missouri Synod, I don't really see you going this route), and/or famous women of the Reformation. 4. I'd probably also do a Bible study on Acts 17. That's where I'd start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aelwydd Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I agree that there are cultural differences, but they're often exaggerated by outsiders in a way that denigrates one or the other tradition. Try calling Orthodoxy "hyperfeminized" and "obsessed with touchy-feeliness" in a room full of devout Orthodox men, and see how they react. You might want to have your running shoes on. :lol: Hmph, I know at least half a dozen traditional Anglicans in my last church that regularly expressed this view to fellow Orthodox during parish get-togethers. (The priest in my last church just went RCC, and the whole parish went with him.) There was a lot of theological peeing contests, I can tell you that. :lol: I didn't claim the Orthodox were hyperfeminized, merely that they are not as masculinized as the RCC. I think it's partly because their priests marry, and thus tamed by the "gentler/kinder sex," as it were. Also, "obsessed with touchy-feeliness" is not something I charged the Orthodox with. After all, it's not the Orthodox priesthood that wears the Baroque-style laced vestments. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 A few things- are you aware of the Martin Loopers? It's a Lutheran email loop and there would be some really good Lutheran input on this there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 :iagree: And Athena is cool.... But, so are those saints and Martyrs. Time for a church history course...and let's not forget women in the Bible: Deborah Ruth Esther The Marys Dorcas Oh, the one who drove a tent spike through the enemy's head while he slept...you know....strong women...:D Faithe Jael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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