s/o: pay rent if you're working, but not in college?

[Audrey]

To answer the question - would I charge a child of mine room and board if they were working and the answer is "maybe."

 

I would not if they had little money or were saving for big goals - college, their own place, etc.

 

I would if I felt they were skating close to taking advantage of me/ acting entitled/ showing poor money management (i.e their not paying room and board was causing issues).

 

The room and board would be small - just to cover some expenses.

 

 

:iagree: with this. There is no cut-and-dried answer AFAIC. It will truly depend on the child at the time and his intentions and actions. I'm willing to be helpful. I'm not willing to be a doormat.

[Deb in NZ]

We have been discussing this in depth lately as ds#1 looks to begin full-time work this month. Both dh & I have lived with family over the years for short terms, but paid for all our personal expenses & voluntarily paid some toward the household expenses. I went to uni straight out of highschool & lived on campus. I was home the occasional weekend, but not regularly. Even summers I lived where my work was. Dh lived at home for the five years of his apprenticeship (age 16-21) & was not asked to pay board, but apprentices were paid very little & that was his education.

 

Dd went to uni at age 17 & lives there, five hours away from home. When she is home we don't charge anything as she has paid all her expenses since leaving two years ago. She has taken student loans for her tuition & has worked to cover all other expenses. In 2013 she has arranged to do a cadetship on a tallship that works with highschool students. She will be on-board 20 days & off 10 days every month. She asked if she could be based at home during her off-time & we've agreed. We don't plan on changing her board during that time as her small allowance from the cadetship will barely cover her personal expenses. We will ask her to help out around the house during that time.

 

Ds#1 begins his apprenticeship this month. It will take him 3-4 years to complete & during that time he is paid a reasonable wage. Ds#1 has a small student loan from an engineering course he took last year. With focus he can pay the loan off in about six months if he puts half his wage towards it. He will have $ deducted from his wage by the company for tools & nightschool courses, but he'll still bring home a decent amount. Ds#1 is NOT a good saver, so we have decided to charge him "board" as a way to prepare him to budget for his expenses. Dh was reluctant as he didn't have to pay board, but has agreed as he, too, sees that ds#1 doesn't have the ability to budget that he'll need when he leaves home.

 

We, also, have watched my 40yo brother take advantage of my father. My brother moved in with my father over two years ago when his marriage broke up & has lived there rent-free since then. He saves nothing, even though he is on a salary much higher than dh ever made. He doesn't help out around the house & spends his $ on extras he can't afford (like taking his girlfriend to Vegas.) We don't want to enable our dc to live this lifestyle.

 

We have decided to require ds#1 to pay $70/week "board." We'll, also, require that he put $250/week into his long-term savings account towards bigger goals, like a car or downpayment on a house. This will leave him with about $140 each week to use as he pleases. He'll be responsible for paying for his entertainment, cell phone, & extras, such as clothing, but he will have use of our vehicles (just pay gas) & all other living expenses (food, power, etc.) we'll cover. If/when he decides to buy his own vehicle, he'll be responsible for all that vehicle's expenses. $70/week sounds like a lot, but that wouldn't cover even really cheap rent in a flat sharing with 4-5 others, much less food, power, etc. I plan on putting ds#1's 'board' into a special savings account to give back to him when he does move out so he'll have $ for his bond, etc. He won't know he will get this back, so will be encouraged to save for up-coming expenses. We didn't want to charge him what it would really cost to live away from home as we would much rather him live at home during most / all of his apprenticeship. Living away from home would take 75+% of his take home pay just to meet basic expenses, leaving him with little to put into savings.

 

Ds#2 is a good saver. By the time he begins his apprenticeship, ds#1 will have just finished his apprenticeship & dh will have just reached retirement age. What arrangements we make with ds#2 will depend a lot on his attitude at the time.

 

JMHO,

Edited February 5, 2012 by Deb in NZ

[DawnM]

We have told our kids they are welcome to live with us as long as they wish provided they are abiding with our rules. This includes actively seeking a job if they are not in school and/or working.

 

We will provide housing and tuition at the local college and they do not have to work while there. However, they may not get as much spending money as they would like if they don't have a part time job. That is their choice.

 

I do not know if we can provide transportation in the form of a vehicle but I am happy to buy a bus pass! :lol: Although I will be honest and say that we don't live anywhere near a bus stop so I don't know how that will work yet.

[Bluegoat]

I expect all my kids to get a 4 year college degree, absolutely. I actually expect them to get grad. degrees unless their 4 year degree is exceptionally employable....

 

If they choose not to go to college, Hell would rain down on them from us.

 

:eek:

[Jane in NC]

I see a lot of problems with the live at home and pay rent philosophy. If the young adult pays rent, the young adult is a tenant and not a member of the family. The parents have no right to dictate lifestyles, choices, etc. and most parents I know, us included, are not willing to house a young adult in our own personal area with younger sibs in the house and not be able to say, "Young adult...you may not do X in this house." (We actually don't have to really state any rules for dd. We always laughingly say dd was born as a mature adult in a baby's body!) But, nearly every single young adult I've known who has paid rent has had their lives dictated to them by their parents and they've paid for a bedroom, one shelf of the refrigerator, a shared bathroom, and no privacy...if they rented a room near campus or near their job from someone they were not related to, they'd be far more likely to have the privileges that go with paying rent.

 

That's problem #1.

 

---snipped post---

 

All that said, I don't really see my financial job as finished when my kids turn 18. Yes, the roll does change, but they still need as many boosts up as I can provide because the world is not a kind financial place to young people these days.

 

Faith

 

Reading Faith's post, I see that family culture (which plays such a huge roll in post secondary educational decisions) is also playing a role here. I have dear seventy-something friends who own a large summer cottage. They invite all of their children and grandchildren (often teens who stay without their parents) to join them in the summer. For the most part, people rise to the challenges of cooking for the ten or fifteen people in residence. One volunteers to buy groceries one day, another volunteers to cook or clean up. The matriarch and patriarch of the clan love having the young people around. In fact, my son is one of their "adopted" grandkids who has a home away from home there. Last summer they gave my son free room and board for two months while he assisted them with chores. (One of the pair had recently had a hip replacement and was limited in movement.) It was a mutually beneficial relationship for all parties.

 

Circumstances may dictate that some families need the rent money from a young adult to help pay the utilities. But I cannot see us having a business (landlord/tenant) relationship with our son just to prove a point. This is his home. He is welcome here.

 

Another poster wrote that she has no intention of her children using her home as her "rent-free crashpad". I can't imagine my son even trying to pull that one off. Again, this is about family culture. Many of us homeschool for academic reasons or to tighten family bonds. Do we really expect our kids to walk all over us down the road?

 

Or am I naive?

[ThreeBlessings]

I've thought about this quite a bit. I was working almost full time hours at age 15 while still in high school. At 16 I did have a full time job. I wasn't expected to pay rent, but if my parents needed money for something I gave it to them. I was not taught to manage that money AT ALL and really imo might as well not have been working as I wasn't working towards anything. I moved out when almost 18.

 

I don't think I will ask my children to pay rent, however if they are 18 and have a job but aren't in college I will expect them to pay for their own expenses, car, gas, phone, food, clothes, etc. I will also, if needed, help them manage their money by helping them to set up a savings account and setting aside a certain % of their money. If they are in college I would probably still expect them to cover their own expenses minus food. If I am more financially secure by that time I could see contributing more towards their expenses such as a family plan for phone and whatever I could manage.

 

I think my children may want a job before they are 18. If so, I will not ask them for money for rent nor their expenses, but if they want extra things I can not afford they will be welcome to buy for themselves. I will however, expect to be handed a portion of the money to be put into a savings account for them. This will help them be able to put a down payment on a car or home. I wish my parents had done this. Even though I had been working since I was 15, and babysitting before that, I had nothing but the shirt on my back when I moved out. Not cool.

Edited February 5, 2012 by ThreeBlessings

[Julie in CA]

:confused: Maybe I'm not quite understanding the question.

My college kid doesn't pay rent or expenses because he has no money.

Kid who is working full time helps out with expenses because he has money coming in.

 

Until they have money to pay, they don't pay. :001_huh:

[Haiku]

Do we really expect our kids to walk all over us down the road?

 

Or am I naive?

 

Some kids do. We raise our kids the best we can, but we can't control how they behave when they are adults.

 

I was the one who said that about the rent-free crashpad. Maybe I am jaded. The child that I could see doing that was adopted at an older age and has spent most of her time here attempting to walk all over us. She would walk all over us if we would let her.

 

But people with bio kids also end up in situations where, despite their best efforts, their children grow up to be self-centered or thoughtless or mentally ill or manipulative or addicted or what-have-you. You can't always blame the parents. Adults choose their own behavior. And homeschooling is not a magic bullet.

 

Again, this is about family culture.

 

No, it's not. That's a convenient way of looking down your nose at those who perhaps aren't as fortunate as you in their children's behavior. "Well! In OUR family culture, my perfect little darling dear would NEVER try to take advantage of us! We raised him better than that!"

 

Again I say: Adults make their own choices, sometimes in spite of our (their parents') best efforts.

 

Tara

Edited February 5, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[Haiku]

:confused: Maybe I'm not quite understanding the question.

My college kid doesn't pay rent or expenses because he has no money.

Kid who is working full time helps out with expenses because he has money coming in.

 

Until they have money to pay, they don't pay. :001_huh:

 

Makes sense to me.

 

Tara

[StephanieZ]

I went to school with kids whose parents had this attitude. A lot of them ended up flunking out ... NOT because they weren't perfectly capable of college-level work, but because they were in college for the wrong reasons or at the wrong time. College is not for everyone, and neither is going to college straight out of high school.

 

I switched schools at one point, for perfectly valid reasons, but my father did not approve of the school I switched to. He exerted so much pressure on me to change back that it very nearly destroyed our relationship. I don't hold it against him now (it was a long time ago), but I do look back on it as a parenting mistake he made.

 

College-age children should be making their own decisions about college. The parents can't, and shouldn't try to, own it.

 

Tara

 

Well, my husband and I both had parents who had this attitude.

 

Of 7 kids in 2 familes, all 7 got 4 year degrees straight out of high school, and all 7 got graduate degrees by age 30. Average incomes of the 7 are likely in the top 5% of the nation. 5 out of 7 have children (and all of those marriages remain intact), the other two are happy bachelors in commited relationships. All grandkids of age so far have also received 4 year degrees.

 

In fact, every close friend of mine from high school had parents with this attitude, and every one of them got 4 year degrees and graduate degrees. Of my 8 best friends in high school (all with high expectations parents, in a public high school), there are 2 MDs, 2 phDs, 1 lawyer, 1 MS scientist, 1 MA artist, 1 MS pHD computer scientist.

 

I know TONS of families with the expectation that every child go to college and/or grad school. However, I don't know a single person in my close circle of friends or family who bombed out of college under circumstances you describe.

Edited February 6, 2012 by StephanieZ

[Nan in Mass]

Katilac -

 

Our family has a tradition of adult children living at home. My parents did it. My husband and I did it. My oldest has done it. Children who are in college don't pay house-money because they have no money. We keep a place for them (their childhood room, if possible) until we are relatively sure they are not going to need it. If they return unexpectedly, we rearrange the house to make room for them. Children who are out of work don't pay house-money because they have no money. It is assumed that everyone who is older than a toddler wishes to contribute to the family. That contribution varies greatly depending on the resources of the family member. There is a strong feeling of sharing what one has, when one has something, and expecting to get to share what others have when one does not. The feeling isn't time-dependent, so we don't tend to think of resources as a matter of sharing something finite evenly with only our own children. We may be giving one child $40,000/year right now for college and another child may be living relatively independently farther away and not receiving much of the resources at the moment. The first one, having graduated from college, knows that if his brother is starving, he will have to share with him. This all gets a bit more complicated when different spending habits are involved and yes, there is some grumbling here and there when the person who was buying cups of coffee suddenly needs help from the person who filled a thermous every morning, but it is assumed that everyone loves each other enough to forgive such things and that everyone is trying hard to support themselves. Nobody really expects life's resources to be evenly or even fairly divided. We all think it would be nice if they were, but we all are practical enough to know that they aren't. If we die, we have told my sister and her husband (who will become guardians) to take our savings and put an addition on their house so there will be room for everyone. We also have told them that if one of their children has an accident or something and needs the money, they should spend it on that child. In other words, our resources will become their resources, to be spent just as if our children were their children, since at that point they would be. Would this be "fair" to our children? No, but at that point, our children's lives would be very different. They would belong to my sister's family and share in that family's fortunes.

 

As far as my children go, we have dealt with a variety of circumstances.

Child in college, not working: We paid everything. We provided car part way through (old clunker). Child had some loans. We will help pay back if possible but might not be.

Child in college, working a small campus job: We paid everything we were asked for, but child tended to pay for things like gas.

Child at home not working: Child voluntarily found ways to help (like a construction project and laundry and driving siblings around).

Child at home working: Child volunteered house money and also helped.

Child at home doing an apprenticeship: This in theory paid full time but in practice, tools, commuting gas, wear and tear on truck, etc. sucked up most of the income. We helped out lots.

Child working and living with relatives: Child voluntarily paid minimal house money. We helped with occasional big expenses.

Child working and living in an apartment: Child couldn't quite make ends meet. We helped. Child decided this didn't work at this time and moved back home.

 

In all cases, child expected us to help but also tried hard to contribute. In the near future, we will have a child working full time at a relatively high-paying job and living at home. The plan is for that child not to pay house-money but instead to put the money towards paying off college loans. The assumption is that the child will pay for car and phone himself, but is welcome to use our cars, of course. We'll keep everyone on our health insurance as long as possible (and greeted the new age extension with GREAT relief).

 

Tara- It isn't a matter of snobbery. It truly is a matter of family culture. We received such help from our own parents and expect to pay that forward by helping our children. Somebody, somewhere along the line, had the resources to start this tradition and if we have the resources, we will continue it. So yes - it has to do with wealth, but no, it doesn't have to do with being snobbish.

 

Nan

 

In the near future, we will have a child

[Lovedtodeath]

Living at home and not in college? Would depend on what they do with their time and money. If they are irresponsible, spoiled and lazy then they would have to pay rent. I might charge rent and put it all into a savings plan and give it back to them with the stipulation that they use it to get their own place.

[elegantlion]

Many of us homeschool for academic reasons or to tighten family bonds. Do we really expect our kids to walk all over us down the road?

 

Or am I naive?

 

I don't expect it. I could be naive, but I also don't expect my son to grow to be the perfect adult either.

 

My parents have created the culture of family. My mom didn't have this, she had to move out just to finish high school. My dad was raised by grandparents, because his alcoholic mother couldn't. Home life is very important to them. We've adopted that mentality. Maybe for us it's the function of having a smaller family, IDK. We're not wealthy, but we do consider this to be ds's home too.

 

I could even see ds moving in with my parents down the road. They'd be happy to have him. But we all get along too.

[Haiku]

Tara- It isn't a matter of snobbery. It truly is a matter of family culture.

 

No, because the poster I responded to said that she couldn't imagine her son trying to walk all over them. She wasn't talking about whether they would let him live at home rent-free, she was talking about how her son would never try to walk all over them. It wasn't about what they would do for their child, it was about how their child would treat them. I was just pointing out that your family culture does not absolutely determine how your child will behave.

 

Tara

[LucyStoner]

I expect my kids to go to college but would be open minded about either working for awhile first or about some alternative to college.

 

I would not charge a child who was in college rent. I would charge a child who was working only and spending all of their money on luxuries, going out or toys rent. Just because I would not want to set them up to fail when they move out and keep their spending up too high.

 

I know a girl who is my age- we went to high school together who has no disabilities and who got her college degree but who still lives at home, working very little and living not all that differently than she did when she was 15. I would want to avoid that situation with my kids.

[Nan in Mass]

Tara - No, of course one's family culture doesn't guarantee how a child will behave. It does, however, play a large part in everyone's expectations. The poster said she couldn't imagine her child walking all over them because that child is now an adult and not walking all over them, so she can speak with some assurance about the future as well. Could she imagine it when the child was young? No, probably not. It is hard to imagine something like that. And why would one, unless one had to? Think positively and all that... She is just saying that it isn't necessary to cross that bridge until one gets there. In other words, it is possible to have a family culture that assumes that one's children won't walk all over one and set one's policies from there rather than set one's policies based on the assumption that one's children will take advantage of one unless one protects oneself. My own family is like this. It has nothing to do with homeschooling. It has nothing to do with assuming we are better than everyone else and won't have our share of misfortunes. I am rather handicapped by having to preserve the privacy of family members, so I can't list out for you our misfortunes and all the parenting mistakes we have made and all the bad things children in my family have done. When those things happen, the family takes what steps it needs to. It has more to do with one's definition of adulthood and one's definition of personal property as opposed to family property. Those lines are drawn different places for different families. There are many countries in the world where it is normal for adults in a family to keep living together, even after they are married and have children of their own. (But of course you know that, probably better than I do.) Over the years, reading this board, I have come to see that neighboring families can be as different as if they lived in different countries. You've been here as long as I have. I'm sure you have noticed it, too.

 

As the mother of a very unperfect family, I am familiar with the feeling of wondering if I am the only one whose children are running amok despite my best efforts. I continue to expect the best of them, and continue to be happily surprised when they grow up and stop running amok and thank us for not casting them off during the running-amok phase. That isn't to say that this will happen with every child. But we are living proof that it is possible to have this family culture AND running-amok children and still have everything work out ok, most of the time, and deal with it when it doesn't, and continue, despite it all, to have this sort of family culture. And we know lots of other people who also have this same family culture and unperfect children, despite homeschooling or the best prep schools. Only the most naive think that will protect them from misfortune.

 

Nan

 

ETA - I'm not saying that it is worse to have a family culture designed or adapted so that it can offer shelter to children who have their own path and may not choose to be a permanent part of a web of heavy mutual family obligations forever. Obviously, for many children it is a lifesaver that such families exist. I am just saying that there are many different family cultures.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Nan in Mass
Rereading it, this still doesn't convey the "different is just different" that I wanted it to.

[Deb in NZ]

Why is requiring a child who is working full-time to contribute to the family finances seen so negatively by many? Others said they would only "charge rent" if they saw their child wasting their money? By changing the rules later the "charging of rent" could be viewed as a punishment for not doing as the parents want you to & could create negative feeling in the family as I see it.

 

Dh & I see that our role as parents doesn't end when a dc turns 18yo. There are still many, many areas that we need to teach & guide our dc as they become independent adults. Financial responsibility is a big challenge for many young people. I believe it better to teach my dc right from the start to put aside a bit of their income for housing/living cost, a bit for long-term savings, a bit for day to day living costs, etc. By changing the rules later, you are punishing bad choices (like getting a fine) rather than teaching good habits.

 

My dc know that they are always welcome to live here, but everyone is expected to support themselves to the best of their ability. Basic food, shelter, etc. will never be denied or questioned. Anyone who is living here full-time we will do our best to provide a bit of space in the house that they can consider their own private space. Ideally that will be a bedroom to call their own, but many times "ideal" doesn't work out. Dd has had to sleep in our old caravan (hard-top camper) out back when she's home since she moved out 2 years ago to go to uni. In the winter it is too cold to sleep there, so she sleeps on the couch. In 2013 she will be based here regularly, so we are adding on to our house to provide another bedroom, giving her a place to call her own as ds#1 will most likely still be living at home.

 

Family "contribution" can take many forms. Some dc have more money than time, so they contribute money towards family expenses. Other dc have more time than money and they do a lot more to help the household run smoothly. As Nann has stated this giving of time &/or money isn't just about dh, I & our dc, it extends to our extended family as well. Everyone is supported, but no one gets a "free ride." That's what family is to me.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Deb in NZ