Lucy the Valiant Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (If I am, you can tell me.) So we're doing Growing With Grammar 3 this year (I'm on an endless quest for the perfect grammar program), and we started chapter 3 - the difference between action verbs and linking verbs. My problem comes with the definition of "action verbs we cannot see" - and a couple of the sample sentences actually use LINKING verbs. ARGH! This is my pet peeve with grammar programs! "That smells fishy." (smells = linking verb, and fishy is a predicate adjective, right? am I reading this wrong?) Same for "That sounds like Mary's voice." ARGH. Is there an English grammar program that teaches right-off-the-bat the difference between transitive, intransitive, and linking verbs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Does this even matter? (I think I'm overthinking things.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KristenR Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Oh I wish I had paid more attention to grammar. But then again, I went to public school and I really don't remember all this being taught. Sadly, when I hear things like " transitive, intransitive, and linking verbs" my eyes glaze over. I suppose I will just look forward to learning it with my kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyR Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 It could be. If you have a list of verbs with multiple personalities: appear, feel, grow, look, prove, remain, smell, sound, taste, and turn they can be both linking or action. If you can replace the verb with are , am and is and it makes sense. Then its a linking verb. If you replace the word with are, am, and is, and it doesn't make sense. Then its an action verb. Okay, so you have the sentence : That smells fishy. Replace it with IS. That IS fishy. Does it make sense to you? That is a tough one. Some may say yes, and some may say no because its not saying what smells fishy. You be the judge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatmansWife Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't know the answer. But....I'd say...let it go you Grammar Nazi. I think GWG is a really good grammar program. I don't think that in grade 3 we need to get too complicated or make things harder than they have to be. But, that's just my 2 cents. :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Have you looked at KISS Grammar? It doesn't focus on what type of verb it is in level 1, but just notes where the verb phrase and subject are, then soon adds complements (predicate noun, predicate adjective, direct object, indirect object). It uses real sentences, and it also acknowledges that sometimes there are multiple right answers. ;) Download the 3rd grade level 1 workbook and answer key. If you have a tablet, you can convert the Word doc to PDF and use a PDF annotating app to do the work with no printing. That's how I use it on my Thrive. My son really enjoys this grammar! It's more difficult, but more fun also. We snuggle on the couch and discuss the grammar of real sentences! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 ARGH! This is my pet peeve with grammar programs! "That smells fishy." (smells = linking verb, and fishy is a predicate adjective, right? am I reading this wrong?) Same for "That sounds like Mary's voice." ARGH. Er, what do you propose is the correct way to say these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmrich Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Try Rod and Staff. Really. It is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 MCT doesn't confuse action and linking verbs. Neither does Hake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TracyP Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I agree with the suggestions for MCT and KISS. (I haven't seen the others suggested) MCT would treat smells as a linking verb in your example sentence. KISS would not try to differentiate, but would just label smells as a verb. We are only two weeks in, but I really like KISS so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Er, what do you propose is the correct way to say these? That is the correct way to say them, it's just that the verbs aren't action verbs. Sensory verbs like smell, sound, taste, can be action or linking. If the subject is doing the smelling, sounding or tasting, then it's action. If the verb can be replaced by "is" and the sentence still makes sense, it's linking. That smells fishy. Nothing is smelling. That = fishy. I smell flowers. I am using my sense of smell as an action. I am not flowers. Mary's voice sounds high. Mary's voice is high; Mary's voice = high The bell sounds every Sunday morning. The bell is doing something: making a noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silliness7 Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 (If I am, you can tell me.) So we're doing Growing With Grammar 3 this year (I'm on an endless quest for the perfect grammar program), and we started chapter 3 - the difference between action verbs and linking verbs. My problem comes with the definition of "action verbs we cannot see" - and a couple of the sample sentences actually use LINKING verbs. ARGH! This is my pet peeve with grammar programs! "That smells fishy." (smells = linking verb, and fishy is a predicate adjective, right? am I reading this wrong?) Same for "That sounds like Mary's voice." ARGH. Is there an English grammar program that teaches right-off-the-bat the difference between transitive, intransitive, and linking verbs? That would totally frustrate me too. I don't think you are over thinking it. There are thousands of appropriate sentences they could have used instead. That just makes no sense. :confused: fwiw, I have been very thrilled with Rod & Staff. They start in 2nd grade and I can't say that they start off with transitive and intransitive verbs right from the start. They do get there and use proper terminology as well. I've used (not necessarily completed) every book but 6 and Vol. 1 of the 9/10 set. Love it, Love it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Student encounter this in the first level of MCT. In Practice Island sentence #30 is: The fox smelled something fishy in the salty wind. Here "smelled" is identified as an "Action Verb Predicate" in the "parts of a sentence" level of the four level analysis used in this program. Then, after students are "set up" to see "smelled" as an AVP, the diabolical Mr Thompson throws them sentence 31: The wind from the ocean smelled good. Now "smelled" is a "linking verb" (or a Linking Verb Predicate [LVP] in MCT speak). And he provides commentary for why, along with the admission that it can be "tricky." The main point is that LVPs make an "equation" between the subject and it's complement. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kathryn Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Have you contacted the author? I wonder why she'd do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucy the Valiant Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 Er, what do you propose is the correct way to say these? The sentences are correct, just not GWG's labels for the verbs. Try Rod and Staff. Really. It is good. We switched to GWG from R&S - I may need to look back into it. Student encounter this in the first level of MCT. In Practice Island sentence #30 is: The fox smelled something fishy in the salty wind. Here "smelled" is identified as an "Action Verb Predicate" in the "parts of a sentence" level of the four level analysis used in this program. Then, after students are "set up" to see "smelled" as an AVP, the diabolical Mr Thompson throws them sentence 31: The wind from the ocean smelled good. Now "smelled" is a "linking verb" (or a Linking Verb Predicate [LVP] in MCT speak). And he provides commentary for why, along with the admission that it can be "tricky." The main point is that LVPs make an "equation" between the subject and it's complement. Bill Hmmm, this is looking pretty interesting, too. That's exactly what I WANT them to see - that the "part of speech label" is ENTIRELY dependent on its function in the sentence. The labels for the verbs matter to me because they are needed to (later on, probably) identify the type of verb complement. And the type of verb complement is important so that one can correctly identify CASE when using pronouns! (I get so irritated at courses that try to require proper case without giving the kids a reason for it; I tutor public school kids for SAT prep, and this is one of my pet peeves.) Hubby agrees with previous poster that I'm being a grammar nazi, and I should let it go. My girls like GWG, so we will finish it out this year while I continue my quest. Thanks, all, for the perspectives! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plansrme Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 You say "grammar Nazi" like it is a bad thing.:confused: Terri Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmoe Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't know the answer. But....I'd say...let it go you Grammar Nazi. I think GWG is a really good grammar program. I don't think that in grade 3 we need to get too complicated or make things harder than they have to be. But, that's just my 2 cents. :001_smile: I agree with AprilMay here. Telling the difference between transitive, intransitive complete, and intransitive linking verbs is a skill better left for the logic age. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 R&S calls these linking verbs. I think they are actually introduced as "sometimes linking verbs." The point of Bill's lesson from MCT is also clearly taught in R&S, although less cleverly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Student encounter this in the first level of MCT. In Practice Island sentence #30 is: The fox smelled something fishy in the salty wind. Here "smelled" is identified as an "Action Verb Predicate" in the "parts of a sentence" level of the four level analysis used in this program. Then, after students are "set up" to see "smelled" as an AVP, the diabolical Mr Thompson throws them sentence 31: The wind from the ocean smelled good. Now "smelled" is a "linking verb" (or a Linking Verb Predicate [LVP] in MCT speak). And he provides commentary for why, along with the admission that it can be "tricky." The main point is that LVPs make an "equation" between the subject and it's complement. Bill This is similar to how I teach the difference. I include examples like The apple tasted sweet. Then I ask questions like....."do apples have taste buds?" "What was the apple eating?" etc. Obviously, it is easy for them to understand that apples cannot eat anything and therefore the verb is intransitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stripe Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 That is the correct way to say them, it's just that the verbs aren't action verbs. Ah, I didn't realize that was the criticism. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 Hmmm, this is looking pretty interesting, too. That's exactly what I WANT them to see - that the "part of speech label" is ENTIRELY dependent on its function in the sentence. The labels for the verbs matter to me because they are needed to (later on, probably) identify the type of verb complement. And the type of verb complement is important so that one can correctly identify CASE when using pronouns! (I get so irritated at courses that try to require proper case without giving the kids a reason for it; I tutor public school kids for SAT prep, and this is one of my pet peeves.) Hubby agrees with previous poster that I'm being a grammar nazi, and I should let it go. My girls like GWG, so we will finish it out this year while I continue my quest. Thanks, all, for the perspectives! Since you are interested :D In the MCT approach a studen in the first level of analysis would identify "parts of speech" so it both sentences "smelled" would be identified as a "verb." "Good" and "fishy" would both be identified as adjectives and "something would be an indefinite pronoun. It is in the second level of analysis that they identify "parts of a sentence" and here the student would see that "smelled" was behaving in the first instance as a (simple) Action Verb Predicate in one case and a Linking Verb Predicate in the other. At his point (the introductory Island level) MCT uses the term "subject complement" to refer to both nouns and adjectives (while making clear that a complement can be either, and having the child identify them as such in the first level of the analysis) but Mr Thompson does not (at this level) use the term "predicate adjective." I am very impressed with MCT. You might want to take a look. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This is similar to how I teach the difference. I include examples like The apple tasted sweet. Then I ask questions like....."do apples have taste buds?" "What was the apple eating?" etc. Obviously, it is easy for them to understand that apples cannot eat anything and therefore the verb is intransitive. I really enjoy Mr Thompson's "comments" in the Practice Island (and now Town) books. After he has the children do their analysis (and in this case after he has set them up for possible "failure") he does a debreifing of each sentence and why it is an important lesson. You likely know all this, but I'm writing to those who are unfamiliar with the MCT approach. His questions and comments sound like yours. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 This is similar to how I teach the difference. I include examples like The apple tasted sweet. Then I ask questions like....."do apples have taste buds?" "What was the apple eating?" etc. Obviously, it is easy for them to understand that apples cannot eat anything and therefore the verb is intransitive. I don't think you meant to say I intransitive, but linking? Intransitive would be an action verb. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I don't think you meant to say I intransitive, but linking? Intransitive would be an action verb. Lisa You are absolutely correct. I had typed out a much longer post that included information about predicate adjs and linking verbs and then about kids attempting to identify words in isolation and kids thinking that "like" is a verb and then getting completely confused when it is used a preposition, etc. I was multi-tasking and I didn't think the post was coherent and ended up selecting large portions to delete. I guess I didn't pay enough attention to what I left! But, for goodness sakes, yes, it is a linking verb. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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