Jump to content

Menu

How involved are your kids in planning their courses?


Recommended Posts

I've been trying to get my 13yo to talk to me about what he's interested in and what he'd like to learn in high school. I wanted to explain the general requirements for college admission (4yrs English and math, at least 3 years history and science, pe, electives, foreign language, etc) and give him some choice in what he'd want to learn to fill those requirements. Does he want to do earth science or biology next year? Do the materials in MFW look interesting to him? Would he like to take any of the vast array of courses from TPS? He didn't even want to sit down and discuss it, and when I finally got him next to me on the sofa with the laptop opened, he just said, "Yeah, that looks fine." Have you had a similar experience with your kids? There are so many different options out there, and one of the advantages of home education is the ability to let kids learn about things that are interesting to them, but he just doesn't care. :confused:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've started this process with my 13 yog.

After explaining the basic requirements (I printed out our state's requirements for graduation), I printed out a list of various electives to give her an idea of what was available. She indicated several she is interested in. She indicated that she would prefer an ancient/world history over US History. Other than that, I think the whole thing seems far off and somewhat overwhelming. I think she will care more when she gets started!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's the age and the gender! :lol:

 

We no longer homeschool, but when my ds was around 11 or so and began to hit that monosyllabic, uncommunicative stage, I started doing a "survey" at the end of the school year. I typed it on the computer. I had him rate (scale of 1 - 10) and evaluate all the curriculum we had used over the past year. He had to consider how well he liked it as well as its effectiveness. As an example, he wasn't super keen on Rod & Staff grammar, but he couldn't deny that it was extremely effective. I asked what curriculum he would definitely want to continue using and why. I asked him what he would like to throw out the window and why. I asked him what additional topics he would like to study. I asked him to evaluate me as a teacher - was I too involved, not involved enough, etc. I asked him about how we scheduled our day, what subjects we should do first, if he wanted to do the same order of subjects every day or rotate them around. Did he have enough time with friends, did he want to do an on-line class, a co-op class, etc. You get the general idea. Anyway, I typed it in Word and had him type all his answers in. I told him he didn't have to do it all in one sitting, but that I would like it back in three days. When he was finished, I printed it out, read it, made notes on it, and let it all "rest" a few days. THEN we sat down on the couch and discussed anything I didn't understand or that I needed more clarification on. I could not believe how much more willing he was to do this and how much more articulate he was in his reasoning by doing it this way rather than having a big long face-to-face discussion. Honestly, I think it was his age and because he was a boy! In my limited experience, 13-year old boys will only have extended conversations with you late at night and if it is their idea. Something about it being written down made it more formal and made him take it a bit more seriously. I think he thought that I was truly interested in his opinion (I was!).

 

Anyway, you might try this more hands-off approach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want my kids do have a large say in what they study in high school, but I don't ask open-ended questions because I might just get a blank stare in response!

 

I tend to ask multiple-choice questions. For example, we are currently considering options for English for my dd for next year. I made a list of five options, and we are discussing the pros and cons of each one. Since my older kids have pursued two of these options, we are including my older kids in these discussions so they can weigh in with first-hand pros and cons of the options they have done. Ultimately the decision is my daughter's, but we did limit her options to ones that dh and I considered both feasible and educationally sound.

 

Another example -- my dd wants to do an advanced music theory class. I have investigated various options and have come up with a short list of how she can do the class. The winner was doing the class at a local 4-year college, so then we had further discussions about which semester would work best for her. I listed all kinds of benefits and drawbacks to the various semesters (during this semester she will be taking 3 AP exams so probably not great, this semester is relatively empty, etc.), she added a few thoughts, and we came up with a plan.

 

So in discussions about future plans, I lay out all kinds of options so the student has many options to choose from, but I do not just give them a blank slate. And I rarely present in-depth options to a student more than a year or so in advance.

 

And like the previous poster, at the end of the year I have always solicited feedback from my kids on what approaches/programs/classes/curricula they like and which they don't. We have changed plans based on their feedback, so my kids know that their opinions are valued and taken seriously.

Edited by Gwen in VA
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For my DD, the basic requirements are fixed and non-negotiable. We are guided by the educational standards for university bound students in out home country and by the admissions requirements of the most selective universities in the US. There is no debate about this; it is what she considers necessary as well.

She has input in her history and literature studies: she can select works (and rarely opt out of something that was on the list), can choose her topics for her writing assignments, can choose which courses she wants to supplement with TC lectures.

She can also completely determine her daily schedule (with the exception of an outside class) and work on whatever she wants to work on for however long.

She can NOT choose the science and math textbooks, simply because she does not possess the expertise to do so. It is not a matter of debate, because she readily acknowledges that we have the expertise to choose the best materials for her.

We periodically evaluate the curriculum and solicit her input on which things she likes to work with. I would not have her work with a program she hates, even if it is billed as a good program.

 

She gets to choose her electives; I only make suggestions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Yeah, that looks fine." Have you had a similar experience with your kids? :confused:

 

:lol:

Hmmm, I think you have a typical 13yo boy. My kids do have an interest in what they take and what curriculum they use, but they certainly don't share my enthusiasm. I would never expect them to sit down and have a long discussion on the subject.

 

On the other hand, I ask their opinions on what they take each year. We have discussions about what they want to do. We discuss what it takes academically to reach different life goals. This is not in a "come sit by me" kind of talk, but as we go, in dinner conversation or while we're driving.

 

I also give multiple choice questions regarding curriculum. I like these two options for x subject. Do you prefer one over the other? Which of these textbooks do you like reading better? Things like that. My kids can usually answer these questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently made up a form of ideas for high school.

 

I included required core classes and electives. I also marked whether I will pick the content or if he will get say in how to approach. For instance I'm going to require 1 credit of fine arts, but he'll get say on how that is accomplished. He'll also have 4 years of required science, the first three biology, chemistry, and physics. He can pick the 4th, and he also has had input on how to approach chemistry and biology. I picked the physics book. For English, I will pick the writing materials as that is our most difficult matter, but I may give him options on how to approach literature.

 

I listed out options for electives. I'm willing to custom design several unique classes that will appeal to his interests. But he's going to have to chose those in the spring for the following year. That's how we did it in school.

 

He's 14, an older 8th grade, and never short of an opinion. We've recently discussed chemistry options, reached a compromise with Latin, and looked at several online options for fine arts. He's also expressed opinions on what he'd prefer to leave as a hobby and what he wants to pursue in more academic manner.

 

I'm trying to emphasize (without overwhelming) that high school is a four year package deal. It's not just four individual years. He's also a big picture kind of guy so I need to paint it now, not after the first year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For my DD, the basic requirements are fixed and non-negotiable. We are guided by the educational standards for university bound students in out home country and by the admissions requirements of the most selective universities in the US. There is no debate about this; it is what she considers necessary as well.

She has input in her history and literature studies: she can select works (and rarely opt out of something that was on the list), can choose her topics for her writing assignments, can choose which courses she wants to supplement with TC lectures.

She can also completely determine her daily schedule (with the exception of an outside class) and work on whatever she wants to work on for however long.

She can NOT choose the science and math textbooks, simply because she does not possess the expertise to do so. It is not a matter of debate, because she readily acknowledges that we have the expertise to choose the best materials for her.

We periodically evaluate the curriculum and solicit her input on which things she likes to work with. I would not have her work with a program she hates, even if it is billed as a good program.

 

She gets to choose her electives; I only make suggestions.

 

This describes our philosophy. All curriculum is parent chosen. In literature, we have an approved book list and they must choose the minimum amount of reading from the approved list. There are a few things that are non-negotiable...Shakespeare for one! So, even within the context of making choices for their Great Books Study, they do not have an ultimate choice...just some flexibility.

 

I do not force my children to work with a curriculum that is definitely working poorly for them. But, since we have standards that curriculum must meet, we take input from the child and seek out an alternative that meets our requirements. Our kids have never been given the right to choose a program. All things being equal, if one program and another we were looking at met ALL of our requirements and I could get copies of the student texts at a reasonable price, I would consider presenting both to the child and allow some input in the final decision. Alas, many of our texts are rather expensive and it is not always easy to find them used. So, it's pretty rare for this scenario to occur.

 

Since MIT Opencourseware has a huge variety for coursework offerings that we feel offer the academic challenge our children are capable of, it is not uncommon for us to sit down and go through the course listings, talk about what electives would be useful in their future aspirations, and look at the assignments to determine time committments, etc. Therefore, they do make some choices in this area. But, once we've made a donation to MIT, purchased the required texts, and downloaded the assignments, we make them stick with it. Even if it's a brain bending, dry, boring, text...well, we consider it good preparation for life. Many a college text will be produce a "blech" reaction, but the student won't have a choice. When my dad says to an employee in his business, "You must read this technical manual," he is not kidding and the employee will be wise to complete it even if it is horribly written and terribly dry. Ds was moaning over his Java programming text the other day and my husband's response was, "Consider it a gift. I am giving you the gift of character building. You will thank me some day!" DS was not amused.

 

Latin is non-negotiable, however, we have allowed a lot of leeway in choosing the other foreign language. I think that enthusiasm for and interest in the culture that the language springs from, greatly increases the chances that the child will learn the concepts and retain at least some of the basics of the language even if they do not have an opportunity to use it often. Hence, one ds studying ancient Greek, Egyptian, etc., one ds studying Icelandic (modern day Icelandic is largely unchanged from ancient 13th century Norse), and another who wants to study Hebrew.

 

For the most part, they have a lot of choice amongst extra-curriculars.

 

Faith

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never expected my kids -- all the way through high school -- to take charge of planning their curriculum; we just followed a pretty standard path. On the other hand, if they did have very specific interests, I'd try and incorporate that into our studies. For example, one was very interested in ancient China, so we did a semester-long course on the history of China. One is very interested in writing/journalism, so we are doing a course in journalism now. Also, I let them all choose the foreign language they wanted to study.

 

Within each subject, I'd often tailor assignments to their particular interests, when I could. I have a lot of kids interested in the arts, so we'd often end up doing history projects that had an arts emphasis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Open-ended questions are the death of conversations with teenagers. :lol:

 

In my house the kids do get a fairly decent say in their courses. I do have some non-negotiable requirements and expectations, but I believe that by the time children hit high school, they usually have some kind of idea of their interests and they are ready to begin shaping their own future. As their father it is my job only to guide them to make sure they are not closing off any opportunities, or making a foolish decision due to lack of life experience. For example... in my homeschool, I require Algebra 1 & 2, plus Geometry, plus one additional math credit of their choice. When planning, my dc commented that she dislikes math, doesn't plan on pursuing a math-y field, and would prefer to only take math through Geometry and not do the extra credit. So we researched the entrance requirements for top universities (she wants to go to an Ivy Leaguer or something comparable) and saw that they all want four math credits in high school. She decided to take the extra credit. She's planning on an AoPS course, either Counting & Probability or Number Theory.

 

I agree with elegantlion - I'm trying to emphasize that high school is a "package deal". It's important for dc to understand that so they can plan ahead appropriately.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't mean to imply that my ds got to choose anything he wanted. Obviously, certain subjects were non-negotiable. But, if he could articulate a reason why a particular curriculum was not working for him, I certainly to what he had to say. I used my survey as a means for him being able to better express his thoughts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My daughter had some choice within parameters that I set. So, for example, when we saw that an out of the home Geometry class was not totally successful in 9th grade, we withdrew her. We then gave her the choice of Jacobs' Geometry 2nd or 3rd edition. (She chose the 2nd.) In 9th grade literature, I offered her the choice of Les Miserables (unabridged) or two shorter classics. (She chose Les Miserables as she was a fan of the musical Les Mis.) Starting in 8th grade, I required that she take a foreign language, and she chose Latin from a variety of choices.

 

When she began taking community college classes in 11th grade, I required that she take three quarters of science but she was able to choose from the available courses. Similarly, I required that she take three quarters each of literature and composition in 11th and 12th grades, but I allowed her to choose which of the literature classes she would take. (She chose Latino/a Literature, Survey of World Literature, and Folklore & Mythology.)

 

Also, prior to 12th grade, I allowed her to choose whether to take Calculus (at home with Life of Fred or at the community college) or Statistics (AP level with PA Homeschoolers or Life of Fred). She chose AP Statistics.

 

Regards,

Kareni

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been trying to get my 13yo to talk to me about what he's interested in and what he'd like to learn in high school... He didn't even want to sit down and discuss it... Have you had a similar experience with your kids? :confused:

 

Sounds like my 13 yo son. He's more in denial about growing up and becoming a high schooler. Kind of like hands over ears and saying "nah nah nah nah nah..." His choices are primarily electives, though his first year or so won't have too may of those.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dd has always been involved in her course selection, but much more so now in high school. The next two years will be the transitioning into her choosing her courses and me giving feedback on her choices. When they attend college, they'll be making the decisions on their own, so I think it's good to learn in high school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When they attend college' date=' they'll be making the decisions on their own, so I think it's good to learn in high school.[/quote']

 

In order to have realistic expectations about college freedom, the students should be aware that they will be free to make some decisions about courses, but that, as soon as they have chosen a major, to a large part the specific courses and their sequence will be mandated, at least for the classes that have a direct relation to their chosen field.

I briefly looked through catalog listings for various majors at our school. A typical number is that, of the 128 credits required for a major, two thirds are pretty much mandated, and, because the topics build on each other, the sequence is also mostly prescribed. The remaining one third are electives, but come with various restrictions (such as specific mandatory English and history courses).

The student will also not be involved in the selection of the textbooks; this is done by people who are experts in the respective field.

 

So, while the student will have some freedom, he should not expect to be able to choose the majority of his coursework freely (nor should he expect to be asked whether a particular curriculum suits his taste.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I recently made up a form of ideas for high school.

 

I included required core classes and electives. I also marked whether I will pick the content or if he will get say in how to approach.

 

I listed out options for electives. I'm willing to custom design several unique classes that will appeal to his interests.

 

Do you mind sharing your form? You may pm or email it to me: jibaker0107@gmail.com Thanks!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In order to have realistic expectations about college freedom, the students should be aware that they will be free to make some decisions about courses, but that, as soon as they have chosen a major, to a large part the specific courses and their sequence will be mandated, at least for the classes that have a direct relation to their chosen field.

I briefly looked through catalog listings for various majors at our school. A typical number is that, of the 128 credits required for a major, two thirds are pretty much mandated, and, because the topics build on each other, the sequence is also mostly prescribed. The remaining one third are electives, but come with various restrictions (such as specific mandatory English and history courses).

The student will also not be involved in the selection of the textbooks; this is done by people who are experts in the respective field.

 

So, while the student will have some freedom, he should not expect to be able to choose the majority of his coursework freely (nor should he expect to be asked whether a particular curriculum suits his taste.)

 

Maybe I should have worded that differently. :tongue_smilie: I won't be the one choosing her courses when she graduates high school - she'll do the choosing. If I remember correctly, there's quite a bit of freedom the first year or two, but you're right that their major will decide many courses for them. Hopefully they'll also have a good academic adviser to help them choose wisely as well. And the only control they have over curricula is to look at the required texts each professor uses for a specific course. From what I've seen at cc, they often use the same texts, but in some courses, the professors do vary their materials a bit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you mind sharing your form? You may pm or email it to me: jibaker0107@gmail.com Thanks!

 

It's really nothing special. I used a donnayoung.org column form and wrote in my core required and elective required (at least what I'm categorizing as elective). It's all in pencil.

 

subject - grade(s)

Latin - 9,10

Math- 9-12 and the sequence I want to follow (undecided past alg II)

English - 9-12 (very undecided, but writing every year, lit tied to history)

History - 9-12

Science - 9-12 (we're integrating physics, chem, & bio for the 9-11, 12 will be his choice)

Foreign Lang - Japanese 8-10,

Philosophy - 9

 

required electives currently planned are:

fine art, personal finance, american govern, pe

 

These are core options I told him I'd consider:

World literature, Shakespeare, Short Stories, SciFi Lit, Creative Writing, World Mythology, Arthurian Legends, Psychology, Communication, World Geography, Human Geography, Anthropology, Archaeology, History of Technology, Earth science, Environmental science,topics in sustainability, Adv physics, chem, or bio, probability, statistics,

 

elective type options:

Principles of Drawing, Art history, History of Film, Special Effects, Hiking, Sword fighting (history and technique), Russian, German, Asian art (or Japanese or Chinese focused), Photography, Biking, weight training, principles of painting, Color Theory, Calligraphy & Illuminating, Business studies, Mathematical logic, animation studies, Computer programming, Star Trek & its influence, Electronics, Health, Auto maintenance (might not be optional for a kid that will spend all of his future disposable income on art and electronics :tongue_smilie:).

 

The above are subjects I either already own a book on or would be willing to design or find a class. I want him to think outside the standard box for some classes. I'm hoping he'll come up with some of his own ideas, but many of these are aligned with his interests.

 

My plan is to create some sort of catalog with a brief description of each class and, if I already own the book, have him review it. Then he will get to decide about this time each year what he wants (along with my requirements ;)) to study in the fall. He does much better when he has input in his classes. I'm sure this is overkill, but I like the planning. Even if he doesn't pick some classes I may put them on my future list of self-ed. I'm going to need something productive once he graduates.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My kids get a lot of say about what courses they want to study (not so much in actually planning the actual courses they have decided upon. I decide the hows. ;))

 

That said, at 13 they really don't know much. ;) It is more along the lines of sitting and discussing possible routes they might want to consider over the next 4 yrs. Do they want to study ancient lit or American? What history do they want to study? What foreign language do they want to study (though w/my younger kids that discussion has been in elementary school) But it is not really an open-ended discussion.

 

In 10th grade they really start developing much stronger opinions and have a greater voice in selection. For example, if they decide they want to study world lit, I might offer them several different possible directions that course could take and let them choose.

 

Some of my kids have stronger "self-direction" than others. My 17 yod is a yo-yo. ;) She has changed her mind a zillion times about what she wants to do. She has a much broader liberal arts ed experience than her brothers. While they have met the typical general ed requirements, they have loaded up on math and science. She, OTOH, has branched off more into the philosophy/theology.

 

Our current 10th grader has the strongest views of any of our kids so far. He started designing an independent course in 9th grade he wants to do in 11th. It is a black hole/dark matter study. He has been researching and collecting the materials he wants to use. He has doubled up on science so that he can take astronomy every yr. He has chosen to take Latin all the way through high school even though his foreign lang requirements will be met at the end of this yr. He has completely mapped out what he wants to take and when. But.....w/the exception of the dark matter study, the "hows" behind what he does are still dictated by me (or his outside teachers.)

 

(ETA: Jeepers.....this post is so full of errors that I don't have time to even fix them all. Sorry!)

Edited by 8FillTheHeart
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the responses. I'm glad to see that he's being a fairly typical 13yo. I'll put some of these ideas into practice next time to solicit some more useful information.

 

eta: Btw, I didn't plan on having ds actually plan his coursework. I had just wanted feedback from him on what courses he might want to take within the standard high school requirements. "This is MFW; does it look interesting? Do you want to study earth science or biology next year; here are the two texts I'm looking at. Here is a list of possible options for electives; which one interests you?" I didn't actually think he should be involved in the research process. I will try to be more specific in the future, though. I like the idea of typing up a questionnaire for him to fill in.

Edited by MeganP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...