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History from a Baptist perspective?


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I ask a similar question months ago on the curriculum board and received just a few ideas so I thought I would try here. We are Independent Baptist and I am having a hard time finding something to use for history. Most Christian history I see is written from a reformed (Protestant) POV. As Baptist our history is different. I am looking for something that will present it from a Baptist perspective. I do not want to cut out any other information just to include ours. If you are Baptist and have found a curriculum that you feel teaches the kiddos a complete view of history can you please share.

 

(Please no debates. This is simply to gain ideas.)

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Does Abeka present the Baptist history along with their world history courses? I guess I need to get a copy and see for myself. We recently used their 8th grade American and I was disappointed to see that there was very little mention of the struggle Baptist faced in the establishing of this country.

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How funny, I think most homeschool material is written from a Baptist POV, and I had to search out Reformed materials. :lol: (We're Reformed folks happily attending a Southern Baptist church, so I use both.) In classical circles, you will of course find more Reformed materials, though.

 

You have A Beka, BJU, Landmark, Alpha Omega, ACE, etc.

 

For specifically Baptist history, a quick google brings up this page: Baptist history curriculum.

 

I have had a lot of luck going straight to the publishers affiliated with our denomination and then using their materials written for adults, too.

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BJU not Baptist enough for you? I kid, sort of. But that is what my IFB high school used.

 

Terri

 

Actually I am not sure. I haven't looked at the books first hand which is probably what I need to do, but I have heard conflicting opinions about them. I have been told that they are more worried about broadening there target audience and are written more from a non-denominational POV. there is a big difference between Baptist and Non- denominational. I have also told there material has alot of hidden hate messages against other religions. While there is a long history between baptist and other religions I do not want my children to think that gives us a reason to be hateful towards another. Make sense? Oh, how much I would pay for a Baptist to just write this for me. Well not really sense I'm broke but it would make life easier

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Actually I am not sure. I haven't looked at the books first hand which is probably what I need to do, but I have heard conflicting opinions about them. I have been told that they are more worried about broadening there target audience and are written more from a non-denominational POV. there is a big difference between Baptist and Non- denominational. I have also told there material has alot of hidden hate messages against other religions. While there is a long history between baptist and other religions I do not want my children to think that gives us a reason to be hateful towards another. Make sense? Oh, how much I would pay for a Baptist to just write this for me. Well not really sense I'm broke but it would make life easier

 

I have noticed some slight anti-catholic tones in the ABeka materials. I also notice a "oh, my, isn't it so bad that the rest of the world cannot be like us." sort of condescending attitude. That could be my own bias, since I have had a bad experience with the college that produces the materials, so I may be reading stuff into the books that they do not intend. I also see a America=good, rest of the world=bad or at least inferior type undercurrent. I love my country as much as anyone else, but we are NOT perfect and we can learn from other nations as well!

 

I have discussed this extensively with my dd. Basically the two of us came to the point in our discussion where we said that sitting in a catholic church on a sunday does not make you a "sinner" any more than sitting in a Baptist church makes you a "christian." Many many people (my family included) attend churches because of bazillions of reasons besides doctrines. As long as anyone trusts in Jesus as their savior and tries to serve Him with their whole hearts, it doesn't matter if their pastor wears a suit and tie or a robe. KWIM? I came to this conclusion after years of watching hundreds of faithful Baptists live like they;re not Christians throughout the week.

 

It is hard to find a program that matches everyone's unique quirks as to what they want in a curriculum.

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Believe it or not, I totally agree with you. This is more about me wanting to teach my children our historic background and the struggles our religion has faced. I do not have an opinion about any other religion. How could I? This is a personal relationship between the believer and God. And yes, I also agree that Abeka is very "Patriotic" not sure how to address that given the current and changed shape of our nation. Thanks for the comments.

 

I have noticed some slight anti-catholic tones in the ABeka materials. I also notice a "oh, my, isn't it so bad that the rest of the world cannot be like us." sort of condescending attitude. That could be my own bias, since I have had a bad experience with the college that produces the materials, so I may be reading stuff into the books that they do not intend. I also see a America=good, rest of the world=bad or at least inferior type undercurrent. I love my country as much as anyone else, but we are NOT perfect and we can learn from other nations as well!

 

I have discussed this extensively with my dd. Basically the two of us came to the point in our discussion where we said that sitting in a catholic church on a sunday does not make you a "sinner" any more than sitting in a Baptist church makes you a "christian." Many many people (my family included) attend churches because of bazillions of reasons besides doctrines. As long as anyone trusts in Jesus as their savior and tries to serve Him with their whole hearts, it doesn't matter if their pastor wears a suit and tie or a robe. KWIM? I came to this conclusion after years of watching hundreds of faithful Baptists live like they;re not Christians throughout the week.

 

It is hard to find a program that matches everyone's unique quirks as to what they want in a curriculum.

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I am going to look into this again. I started to and was turned off by others saying that there were alot of errors in the curriculum. I also do not like the read this fill in the blank approach but if the facts are right I guess I will have to use the readings as our spine and just build our program around that. Thanks for the thought.

 

 

Like Renee said, Landmark is Independent Baptist, and I believe they teach history completely from a Baptist viewpoint.

 

They also have a course about Baptist history:

 

http://www.landmarklfbc.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_6&products_id=52

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Well, I am a Baptist.. I'm not sure what an indepedent Baptist is.. I thought all Baptists were rather independent, but I grew up a Methodist. Anyway, I have enjoyed TOG. To me, the perspective gives you several different point of view. I think it is reformed, but they give alternate viewpoints as well. I particularly liked the way they presented the Creation. They brought up the different meanings of the word day and the way people interpreted it for old and new earth.. I've enjoyed using it and haven't had a problem with it. Plus, when you get to year 4. The topic for the last quarter is for them to investigate their own religion. They use Packard's Theology, I think, and write down for instance about communion and what that belief entails: ( does it really turn into the body, grape juice/wine, etc. They write what their denomination believes. Then they go and meet with the pastor and interview them about what the denomination believes. Ours gave us some great books to read. They type up their interview. It was a GREAT project!!

 

You know, you might just go on the TOG website and look up the links to church history for year 4 unit 4... You might get some ideas there for something like that you can do on your own.

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Might I suggest that it isn't "history from a Baptist perspective" that will fill the bill, but the History of the Baptists? Layer it in to a broader history. Just a thought.

:iagree: I do that (for myself) with all sorts of subjects (history of science, music, art, etc.) - you can go as specific as you want (history of religion, history of Christianity, history of Lutherans, history of the reformation, history of American Lutherans, history of American Lutherans from 1650-1800, etc ;)). I like to find biographies of key people, too.

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I have also told there material has alot of hidden hate messages against other religions. While there is a long history between baptist and other religions I do not want my children to think that gives us a reason to be hateful towards another.

 

Now see, having grown up in an IFB church and having spent ten years in their school, I thought "IFB Baptist" was code for "history about how evil Catholics are." Glad to hear that is not the case for you.

 

Well, I am a Baptist.. I'm not sure what an indepedent Baptist is.. I thought all Baptists were rather independent,

 

Clearly you did not spend your formative years in an IFB church. If you had, you would know full well the evils of the Southern Baptist Convention. They might as well be Catholic.

 

Clearly, the OP is not "one of those," but man oh man, I spent plenty of years with people who were.

 

Terri

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There is a difference between Independent Baptist and Independent Fundamental Baptist. The later tend to be way over the top in the single mindedness. That is their right and I have no problem with how they choose to believe. we on the other hand have a hard time figuring out how to love one another and hate each other at the same time.

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I didn't want to study with anyone at the church or learn much about Baptist doctrine or history yet, as I want to be sure to be baptized as a Christian, not into a church or denomination, but I am interested in the Non-Protestant Baptist history and plan to ask the pastor about it a little later. I will report back.

Now see, having grown up in an IFB church and having spent ten years in their school, I thought "IFB Baptist" was code for "history about how evil Catholics are." Glad to hear that is not the case for you.

 

 

 

Clearly you did not spend your formative years in an IFB church. If you had, you would know full well the evils of the Southern Baptist Convention. They might as well be Catholic.

 

Clearly, the OP is not "one of those," but man oh man, I spent plenty of years with people who were.

 

Terri

I am currently attending an Independent Baptist Church (a Baptist Church that is not part of the SBC or some other organization).

 

This is NOT the same as an Independent Fundamental Baptist church.

Edited by Lovedtodeath
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Actually I am not sure. I haven't looked at the books first hand which is probably what I need to do, but I have heard conflicting opinions about them. I have been told that they are more worried about broadening there target audience and are written more from a non-denominational POV. there is a big difference between Baptist and Non- denominational. I have also told there material has alot of hidden hate messages against other religions. While there is a long history between baptist and other religions I do not want my children to think that gives us a reason to be hateful towards another. Make sense? Oh, how much I would pay for a Baptist to just write this for me. Well not really sense I'm broke but it would make life easier

 

BJU attracts a lot of negative press. I think "hidden hate message" is code for giving their own viewpoint, and that would be the opposite of being more non-denominational. I actually think "hidden hate message" is hilarious: its like the Emperor's new clothes; you can only see it if you are super smart about religion, so you better not use anything except what *we* approve, because we alone can see the hidden messages. I've heard all that before. It's the opposite of most people's problem with BJU (that they come right out and say what they dislike or disagree with.) None of my Catholic friends will use BJU, but its based on things BJ himself said, not the curriculum. :D

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For really good sources, I'd check out a Baptist seminary bookstore.

 

Since it is Protestant, Baptist history does begin at the Reformation and is essentially Reformed in its roots. Anabaptists were early though and diverged from Lutherans and Presbyterians.

 

The Arminian theological orientation of current Baptist culture and teaching (and most broadly evangelical protestant churches) in America is only about 150 years old. Before that, they were all reformed in their soteriology and their doctrine of God. Variations on their covenantal views ( infant v. believers' baptism) and of the Lord's Supper and church polity and ecclesiology, but all on one page with regard to the sovereignty of God and who does what in salvation.

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Non-Protestant Baptist
:confused:

 

There is no such thing. All of Christendom can be divided historically into three major branches: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant.

 

Okay, many Anglicans try very hard to walk a fine line between RC and Protestant and it may depend on which one you read or hear as to how they come across. This is because of the political nature of the creation of the Church of England. Read up on Henry VIII if it interests you.

 

But all other Christian denominations: Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Brethren, Church of Christ, Assembly of God, non-denominational etc. are Protestant and had their origins in the Protestant Reformation.

Edited by ScoutTN
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:confused:

 

There is no such thing. All of Christendom can be divided historically into three major branches: Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant.

 

Okay, many Anglicans try very hard to walk a fine line between RC and Protestant and it may depend on which one you read or hear as to how they come across. This is because of the political nature of the creation of the Church of England. Read up on Henry VIII if it interests you.

 

But all other Christian denominations: Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Brethren, Church of Christ, Assembly of God, non-denominational etc. are Protestant and had their origins in the Protestant Reformation.

 

 

While I appreciate your views this is not how everyone sees it. In AD 313 when the Roman emperor Constantine merged Christianity with the Roman government (basically the beginning of the Catholic church) there were a few churches that refused to join these. Yes they were know my different names (such as Ana-Baptist, Paulicans, etc.) but were never part of the Roman Catholic church. Baptist were part of this. Even once the Reformation happened and once it reached the shores of America, Baptist was still a separate body. This was about the time period the name was changed to Baptist.This is why our church fathers were persecuted for years before and during the Dark Ages and in America when the Reformed churches were settling.Yes you are correct there are some Reformed-Baptist although we kind of view this as an oxymoron. There are different views of history and how and even when it happened. These are our beliefs and this is why I was hoping to find a source that presented history as a whole including the Baptist history.

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Is this the Landmarkist/Trail of Blood view of the history of the church? That the entire church fell away except a remnant that persisted? That the church can be traced back to its true roots via the path of this remnant?

 

If not, stop reading now, and let me know what version of history this is that is not Landmarkism.

 

If so, it would also be interesting to note that that the remnant's trail back to the original church passes through the Donatists, Novationists, and Montanists, all of which have little in common except opposition to the church that is identified as Roman Catholic (which it was not at the time--it was The Church. Period.)

 

The Donatists argued for the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

Th Novationists had their own Bishop of Rome (thereby endorsing a church hierarchy).

The Montanists argued that their founder, Montanus, was the promised Comforter from Christ.

 

None of these matches Baptist doctrine today...so it is hard for me to see how one can make the claim of a "faithful" remnant--which time was faithful? Then or now?. And at any rate, why would one *want* to tie back to the Apostles, when they were failures in conveying the "true faith" to the next generation? It's difficult to persist in a failed message.

 

It will be hard to find a "general history" that ties all these things in...which is why I suggested a specific history that you can layer in to a general history, to teach your kids about your own denomination.

Yes, it is. You've mentioned a portion of what I've written elsewhere on the subject. I will simply state that the view is based on very poor scholarship and leaps to make connections where there are none.

 

To the OP, you will not find any curricula that teaches this as part of the curricula. However, you will find plenty on each of these groups in many general Church History books (regardless of their leanings), both their strengths and their failings. It makes for an interesting study (yep, been there).

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I knew better than to respond to the last post! I understand that we all have different views and opinions and I have tried and am trying to respect those of others. This is why I battled over if I should ask this questions here. I am simply looking for suggestions for something to use. I do not need to be educated, I have plenty. I do not need to be told we are wrong because I don't think we are. If you do not have a suggestion for something I might be able to use, please do not comment. I do not want to debate. You have your thoughts and beliefs and I have mine. Who knows who is right? As long as we are secure in ourselves all is well. Thank you again for your opinions.

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I knew better than to respond to the last post! I understand that we all have different views and opinions and I have tried and am trying to respect those of others. This is why I battled over if I should ask this questions here. I am simply looking for suggestions for something to use. I do not need to be educated, I have plenty. I do not need to be told we are wrong because I don't think we are. If you do not have a suggestion for something I might be able to use, please do not comment. I do not want to debate. You have your thoughts and beliefs and I have mine. Who knows who is right? As long as we are secure in ourselves all is well. Thank you again for your opinions.

I wrote a response to 29 and then didn't submit it. :grouphug:

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I knew better than to respond to the last post! I understand that we all have different views and opinions and I have tried and am trying to respect those of others. This is why I battled over if I should ask this questions here. I am simply looking for suggestions for something to use. I do not need to be educated, I have plenty. I do not need to be told we are wrong because I don't think we are. If you do not have a suggestion for something I might be able to use, please do not comment. I do not want to debate. You have your thoughts and beliefs and I have mine. Who knows who is right? As long as we are secure in ourselves all is well. Thank you again for your opinions.

 

 

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug: While I agree that you probably didn't post with the intention of a debate, the facts of history are not really open to theological interpretation. It's pretty verifiable (not always, but it is in this case). There are original sources that show what actually happened at the time, even if some want to debate that at a late point in time. These original resources show there was one, united church at the time you are referencing. I've yet to see original, historical sources written, from that time period, that show there was a Baptist thread in the church from before 1500 AD or so. Would love to see some if you have them, though (ones that show this thread of Christianity followed a pure path through history)!! That's the point I think that was being made -- if you want to study history accurately, you have to study it objectively (not with theological "bent").

Edited by milovaný
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Now see, having grown up in an IFB church and having spent ten years in their school, I thought "IFB Baptist" was code for "history about how evil Catholics are." Glad to hear that is not the case for you.

 

 

Clearly you did not spend your formative years in an IFB church. If you had, you would know full well the evils of the Southern Baptist Convention. They might as well be Catholic.

 

 

Actually, the beauty of IFB is that every church is different. It is a conglomeration of churches, each of which is independent, that band together to support common missionaries. I have gone to three IFB churches (maybe 4. Not sure about 1) and all were different. Only one thought Catholics were evil. They also thought the Baptist church across the street was evil, etc. Basically, they were the only church that taught the Truth. And it turns out the pastor was doing icky stuff. I don't know why I stayed there as long as I did (though I made dear friends I would not have had otherwise so its hard to completely repent of my time there)

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All I know is that Pastor said that Baptists are not Protestants. They do not/did not protest the Catholic Church. That doesn't seem like a bad thing. When I say non-denominational, I mean accepting of all (as long as the denomination is Christian)... not rejecting of all.

 

No one is going to use their version of history to hoodwink me into their doctrine. I am non-denominational and intend to stay that way, choosing the Holy Spirit as my teacher instead of accepting the teachings that come from one source, or group of men. If the church I attend has a problem with that, then I will no longer attend.

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All I know is that Pastor said that Baptists are not Protestants. They do not/did not protest the Catholic Church. That doesn't seem like a bad thing. When I say non-denominational, I mean accepting of all (as long as the denomination is Christian)... not rejecting of all.

 

No one is going to use their version of history to hoodwink me into their doctrine. I am non-denominational and intend to stay that way, choosing the Holy Spirit as my teacher instead of accepting the teachings that come from one source, or group of men. If the church I attend has a problem with that, then I will no longer attend.

 

Bravo!! Well said!

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All I know is that Pastor said that Baptists are not Protestants. They do not/did not protest the Catholic Church. That doesn't seem like a bad thing. When I say non-denominational, I mean accepting of all (as long as the denomination is Christian)... not rejecting of all.

 

No one is going to use their version of history to hoodwink me into their doctrine. I am non-denominational and intend to stay that way, choosing the Holy Spirit as my teacher instead of accepting the teachings that come from one source, or group of men. If the church I attend has a problem with that, then I will no longer attend.

 

Oh, gosh, "hoodwinked"? Forgive me if I offended! We disagree with a few things when it comes to the Christian faith, I know, but I'm not trying to hoodwink anyone, Carmen. I think it's more "hoodwinkish" when someone tries to rewrite history to suit theological preferences, but hey! I think we DO agree on the doctrine of free will ;), and you are free to follow that course if you'd like. I have been non-denominational, I have been Baptist, I have been Charismatic, I have been Presbyterian, I have been Vineyard and Christian and Missionary Alliance and home-churched/age integrated and Foursquare. None of these addressed church history from an honest perspective (if they approached it at all, which most didn't). I realize church history doesn't matter to some people, and that's fine. But it did come to matter to us, and there is a church history one can follow from the beginning, and know. We don't sit at a point in time 2000 years removed and try to decide what we think happened by going back through time, using a theological filter that we're comfortable with, you know? History doesn't work that way. I got a lot of my conviction about this, by the way, right here at WTM when even non-Christians would say, "An objective look at history shows that either the Catholic church or the Orthodox church are the only two with any kind of serious, valid claim to being the original church." I read that over and over, so took a look. I honestly don't believe you have to agree, nor am I trying to get you to -- but please don't use words like "hoodwinked."

Edited by milovaný
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Oh the whole reformed/not reformed thing bugs me...in my book, you're either Christian or you're not...leave all the nuances up for when we get to Heaven....maybe then it'll be relevant.

 

I appreciate your affinity for teaching your denomination's history..perhaps your pastor might be a good starting point? I think finding one curricula that will satisfy your needs may be difficult. I never look if they are reformed/anti-Catholic/etc. I just look to see how they have treated history...we have used Christian Liberty Press, Story of the World, Dorling Kindersley publications, LOVE H.E. Marshall history books (although when I come across words like 'savages' and such I just insert natives)...as long as they are reporting history...I can navigate my way through. If I pick up on a slant, I stop and explain that slant to my children...I explain why some are anti/pro one ideology over another...but none of that separates me from who my heavenly Father is and what is required of me or them to receive salvation....I just want them to garner as much as they can from history...from both sides...white man's history is much different than native American history....somewhere in there lies the truth..but I view all of history as God's history..His Hand is in all of it...

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To the OP, not sure if this is what you're looking for, but...

 

This Day in Baptist History by David L. Cummins is very interesting. It is not a curriculum. It's actually more like a devotional. There is a short reading for each day of the year and it covers what happened on that same day (different year, obviously) in Baptist history. It could certainly be used to supplement a history curriculum.

 

There are actually three volumes of this. The author has done extensive research into Baptist (Anabaptist) history. I believe he used a lot of source documents in his research. It is a very interesting topic.

 

Also, I'm sure you could contact him for some more information, resources and/or recommendations. I've actually met him. This (Baptist history) seemed to be a passion which he very willingly shared about. He was a very approachable.

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To the OP, not sure if this is what you're looking for, but...

 

This Day in Baptist History by David L. Cummins is very interesting. It is not a curriculum. It's actually more like a devotional. There is a short reading for each day of the year and it covers what happened on that same day (different year, obviously) in Baptist history. It could certainly be used to supplement a history curriculum.

 

There are actually three volumes of this. The author has done extensive research into Baptist (Anabaptist) history. I believe he used a lot of source documents in his research. It is a very interesting topic.

 

Also, I'm sure you could contact him for some more information, resources and/or recommendations. I've actually met him. This (Baptist history) seemed to be a passion which he very willingly shared about. He was a very approachable.

 

Thank you this looks very promising.

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I knew better than to respond to the last post!

I was responding to PJ. I know you don't believe you need to be educated. I wasn't debating...I was addressing the facts of what the Trail of Blood is (remember, my husband and myself were both raised Baptist, come from a long line of Baptists, and my FIL was a Baptist pastor). You also publicly threw Constantine under the bus and negated the existence of Eastern Christianity...you have to understand that, to present such as fact, will lead some to defend.

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I didn't read anything but a sentence from two posts each. I am having a very busy week.

 

Milovany, I didn't mean that you, the Orthodox church, or anyone in the Orthodox church was trying to hoodwink me at all. I was saying that I will not allow a Baptist church to hoodwink me, so don't worry about me, hon.

 

:grouphug: I didn't read the rest of your post yet.

 

I will be emptying my PMs now. :D

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Milovany, I didn't mean that you, the Orthodox church, or anyone in the Orthodox church was trying to hoodwink me at all. I was saying that I will not allow a Baptist church to hoodwink me, so don't worry about me, hon.

 

Oh, um, good, well, then, um ... carry on! And forgive me. I think that's twice that I've done that now. I'll go hide in a corner.

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Oh, um, good, well, then, um ... carry on! And forgive me. I think that's twice that I've done that now. I'll go hide in a corner.

:grouphug: No need. It is completely my fault for not being more clear, and you aren't the only one that misunderstands me, I have that problem often because of the way I express myself (not clearly). I am sorry you were mixed up in my mistake again. Edited by Lovedtodeath
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