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Thanks to Derek and 8Fill for answering about MUS. I spent some time over there last night and I LOVE love love it! I think it is just what dd needs-his explanations and the visuals are excellent and perfect for her.

 

Derek, I did look at the S+S for MUS Pre-Alg and I think it is a must-do for us. Quite a bit of it will be review but I think it will reinforce it all to see it from his angle. I loved on the sample how he explained the signs for multiplying negative numbers-this is exactly the kind of thing dd needs.

 

I have to figure out the timing because I'd like her to do BOTH MUS Pre-Alg and MUS Alg as her Pre-Alg. I think we can work through the Pre-Alg rather quickly since the concepts are mainly review, but I do want her to see how he presents it to crystallize it all in her mind. I hope to find it really really cheap though because we will telescope through the concepts she is solid on.

Edited by HappyGrace
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I would personally never use MUS alg as an alg course.

 

But you do feel it is a complete and thorough pre-algebra course, right?

 

I know you said they go into algebra well-prepared from it, so I guess I'm more specifically asking if it covers all of what other pre-algebra courses cover.

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But you do feel it is a complete and thorough pre-algebra course, right?

 

I know you said they go into algebra well-prepared from it, so I guess I'm more specifically asking if it covers all of what other pre-algebra courses cover.

 

I have never taught a pre-alg course. When my kids have mastered elementary math, they have moved into MUS's alg. My kids have all done very well in high school math and college math, so it is an approach that has served them well.

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I just wanted to add some info from a friend. Her kids did SM until 6th. Then they did a year using TOPS Science "Math Lab" and "Probability". From that one went on to NEM, one used what she called a 'standard high school algebra text" and another only used LOF algebra. All did just fine in algebra going from SM to TOPS.

 

I also wanted to let you know that MEP has a 'Secondary Stage' that covers UK school years 7, 8, & 9. It isn't MEP in methodology, but it is worth checking out. I think it has many units that are worth pulling out and using as a supplement to any pre-algebra program. It may be that across the three years there is enough to create one's own pre-algebra program, I don't know. If someone thought there was, I would love to see it.

 

http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/projects/mep/default.htm

 

My son especially enjoys the 'interactive' material. it is the same program, just online. We are cherry picking sections from all three years and calling it 6th grade logic.

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It was just the right level of challenge for her. But this is not my mathy kid - she would have spent all day crying with AoPS or DM.

 

And everything looks simple after AoPS. Except the DM workbook. :tongue_smilie:

 

Interesting. This would be for my older, who IS a mathy kid, but he will only be just 10 when he begins. I wonder if it's the right choice.

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I also want to point out that the lovely and talented hive member (don't know her name) who created Guest Hollow has posted a pre-algebra schedule for her son. It uses lots of materials and has a spine of Holt Mathematics Course 2. It is worth checking out. I am seriously consider it for 7th grade.

 

I am also thinking I will add in the Key to books.

 

What I really, really want is to find a solid DVD based high school math program. My math shortcomings are legion and I think I need to outsource. I am afraid I will totally screw it up. Or, it has to be a good program made for homeschoolers with a teacher's book that will hold my hand. I don't think Lial's, Dolciani or Singapore DM have that. OTOH, my kid seems oddly competent at math so far. We are going through SM 6 and LOF pre-algebra 1 right on schedule. But, I think I am almost out of my depth. Someone suggested Saxon with the Art Reed DVDs

 

Ack! thread hijack! Sorry. I let my insecurities get the best of me.

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Math Without Borders uses Foerster texts for Algebra 1 and 2

 

I personally wasn't very impressed w/ Mw/oB. Foerster's explanations in the text are very thorough. The cds don't really do anything more than have a voice stating pretty much exactly what is in the text (and in some cases the text actually states it more clearly.)

 

If I had a child that was more of an auditory learner and struggled w/reading comprehension, then Mw/oB would be worth it.

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I have never taught a pre-alg course. When my kids have mastered elementary math, they have moved into MUS's alg. My kids have all done very well in high school math and college math, so it is an approach that has served them well.

 

Did you use only MUS algebra and then move to geometry and Algebra 2? I have a vague memory that you said that after MUS algebra 1 you moved to a different (and more difficult) algebra 1 course.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

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...

What I really, really want is to find a solid DVD based high school math program. My math shortcomings are legion and I think I need to outsource. I am afraid I will totally screw it up. Or, it has to be a good program made for homeschoolers with a teacher's book that will hold my hand. I don't think Lial's, Dolciani or Singapore DM have that. OTOH, my kid seems oddly competent at math so far. We are going through SM 6 and LOF pre-algebra 1 right on schedule. But, I think I am almost out of my depth. Someone suggested Saxon with the Art Reed DVDs

 

Ack! thread hijack! Sorry. I let my insecurities get the best of me.

 

 

I think you are right on topic with the rest of us looking for similar things. Pre-A is really just the beginning of this secondary math journey. While some feel comfortable doing all the lecturing in these subjects themselves others prefer to have some assistance. For our family we enjoy MUS lectures which supplement the text. So we are looking for similar secondary supplimental lectures in unison with the better books. So far I am considering:

 

As things go for most families on this board there is never a one size or approach which fits all. So its nice to have variety for those who want more than simply textbooks. Even EoPS uses some online math video supplementals.

Edited by dereksurfs
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I don't think Lial's, Dolciani or Singapore DM have that.

 

Lial's has DVTs available for all its books. Although I have to say I've never needed them.

 

I also originally thought I'd buy the Math without Borders CDs for my dd who's using Foersters too. But she's doing fine with just the book, so I'm glad I held off.

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Did you use only MUS algebra and then move to geometry and Algebra 2? I have a vague memory that you said that after MUS algebra 1 you moved to a different (and more difficult) algebra 1 course.

 

Thanks,

 

Ruth in NZ

 

They definitely moved into another alg text (Foerster: I didn't know about AoPS with my older kids when they hit alg) as well as an additional yr of geometry (I have taught three different geo programs: Jacob's 2nd ed--my kids detest the wordiness of Jacobs. Ds begged me to put him out of his misery the yr I used it! Larson--pretty standard high school geo text; and Geometry,( by Daniel Alexander and Geralyn Koeberlein (Houghton Mifflin Company)) The 3rd is the one I am planning on staying w/ unless one of my younger ones is up for the challenge of AoPS's geo. )

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any thoughts on the prentis hall series, as recommended on Math Mammoth's site? I like the pictoral presentations with blocks, and there are videos and supplements on the website. (on my internet phone so sorry for lack of punctuatuon and no links to back me up).

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If you buy Chalkdust from the publisher instead of CD you are purchasing the Aufmann Prealgebra 5e book, Solutions Manual, and DVD's. You can then submit for the teacher materials on CengageBrain, and your child can open a student account. The Teacher account gives you the varying scopes and sequence (including which problems to complete), depending on basic, average, and advanced students as well as all the answers to every problem in the book worked out, not just answers. The student side gives a database of quizzes that the child can complete to review for each chapter with the option of breaking each problem down into steps and checking each step. I find it to be a homeschool friendly as any of the other programs.

 

My DD loves AoPS but we continue to pull problems from the Aufmann book and Jacobs Algebra whenever I feel she needs extra practice.

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any thoughts on the prentis hall series, as recommended on Math Mammoth's site? I like the pictoral presentations with blocks, and there are videos and supplements on the website. (on my internet phone so sorry for lack of punctuatuon and no links to back me up).

 

Eh, it looks ok, though I don't care much for the layout - too many small blurbs of color - or the organization. Many of the middle schools around here use this, including a private one that dd might attend next year, so I bought a used copy of the prealgebra (2007).

 

You can see the organization on the page with the free quizzes for each lesson and chapter tests (and videos, though I've never viewed them).

 

I'll attach a couple examples of the layout. There tend to be colorful sidebars.

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Eh, it looks ok, though I don't care much for the layout - too many small blurbs of color - or the organization. Many of the middle schools around here use this, including a private one that dd might attend next year, so I bought a used copy of the prealgebra (2007).

 

You can see the organization on the page with the free quizzes for each lesson and chapter tests (and videos, though I've never viewed them).

 

I'll attach a couple examples of the layout. There tend to be colorful sidebars.

 

Well, I won't be buying that one, at least. :tongue_smilie:

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Eh, it looks ok, though I don't care much for the layout - too many small blurbs of color - or the organization. Many of the middle schools around here use this, including a private one that dd might attend next year, so I bought a used copy of the prealgebra (2007).

 

It seems like all the middle school texts use the same darn layout. This looks just like PH Science Explorer, which looks just like Language Arts and Spanish middle school texts I've seen. Busy, overly colorful, and most I've seen also have large random pictures of random happy middle schoolers, often doing nothing related to the subject at hand. Look, this book is for you. Kids like you like this book.

 

I'll attach a couple examples of the layout. There tend to be colorful sidebars.

 

I hate colorful sidebars. :glare:

 

Which is probably why I like AoPS and Foersters. Not much color, no sidebars.

 

Even in Lial's, the color is used to do things like highlight negative numbers or show a math concept. The yellow sidebars bugged me at first, but they're not to read, they're to do sample problems in after you've read the explanation - once I got the hang of that, they didn't bug me as much.

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I don't like busy, pointless layouts, either. I'm looking for clear math (I hate wordy conversational math just as much as busy pictures). I'm looking for "here's why" (I did not like MUS's sample explanation of multiplying negative numbers and felt that explanation danced around "why"). And I want pictures that help explain the why. I must confess, so far I'm not finding anything that meets that criteria for me. There are many options like this for elementary math, but nothing like it for upper math. Got anything like what I describe?

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Interesting. This would be for my older, who IS a mathy kid, but he will only be just 10 when he begins. I wonder if it's the right choice.

 

I am using Lia's Pre-Algebra with dd10 who didn't like APoS. She likes Lial's much better. Everyone talks about the text being too busy, but we haven't had a problem. I love that the pages of problem sets have lots of white space. It makes it easier for her to work through.

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I don't like busy, pointless layouts, either. I'm looking for clear math (I hate wordy conversational math just as much as busy pictures). I'm looking for "here's why" (I did not like MUS's sample explanation of multiplying negative numbers and felt that explanation danced around "why"). And I want pictures that help explain the why. I must confess, so far I'm not finding anything that meets that criteria for me. There are many options like this for elementary math, but nothing like it for upper math. Got anything like what I describe?

 

Take a look at Lial's or Dolciani. Lial's has a lot of step by step explanations-very, very clear.

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Is there a sample of Lial's anywhere? I've never seen it.

 

Click here and then click "preview this book online" on the right (not "take a closer look", although that's interesting too). The you can click "Take a look" which is right above the image of the book.

 

You get to see the first chapter, which will help give you a sense of how it's laid out, at least.

 

ETA: This might bring you right ther.e

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Is there a sample of Lial's anywhere? I've never seen it.

 

Halycon is supposed to post some this weekend. :toetap05:

 

:D

 

You can see an overview at the publisher's website, but not a good individual sample of one particular book (at least that I could find). I really like the publishers that throw the whole book up there to flip through!

 

ETA: The next day, I see the post halcyon made as I was making mine. Whoops! Now I see the inside of the Lial's book! How did I miss that the million times I've tried before?

Edited by boscopup
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Click here and then click "preview this book online" on the right (not "take a closer look", although that's interesting too). The you can click "Take a look" which is right above the image of the book.

 

You get to see the first chapter, which will help give you a sense of how it's laid out, at least.

 

ETA: This might bring you right ther.e

 

It's a bit too late for me to ask this question about font size.

 

Lial's font size, just from this sample looks larger than Dolciani's Algebra 2. I'm still waiting for Dolciani's Pre-A. In fact, I can't believe I jumped the gun on ordering Algebra 2, Algebra 1, and Pre-A (all Dolciani) without first asking the hive, as I usually do. DD will be starting Pre-A and Algebra young, and even though a solid math book is important, I still need to consider white space/font size. I'm so mad at myself.

 

So, with Henle, we do it orally and DD rarely ever looks at the book. Henle works too well for us for me to change books and we've managed to work around font size.

 

I know I can wait for the mail carrier, but please tell me Dolciani's Pre-A's font size is larger than the subsequent books. If not, then Lial's? AOPS Pre-A's font looks, well friendly, but is it because of the pdf version? I know it's wordy, but there doesn't seem to be that much on each page. Given DD's age and personality, I don't think AOPS Pre-A could work for us.

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I know I can wait for the mail carrier, but please tell me Dolciani's Pre-A's font size is larger than the subsequent books. If not, then Lial's? AOPS Pre-A's font looks, well friendly, but is it because of the pdf version? I know it's wordy, but there doesn't seem to be that much on each page. Given DD's age and personality, I don't think AOPS Pre-A could work for us.

 

AoPS Pre-A font is the same in the book itself as in the sample PDF, as far as I can tell. I'm very happy with the font style as well as size.

 

Dolciani Pre-A also has a clear font style and I'm satisfied with the size. The letters look like they might be a smitch smaller than AoPS (as in, perhaps one point), but it's hard to tell for sure - it's possible they're the same. It looks as though there may be more space between lines in AoPS (which is a good thing, being so wordy and all).

 

Lial's Pre-A font appears to be very close to the font of Dolciani Pre-A. The Lial's pages are layed out a bit differently, with more blank space between problems, but with a little more colored clutter.

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AoPS Pre-A font is the same in the book itself as in the sample PDF, as far as I can tell. I'm very happy with the font style as well as size.

 

Dolciani Pre-A also has a clear font style and I'm satisfied with the size. The letters look like they might be a smitch smaller than AoPS (as in, perhaps one point), but it's hard to tell for sure - it's possible they're the same. It looks as though there may be more space between lines in AoPS (which is a good thing, being so wordy and all).

 

Lial's Pre-A font appears to be very close to the font of Dolciani Pre-A. The Lial's pages are layed out a bit differently, with more blank space between problems, but with a little more colored clutter.

 

Thanks Wapiti! You're always here to answer my font questions. :D It makes sense that the font of a Pre-A book should be larger since it would be aimed at a younger audience. I'm going to have to order Lial's Pre-A just to let DD take a look. Maybe the hand-holding will trump the color clutter.

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Sarah, Have you looked at Dolciani and Singapore DM? What do think about those?

 

Dolciani looks OK, Lial looks OK - I like picture explanations, and so far from what I see, Dolciani, Lial, and Prentice Hall all have picture explanations (I like pictures! lol). I love the layout from the cbd.com samples of Singapore's Discovering Mathematics - very simple, few pictures, lots of white space and larger font. However, I'm terrified of DM based upon what people say (I am not a math-smart person, hence my extensive search for the perfect math program).

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Dolciani looks OK, Lial looks OK - I like picture explanations, and so far from what I see, Dolciani, Lial, and Prentice Hall all have picture explanations (I like pictures! lol). I love the layout from the cbd.com samples of Singapore's Discovering Mathematics - very simple, few pictures, lots of white space and larger font. However, I'm terrified of DM based upon what people say (I am not a math-smart person, hence my extensive search for the perfect math program).

 

 

I've been avoiding looking at DM. And avoiding all threads that even discuss DM. But of course, I had to look.

 

And of course, it looks good. Very good.

 

What/who/what age is DM geared towards?

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I have one doing Algebra 1 right now (Foerster's). I think we may do at least 6 more months (if not another year) in Algebra 1. I have LoF and AoPS for year 2. This child is definitely NOT one to like "discovery method." We won't use AoPS as a primary text for any of the major subject categories for him. I may get the texts for more depth, but I already have LoF, too. Kinda bums me out, because I am so excited to get to Geometry.

 

My next child is almost finished with MM6... I'm trying to decide upon a Pre-Algebra course for her. I am leaning towards TT Algebra 1 with LoF, and maybe moving to AoPS if I think she needs an extra year of Pre-A. I don't know how this child would be with discovery method, but she would probably be better with it than my oldest.

 

Math makes my head hurt (not doing it, researching it.)

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:lurk5:

Though for the sake of my budget, I really ought to keep away from this thread :tongue_smilie:

 

:iagree: This is dangerous territory!

 

I've "definitely decided" at least 5 times now. :lol:

 

I've been avoiding looking at DM. And avoiding all threads that even discuss DM. But of course, I had to look.

 

And of course, it looks good. Very good.

 

Math makes my head hurt (not doing it, researching it.)

 

LOL! Pre-algebra is getting more entertaining every day...

 

:lurk5:

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LOL! Pre-algebra is getting more entertaining every day...

 

:lurk5:

 

I remember reading something about DM being hard to teach....or too "integrative" for those who want to follow a traditional math sequence? Can't recall. Also, the expense is a factor-it looks very pricey.

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OK, crazy question. I was looking on my library website for Lial and Dolciani - if I can borrow it, then I can get a better feel for it. Wow, I'm totally lost!! There is Beginning Algebra, then there is Beginning and Intermediate Algebra. There is Structure and Method 1 and 2. There are all kinds of funky names that don't explicitly tell me whether it is Pre-Algebra, Algebra 1, or Algebra 2. So...

 

Dolciani's PreAlgebra is called?

Algebra 1?

Algebra 2?

And Lial's PreAlgebra is called?

Algebra 1? Algebra 2?

That might help me get a little further here, lol!

 

BTW, the public school's avoidance of using "grade levels" on their books is really, really not helpful.

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I think all the recent threads have convinced me to go with AOPS. For my older two who have yet to reach pre-algebra I think it would work for different reasons. Both are whole to part learners and it seems to fit with that paradigm. The wordiness is a plus for my oldest. My oldest ds probably needs a problem solving approach to fully understand, but he would find a standard step-by-step approach easier. He is diligent and a perfectionist so challenge is good for him. My younger ds would probably fit into a problem-solving approach naturally. And the biggest plus for me is the ability to move to online classes when things get over my head. At this point in time both want to head to STEM careers so I want to choose wisely. I found the AOP staff list to be quite impressive.

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I remember reading something about DM being hard to teach....or too "integrative" for those who want to follow a traditional math sequence? Can't recall. Also, the expense is a factor-it looks very pricey.

 

Those are some of the same reservations I have with DM. They are mostly based on what I've read of other people's experiences. It seems I hear more negative than positive.

 

I need to look at it more closely, though.

 

Thanks for posting the link to Lial's.

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OK, crazy question. I was looking on my library website for Lial and Dolciani - if I can borrow it, then I can get a better feel for it. Wow, I'm totally lost!! There is Beginning Algebra, then there is Beginning and Intermediate Algebra. There is Structure and Method 1 and 2. There are all kinds of funky names that don't explicitly tell me whether it is Pre-Algebra, Algebra 1, or Algebra 2. So...

 

Dolciani's PreAlgebra is called?

Algebra 1?

Algebra 2?

And Lial's PreAlgebra is called?

Algebra 1? Algebra 2?

That might help me get a little further here, lol!

 

BTW, the public school's avoidance of using "grade levels" on their books is really, really not helpful.

 

Dolciani Prealgebra is called Prealgebra, an Accelerated Course (the 1985 and 1988 editions are the same). There is a 1992 edition with the same cover, so I assume it's very similar. The 1981 and 1977 Prealgebra (New Edition) is a different book (not bad, just older; somewhat in between the more modern '80s books and the early '70s one). There's also a 1970/1973 Modern School Mathematics: Prealgebra that is more... of something; old-fashioned, starts with set theory. (FWIW, I have the 1973, 1977 and 1988 editions.)

 

Lial's Prealgebra is called Prealgebra. I have the 3rd edition.

 

Algebra editions are a whole 'nother thread.

Edited by wapiti
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Dolciani Prealgebra is called Prealgebra, an Accelerated Course (the 1985 and 1988 editions are the same). There is a 1992 edition with the same cover, so I assume it's very similar. The 1981 and 1977 "New Edition" is a different book (not bad, just older).

 

Lial's Prealgebra is called Prealgebra. I have the 3rd edition.

 

Algebra editions are a whole 'nother thread.

 

These are the editions of Dolciani and Lial's I have, also.

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I remember reading something about DM being hard to teach....or too "integrative" for those who want to follow a traditional math sequence? Can't recall. Also, the expense is a factor-it looks very pricey.

 

I didn't find DM hard to teach. I basically just read over the text and worked the sample problems with dd, then she did the exercises. The workbook problems are extremely meaty and integrate everything taught in the course up to that point. Not spiral, but you have to use everything you've learned before to do the problems with the new concept.

 

Like in Geometry, to figure out adjacent angles on a straight line, instead of Angle A is 50º, Angle B is 32º, what is Angle C? The question would be something like Angle A is 3x^2/4, Angle B is 2x-6, what is Angle C? (just making that up off the top of my head, but you get the idea).

 

As a Prealgebra, it is a rigorous course - the only thing that I've seen comparable is AoPS. DM1 gets into Algebra proper, it's scope/sequence and depth go beyond standard Prealgebra (also true of AoPS).

 

I jumped ship because I did want a more standard progression, but I'm glad we did DM1.

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DM does follow an integrated sequence, which is a big reason why we probably will switch after 1A/B. Though if I really end up wanting to continue with DM, I might be able to use 2-4 in tandem with some UC-approved math textbook. I'm not totally sure how much of the approved textbook DD would have to do to satisfy the requirements of the virtual charter (we'll cross that bridge when we come to it).

 

My biggest concern in continuing on after DM1 is the lack of hand-holding for me as teacher. I feel confident in my ability to teach the material in DM1, but the harder topics in Algebra 1 & 2 intimidate me. I'm considering working through Foerster's as a refresher ahead of reaching those topics in DM.

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DM does follow an integrated sequence, which is a big reason why we probably will switch after 1A/B. Though if I really end up wanting to continue with DM, I might be able to use 2-4 in tandem with some UC-approved math textbook. I'm not totally sure how much of the approved textbook DD would have to do to satisfy the requirements of the virtual charter (we'll cross that bridge when we come to it).

 

My biggest concern in continuing on after DM1 is the lack of hand-holding for me as teacher. I feel confident in my ability to teach the material in DM1, but the harder topics in Algebra 1 & 2 intimidate me. I'm considering working through Foerster's as a refresher ahead of reaching those topics in DM.

 

Speaking of refresher courses, can someone recommend an algebra book to ME to prepare for teaching my son? I am leaning towards Lial's Algebra. I am a visual learner, and did well in high school math, but I was not a discovery or 'creative' learner when it came to math...

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Speaking of refresher courses, can someone recommend an algebra book to ME to prepare for teaching my son? I am leaning towards Lial's Algebra. I am a visual learner, and did well in high school math, but I was not a discovery or 'creative' learner when it came to math...

 

I'm reading my tattered & torn Larson text and watching Prof Mosely and Khan Academy vids. Any solid alg 1 or 2 text should be fine for self-ed.

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I'm reading my tattered & torn Larson text and watching Prof Mosely and Khan Academy vids. Any solid alg 1 or 2 text should be fine for self-ed.

 

Now that you mention it I bet that is why so many parents love Dolciani, the older the better (1960s). I've even heard some mention they like it because its what they had studied. Its probably easier to go back to one's old HS text and review what was learned many moons ago. In my case I'd have to look long and hard to find my old Algebra book, especially since I don't even remember the author. :tongue_smilie:

Edited by dereksurfs
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Now that you mention it I bet that is why so many parents love Dolciani, the older the better (1960s). I've even heard some mention they like it because its what they had studied. Its probably easier to go back to one's old HS text and review what was learned many moons ago. In my case I'd have to look long and hard to find my old Algebra book, especially since I don't even remember the author. :tongue_smilie:

 

It's tattered & torn because I bought it used and then my two older dc used it. Not because it's a relic from the stone age (aka my high school years). :)

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