Pre-Algebra Fence Straddlers Master Thread

[JadeOrchidSong]

 

 

I will. :) I should have it figured out by the 6th of January (as we start again on the 7th :lol: ) and will report back.

 

So how is the comparing going? We can't wait to hear!

[MyLittleWonders]

I've decided to just do SM 6A this semester with ds11. I need to make sure his foundation is strong (dh is going over 5A/5B concepts at night to make sure they are solid as well). We'll work through 6B this summer/fall and then will probably use Dolciani PreA as a quick review/refresher before moving onto Algebra.

 

So how is the comparing going? We can't wait to hear!

 

I'll get there eventually. I actually completely forgot once our semester started (I was just happy to finally have it all planned as we changed up almost everything). I still plan on going through it and I can compare what it teaches with the 6A/6B progression. Hopefully I can do it this weekend, but I can't guarantee it.

[Halcyon]

Hi all, wanted to see where everyone was at! We got aout halfway through Dolciani Pre A last year; we started late (began the year with Aops) and took a long summer break, plus that is one DENSE and LONG book...anyway, we decided to jump ship to TabletClass Pre-a. I spoke to john Zimmerman, and he will switch us from Pre- to algebra whenever we feel ready.

 

I really don't want to rush him through Pre-a. He is only going into 6th, so i think another 6 months of Pre-A (for a total of 12 months) will do him good.

 

Where is everyone at? Were you happy with your Pre-a decision? Are you ready to move on to algebra, or are you spending longer in Pre-Algebra?

[dereksurfs]

I'm glad you resurrected this old thread as its nice to look at how things went.  I also find it interesting to see how things evolved as original plans took different turns.  

 

For us it started out with a 'brief' time in MUS Pre-A just to cover some S&S gaps such as negative numbers.  Then we spent ~ 2/3 of the school year going through all of TabletClass Pre-A.  ds11 at the time finished ahead of schedule which allowed us begin Algebra before the end of the 6th grade.  He's now almost half way through AoPS intro to Algebra which has gone very smoothly after TC with some AoPS supplementation during that time.  So we'll enter 7th grade with a solid Algebra foundation which makes me feel glad that all his hard work has paid off.  6th grade was the year of greatest mental growth for ds.  It was like his brain was ready for so much more than previous years.  And thankfully I was ready to keep giving it to him.

[Halcyon]

How long did it take you to get through TCPre Algebra, Derek? We are going to bypass 5 chapters or so, which leaves us 11 chapters. I wonder if it is doable to complete that by January, without rushing.

[dereksurfs]

How long did it take you to get through TCPre Algebra, Derek? We are going to bypass 5 chapters or so, which leaves us 11 chapters. I wonder if it is doable to complete that by January, without rushing.

 

 

I really allowed ds12 to vary his pace more than ever with TC depending on his understanding of the material as well as ability to grasp new concepts.  If he already knew it, like some of the initial chapters, we really accelerated things.  For example I think I let him just do the review problems then take the chapter tests.  As long as he demonstrated mastery we moved on.  This then gave us breathing room to slow down when things really got interesting and more challenging which they will.  

 

It took ds11 ~ 2/3 of the school year to complete TC Pre-A.  While it's important not to rush IMO, it's perfectly fine to speed things up when he's got it and the mental juices are flowing.  The thing is there is no way to accurately predict length of time needed for each child to complete the course ahead of time. The reason I say this is that what makes perfect sense to one child may not for another at different points throughout the course. You just have to let him dive in and monitor his learning progress.  I will say its doable to finish ahead of schedule if things are clicking for him.  As long as you don't freak out (for lack of a better term) when he struggles and allow him all the time he needs to 'get it' before moving on.  Even if you want to finish by January I wouldn't recommend telling him that as he may feel overly stressed about schedule.  Instead I recommend simply give him plenty of time for math as a priority.  We like to spend at least 1.5 hours a day or a minimum number of sections to finish.  Just keep in mind some sections are definitely more challenging than others.  Secondly we do 'some' math during the Summer.  So you may want to give him a little jump start now if not doing so already.

 

I also recommend supplementing as we did when hitting the really tough stuff as its nice to present these concepts from another perspective at times.  The one critique I have heard so far of TC is that there is sometimes not enough practice/review problems.  I've heard others say the same thing about AoPS.  But we're ok with that since I have so many other resources to pull from if/when needed.  

[Pen]

We have a combo of Jousting w/ Armadillos and Critical Thinking Co. Balance Math type books going--jumped ship from Lial's as too "busy" (actually I knew that and really wanted it just as a basic reference).  After initially loving Armadillos, ds seems to want a more straightforward, "just tell me what to do and I'll do it" sort of approach, and not so much writing to do--though that Jw/A is intended for his age is nice.  He keeps asking what is the point and what does this have to do with math and I am having a hard time coming up with answers.  Maybe I should contact Linus.  Anyway,  I think we will be ready for Algebra 1 sometime midyear.  Don't know what to get for that.

 

When the math is actually too easy, then he enjoys cartoony things like Zaccarro, or LOF,  but when he is at his math level, the layout and print becomes important and it needs to be a clean, coherent layout and typeface.   This adds a whole element of trickiness to finding a good fit.

 

For Alg. 1, I'm thinking now toward a basic textbook --  trying  to understand the difference between Holt  by Larson vs. Holt by Burger as principal authors and if either would be a good fit.  Versus possibly Dolciani...     I cannot seem to find "look insides" for any of them.  And they are so expensive, and even just heavy weight for shipping costs.  Sigh.

[dereksurfs]

For Alg. 1, I'm thinking now toward a basic textbook --  trying  to understand the difference between Holt  by Larson vs. Holt by Burger as principal authors and if either would be a good fit.  Versus possibly Dolciani...     I cannot seem to find "look insides" for any of them.  And they are so expensive, and even just heavy weight for shipping costs.  Sigh.

 

Well, Pen, it's your lucky day!  :)   I just found a full Holt Larson version online you can take a look inside here:  https://sites.google.com/site/mathwithmrsdavenport/online-textbook-algebra

 

For me at least these newer Holt series books are a little too busy, similar to Lials in that way.  Some seem to like them.  But I prefer a cleaner presentation such as Foerster and Dolciani for math 'workbooks.'  These more classic math texts are mostly black and white, get right to the point and have a lot less distractions/clutter. However, that being said they are minimalistic in that they don't have as much instruction or elaboration.   They are designed primarily to be elaborated upon via classroom instruction.  So it really depends how much extra you want to elaborate on concepts yourself as teacher/parent.  By contrast books like AoPS Intro to Algebra or other online courses such as TabletClass or Derek Owens are designed as full Algebra 1 courses.  As such they are written and directed toward the student to learn from the course work provided.  

 

BTW, I've got Dolciani, Foerster, AoPS and TabletClass which I've compared if interested: Algebra 1 S&S matrix.

 

One last great resource  if you are in a state which participates is OpenLibrary.  They have some older Holt texts which I like a bit more here: http://openlibrary.org/search?q=holt+algebra&has_fulltext=true

[Pen]

Thanks Derek!  I'll check that out...  now if I can just find an inside view of Burger...

 

We do not have high speed internet  where we are (dial up only except when on trips into the city), making an online class an ify proposition.  I tried to do a coursera class and found I could not access it enough...So I think things like TabletClass and Derek Owens are out.  

 

AoPS is actually possible.  I think of it as for kids more mathy than my ds, but it might conceivably work.  Foerster had interested me very much, but I was steered away from it by someone--cannot recall why now--maybe that it might not be good fit for an 11year old?  I do not mind teaching/elaborating, but ds is at the "go away, I can do it myself"  stage, so if the program actually does allow him to do it himself, that would help.  He does better with solved example problems to look over than with lots of verbal explanation.

[Pen]

Hmmm.  After looking at your matrix, I am thinking no, not AOPS.  I start thinking, maybe Dolciani, or maybe he should go back to MUS which has a very clear page lay-out.  

 

So far I cannot seem to access the inside view of the Larson book, but that could be the dial-up problem.

 

I am also thinking to visit a used bookstore when next at our nearest city and see what they have.

 

ETA:  I also think he likes things that look heavy and serious, but are not actually too hard...    I think perhaps I like the lightweight Jw/A book and its humorous title, but he might prefer a 1000 page tome with just "Algebra" as a title.

[dereksurfs]

Thanks Derek!  I'll check that out...  now if I can just find an inside view of Burger...

 

We do not have high speed internet  where we are (dial up only except when on trips into the city), making an online class an ify proposition.  I tried to do a coursera class and found I could not access it enough...So I think things like TabletClass and Derek Owens are out.  

 

AoPS is actually possible.  I think of it as for kids more mathy than my ds, but it might conceivably work.  Foerster had interested me very much, but I was steered away from it by someone--cannot recall why now--maybe that it might not be good fit for an 11year old?  I do not mind teaching/elaborating, but ds is at the "go away, I can do it myself"  stage, so if the program actually does allow him to do it himself, that would help.  He does better with solved example problems to look over than with lots of verbal explanation.

 

For ds12 I think AoPS is easier to learn from directly than either Dolciani or Foerster could ever be because of the way it is written.  However AoPS also has more challenging content.  In addition it uses a discovery approach.  So it's not the best fit for every child.  But for some there's nothing that compares.  I also think the Intro to Algebra Text is probably the best Algebra book I've ever seen in the way its laid out along with the detailed explanations it provides.  Yet there is minimal clutter compared to the Holts, Lials, etc... public school texts of the day.  IMO, it is a work of art. :D  I think its at least worth trying out.  I'm sure the resale value is also high as it's a popular text.  But I would keep it on hand for reference as supplemental for good explanations of concepts and challenge problems at the very least.

 

BTW, both ds12 and my wife love the fact he is 90+% independent with his math now.  This is an added bonus feature with these other programs. IMO there is nothing wrong with him wanting more independence at this stage.  Learning to problem solve and wrestle with problems on his own is a good thing.  If we had gone with a more classic textbook it would have been Foerster along with the Math w/o Borders CD lessons.  Personally, I like the explanations and overall layout of Foerster over Dolciani.

[Woodland Mist Academy]

DD11 is still working through AoPS Pre-A. We have had many disruptions--some beyond her control (life transitions within the family).

Others were purposeful--DH works with her on more advanced math concepts so she will be familiar with them on the ACT, and she is spending time on Khan Academy. Those take time, but they are worth it. It is also good for her to be getting math from additional sources. (The more the better--within reason of course. ;) )

 

Another significant disruption has been pesky adolescence. :rolleyes:  After many, many battles I realized she wasn't battling math, she wasn't battling AoPS, she wasn't even always battling ME (quite a shock --that one ;) ).  The first couple months of Pre-A were spent getting used to AoPS, then it was a matter of how to deal with AoPS during rough patches of um,er-- inner growth. ;) .  What it boils down to is I think we've finally worked through all that and are back on track. (If it sounds like I am trying to convince myself, it's because I am! :p )

 

In the end, she enjoys AoPS. She's not speedy with it (partly because it's not all we're doing), but it's working. She will probably finish Pre-A sometime in the fall.

[Halcyon]

One other thing that tends to slow us down is the addition of LOTS of "fun" math books...we have a ton of them and they take time to use. I am debating going slow this year finishing up PRE A and using a lot of these resources. I am in no rush to get to algebra.

[dereksurfs]

One other thing that tends to slow us down is the addition of LOTS of "fun" math books...we have a ton of them and ey take time to use. I am debating going slow this year finishing up PRE A and using a lot of see resources. I am in no rush to get to algebra.

 

I like this idea.  There is one more bonus going this route if you do which I haven't mentioned yet.  TC, like AoPS, covers a greater scope than most Pre-A programs.  So your son will be doing actual algbera for a good portion of that class.  In doing so it will more than prepare him for Algebra 1.  In fact you may find that there is overlap between Pre-A and Algebra 1.  If you look at the S&S of Pre-A and Algebra TC you will notice there are a lot of similar subjects covered.  Of course the Algebra course will go more in depth in some areas as well as include others.  But this will potentially allow him to accelerate Algebra itself somewhat which may come as surprise to you once he gets there.  At the very least it will make it a lot more smooth sailing than if he had not been introduced to these topics beforehand.

[boscopup]

We started AoPS Prealgebra. We have almost finished Chapter 1 - just have Review and Challenge sections left. So far, so good! The Problems section is a bit esoteric for him, but he's understanding the material, and he enjoys the exercises (and was happy when he got the first "starred" question on his own :) ). I'm throwing in some Dolciani Prealgebra wherever he needs a little extra practice (I noticed that he could use a bit more time working on complex order of operations equations, and also work on using the different properties - associative, commutative, distributive). He was able to do the exercises in the chapter, but I could see that he needed some practice on those couple topics to make things more solid. So we'll do two sections of Dolciani this week, then head back to AoPS and do the Review and Challenge next week, moving on to Chapter 2 when done. I'll continue to use Dolciani as needed, for fill-in practice.

 

I also signed him up for Alcumus. Just waiting on the registration to be approved after sending in the parent permission form.

[Clear Creek]

My oldest has actually been working through the pre-algebra on yourteacher.com (it was a summer freebie from homeschool buyers co-op).  Her head has come out of the fog that it was in the entire past year and she is flying through it; she should have no trouble finishing it (or coming very close) when the subscription expires at the end of August.  She works for 45 minutes every day and covers three or four lessons in that time.  It is a very basic pre-a program, though, which is why I am just using it to shore up her basic skills before using a harder pre-a.

 

My plan is to do a quick run-through of Jousting Armadillos this fall, then begin AOPS pre-algebra.  She has also requested that she take another Elements of Mathematics class online, so we may fit that in between the two books.  If there is enough time in the day she may do it concurrently with JA or AOPS; it is so unlike traditional math that it seems like a separate course to her.  I can see the connections to higher mathematics, though, and I think it is phenomenal in its presentation.

 

We are not in a hurry with math; my daughter is only going to be a sixth grader (and by state standards she should only be a fifth grader, I started her early), so there is no rush.  We are enjoying taking the time to go deep.

 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

I'm glad you resurrected this old thread as its nice to look at how things went.  I also find it interesting to see how things evolved as original plans took different turns.  

 

For us it started out with a 'brief' time in MUS Pre-A just to cover some S&S gaps such as negative numbers.  Then we spent ~ 2/3 of the school year going through all of TabletClass Pre-A.  ds11 at the time finished ahead of schedule which allowed us begin Algebra before the end of the 6th grade.  He's now almost half way through AoPS intro to Algebra which has gone very smoothly after TC with some AoPS supplementation during that time.  So we'll enter 7th grade with a solid Algebra foundation which makes me feel glad that all his hard work has paid off.  6th grade was the year of greatest mental growth for ds.  It was like his brain was ready for so much more than previous years.  And thankfully I was ready to keep giving it to him.

 

Am I understanding correctly that your ds finished half of AoPS Intro to Algebra in just a few months? That's speedy! Is he doing Alcumus and all the challenge problems? 

 

Thanks!

[NittanyJen]

We'll see how this year goes.

 

Older guy used Life of Fred for all of his PreA needs (looked at and ditched AoPS) and did great in Algebra I this year, continuing to do geometry/trig/dabble in calc in his own time for fun (none of that counts for 'credit;' he'll do it for real later).

 

Younger guy (9) loves Fred and is working through Fractions this summer, but I am a fan of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it," and he has just thrived in Singapore so far, so as much as we have loved Fred as a primary program, I am going to have younger try to stick with Singapore as a primary program, starting DM7 this fall, using Fred on the side (still daily, but probably at a slower pace than older brother used it).  

 

I really like the integrated approach of Singapore DM, not chopping math up into discrete chunks.  We'll see how it goes.  I actually own Tobey and Slater, Dolciani, Foerster, Lial, AoPS, and of course Fred Fred Fred, so we have plenty to fall back on if something doesn't click . . . and he's 9, so there's plenty of time :).  Who knows, maybe I'll even have this one take a lick at AoPS, though I am not convinced the preA book is a great place to start-- I really do feel they made a pretty basic math level way too complicated.  I like the looks of the algebra book a bit more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dereksurfs]

Am I understanding correctly that your ds finished half of AoPS Intro to Algebra in just a few months? That's speedy! Is he doing Alcumus and all the challenge problems? 

 

Thanks!

 

No, I should have clarified more.  When I said almost half way through I referring to the Algebra 1 portion of the text (ch.1-13).  ds12 started AoPS toward the end of 6th grade.  I think he started ~ April.  Then he took off pretty quickly with it after TabletClass which really prepared him well for those first few chapters.  He worked a few months and then we hit Summer break.  Now he is working more slowly a few days a week on it and has progressed to ch.5.  So by the end of Summer he will most likely be in ch. 6 or ch.7.  From my understanding they are also the hardest chapters of the book, at least at this Algebra 1 level. So we may slow down quite a bit there.  I've heard some even skip those chapters, then come back to them later.  We'll just have to see how it goes once he gets there. 

[Woodland Mist Academy]

No, I should have clarified more.  When I said almost half way through I referring to the Algebra 1 portion of the text (ch.1-13).  ds12 started AoPS toward the end of 6th grade.  I think he started ~ April.  Then he took off pretty quickly with it after TabletClass which really prepared him well for those first few chapters.  He worked a few months and then we hit Summer break.  Now he is working more slowly a few days a week on it and has progressed to ch.5.  So by the end of Summer he will most likely be in ch. 6 or ch.7.  From my understanding they are also the hardest chapters of the book, at least at this Algebra 1 level. So we may slow down quite a bit there.  I've heard some even skip those chapters, then come back to them later.  We'll just have to see how it goes once he gets there. 

 

Thank you for clarifying! I was starting to think dd is even slower than I originally thought! ;)  (Glances at dd who is now on her third AoPS session of the day as a result of my misinterpretation of dereksurfs earlier post which led to my boldly stated declaration that this slow pace will no longer be acceptable... :smilielol5: ) 

[dereksurfs]

Thank you for clarifying! I was starting to think dd is even slower than I originally thought! ;)  (Glances at dd who is now on her third AoPS session of the day as a result of my misinterpretation of dereksurfs earlier post which led to my boldly stated declaration that this slow pace will no longer be acceptable... :smilielol5: ) 

 

 

Noooo, please don't torture her because of us.   :001_unsure:   :P   When I look at the pace of those AoPS courses including the amount of material which is covered that looks like torture!

[Woodland Mist Academy]

LOL

 

Actually, I think we may be on to something! She plans to do her fourth AoPS session after history. She agreed with a smile. (Better not be that newfangled reverse psychology.  :sneaky2:  )

 

Seriously though, I am going to try this again tomorrow--one long AoPS session in the morning, then a problem (or two or five ;)) scattered throughout the rest of the day.  She seemed refreshed and ready to tackle them.

 

So, thanks!

 

Now hopefully I can go misinterpret some more posts and in the process solve all my homeschooling woes! :cheers2:

[RootAnn]

...   Her head has come out of the fog that it was in the entire past year ...

 

Glory?   !Tell me they come through it! *says the Mom who dealt with oldest child protesting all day yesterday that she "couldn't concentrate" on her math*

 

:banghead:    :boxing_smiley:     :crying: 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I'm sorry but :001_huh: :tongue_smilie: :banghead: Because ALL kids need to be on a college-prep course and MUST take Advanced Math to function in society? If everyone takes Algebra 1 in 8th, I'm guessing it doesn't count towards graduation? If it does...then why the heck push high-school courses onto middle schoolers?

 

I know here in VA, honors track can take it in 7th. I know some kids who do. More than half need tutors to pass, and then re-take it in 8th. It may count towards graduation. I don't know if Algebra 1 in 8th is actually required, though.

In our district algebra taken before high school does get counted toward graduation and into the gpa (for good or bad).  I've been talking with another scout parent whose son got a C in algebra in 8th grade.  His high school is an IB school and he has to take geometry in 9th in order to stay on track for an IB diploma.  

[Clear Creek]

Glory?   !Tell me they come through it! *says the Mom who dealt with oldest child protesting all day yesterday that she "couldn't concentrate" on her math*

 

:banghead:    :boxing_smiley:     :crying: 

 

It may just be temporary, but one day last month the fog lifted while she was doing her Latin.  Her exact words as she leapt out of her chair were, "It's like my brain just opened up and it all makes sense now!  It is so easy!"  And from that day forth she has been making significant progress in math and Latin, whereas before she was stagnating in math and struggling to fit the pieces together in Latin.

 

I am praying that it continues....

[PhotoGal]

I hope it is okay to bump this older thread. Just wanted to check in with you experienced parents to see how prealgebra went! I'm trying to decide what to do after ds finishes Singapore 5B (probably won't be until mid next year). He has done well with Beast Academy (and *I* like it), but he doesn't choose it when offered B.A. or Singapore. I was thinking of doing AoPS pre-algebra after Singapore, but now I'm wondering if I should do something else for pre-algebra (MUS algebra?) and then go to AoPS algebra later. Thoughts? He understand math concepts quickly, but his output is slow. He will need something that doesn't focus too much on output, but yet gives enough practice so he could (hopefully) have automaticity on skills - so he can work a little quicker in the long run. One reason Beast Academy worked well is that it made sense for him to go more slowly, whereas with Singapore I feel like I have to keep him going or he stalls out (mind wanders off... LOL). He might need the challenge of AoPS to keep his mind engaged. Do you think some kind of intermediary is necessary between Singapore 5B and AoPS?

[Embassy]

I hope it is okay to bump this older thread. Just wanted to check in with you experienced parents to see how prealgebra went! I'm trying to decide what to do after ds finishes Singapore 5B (probably won't be until mid next year). He has done well with Beast Academy (and *I* like it), but he doesn't choose it when offered B.A. or Singapore. I was thinking of doing AoPS pre-algebra after Singapore, but now I'm wondering if I should do something else for pre-algebra (MUS algebra?) and then go to AoPS algebra later. Thoughts? He understand math concepts quickly, but his output is slow. He will need something that doesn't focus too much on output, but yet gives enough practice so he could (hopefully) have automaticity on skills - so he can work a little quicker in the long run. One reason Beast Academy worked well is that it made sense for him to go more slowly, whereas with Singapore I feel like I have to keep him going or he stalls out (mind wanders off... LOL). He might need the challenge of AoPS to keep his mind engaged. Do you think some kind of intermediary is necessary between Singapore 5B and AoPS?

 

I didn't find it necessary for my son, but AOPS Pre-Algebra has been slow going.  AOPS is a bit different though.  It isn't providing enough practice for automaticity.  It is providing hard problems so the child has to learn to think through what he is doing.  So it isn't like you are practicing a bunch of similar problems.

[texasmama]

I didn't find it necessary for my son, but AOPS Pre-Algebra has been slow going.  AOPS is a bit different though.  It isn't providing enough practice for automaticity.  It is providing hard problems so the child has to learn to think through what he is doing.  So it isn't like you are practicing a bunch of similar problems.

This has been our experience, as well.

 

We bogged down in Chapter 5 and needed to take a 5-6 week foray into Key to Algebra and Zaccaro's Real World Algebra and then return to the end problems in chapter 5.  Things went much more smoothly once the boys had that practice. 

 

I think that this could easily be a curriculum (AoPS pre-A) which takes two years with these types of forays into other curricula to cement concepts, if needed. 

 

One of my boys went straight into it from SM 5B, and this was a fine transition for him with a summer bridge of two booklets of Keys to Algebra prior to starting, mostly to introduce negative numbers  (Both boys did this, though my older one had also completed SM 6A and B.) 

[dereksurfs]

I hope it is okay to bump this older thread. Just wanted to check in with you experienced parents to see how prealgebra went! I'm trying to decide what to do after ds finishes Singapore 5B (probably won't be until mid next year). He has done well with Beast Academy (and *I* like it), but he doesn't choose it when offered B.A. or Singapore. I was thinking of doing AoPS pre-algebra after Singapore, but now I'm wondering if I should do something else for pre-algebra (MUS algebra?) and then go to AoPS algebra later. Thoughts? He understand math concepts quickly, but his output is slow. He will need something that doesn't focus too much on output, but yet gives enough practice so he could (hopefully) have automaticity on skills - so he can work a little quicker in the long run. One reason Beast Academy worked well is that it made sense for him to go more slowly, whereas with Singapore I feel like I have to keep him going or he stalls out (mind wanders off... LOL). He might need the challenge of AoPS to keep his mind engaged. Do you think some kind of intermediary is necessary between Singapore 5B and AoPS?

 

It wouldn't hurt to get a *few* resources available to test out the waters.  You could have the AoPS Pre-A text on hand and weave it in gradually, or go full guns if he likes it.  But I don't think it would be good to have only one option, especially at this age.  He may feel its too much, too soon... or not.  You could have a few things for him to work with and increase/decrease each as they fit best while fine tuning that just right learning challenge. 

 

Our path to AoPS took several detours first starting with MUS Pre-A (way too easy), then on to TabletClass Pre-A.  We found that TC provided a good level of challenge while also supplementing with AoPS Pre-A lectures and sample text, especially the chapter on linear equations.  That year was a year of tremendous growth for ds11 at the time with plenty of algebraic reasoning and challenge to sink his teeth into.  From there we springboarded directly into AoPS Intro to Algebra which he has been doing well with this year, almost done now with the Algebra 1 portion.  I share our story to provide one example of the many pathways which can lead into AoPS.  It doesn't have to be a straight line and certainly wasn't for us.  Discover what works best for your ds with him and then let him enjoy the journey. 

[Pen]

I hope it is okay to bump this older thread. Just wanted to check in with you experienced parents to see how prealgebra went.... Thoughts? He understand math concepts quickly, but his output is slow. He will need something that doesn't focus too much on output, but yet gives enough practice so he could (hopefully) have automaticity on skills - so he can work a little quicker in the long run. ...

 

We bounced around some, but ended up with AoPS as our spine. Did some Jousting with Armadillos as a transition. I like it a lot, but it has a lot of writing, so not the best when wanting to minimize output (this was a problem for ds). He also did Math Detective and is half way through the last of the series. 

 

Then ds wanted to try AoPS algebra, not pre-A, so we did try that, but have gone back to pre-A.  We have extra materials available so extra practice is available when he needs it. Also there is Alcumus, and we are just starting to get the hang of how to use that. At this time he is using Alcumus problems as his first step, and then filling in as he feels he needs to do so, or as I feel that, though he is increasingly self-guiding in this. Since there are some areas that do need more work, I got the AoPS pre-A book.  Alcumus tells what chapter to go to for more information on a topic.

 

If someone bumps this in a few months, things may be different here yet again, but at the moment it seems like there is a working trajectory that will keep AoPS as our spine with other materials for extra practice as needed.

 

Cannot speak to the SM5 transition since we did not do SM.

[MamaSprout]

It wouldn't hurt to get a *few* resources available to test out the waters.  You could have the AoPS Pre-A text on hand and weave it in gradually, or go full guns if he likes it.  But I don't think it would be good to have only one option, especially at this age.  He may feel its too much, too soon... or not.  You could have a few things for him to work with and increase/decrease each as they fit best while fine tuning that just right learning challenge. 

 

Our path to AoPS took several detours first starting with MUS Pre-A (way too easy), then on to TabletClass Pre-A.  We found that TC provided a good level of challenge while also supplementing with AoPS Pre-A lectures and sample text, especially the chapter on linear equations.  That year was a year of tremendous growth for ds11 at the time with plenty of algebraic reasoning and challenge to sink his teeth into.  From there we springboarded directly into AoPS Intro to Algebra which he has been doing well with this year, almost done now with the Algebra 1 portion.  I share our story to provide one example of the many pathways which can lead into AoPS.  It doesn't have to be a straight line and certainly wasn't for us.  Discover what works best for your ds with him and then let him enjoy the journey. 

 

Do you think the textbook is necessary (or substantially beneficial) for AoPS Alcumus PreA? We've been doing a mash up of Alcumus, Dolciani and Singapore. She's not flying through Alcumus (just finished reciprocals), but likes it/ gets it so far. If a major speed bump is coming, I may go ahead and buy the book, although at the moment I don't intend to use it as a primary text.

[Halcyon]

Question: DS has finished TabletClass Pre-A and is about 3 months from finishing TabletClass Algebra. Do you think it would benefit him to go back and revisit AoPS Pre-A? Or has that ship sailed? 

[wapiti]

Do you think the textbook is necessary (or substantially beneficial) for AoPS Alcumus PreA? We've been doing a mash up of Alcumus, Dolciani and Singapore. She's not flying through Alcumus (just finished reciprocals), but likes it/ gets it so far. If a major speed bump is coming, I may go ahead and buy the book, although at the moment I don't intend to use it as a primary text.

 

While I'm not sure what the best way would be to go about using the text in a supplemental manner, IMO the instruction and problems in the text are more substantial than what you'll find in Alcumus.  I suppose you could do the chapter reviews and then just the lessons that were extra over Dolciani (which is a fine text as well, IMO).  I would pay particular attention to ch 2 and 5 and 14.  Plus, the geometry chapters in AoPS Prealgebra are more fun than in a more traditional text.  ("the chicken crossed the road at a 22 degree angle and then took an abrupt turn....")

[wapiti]

. 

 

[dereksurfs]

Question: DS has finished TabletClass Pre-A and is about 3 months from finishing TabletClass Algebra. Do you think it would benefit him to go back and revisit AoPS Pre-A? Or has that ship sailed? 

 

Hm, I think if your ds finishes *both* TC courses he will be more than ready for AoPS Intro to Algebra or any other Algebra review (Dolciani, Foerster, etc...). However that is not to say there would not be some value in reviewing over AoPS Pre-A as the problems can be quite challenging.  I'm not sure if that would bother him or not, feeling he is going 'backwards' to Pre-A after completing Algebra in TC.  But since you have the text already it may not hurt to give it a go, especially the chapters on Linear Equations and Geometry.  I think that will be a call you'll have to make in knowing him and his tolerance for it vs. moving into AoPS Intro to Algebra or another more lateral program/book.   Maybe you could say we are going to do a quick review of some concepts before moving on... 

 

What would your next possible steps I guess is the larger question?  For example I think you had mentioned possibly spending more time reviewing Algebra 1 initially.  If so are you thinking of Dolciani next, or would you instead move him right into Geometry?

[Rosepetal]

We bounced around some, but ended up with AoPS as our spine. Did some Jousting with Armadillos as a transition. I like it a lot, but it has a lot of writing, so not the best when wanting to minimize output (this was a problem for ds). He also did Math Detective and is half way through the last of the series. 

 

Then ds wanted to try AoPS algebra, not pre-A, so we did try that, but have gone back to pre-A.  We have extra materials available so extra practice is available when he needs it. Also there is Alcumus, and we are just starting to get the hang of how to use that. At this time he is using Alcumus problems as his first step, and then filling in as he feels he needs to do so, or as I feel that, though he is increasingly self-guiding in this. Since there are some areas that do need more work, I got the AoPS pre-A book.  Alcumus tells what chapter to go to for more information on a topic.

 

If someone bumps this in a few months, things may be different here yet again, but at the moment it seems like there is a working trajectory that will keep AoPS as our spine with other materials for extra practice as needed.

 

Cannot speak to the SM5 transition since we did not do SM.

I am planning to add Chalk dust Basic Math with SM 6....but am trying to ask whether I use CD Basic Maths or CD Pre algebra with SM?

I prefer to use CD Maths because of its rigorousness and video lessons and I plan to use it through High School.....

Suggestion please!(Ds is interested in Engineering field-Stem career)

[dereksurfs]

Do you think the textbook is necessary (or substantially beneficial) for AoPS Alcumus PreA? We've been doing a mash up of Alcumus, Dolciani and Singapore. She's not flying through Alcumus (just finished reciprocals), but likes it/ gets it so far. If a major speed bump is coming, I may go ahead and buy the book, although at the moment I don't intend to use it as a primary text.

 

Dolciani is a fine Pre-A text on its own.  Adding in challenge from AoPS is a good idea which you are doing with Alcumus.  Wapiti gave some good suggestions for the Pre-A text.  I guess it would depend on what you plan to do for Algebra 1.  If AoPS Intro to Algebra is the goal then the Pre-A text may help in providing additional prep for it.  Although we have the Dolciani Pre-A text we decided to use TabletClass instead.  So I can't speak to its level of AoPS readiness training.

[Chrysalis Academy]

Derek & Halcyon (and anyone else who has used Tablet Class) - are you saying that you feel the need to do another algebra program after Tablet Class? You don't feel like your dc are ready to move on after completing TC?

 

If so, are you feeling that it is incomplete somehow? Or just looking for more practice for young dc who have plenty of time before moving on?  I've recently taken a look at this program but would really like to hear from someone whose kid has finished TC Algebra, about how well/completely it covers Algebra 1 and what they are ready for next.

[dereksurfs]

Derek & Halcyon (and anyone else who has used Tablet Class) - are you saying that you feel the need to do another algebra program after Tablet Class? You don't feel like your dc are ready to move on after completing TC?

 

If so, are you feeling that it is incomplete somehow? Or just looking for more practice for young dc who have plenty of time before moving on?  I've recently taken a look at this program but would really like to here from someone whose kid has finished TC Algebra, about how well/completely it covers Algebra 1 and what they are ready for next.

 

A number of us at least initially were planning on spending more time in Algebra 1 beyond any single course.  Personally I think this is a critical stage in abstract cognitive development and also foundational for other math courses to follow.  In our case we used TC for Pre-A and then moved into AoPS Intro to Algebra for Algebra 1.  ds12 will be finishing AoPS (ch 1-13) a bit ahead of schedule and so I am planning a follow-up with another Algebra 1 resource of which I own several.  I just need to decide soon what that will be.  I am leaning toward Foerster or TC.

 

Halycon has the most experience with TC since she went through both Pre-A and Algebra 1.  Our experience with it was great for Pre-A as it was very challenging covering more algebraic content than most Pre-A programs.  This was confirmed later after emailing the teacher.  Mr. Zimmerman said that the Pre-A course actually covers ~ half of his Algbera 1 course.  So in effect if the child completes Pre-A they could roll right into the second half of Algbera 1.  I will say that during our use of TC we also supplemented at times with AoPS and Khan Academy when we hit some of the more challenging areas.  But I also did the same during AoPS this year as I like to pull from a number of resources when teaching sometimes difficult concepts.

[Pen]

Question: DS has finished TabletClass Pre-A and is about 3 months from finishing TabletClass Algebra. Do you think it would benefit him to go back and revisit AoPS Pre-A? Or has that ship sailed? 

 

I cannot speak to TC, but if you try him on Alcumus, it starts out at pre-A, and you'd see if all that material is securely under his belt -- or not.

 

My ds could do work from Larson algebra, but in starting AoPS algebra, which he also could start just fine, he began Alcumus, and I realized in doing so that there were holes present and that AoPS pre-A would still be useful.

 

If you are not planning a move over to other AoPS materials though, maybe that is less relevant since maybe your program would cover such topics, if any, at other stages.

[wapiti]

. 

 

[Rosepetal]

I am planning to add Chalk dust Basic Math with SM 6....but am trying to ask whether I use CD Basic Maths or CD Pre algebra with SM?

I prefer to use CD Maths because of its rigorousness and video lessons and I plan to use it through High School.....

Suggestion please!(Ds is interested in Engineering field-Stem career)

 

Anyone here............ :confused1:

[Rosepetal]

I am planning to add Chalk dust Basic Math with SM 6....but am trying to ask whether I use CD Basic Maths or CD Pre algebra with SM?

I prefer to use CD Maths because of its rigorousness and video lessons and I plan to use it through High School.....

Suggestion please!(Ds is interested in Engineering field-Stem career)

 

Anyone here............ :confused1:

[Rosepetal]

sorry dp

[MamaSprout]

Dolciani is a fine Pre-A text on its own. Adding in challenge from AoPS is a good idea which you are doing with Alcumus. Wapiti gave some good suggestions for the Pre-A text. I guess it would depend on what you plan to do for Algebra 1. If AoPS Intro to Algebra is the goal then the Pre-A text may help in providing additional prep for it. Although we have the Dolciani Pre-A text we decided to use TabletClass instead. So I can't speak to its level of AoPS readiness training.

 

I'm not sure on Algebra, but I do know it will be either AoPS or Foerster, although it stills feels a long way off. We like the Foerster text, but neither of us have seen AoPS other than samples. She digs into Alcumus, so it seems worth taking a look at AoPS. Thanks!

 

Edited for spelling.

[dereksurfs]

 

I am planning to add Chalk dust Basic Math with SM 6....but am trying to ask whether I use CD Basic Maths or CD Pre algebra with SM?

I prefer to use CD Maths because of its rigorousness and video lessons and I plan to use it through High School.....

Suggestion please!(Ds is interested in Engineering field-Stem career)

 

Anyone here............ :confused1:

 

 

Hi Rose, I saw your earlier post regarding Chalkdust but have no experience with it.  Maybe someone else will chime in who has used it before.

[Pen]

Hi Rose, I saw your earlier post regarding Chalkdust but have no experience with it.  Maybe someone else will chime in who has used it before.

 

We have CD. It is an excellent program. But I am not clear on what the question is exactly.

 

Basic is on level at 6th grade, that is, a review going through everything from adding through to pre-A, though the text used is for remedial college work rather than typical elementary school text, and is equiv to Lial's BCM if you (Rosepetal) are familiar with that, though I much prefer the Auffmann BCM text used with CD.

 

The Aufmann pre-A is again equivalent to Lial's pre-A more or less. If you are trying to complement a 6th grade program,I'd think you'd  start with Basic. If trying to do pre-A start with pre-A. But I am not sure there is any reason to do both SM6 and also CD for 6th. Maybe it is just time to switch to CD if that is what you will be using. ???

[Pen]

PS from last post--when I spoke to them, CD recommended skipping pre-A and going direct to their Algebra 1 if a student does well easily with Basic, rather than skipping Basic and starting at pre-A.

[coffeefreak]

Please keep in mind this thread was for staddlers, who I was also a part of at one time. :tongue_smilie:

 

Bottom line: You won't find a definative answer to your question as we all have different things that end up working best for us. AoPS, MUS, Lials, Derek Owens, Horizons, TabletClass, KineticBooks, Chalkdust, Saxon, et al have their fans as well as others who these do not work for. Many including us had to buy and demo several products first before finding a best fit for our unique dc.

 

I recommend demo'ing, buying one or more you think might work. And then take a good look at them. If possible have your dc try these out. If you have a homeschool co-op, friends, or a library with some them that is a way to take a look without buying. Some web based programs have free demos such as KineticBooks, Derek Owens, TabletClass. Don't forget resale value is pretty good for these products. So if you don't like some you can sell them again. I still have Lials lying around. But we sold our old MUS stuff.

 

Don't be too shocked if the one you had your mind set on initially isn't the one which ends up working best for you. That's not to say it couldn't happen. Just be open to testing a few things out if things are not working well vs. saying we're doing X program come hell or high water. ;)

 

This is absolutely what happened with us this year.  I would much rather buy and return or re-sell curriculum than try to suffer through a math program that isn't working for my kid.

 

Derek & Halcyon (and anyone else who has used Tablet Class) - are you saying that you feel the need to do another algebra program after Tablet Class? You don't feel like your dc are ready to move on after completing TC?

 

If so, are you feeling that it is incomplete somehow? Or just looking for more practice for young dc who have plenty of time before moving on?  I've recently taken a look at this program but would really like to here from someone whose kid has finished TC Algebra, about how well/completely it covers Algebra 1 and what they are ready for next.

 

We have TC Pre-Algebra so I just want to chime in and share our experience.  I followed this thread for a year and agonized over what to do with my dd 8th grader this year. She has STRUGGLED with math to the point where she tested at a 4th grade level going into 6th grade.  She used MUS for several years, and while it got the basics done, I had a hard time seeing how it was going to prepare her for higher level math.  So, we purchased TC to use with MUS originally, hoping it would fill in some gaps.  After combing through both curriculum, I decided I wanted to try her in a more "Mainstream" math program.  No harm in trying, right?  So, I thought maybe we'd use TC on it's own, but because my dd had used MUS for several years, she had serious gaps in topics TC assumed she knew.  Just like any math curriculum, if you're switching from one to the other, you need to compare scope and sequence, what gets covered when.  I spent the next month killing myself, searching for an online or video based math that would either A) get her caught up to TC or B) work with TC.  What I ended up with was Saxon Algebra 1/2 and it has worked WONDERFULLY, just not with Tablet Class. Many have commented that Saxon Algebra 1/2 is a wasted year because it spends so much time reviewing and re-teaching basic math and gently introducing Algebra.  They're exactly right, If you have a student that has had no problems with math, and has plugged through whatever program in Elementary School with no major issues, you probably don't need Algebra 1/2.  However, for those that have struggled through, aren't quite ready for Algebra, and/or have some major gaps, this is a great year.  

 

As for TC, I think maybe this summer I might use it as a review to keep her fresh.  She is definitely a, "Use it or lose it" math student and I think TC Pre-Algebra would easily fit into a summer review.  I don't think it's lacking, it's just strictly Pre-Algebra.  Because there is no lead in, or solidifying the basic concepts that a student NEEDS to do Pre-Algebra, a student that has ANY gaps will have issues jumping in IMO. Even the vocabulary used assumes the student knows what the instructor is talking about.  My DD had never learned Absolute Value and negative numbers and while TC seemed to review it, she needed to be TAUGHT it and have it introduced.  There's a big difference between teaching and review.  If you're extremely confident teaching math, you might be able to fill in the gaps.

 

Hopefully that will help another "Fence straddler" get off the fence and take a plunge.  I bought 3 programs this year and it was totally worth it to find the perfect one for us. :)

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

OH and a little PS here, we use Kahn academy with Saxon at least 2-3 times a week.  Best free program EVER!  If I don't know how to explain it, Sal does. :)

[Rosepetal]

We have CD. It is an excellent program. But I am not clear on what the question is exactly.

 

Basic is on level at 6th grade, that is, a review going through everything from adding through to pre-A, though the text used is for remedial college work rather than typical elementary school text, and is equiv to Lial's BCM if you (Rosepetal) are familiar with that, though I much prefer the Auffmann BCM text used with CD.

 

The Aufmann pre-A is again equivalent to Lial's pre-A more or less. If you are trying to complement a 6th grade program,I'd think you'd  start with Basic. If trying to do pre-A start with pre-A. But I am not sure there is any reason to do both SM6 and also CD for 6th. Maybe it is just time to switch to CD if that is what you will be using. ???

Hello,

Thanks Pen....

For Grade 6 what do you prefer to use? Lial's BCM or Auffmann BM text CD?As planning to start CD Pre algebra in Grade 7 ....

Any specific place to buy Lial's BCM or Auffmann BM text CD in Toronto,Canada?