simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 ...and this one makes me so sad. :crying: Sad for the man being shamed and for the Pastor controlling. Everyone loses. http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-gospel-shame-the-truth-about-discipline-excommunication-and-cult-like-control-at-mars-hill/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Well that just makes me feel icky. It reminds me of the recent thread we had on being ostracized by the church, the only difference is Mars Hill actually prints out their punishment for all to see. *shudders* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Well that just makes me feel icky. It reminds me of the recent thread we had on being ostracized by the church, the only difference is Mars Hill actually prints out their punishment for all to see. *shudders* When the JWs disfellowship a person, they it announce from the stage. Generally, the person is in the audience. But, you know, they need to tell the congregation who they can't speak to anymore, right?:glare: I am happy that I never have to watch that again. Edited January 27, 2012 by Sputterduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 ...and this one makes me so sad. :crying: Sad for the man being shamed and for the Pastor controlling. Everyone loses. http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-gospel-shame-the-truth-about-discipline-excommunication-and-cult-like-control-at-mars-hill/ Did you look up all the Scripture references in the letter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caitilin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 :svengo: People believe this dreck and follow that guy? :svengo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merry Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 church were that extreme in church discipline. Poor guy, so young to have to be going through this. Some of my adult children like him for his theology but not for some of his behavior and vulgar talk. Wonder if I should show this article to them or just let them find out on their own. Hmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think it's only one side of the story. An assumption is being made that Andrew is telling the truth about his interactions with the elders. Driscoll can make himself an easy target, but unlike many, I don't automatically assume he's wrong. There is a plan laid out in Scripture for church discipline when a person is in sin--I'd be interested to hear the elders' side on how they feel Andrew behaved when confronted. I guess I don't put much stock in only a partial story, especially one where the author has an obvious bias against the man he's painting in a bad light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Ugh. Been there, done that with a church in Norfolk, Virginia. But without the formal letter. I hate to see that happening to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 He is a pig. A chauvinistic, paternalistic, phallus obsessed pig. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) You know, I had heard, but I've never seen it all go down before and I can't even imagine how this plays out for this poor guy. I really had no idea who Driscoll was. That is icky and horrible and icky and... Simka, you're much farther along than me because all I get is MAD. And now I read the first letter and I'm absolutely disgusted at what they did to him. Edited January 27, 2012 by justamouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoxcell Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think it's only one side of the story. An assumption is being made that Andrew is telling the truth about his interactions with the elders. Driscoll can make himself an easy target, but unlike many, I don't automatically assume he's wrong. There is a plan laid out in Scripture for church discipline when a person is in sin--I'd be interested to hear the elders' side on how they feel Andrew behaved when confronted. I guess I don't put much stock in only a partial story, especially one where the author has an obvious bias against the man he's painting in a bad light. :iagree: It seemed like a very biased blog based on Hearsay since the author wasn't even Andrew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Did you look up all the Scripture references in the letter? Yes, I am very familiar with those verses, and the way in which they are being used. This young man did repent, he just chose to no longer attend the church. No church has the right to say you must repent and as a condition of your repentance you must submit to our standards, for it to be considered true repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 He is a pig. A chauvinistic, paternalistic, phallus obsessed pig. You said it and I agree with your assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I dont need another story to convince me of what sort of human Driscoll is. He has impugned himself with his own words often enough this sort of story is just a frill. Well, I find it no surprise that we disagree. I was just pointing out the obvious bias in the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Church discipline (specifics) should not be an internet story. OP, if you have a problem with Mark Driscoll you should write or call him. I hope this thread gets deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Photo Ninja Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 My heart grieves for this young man. I hope he finds a church that welcomes him in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 So thankful that what is said to a priest, stays with a priest (unless it's a matter of safety). This kind of thing makes me sick. It was not the ENTIRE church's business what his sin was. And when someone wants to be let go, let them go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Church discipline (specifics) should not be an internet story. OP, if you have a problem with Mark Driscoll you should write or call him. I hope this thread gets deleted. Now I am confused. Mark Driscoll posted the church's discipline on the media page. That is the internet :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Church discipline (specifics) should not be an internet story. OP, if you have a problem with Mark Driscoll you should write or call him. I hope this thread gets deleted. Based on what rule?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Now I am confused. Mark Driscoll posted the church's discipline on the media page. That is the internet :confused: No, it was to a closed group of people, who were a part of the community. It wasn't posted on the WWW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Well, I find it no surprise that we disagree. I was just pointing out the obvious bias in the story. Obvious Bias, yes. But I have to say, I'd really really like to know on what grounds Driscoll is announcing Andrew's sin. If he does that alot, he sure as heck better be leading a PERFECT life, because it will come back to bite him in the butt. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I don't remember the reference, but Jesus said it. Had more to say but the kids are fighting. Probably God's way of shutting me up! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 No, it was to a closed group of people, who were a part of the community. It wasn't posted on the WWW. Hmmmm, I would have to give that some thought. It sounds like it was considered the church's Facebook page, that does not sound like a secure private communication. It is my understanding that very little online can be considered private. It is not just the fact that Mark Driscoll did this. I abhor public humiliation in any form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) I think it's only one side of the story. An assumption is being made that Andrew is telling the truth about his interactions with the elders. Driscoll can make himself an easy target, but unlike many, I don't automatically assume he's wrong. There is a plan laid out in Scripture for church discipline when a person is in sin--I'd be interested to hear the elders' side on how they feel Andrew behaved when confronted. I guess I don't put much stock in only a partial story, especially one where the author has an obvious bias against the man he's painting in a bad light. :iagree: I'm not a huge Driscoll fan and yet I'm all for church discipline. The problem with a church of this size is that something that is meant to be a personal one-on-one mentoring and loving discipline of a person becomes impersonal and business-like. At least that's the perspective we are seeing in this post. Instead of really having an intimate sit-down with this young man and helping him through the process of restoration, they treated him like one more issue to be filed away when all the boxes were checked. That isn't pastoring. I think it is IMPOSSIBLE for a pastor to truly pastor people in a mega-church. The other side of that coin is for a church to do nothing. That's what most mega-churches decide. Then you wind up with an usher having an affair with a married woman who then gets pregnant with his baby. She divorces her husband, marries the usher, and the only thing that changes is that she now attends second service while her ex goes to first. And yes, they were in our Sunday School class and I wish for their sake and the sake of all those around them that the church had addressed the problem biblically. There has to be a proper biblical church discipline response that falls in between those two extremes. The most troubling aspect for me about the actual paperwork was the request for intimate details about the sinful behavior. I find that completely unnecessary and really unhelpful. Edited January 27, 2012 by Daisy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Church discipline (specifics) should not be an internet story. OP, if you have a problem with Mark Driscoll you should write or call him. I hope this thread gets deleted. The Pastor himself posted that letter. And it SHOULD be very, very public because the WORLD needs to see what spiritual abuse looks like, so they can stay and away and warn others. And other large pastors should go to Driscoll and tell him he needs to step down and get counseling and get out of the business. Because you shouldn't treat people like that and I'm wondering if this boy can bring a slander lawsuit against him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hmmmm, I would have to give that some thought. It sounds like it was considered the church's Facebook page, that does not sound like a secure private communication. It is my understanding that very little online can be considered private. It is not just the fact that Mark Driscoll did this. I abhor public humiliation in any form. As long as it's on that blog, it's public. If Driscoll has an issue with that then it's with the blog author, not this thread that is chatting about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marylou Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Based on what rule?? “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Self-ex-communication is one of the easier routes to take when someone doesn't want to submit to the elders. This is my last post b/c I don't want to bump this anymore. ETA: Yes, humiliation stinks [ask Ananias and Sapphira]. Good night. Edited January 27, 2012 by dmmosher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 The Pastor himself posted that letter. And it SHOULD be very, very public because the WORLD needs to see what spiritual abuse looks like, so they can stay and away and warn others. And other large pastors should go to Driscoll and tell him he needs to step down and get counseling and get out of the business. Because you shouldn't treat people like that and I'm wondering if this boy can bring a slander lawsuit against him? I thought defamation as soon as I read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Self-ex-communication is one of the easier routes to take when someone doesn't want to submit to the elders. This is my last post b/c I don't want to bump this anymore. I obviously meant board rules since you were calling for thread deletion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector." Self-ex-communication is one of the easier routes to take when someone doesn't want to submit to the elders. This is my last post b/c I don't want to bump this anymore. I'll be glad to keep posting so that people can see exactly what spiritual abuse looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jana Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You all made me do it. Mark Driscoll at his "best." "God hates you....personally, objectively....." You can listen to the rest of it by clicking on the link. When I listen to him talking in this clip, what I really hear him talking about is his own congregants. He would more accurately say, "I hate you...personally, objectively..." Because after all, all theology is biographical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 :iagree: I'm not a huge Driscoll fan and yet I'm all for church discipline. The problem with a church of this size is that something that is meant to be a personal one-on-one mentoring and loving discipline of a person becomes impersonal and business-like. At least that's the perspective we are seeing in this post. Instead of really having an intimate sit-down with this young man and helping him through the process of restoration, they treated him like one more issue to be filed away when all the boxes were checked. That isn't pastoring. I think it is IMPOSSIBLE for a pastor to truly pastor people in a mega-church. The other side of that coin is for a church to do nothing. That's what most mega-churches decide. Then you wind up with an usher having an affair with a married woman who then gets pregnant with his baby. She divorces her husband, marries the usher, and the only thing that changes is that she now attends second service while her ex goes to first. And yes, they were in our Sunday School class and I wish for their sake and the sake of all those around them that the church had addressed the problem biblically. There has to be a proper biblical church discipline response that falls in between those two extremes. The most troubling aspect for me about the actual paperwork was the request for intimate details about the sinful behavior. I find that completely unnecessary and really unhelpful. I agree. It is the extremeness that I find troubling. This man commits some sexual sin and I am guessing loses his fiance over it. I think it is perfectly acceptable for him to go somewhere else for healing and restoration. I do not understand his needing to remain at Mars Hill for it to be real repentance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 As long as it's on that blog, it's public. If Driscoll has an issue with that then it's with the blog author, not this thread that is chatting about it. In the article it talks about how driscoll posted the letter on the church's media page...either that or it was sent out like pm to all members of the church's private social network. Either way, that is a very slippery slope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 Link, please? Here's one http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-goldstein/whos-to-blame-for-pastor-_b_33279.html I am sure there are better ones out there, but the Huffington Post came up first. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You all made me do it. Mark Driscoll at his "best." "God hates you....personally, objectively....." You can listen to the rest of it by clicking on the link. When I listen to him talking in this clip, what I really hear him talking about is his own congregants. He would more accurately say, "I hate you...personally, objectively..." Because after all, all theology is biographical. Wow, he really resents education, doesn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I agree. It is the extremeness that I find troubling. This man commits some sexual sin and I am guessing loses his fiance over it. I think it is perfectly acceptable for him to go somewhere else for healing and restoration. I do not understand his needing to remain at Mars Hill for it to be real repentance. I completely agree. I'm not sure I can word this properly. These mega churches do a pretty good job of making people feel "welcome". Because of that members often think erroneously that people KNOW them. They hit a period in their life of trial whether illness, finances, marital problems, temptation, etc and they think the church will be there for them. In reality the church was never there for them individually. It is impossible. I think Driscoll's church is trying to do something they are truly incapable of doing CORRECTLY because of their size. I think this guy really wanted help and he realized he wasn't a member of a real church being mentored in real relationships but rather a cog in a vast machine. In the end they didn't even know him well enough to know if he was truly repentant or apostate. How sad is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jana Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Wow, he really resents education, doesn't he? Apparently. I'm not sure of the exact quote, but in that clip he says something like, "You know you have a Christian on the run when they start doing a word study." Really? Surely he knows he's reading a translation of another translation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You all made me do it. Mark Driscoll at his "best." "God hates you....personally, objectively....." You can listen to the rest of it by clicking on the link. When I listen to him talking in this clip, what I really hear him talking about is his own congregants. He would more accurately say, "I hate you...personally, objectively..." Because after all, all theology is biographical. Wow. It's like Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God all over again. Only this guy apparently has the red phone and God is complaining and telling Mark who is on the naughty list and how He hates dealing with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 You all made me do it. Mark Driscoll at his "best." "God hates you....personally, objectively....." You can listen to the rest of it by clicking on the link. When I listen to him talking in this clip, what I really hear him talking about is his own congregants. He would more accurately say, "I hate you...personally, objectively..." Because after all, all theology is biographical. I got up to the "God hates you, God is sick of you, God is frustrated with you" garbage and stopped. Can't do it. My very conservative, Pentecostal pastor's favorite saying is "God isn't mad AT you, he's mad ABOUT you." Good pastors are sooo healing after encountering one like Driscoll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 I completely agree. I'm not sure I can word this properly. These mega churches do a pretty good job of making people feel "welcome". Because of that members often think erroneously that people KNOW them. They hit a period in their life of trial whether illness, finances, marital problems, temptation, etc and they think the church will be there for them. In reality the church was never there for them individually. It is impossible. I think Driscoll's church is trying to do something they are truly incapable of doing CORRECTLY because of their size. I think this guy really wanted help and he realized he wasn't a member of a real church being mentored in real relationships but rather a cog in a vast machine. In the end they didn't even know him well enough to know if he was truly repentant or apostate. How sad is that? Exactly! This is why I stated in my OP that it is sad all around. I do not like or think what Driscoll is doing is healthy or healing, but I am sad for him to. I think these types of things need to be exposed and looked at. There has to be a better way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AvasMom Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Apparently. I'm not sure of the exact quote, but in that clip he says something like, "You know you have a Christian on the run when they start doing a word study." Really? Surely he knows he's reading a translation of another translation? I want to see him head to head with Pete Enns. :D He wouldn't be the least bit intimidated by this guy and Driscoll might accidentally learn something. Of course then he'd have to repent of it. I think he must have taken "study to show thyself approved" out of his bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jana Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I got up to the "God hates you, God is sick of you, God is frustrated with you" garbage and stopped. Can't do it. My very conservative, Pentecostal pastor's favorite saying is "God isn't mad AT you, he's mad ABOUT you." Good pastors are sooo healing after encountering one like Driscoll. Anytime a pastor offers healing and reconciliation, I can only say, "Amen." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LG Gone Wild Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Talk about wanting a pound of flesh! Overboard for some hanky-panky don't you think? They were all about the repentance but totally ignored the forgiveness and grace part. Boooooooo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 ...and this one makes me so sad. :crying: Sad for the man being shamed and for the Pastor controlling. Everyone loses. http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-gospel-shame-the-truth-about-discipline-excommunication-and-cult-like-control-at-mars-hill/ Wow! Very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jana Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Talk about wanting a pound of flesh! Overboard for some hanky-panky don't you think? They were all about the repentance but totally ignored the forgiveness and grace part. Boooooooo! The best part? You booed him. Hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetobeme Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 In the end they didn't even know him well enough to know if he was truly repentant or apostate. How sad is that? AMEN! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 :crying: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lluv Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 :iagree: I'm not a huge Driscoll fan and yet I'm all for church discipline. The problem with a church of this size is that something that is meant to be a personal one-on-one mentoring and loving discipline of a person becomes impersonal and business-like. At least that's the perspective we are seeing in this post. Instead of really having an intimate sit-down with this young man and helping him through the process of restoration, they treated him like one more issue to be filed away when all the boxes were checked. That isn't pastoring. I think it is IMPOSSIBLE for a pastor to truly pastor people in a mega-church. The other side of that coin is for a church to do nothing. That's what most mega-churches decide. Then you wind up with an usher having an affair with a married woman who then gets pregnant with his baby. She divorces her husband, marries the usher, and the only thing that changes is that she now attends second service while her ex goes to first. And yes, they were in our Sunday School class and I wish for their sake and the sake of all those around them that the church had addressed the problem biblically. There has to be a proper biblical church discipline response that falls in between those two extremes. :iagree: Very well said Daisy! I would also venture to say, not JUST mega-churches, but an increasing # of churches (big and small) choose to ignore issues altogether instead of exercising discipline in a loving, biblical manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessReplanted Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I think it's only one side of the story. An assumption is being made that Andrew is telling the truth about his interactions with the elders. Driscoll can make himself an easy target, but unlike many, I don't automatically assume he's wrong. There is a plan laid out in Scripture for church discipline when a person is in sin--I'd be interested to hear the elders' side on how they feel Andrew behaved when confronted. I guess I don't put much stock in only a partial story, especially one where the author has an obvious bias against the man he's painting in a bad light. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) :iagree: Very well said Daisy! I would also venture to say, not JUST mega-churches, but an increasing # of churches (big and small) choose to ignore issues altogether instead of exercising discipline in a loving, biblical manner. This whole church discipline thing boggles me. Now, I'm new at the Catholic thing, so perhaps someone who is a cradle Catholic can explain it better, but if I choose to go into confession, it would be of my own will. What is said between the Priest and me is private. If I need to mend something, I'd be asked to do some sort of penance (give that back, say you're sorry, say something nice, don't go there anymore, return the money, stop seeing her) and spend some time in prayer, there, concentrating on what Father gave to you-a verse, something. I would be absolved, right there. No committees, no meetings, no shuffling me around. No contracts, no telling everyone that they're not allowed to talk to me, it's not a jury of my peers (which this all is). I went to confession, I obviously was repentant enough to go--see that's the sticky part. This 'church discipline' stuff, who gets to say when enough is enough? Who can a person go to if they feel the situation is out of control? I could go to my bishop. Who gets to tell Mr. Driscoll he is out of bounds? AND, my confession is private! As it should be! Because public shaming is not what Christ did. Edited January 27, 2012 by justamouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 27, 2012 Author Share Posted January 27, 2012 (edited) Here is part one of the story. Truly breaks my heart http://matthewpaulturner.net/jesus-needs-new-pr/mark-driscolls-church-discipline-contract-looking-for-true-repentance-at-mars-hill-church-sign-on-the-dotted-line/ "Before he agrees to let me share his story, a narrative of events that will be split up into two separate posts–part 1 today and part 2 tomorrow, Andrew says, “I don’t want this to be something I do out of vengeance. But I believe the story needs to be told. I need some more time to think about this; I want to be sure I’m doing this for the right reasons.” Eight days pass before I hear from him again. “I’m ready.” The following is part 1 of Andrew’s story. Shortly after graduating from high school (he was homeschooled), Andrew wanted a change in scenery..." and later, "At this point, despite all of the meetings, conversations, and tear-inducing confessionals that Andrew has engaged (some by choice, some not by choice), Andrew is not under “church discipline”. Nobody has even mentioned it to him as a possibility. That is, until he begins pushing back." This does not sound like a young man who is unrepentant or running from his sins. :( Edited January 27, 2012 by simka2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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