Should I rat out my dd?

[LucyStoner]

Turn off the internet so she can't find anything more online.

[SKL]

Did I read every word of every book throughout high school? It's hard to recall - that was 30 years ago. I certainly did most of the reading, as I enjoyed doing so. I recall at least one case when we got to choose from a booklist, and I chose a book that I'd read before in the Readers' Digest Condensed Version. I tried reading the original version but it was awful and that made it a difficult, slow read. I had a lot of other responsibilities. I'm sure I did not read every word of it. I was disappointed with myself, but I did not consider it a sign of poor character. (There may have been other similar examples - I can't remember. In general I tried to follow the rules, but I forgave myself if I fell short unintentionally.)

 

There were a couple of times when I actually read every word of a book but still did poorly on the book test / book report. If the book is not a good fit for the reader, there's only so much "effort" can do. One time I was supposed to review a book in class. I had finished the book the night before, but the next morning, I was so sleep deprived that I could not remember what I had read. Oh, well! Life goes on.

 

Other times, I've written good papers based on only a small part of a book. I recall one of my favorite college English papers (intended to be humorous) was about how it's hard to swallow the idea that Odysseus was really miserable while imprisoned on Ogygia. It got as good a grade as my usual "serious, comprehensive" papers.

 

I think it may be good to remember that the point of homework assignments is to benefit the student. If she cheats, she is cheating herself, regardless of whether her teacher figures it out. Unless the assignment grade is tied to some reward at the expense of someone who worked harder, it really does not matter in the great scheme of things, except to your daughter.

 

I also think that it may be more valuable for you to drop the negative side of this whole thing (poor planning and lousy damage control), and focus on a positive solution. "OK, so you have discovered that you can't realistically finish the book and then write the paper on time. What CAN you do without losing integrity? How about reading the last chapter so you know how it ends, and then spend some time thinking about what you CAN write about. Preface your paper by saying how much of the book you were able to complete and then provide a well-thought-out, well-written discussion of the part you did read. Trust your teacher to give you a fair grade, and trust yourself to learn from your mistake and improve your grade going forward."

 

I agree that I would cut off the internet access unless internet access is a required part of the assignment.

[Catwoman]

Am I the only one who actually read every book I was assigned in school? Am I just a goody-two-shoes? Honestly, it never occurred to me not to.

 

Tara

 

I'm pretty sure you're the only one. Total goody two-shoes. :tongue_smilie:

 

Honestly, it shocked me that you were so upset over this, because I don't think I went to school with a single kid who didn't fudge a few assignments here and there. (Once I read your reasoning, and realized that this is part of a much larger pattern, I was better able to understand your concern.)

 

Personally, I think your dd will have to work harder to cheat on the assignment than if she would have just read the book. She will have to do quite a bit of research to find out the answers to all of the questions, and then she will have to compile it all into a coherent paper. MUCH harder than reading the book and just "knowing" the answers.

 

I think you've made a wise decision about not telling the teacher. This kid isn't a second grader; her mom has no place ratting her out. Not only would it be mortifying for your dd, it would also probably be quite uncomfortable for the teacher.

 

Overall, I don't think it's wrong to tell your dd that you are disappointed that she didn't do the assignment properly, and I definitely don't think you should give her any help on it at all. Tell her that you would have gladly helped her if she had actually read the book, but that you won't help her cheat.

 

Realistically, though, she may very well learn a big lesson from this whole thing, which is that sometimes it's more work to cheat than it is to do the work the right way.

[Meriwether]

I read every one. I had perfect attendance in some of my college classes. :D

 

:D I distinctly remember complaining about a math lecture to my sister. She told me I didn't have to go to the weekly lecture as long as I went to the smaller class. I was dunbfounded.:001_huh: I admit I read just as much of the Spanish literature as a I had to for an A or B, but by the upper levels that was slow going and I was doing two 700 lit classes that semester. Excuses I know, but sometimes you just do the best you can.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Realistically, though, she may very well learn a big lesson from this whole thing, which is that sometimes it's more work to cheat than it is to do the work the right way.

 

Yep.

[Jenny in Florida]

I'm pretty sure you're the only one. Total goody two-shoes. :tongue_smilie:

 

Nope. Several of us have said we did, too.

 

I understand you may have said this to be funny, but it feels like an "everyone else does it" excuse.

[unsinkable]

Nope. Several of us have said we did, too.

 

I understand you may have said this to be funny, but it feels like an "everyone else does it" excuse.

 

What is the point of taking this part of Cat's post and then responding to it when in the rest of her post (which you didn't quote) contains the meat of her point?

 

This part of Cat's post is a joke...the rest is her valid point.

[SKL]

Nope. Several of us have said we did, too.

 

I understand you may have said this to be funny, but it feels like an "everyone else does it" excuse.

 

While I agree the girl made a poor choice, there is also the reality that we all need to prioritize and some things we "ought to do" will not get done, every day of our lives. Learning how to decide which "shoulds" don't get done is an important part of growing up. Maybe for you the assigned books always got done, but something else didn't - whether it was (is) dust in your corners or neglecting to show kindness to a younger sibling or missing an opportunity to lighten an elderly person's load.

 

"Most everyone does it" is not an excuse, but it bears considering WHY the average person has done this at some time or other, and whether that is a problem in the great scheme of things. I honestly do not think the world has suffered from the fact that I skipped some chapters of the Last of the Mohicans 30+ years ago. I don't think it rises to the level of unforgivable character flaw. In fact, I'm GLAD I made the decision to give up and just move on to more interesting literature.

[KidsHappen]

I wonder whether people would feel differently if their homeschooled child was assigned a paper and given a (long) list of books to choose from, and their homeschooled child didn't read the book they chose, slapped together some ideas and quotes culled from some websites, and turned it in. If my child handed that to me, I'd rip it up and throw it in the trash, and then I'd assign two papers in its place. Honestly, I am surprised that a board full of homeschooling moms thinks what my dd is doing is ok/not worth notifying the teacher about.

 

I'll be done now, too. Off to bed.

 

Tara

 

I think it is because a board full of homeschool mom's know that any teacher worth their salt would figured out what happened and deal out appropriate consequences. Unfortunately, it is not given that the teacher will be worth her salt and deal out the appropriate consequences therefore letting the child learn from her mistakes. I personally would not help with the paper and let her stress about it and possibly get a bad grade hoping that she would learn from the experience.

 

On the other hand, I have no patience for teachers assigning busy work that they have no intention of actually reading and grading. One year one of my dds had to write a short paper for science class every week. I would help edit for grammar, punctuation and machanics but not for content. However, by doing this I became aware that my dd was not doing the best that she could do or even in some cases even putting forth adequate effort and yet she was consistantly getting A's on all of her papers. I looked at the rubric and realized that the teacher was only grading for certain items like name, class, period, number of paragraphs, number of sources, number of new vocabulary words, etc. It was my strong suspicion that the teacher was not reading the content at all. So while reviewing one of my dd's papers I inserted the line, "You aren't even reading this are you?" As usual the child came home with an A and no comment. Suddenly that science paper became a very low priority in our house.

 

I was an excellent student but I did not put forth my best effort in every class. I put forth exactly enough effort to get an A. In some classes that meant quite a bit of effort whereas in other classes it wasn't very much effort at all. I learned to prioritize and put forth the most effort in the classes where it meant the most and less effort in the classes where it really didn't matter. That is something that each child (or even adult) has to learn for themselves. Hopefully if she does a poor job on the paper she will get called on it and get a poor grade and learn a vaulable lesson.

[Remudamom]

I wouldn't let her get away with it. The lesson she learns won't be a good one.

[Jenny in Florida]

What is the point of taking this part of Cat's post and then responding to it when in the rest of her post (which you didn't quote) contains the meat of her point?

 

This part of Cat's post is a joke...the rest is her valid point.

 

It irks me to hear people defend accepting low standards because "everyone does it." It irks me even when it's supposed to be funny.

 

I acknowledged that I thought she was probably making a joke. But the "joke" prompted my response. There was no reason to quote the rest of it, since it wasn't relevant to my point.

[Bootsie]

I would:

 

(1) not give her the help she asked me for until she could show me that she read the book

(2) not tell the teacher. If the teacher catches it, your daughter will learn a valuable lesson. If the teacher doesn't catch it, you know something about the teacher's expectations.

(3) have consequences at home for not finishing the book, since I knew that she did not finish the book that she was assigned

[SKL]

I would:

 

(3) have consequences at home for not finishing the book, since I knew that she did not finish the book that she was assigned

 

I was thinking this too. My kids are a lot younger, but for them, Mr. DS would be going on a vacation, for starters. The point of the consequences would be to help dd develop the habit of making enough time to complete homework assignments before they are due.

[Jean in Newcastle]

It irks me to hear people defend accepting low standards because "everyone does it." It irks me even when it's supposed to be funny.

 

I acknowledged that I thought she was probably making a joke. But the "joke" prompted my response. There was no reason to quote the rest of it, since it wasn't relevant to my point.

 

I don't know about others, but I'm not defending it because everyone does it. But I realize that not everything in life is done perfectly. In fact, for me at least, not everything in life can be done perfectly. So you learn how to prioritize assignments and tasks. You learn how to take some acceptable (not plagiarism!) shortcuts like skimming for important point. I've learned that sometimes in life you don't do you best because you didn't plan correctly (this would be a good example of this) and you have to just do your best regardless. Sometimes that means that I've skated where I shouldn't have but I don't think that is the worst thing ever. I still had stress and I still vowed not to do it again, even though I was wiping my brow going "whew!"

[unsinkable]

It irks me to hear people defend accepting low standards because "everyone does it." It irks me even when it's supposed to be funny.

 

I acknowledged that I thought she was probably making a joke. But the "joke" prompted my response. There was no reason to quote the rest of it, since it wasn't relevant to my point.

 

Fine. It wasn't relevant to your point.

 

But what you did is akin to reviewing a keynote speech based on the opening remarks when the speaker tells a joke to warm up the audience.

[Jenny in Florida]

Fine. It wasn't relevant to your point.

 

But what you did is akin to reviewing a keynote speech based on the opening remarks when the speaker tells a joke to warm up the audience.

 

I truly don't see that.

 

The remainder of her post went on to explain that she thought Tara was over-reacting and not being realistic. I don't think the joke out of context says anything different.

 

Nor was my post presented as a "review" of hers. I made a comment about a portion of her comment. I snipped and included the portion to which I was responding.

 

She said something. I said something. That was really all. I don't think it's nearly as big a deal as you seem to think.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't know about others, but I'm not defending it because everyone does it. But I realize that not everything in life is done perfectly. In fact, for me at least, not everything in life can be done perfectly. So you learn how to prioritize assignments and tasks. You learn how to take some acceptable (not plagiarism!) shortcuts like skimming for important point. I've learned that sometimes in life you don't do you best because you didn't plan correctly (this would be a good example of this) and you have to just do your best regardless. Sometimes that means that I've skated where I shouldn't have but I don't think that is the worst thing ever. I still had stress and I still vowed not to do it again, even though I was wiping my brow going "whew!"

 

Well, my comment was not directed at you and was not in response to anything you said.

 

And I don't disagree, in general, that we all have to prioritize and take an occasional shortcut.

 

I've even admitted to doing it, myself. (See my comments about Billy Budd and D. H. Lawrence.)

 

What I think is different in the situation presented here is that I don't get the impression we're dealing with a kid who is just overwhelmed, so busy doing other, important things that she really couldn't do this assignment. The way Tara has described it is that her daughter chose this book from a list, waited until it was too late to do the assignment properly, and is now asking her mother to help her cover up the mistake.

 

This, to me, feels like a very different thing from saying, for example, "Wow, our son really had trouble with his math lesson today, and I ended up spending way more time than I anticipated helping him. So, instead of the from-scratch meal I had planned to make, I'll have to open a couple of cans." This is someone saying, more or less, "Gee, I had plenty of time to make dinner today but decided I'd rather do something else. So, I think you should make it for me."

 

The first is understandable. The second is not acceptable (at least to me, although I seem to be in the minority).

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, my comment was not directed at you and was not in response to anything you said.

 

And I don't disagree, in general, that we all have to prioritize and take an occasional shortcut.

 

I've even admitted to doing it, myself. (See my comments about Billy Budd and D. H. Lawrence.)

 

What I think is different in the situation presented here is that I don't get the impression we're dealing with a kid who is just overwhelmed, so busy doing other, important things that she really couldn't do this assignment. The way Tara has described it is that her daughter chose this book from a list, waited until it was too late to do the assignment properly, and is now asking her mother to help her cover up the mistake.

 

This, to me, feels like a very different thing from saying, for example, "Wow, our son really had trouble with his math lesson today, and I ended up spending way more time than I anticipated helping him. So, instead of the from-scratch meal I had planned to make, I'll have to open a couple of cans." This is someone saying, more or less, "Gee, I had plenty of time to make dinner today but decided I'd rather do something else. So, I think you should make it for me."

 

The first is understandable. The second is not acceptable (at least to me, although I seem to be in the minority).

 

I don't think that most people would recommend that Tara actually help her dd cover up the mistake. I think I saw only one poster say that she should help her and it wasn't Cat. I think that most people are saying that Tara should step back and let her daughter deal with the consequences of her poor planning. She might get away with it if she is able to fudge or bluff her way through but as Cat specifically pointed out (and I did earlier) that takes a certain amount of finesse and skill and is a lot more work.

[Jenny in Florida]

I don't think that most people would recommend that Tara actually help her dd cover up the mistake. I think I saw only one poster say that she should help her and it wasn't Cat. I think that most people are saying that Tara should step back and let her daughter deal with the consequences of her poor planning. She might get away with it if she is able to fudge or bluff her way through but as Cat specifically pointed out (and I did earlier) that takes a certain amount of finesse and skill and is a lot more work.

 

I suspect that "finesse and skill" thing is probably overstated. Given what I've seen getting by in my kids' friends' schoolwork, I seriously doubt the teacher will even notice.

 

And, if it were my kid, I wouldn't want to leave that to chance.

 

Tara's post have made it clear that her daughter did try to get her to essentially give her the answers.

 

I think what bothered me about Cat's post was the normalization of slacking. What she seemed to me to be saying was, "Don't be so uptight. Everybody does it. You're the only one who actually read the books. Take a chill pill." (Heavily paraphrased, obviously.)

 

It was that to which I was responding.

 

Also, from my point of view, if it were my kid: The fact that my daughter tried to get away without reading the book would bug me, but I might not get involved in certain circumstance. In Tara's case, her daughter attempted to involve her in the situation. That, for me, is when I would take ownership of the situation.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[Aelwydd]

Ok, this thread almost lost me, but I think I've got the gist of it.

 

 

 

1. Keynote speech jokes are offensive in the extreme;

 

2. Lots of people here were cheaters and didn't do it, but they

should

have done it, and;

 

3. Next time I am faced with Catcher in the Rye, my choices are to read it or open up Can of Dinner instead.

 

Did I get that right? Yes, I should have read this thread more carefully, but the characters are awful, and the plot is totally meandering.

[Jenny in Florida]

Ok, this thread almost lost me, but I think I've got the gist of it.

 

 

1. Keynote speech jokes are offensive in the extreme;

 

2. Lots of people here were cheaters and didn't do it, but they

should

have done it, and;

 

3. Next time I am faced with Catcher in the Rye, my choices are to read it or open up Can of Dinner instead.

Did I get that right? Yes, I should have read this thread more carefully, but the characters are awful, and the plot is totally meandering.

 

Again, I'm assuming this is supposed to be funny?

 

1. Neither I nor anyone else whose comments I read said anything was "offensive."

2. I agree with this point, even when it's about me.

3. Nope. I've never gotten around to reading Moby Dick. I don't like the book. I guess I don't understand why it's okay for you to say a book has no redeeming qualities but not for me to say I liked it. Obviously, I'm missing something. (And I've also been known to open a can of dinner, by the way, which is certainly something I've shared here more than once. I was using an analogy to contrast two situations.)

 

You do realize you're a character in the thread, too, right?

[Haiku]

 

If I decided to tell the teacher, I'd do it with my daughter's 100% full knowledge.

 

Well, yes, I never said I would sneak and do it, and I even mentioned in one of my posts that I would tell my dd I did it. I'm not afraid of my dd being angry with me. If she doesn't like that she was caught cheating and had to face the consequences, well, she should have known better to begin with.

 

But, I didn't actually inform the teacher.

 

Tara

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ok, this thread almost lost me, but I think I've got the gist of it.

 

 

 

1. Keynote speech jokes are offensive in the extreme;

 

2. Lots of people here were cheaters and didn't do it, but they

should

have done it, and;

 

3. Next time I am faced with Catcher in the Rye, my choices are to read it or open up Can of Dinner instead.

 

Did I get that right? Yes, I should have read this thread more carefully, but the characters are awful, and the plot is totally meandering.

 

She is trying to lighten up the thread. Aelwydd, I give you an A for effort;) but then I'm a tough grader so you might have to wait until report card time for the real grade.:D

[Aelwydd]

Again, I'm assuming this is supposed to be funny?

 

I wouldn't dare!

 

1. Neither I nor anyone else whose comments I read said anything was "offensive."

2. I agree with this point, even when it's about me.

3. Nope. I've never gotten around to reading Moby Dick. I don't like the book. I guess I don't understand why it's okay for you to say a book has no redeeming qualities but not for me to say I liked it. Obviously, I'm missing something. (And I've also been known to open a can of dinner, by the way, which is certainly something I've shared here more than once. I was using an analogy to contrast two situations.)

I'm missing something, too. When did whales enter this story?!

 

You do realize you're a character in the thread, too, right?

So, self-deprecation is out with keynote speech jokes? Nobody even told me.

[Aelwydd]

She is trying to lighten up the thread. Aelwydd, I give you an A for effort;) but then I'm a tough grader so you might have to wait until report card time for the real grade.:D

 

Do I get bonus points for honesty? :D

[Trish]

She's 17.5. She has to write a paper for school analyzing a book she was supposed to read. She asked me for some help on it.

 

It became clear she had not finished the book.

 

She is on chapter 4 of an 11-chapter book, and the paper is due on Wednesday.

 

She has no intention of finishing the book and is writing her paper based on things she finds on the internet.

 

Dh does not want me to tell her teacher because we are dealing with a major issue with her right now for which she is already in much trouble at home. Basically, Dh (as he told me) wants to take the easy path, not the right one.

 

As for me, I am offended that she is cheating and lying, and I see this as directly connected to the home-based issue we are dealing with. I think I should tell her teacher.

 

What do you think?

 

Tara

 

If the purpose of telling the teacher is to punish her, I'd skip the intermediary and punish her myself. But, she still has time to read it, so why not encourage that? If she won't, I guess you have to decide how important this is in the grand scheme of things. Maybe put yourself in her shoes: are there any shortcuts that YOU take in life that someone could talk you out of? If so, what argument would work?

 

Or you could deliver consequences. But in light of some other, bigger issue going on with your daughter at the same time, I don't know if it's worth it. Also, it's probably the last time she's honest with you about her schoolwork.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Do I get bonus points for honesty? :D

 

Definitely. The main point seems to be about character and honesty, after all. (I got that from skimming it.)

[unsinkable]

A man walks into a bar and says to the bartender, "Drinks for all on me. That is including you, bartender."

 

The bartender follows the man's order and says, "That will be $42.50 please."

 

The man says he has no money, and the bartender slaps him around and throws him out.

 

The next night, the man comes in and orders a drink for everyone in the bar including the bartender. Again, the bartender follows the man's instructions and the man says he has no money. So the bartender slaps him around and throws him out.

 

On the third night he comes in, the man orders drinks for everyone except the bartender.

 

The bartender says, "What, no drink for me?"

 

"Oh, no. You get violent when you drink."

 

:lol:

[laundrycrisis]

Did I get that right? Yes, I should have read this thread more carefully, but the characters are awful, and the plot is totally meandering.

 

:rofl:

[Haiku]

 

I was an excellent student but I did not put forth my best effort in every class. I put forth exactly enough effort to get an A. In some classes that meant quite a bit of effort whereas in other classes it wasn't very much effort at all.

 

You have beautifully articulated one of my prime reasons for homeschooling. I do not want this type of education for my children. Unfortunately, with dd17, homeschooling was never a viable option.

 

I guess I need to accept the fact that in choosing school for her, I chose this attitude and approach to education.

 

Tara

[SKL]

Also, from my point of view, if it were my kid: The fact that my daughter tried to get away without reading the book would bug me, but I might not get involved in certain circumstance. In Tara's case, her daughter attempted to involve her in the situation. That, for me, is when I would take ownership of the situation.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "take ownership," but if you mean it the way I'm hearing it, I think that's an invalid view of parenting a teen. A near-adult needs to "own" her dealings with her teachers.

[Haiku]

(3) have consequences at home for not finishing the book, since I knew that she did not finish the book that she was assigned

 

I guess I see it the other way around. If I'm not going to tell the teacher, I have no business punishing her at home. She's not doing the paper for my benefit, but for hers, in an academic setting that's beyond my sphere of influence (according to a lot of responses on this thread). If I shouldn't tell the teacher, I think I should just let it go. Aside from the fact that I will again mention to her that I disapprove of what she did and think it's cheating and dishonestly/deception.

 

Btw, although dd is 17.5, she is still a junior. We started her in school a grade behind her peers when we put her in school because she was a pre-teen working at a 2nd-grade level (due to inconsistent schooling in the orphanage. By way of example of her academic level when she joined us at age 11, she did not know how to add zero to a number and had to use her fingers to add one to a number, and she had never heard of England, Egypt, Mexico, Canada, etc. She knew one country that bordered hers, hers, the United States, and China. She didn't know that there were other countries in the world).

 

Tara

[Haiku]

Ok, this thread almost lost me, but I think I've got the gist of it.

 

 

 

1. Keynote speech jokes are offensive in the extreme;

 

2. Lots of people here were cheaters and didn't do it, but they

should

have done it, and;

 

3. Next time I am faced with Catcher in the Rye, my choices are to read it or open up Can of Dinner instead.

 

Did I get that right? Yes, I should have read this thread more carefully, but the characters are awful, and the plot is totally meandering.

 

:lol:

 

Tara

[Teachin'Mine]

:lol:

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

I'm soooo glad you're laughing at that!!! I thought it was hysterical and was about to post that but made the mistake of reading through some posts ...

 

The plot thickens!!! :tongue_smilie:

[Catwoman]

I think what bothered me about Cat's post was the normalization of slacking. What she seemed to me to be saying was, "Don't be so uptight. Everybody does it. You're the only one who actually read the books. Take a chill pill." (Heavily paraphrased, obviously.)

 

It was that to which I was responding.

 

 

Jenny, I honestly didn't mean to offend or annoy you in any way, but I have to say that I think you're reading a lot into my post that wasn't there. (I even put the little smiley guy emoticon after the goody two-shoes part so everyone would know I was just kidding around with Tara.)

 

I never said that it was OK for Tara's dd not to have read the book. Ever. But I did say that almost everyone I knew did pretty much what she did, at least once or twice. And it's not the end of the world. She's not cheating on her Application for Sainthood; it's one school assignment, and in most cases, that's not a federal offense that will lead a perfectly nice 17.5 yo kid into a life of crime and serial killing.

 

I also pointed out that, in Tara's case, I perfectly understood her concerns because her dd has a history of dishonesty, and this is yet another instance of it. I didn't think she should contact the teacher, but I also didn't think she should help her dd with the assignment.

 

Again, I'm sorry if what I posted was offensive to you. But I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill here, because I truly don't believe that one fudged school assignment is evidence of a kid with a bad character.

 

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. :001_smile: (BTW, I totally agreed with you in the chores thread. Do I at least get a few brownie points for that? ;))

[Haiku]

If the purpose of telling the teacher is to punish her, I'd skip the intermediary and punish her myself.

 

No, not to punish, to curtail her from being dishonest and deceitful.

 

Maybe put yourself in her shoes: are there any shortcuts that YOU take in life

 

Absolutely, but I don't take shortcuts that involve deception. Nor do I take credit for other people's efforts.

 

Tara

[SKL]

Btw, although dd is 17.5, she is still a junior. We started her in school a grade behind her peers when we put her in school because she was a pre-teen working at a 2nd-grade level (due to inconsistent schooling in the orphanage. By way of example of her academic level when she joined us at age 11, she did not know how to add zero to a number and had to use her fingers to add one to a number, and she had never heard of England, Egypt, Mexico, Canada, etc. She knew one country that bordered hers, hers, the United States, and China. She didn't know that there were other countries in the world).

 

 

I did notice that you'd mentioned she was in an orphanage. Sounds like she may have some baggage that is making things hard for your family in many ways. :grouphug: I am sure it's hard seeing her so close to adulthood and still having so much room for improvement. Regardless of how you deal with this particular infraction, your overt concern about character and honesty will be reflected in the adult she will become - though you may not see it for a while.

[Catwoman]

If I shouldn't tell the teacher, I think I should just let it go. Aside from the fact that I will again mention to her that I disapprove of what she did and think it's cheating and dishonestly/deception.

 

Tara

 

I think that is the perfect response to the situation, Tara. :001_smile:

[Haiku]

a perfectly nice 17.5 yo kid

 

You've obviously never met my dd. ;)

 

Tara

[Catwoman]

You've obviously never met my dd. ;)

 

Tara

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Am I the only one who actually read every book I was assigned in school? Am I just a goody-two-shoes? Honestly, it never occurred to me not to.

 

Tara

 

No you're not the only one. I read all but one book all the way through grad school. The only one I couldn't make it through was Grapes of Wrath.

 

On the other hand, I did not do all of my physics or electrical engineering or calculus homework. I wish I had skimmed a bit more of what was fun and easy (for me) and learned to knuckle down on what challenged me. I wish I'd learned how to ask for help and take advantage of the extra tutoring available. I wish I'd learned how to recognize that I was struggling and do something other than just despair.

 

That might be the lesson for your dd.

[TravelingChris]

NO, I wouldn't tell the teacher but I would have some consequences at home, whatever they were for the dishonesty.

 

BUt one thing I am concerned about- have you been discussing with this daughter good options for after high school. By the level of work she is doing as a junior, and her attitude towards work, I can't see her becoming an MD without a huge change. To get into med school, a student needs very high grades in classes in college and a number of those are difficult classes- CHemistry, Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc. Normally the people you see going into an MD program were the very hardworking kids, not ones who couldn't even get through an elementary or midschool level book. Some talk about the work ethic needed to become a doctor may serve to motivate her or could make her give up. You know her best.

 

Being a mother is hard at times so here is a :grouphug:.

[Bootsie]

I guess I see it the other way around. If I'm not going to tell the teacher, I have no business punishing her at home. She's not doing the paper for my benefit, but for hers, in an academic setting that's beyond my sphere of influence (according to a lot of responses on this thread). If I shouldn't tell the teacher, I think I should just let it go. Aside from the fact that I will again mention to her that I disapprove of what she did and think it's cheating and dishonestly/deception.

 

Btw, although dd is 17.5, she is still a junior. We started her in school a grade behind her peers when we put her in school because she was a pre-teen working at a 2nd-grade level (due to inconsistent schooling in the orphanage. By way of example of her academic level when she joined us at age 11, she did not know how to add zero to a number and had to use her fingers to add one to a number, and she had never heard of England, Egypt, Mexico, Canada, etc. She knew one country that bordered hers, hers, the United States, and China. She didn't know that there were other countries in the world).

 

Tara

 

What I meant by a "consequence" was if I found out that my child was not doing school work assigned and I felt that the child was still young enough to need my guidance and oversight, I would take the stand of "Apparently you are having trouble with the self-discipline required to do your assigned work; I have a responsibility to make sure that you are educated. For the time being, you will report to me every evening about the status of your work....or you have no TV until your book is read...or something else" I see this more as helping her build the character and skills needed rather than "punishing".

 

I might also have some consequence for "wasting my time" asking for help with something for which my child had not already put forth a reasonable amount of effort.

 

I think the evaluation and grading of the work is the teacher's responsibility, which is a different issue

[Catwoman]

No you're not the only one. I read all but one book all the way through grad school. The only one I couldn't make it through was Grapes of Wrath.

 

 

Fortunately, there was a movie version of that, which is just like reading, because you're still using your eyes to see it. And really, it's multi-sensory, what with all of the talking and everything, so it's like getting double the education. Way better than just reading a silly old book, when you sit down and think about it.

 

And I believe there were also Cliffs Notes for Grapes of Wrath. That's actual reading, only shorter than the book, but still reading, nonetheless.

 

Not that I would have ever used either of them. That would have been wrong. :D

 

(And before anyone gets mad at me, I would like to add the disclaimer that I'm just kidding. Kidding. That's all. No hidden meanings here! :tongue_smilie:)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

NO, I wouldn't tell the teacher but I would have some consequences at home, whatever they were for the dishonesty.

 

BUt one thing I am concerned about- have you been discussing with this daughter good options for after high school. By the level of work she is doing as a junior, and her attitude towards work, I can't see her becoming an MD without a huge change. To get into med school, a student needs very high grades in classes in college and a number of those are difficult classes- CHemistry, Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc. Normally the people you see going into an MD program were the very hardworking kids, not ones who couldn't even get through an elementary or midschool level book. Some talk about the work ethic needed to become a doctor may serve to motivate her or could make her give up. You know her best.

 

Being a mother is hard at times so here is a :grouphug:.

 

I might even go so far as to point out that she missed an opportunity to get a feel for the backgrounds of some of her potential future patients. To begin to see why there are some communities that are quite distrustful of the medical profession (Tuskeegee experiments). Or who are reluctant to participate in health tracking surveys. And that their reasons aren't totally unjustified.

[Haiku]

BUt one thing I am concerned about- have you been discussing with this daughter good options for after high school. By the level of work she is doing as a junior, and her attitude towards work, I can't see her becoming an MD without a huge change. To get into med school, a student needs very high grades in classes in college and a number of those are difficult classes- CHemistry, Organic Chemistry, Physics, Biology, etc. Normally the people you see going into an MD program were the very hardworking kids, not ones who couldn't even get through an elementary or midschool level book. Some talk about the work ethic needed to become a doctor may serve to motivate her or could make her give up. You know her best.

 

 

Oh, yes, absolutely. At the risk of being one of those horrible parents who doesn't believe their child can anything they want, I will be completely shocked and gobsmacked if dd gets into medical school and becomes a doctor. My 4th grader reads better than dd17 and has for a few years. Dd17 failed math and science last year. She doesn't like to read and claims she doesn't like science classes. She complained all fall that she had no free time because she had to go to soccer every day (she chose to play for the varsity team). She's (as dh has described her to me but never to dd's face) "a minimal-effort kinda girl." I honestly have a hard time seeing dd even graduating from college, regardless med school.

 

We have talked quite a bit with dd about the types of things someone needs to do to succeed in college and med school. We have encouraged dd to take some steps that would put her on that path. She has pretty much declined to do anything we've suggested. After she failed math and science, she went through a brief period where she felt that maybe med school wasn't the best option, so she was going to go to law school. :001_huh: Now she's back to the med school idea. Her school doesn't help because although she has a low-C average, they keep telling her that med school is a real possibility.

 

I have never told dd she can't do something. I have tried to help her realistically assess the situation and focused my comments on how I didn't see med school being a good fit for dd's interests and preferences as to lifestyle.

 

Tara

Edited January 24, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[KidsHappen]

You have beautifully articulated one of my prime reasons for homeschooling. I do not want this type of education for my children. Unfortunately, with dd17, homeschooling was never a viable option.

 

I guess I need to accept the fact that in choosing school for her, I chose this attitude and approach to education.

 

Tara

 

Do you expect her to put forth her best effort at everything she does? Because I don't see that as realistic or even practical. I also feel that it could lead to burn out and maybe even depression when a person realizes that they can't do their best at everything. I think that eventually in life you have to learn to prioritize and put the most effort into the things that are the most important to you. For instance, educating my children and being a good wife are more important to me than having a emaculant house. So I put most of my effort into those pursuits and do a passable job on house cleaning with the energy I have left.

 

I am not saying that my way is right and your way is wrong. I am just trying to give you a different perspective on things and point out that maybe that assignment isn't a priority for her because she knows that her efforts are of little consequence in regards to her actual grade. I would hope that it wasn't so but I wouldn't have confidence that that would be the case and it can be discouraging to put a lot of effort into something that ultimately doesn't matter and is not appreciated. In any case, you know your dd and the situation better than the rest of us and ultimately it is your opinion that counts. I wish you the best of luck in finding a workable solution.

[Haiku]

For instance, educating my children and being a good wife are more important to me than having a emaculant house.

 

Hear, hear!!

 

I guess I just have a hard time with the idea that she views her education as chasing the grade and not as becoming educated. I really am not the uptight freak I have probably come across as in this thread ... I'm just sorry that dd doesn't tend to see the value in learning for learning's sake or a job well done being its own reward.

 

But then again ... dd is an extremely concrete thinker. Abstract ideas like those are difficult for her to understand. And I say that in all seriousness.

 

But your point is well taken. I agree with you, mostly. I honestly wish dd would just tell her teacher, "I didn't read the book. I wrote the paper anyway. Here it is." It's not so much that she didn't read the book ... it's that she's trying to make her teacher believe that she did.

 

Tara

[Aelwydd]

Hear, hear!!

 

I guess I just have a hard time with the idea that she views her education as chasing the grade and not as becoming educated. I really am not the uptight freak I have probably come across as in this thread ... I'm just sorry that dd doesn't tend to see the value in learning for learning's sake or a job well done being its own reward.

 

I say this in all seriousness. Because I agree with you that it sounds like she's not motivated to finish any degree right now, maybe she should join a military branch. I considered joining the Air Force when I was her age (my mother threw a fit though, and I didn't pursue it).

 

College is so expensive, it's not something I'd tell her to do, just to have gone. If she's not going to put in the hard work for it, maybe she could use a boot to her, um, hind quarters, so-to-speak. Military service would probably give her direction, give her productive work, and it's very concrete! :)

 

Also, she can get credit for college later.

 

Just a thought. I know that it's not for some families.

 

Another option - maybe something like Americorps? It would give her experience, and again, educational credit.

[Catwoman]

I guess I just have a hard time with the idea that she views her education as chasing the grade and not as becoming educated. I really am not the uptight freak I have probably come across as in this thread ... I'm just sorry that dd doesn't tend to see the value in learning for learning's sake or a job well done being its own reward.

 

I think part of her attitude is due to the fact that she's still young. I would guess that a great many high school students (and probably college students, as well,) are "in it for the grade," rather than for the joy of learning. It doesn't mean she will always be that way.

 

As she matures, your dd will probably view things differently, but for now, I don't think she is particularly unusual, and I don't think it's anything to worry about.