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Why does it seem that no one goes on to use SM beyond level 5 or 6?


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It seems like most people talk about switching programs for higher math. The Singapore method is working really well for my son, he is only in level 2b, but if it works I figured I would stick with it. Is there a reason people switch?

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I think I asked this question a few years ago. :001_smile:

Some possible reasons-

-wanting to follow a more traditional s&s (Singapore integrates algebra, geometry)

-not as much teacher support in the upper levels as the primary series

 

We are using NEM1 right now.

 

eta link discussing nem http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41554&highlight=nem

I wonder how Myrtle is doing.

Edited by Jen3boys
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Singapore has more than one secondary series (for grades 7-10), and they are all integrated (not split into Alg/Geometry etc.) I used Singapore's DM for 7th grade, and really liked it. But I decided to go with a more traditional US sequence - my dd is in Foersters Algebra this year.

 

The DM was deep and challenging. I really liked it. Even the Foersters (said to be a very rigorous US text) seems lite after that. We're supplementing with AoPS' Alcumus to keep up some of the extra depth.

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I understand that it is set up different, I think I would go with DM if I had to pick now. It just seems that if the method works, why not stick with it, it may make transcripts more complicated, but I guess I still don't see how the different scope and sequence would cause that many problems. I personally hated geometry and would rather have it spread out a bit instead of the focus of a full year.

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I understand that it is set up different, I think I would go with DM if I had to pick now. It just seems that if the method works, why not stick with it, it may make transcripts more complicated, but I guess I still don't see how the different scope and sequence would cause that many problems. I personally hated geometry and would rather have it spread out a bit instead of the focus of a full year.

 

You replied to my thread about transcripts and DM (on the logic board). :001_smile:

 

I have the same question!

 

Also, for geometry, I thought I read that DM uses Geometer's Sketchpad - I looked at it online and GS looks very interesting!

 

The new edition of TWTM has a section about Singapore in the higher grades. I need to get the book out and see what SWB says.

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You replied to my thread about transcripts and DM (on the logic board). :001_smile:

 

I have the same question!

 

Also, for geometry, I thought I read that DM uses Geometer's Sketchpad - I looked at it online and GS looks very interesting!

 

The new edition of TWTM has a section about Singapore in the higher grades. I need to get the book out and see what SWB says.

 

I love the program! I have compared the higher math programs they have, I really think it is great. If the s&s is the main thing makingpeople switch...I guess I just don't see the issue.

 

I think that listing the subjects covered without years would easily solve the problem.

OK...I am a lawyer so I should probably know this is wrong, but if you are going to do the sequence a little differently (like SM), but everything is going to be covered, can't you just call the first year algebra, then geometry, then trig, etc?
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OK...I am a lawyer so I should probably know this is wrong, but if you are going to do the sequence a little differently (like SM), but everything is going to be covered, can't you just call the first year algebra, then geometry, then trig, etc?

 

:iagree: You could just list the classes on the transcript by subjects, Simple! :)

 

And if Singapore is working I would stick with it, the only reason I switched dd13 was because it wasn't working anymore.

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I switched for a few reasons:

 

1. The lack of teacher support. I just did not have the confidence teaching at the higher levels.

 

2. My son was confused by the lack of explanation. He does better with deeper explanations - he's not one of those who learns by working the problems.

 

3. With 4 younger kids, I really needed something that was less hands-on for me.

 

Chalkdust Algebra I has been a perfect fit.

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If the s&s is the main thing makingpeople switch...I guess I just don't see the issue.

 

You're making the assumption that the family using the program intends to HS all the way through 12th. Many families end up enrolling their student in a traditional high school. A student who will or might be entering a school with a traditional sequence would need to switch to a regular sequence after DM1/NEM1 in 7th.

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I think you'd be fine (for college transcripts AND for transferring into ps high school) to call it integrated math I,II, III, etc. I'm basing this on the new common core standards that many of the states are adopting. The math standards list two approved paths. The traditional path is alg. I, geometry, etc. the alternative path is an integrated program and is listed as Math I, Math II, etc. So I think you would be fine either way. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I haven't run that by a single high school or college official, so my reasoning could be a little off! :tongue_smilie:

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I think you'd be fine (for college transcripts AND for transferring into ps high school) to call it integrated math I,II, III, etc. I'm basing this on the new common core standards that many of the states are adopting. The math standards list two approved paths. The traditional path is alg. I, geometry, etc. the alternative path is an integrated program and is listed as Math I, Math II, etc. So I think you would be fine either way. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I haven't run that by a single high school or college official, so my reasoning could be a little off! :tongue_smilie:

 

Are YOU planning to use DM? I also have a thread on the logic board about it. I can't find anyone who's actually used it and can give me a review of it. I'm looking through the samples/scope and sequence and it looks very (for lack of a better word) rigorous. It also looks more straightforward than AoPS and it seems to start at a higher level.

 

On the Singapore website, their DM 1B textbook is out of stock...so there has to be s o m e b o d y out there who has used it!

 

:(

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I'm using DM with my gifted eldest son (13). He is currently working on DM1B. It was very easy to transition to this from the Singapore Standards Elementary books. We also use the Question Bank in order to create tests for each unit. Math is something which I am very good at and so far I haven't had any difficulties teaching/solving problems. I also purchased AOPS pre-alg because of all the posts I had read and I do not use it as I find it much too wordy for my son. (Actually I did use it to introduce Pythagorean Theorem as it is not introduced by DM until book 2 and I wanted to ensure that he knew it prior to entering public high school next year.)

 

As far as content, I am very happy with it. I am in Ontario, Canada and here our math is integrated up to grade 9 so I had no concerns about teaching with DM. I have a daughter in grade 10 at the public high school. She did not learn some of the things that my son has learned through DM until grade 9. I do plan on continuing to use DM with my youngest son (11) until he enters high school.

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Im planning on using it. Im going to get the first book and see if it works out for us but Lial's algebra is always an option I guess.

 

AoPS is not. It is way too verbose.

 

I don't want to take over the thread...:leaving: My daughter is very "no nonsense" about math. She does not want to read about math...or do math problems with alot of words. She just wants to get down to business and solve the problem. She tried LOF and it just irritated her. She seems to prefer Singapore/Math Mammoth more than anything.

 

I guess we'll finish MM and try DM.

 

 

Edited to say: Thank-you, Trez for posting your review!

Edited by starrbuck12
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I think you'd be fine (for college transcripts AND for transferring into ps high school) to call it integrated math I,II, III, etc. I'm basing this on the new common core standards that many of the states are adopting. The math standards list two approved paths. The traditional path is alg. I, geometry, etc. the alternative path is an integrated program and is listed as Math I, Math II, etc. So I think you would be fine either way. Of course, that's just my opinion, and I haven't run that by a single high school or college official, so my reasoning could be a little off! :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't think that helps with returning to school though. I highly doubt schools would have both tracks. I think that just means that both tracks are acceptable - traditional or integrated. I don't know of a school around here that does an integrated sequence such as Singapore. If my son goes to school for high school (and I doubt he will, but it's possible), he'd be going to a school that uses Saxon (which I suppose has Geometry integrated... they probably won't move to the new courses before my son graduates... I think their 5th grade is still using a grammar book from the 60s that you can't even get anymore). So if he used DM or NEM and then had to jump into Saxon, he'd have to place into a course that was probably part new and part review, which might be an issue.

 

I'm planning to do the traditional route... sort of. I say sort of because I'll have to stretch some things out and add some things in, since we'll be hitting algebra early (I intend to do calculus in 11th or 12th). But we will be doing "algebra 1", "algebra 2", etc. I like the AoPS courses a lot, though don't know if my son will be a good fit for those. I'm holding off on them a bit, since I'm 95% sure he won't be ready for them when he hits pre-algebra and algebra, but I will go ahead and get the pre-algebra book just in case it is a good fit. Hard to tell what he'll be like a year and a half from now when he needs prealgebra. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've looked at Singapore DM and NEM a bit, but the lack of teacher support was a bit of a biggie for me. If I'm going to be teaching this, I need to understand the material myself. I've been through the traditional courses and can figure those out easily, plus some of the options I'm looking at have videos available (such as Foerster's Algebra) or online classes available (AoPS). So if I get over my head, I can at least get some help pretty easily. Also, what if we get through DM/NEM 1 and find that we don't like it? Then we have to figure out where to go in the traditional route. It would be different if there were more integrated choices available with similar scope and sequences.

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Also, what if we get through DM/NEM 1 and find that we don't like it? Then we have to figure out where to go in the traditional route. It would be different if there were more integrated choices available with similar scope and sequences.

 

My DD will mostly likely do Algebra 1 after DM 1. I'm considering it pre-algebra even if it does get some into algebra 1 and high-school level geometry. Right now the tentative plan is for private high school (still TBD if it'll be brick & mortar or online) and all of the schools we are considering follow the traditional math sequence.

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Are YOU planning to use DM? I also have a thread on the logic board about it. I can't find anyone who's actually used it and can give me a review of it. I'm looking through the samples/scope and sequence and it looks very (for lack of a better word) rigorous. It also looks more straightforward than AoPS and it seems to start at a higher level.

 

On the Singapore website, their DM 1B textbook is out of stock...so there has to be s o m e b o d y out there who has used it!

 

:(

 

I'm using DM 3B right now with my 2 sons. I have used Singapore PM with all of them, NEM with some of them, and decided on DM for both of the younger boys. I'm a Singapore fan - so even if the DM were unavailable, we would have continued with NEM. Oh, and we've used some AoPS (which I really love, but find that we just don't have the time to do two programs).

 

I am finding that DM offers more explanations and examples than the NEM series. NEM was fine for my 15 year old who is very good with math, but it just wasn't enough for the 17 year old. He needs a lot of explanation and practice. DM seems to be fitting our needs very well.

 

I'm not crazy about how the teacher's manual is organized - but that's really the only issue I have with the program.

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My oldest used the NEM series through high school. We just listed the courses as Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2, etc. In 11th he began concurrent courses and took College Algebra, Trig, and Calculus 1 to finish out his high school maths. So I think that made it Algebra 1 in 8th, Geom. in 9th, Alg. 2 in 10th, College Alg. in 11th, etc.

 

He had no problems with our transcript. In fact, he graduates from college this May :)

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If you are using DM which components would you say are essential to purchase?

 

I will def need a guide of some sort akin to the HIGs for primary math. Sometimes when ds and I are stumped we go to the guide and follow step by step thru to solve.

 

There is very little guidance explaining the concepts like in the primary math HIG's. However, the TM and the teacher's guide to the workbook do contain full step-by-step worked solutions. OTOH those solutions don't provide any explanations for why the individual should do each particular step.

 

I feel confident enough in my ability to teach the material in DM1, but I'm not sure I'd be able to teach the more advanced algebra 1 & 2 topics found in the later DM books.

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You're making the assumption that the family using the program intends to HS all the way through 12th. Many families end up enrolling their student in a traditional high school. A student who will or might be entering a school with a traditional sequence would need to switch to a regular sequence after DM1/NEM1 in 7th.

 

I understand this, but I had not seen more than a few people using the later math programs until this thread; but few had said why. I was curious and the only reason I had seen was scope and sequence, even from those that appear to be HSing through high school.

Thanks for all the repkies and the few reviews. I have a couple years before we get there.....but I am a plan ahead type person and I really like to research ;)

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We are just using the textbook (student book) and the teacher manual. We purchased the workbooks but I do not find them useful - they just seem to take up a chunk of time which we do not have.

 

The teacher book - with the answers and solutions - is very comprehensive, IMO. While there isn't a lot of "teaching" per se in the teacher book, the solutions are worked clearly. One of the problems about anticipating whether one will be able to use a program later is that it is difficult to understand that there will be learning at the earlier levels which will allow you to use the subsequent levels without the difficulty you might anticipate (that's a really awkward sentence - sorry). My impression is that if you do well with the early level of a program (ie DM 1), chances are good that you will do fine with it later on as well. And by the time a student gets to DM2 or DM3, he/she should be doing the vast majority of it on her own with mom as a back-up resource. If a student struggles through DM 1, needing a lot of assistance from mom, I would suggest that a change to a different program might be in order.

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You're making the assumption that the family using the program intends to HS all the way through 12th. Many families end up enrolling their student in a traditional high school. A student who will or might be entering a school with a traditional sequence would need to switch to a regular sequence after DM1/NEM1 in 7th.

 

This! If I knew 100% that I would home school through to graduation, I would use the program all the way through.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Crimson Wife, do you know if the Bay Area has schools that use DM throughout the 4 years? If some schools now use an integrated approach for secondary math, I wonder if that's becoming the trend. Or do most schools in California still follow the traditional approach?

 

I just bought a few old math books, and I didn't think I would be considering DM until I clicked on the tag. DD may not be an AOPS kind of kid, but maybe DM 1 might be better. Oh shoot, now I see myself using 4 Pre-A/Algebra 1 books.

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Crimson Wife, do you know if the Bay Area has schools that use DM throughout the 4 years? If some schools now use an integrated approach for secondary math, I wonder if that's becoming the trend. Or do most schools in California still follow the traditional approach?

 

I just bought a few old math books, and I didn't think I would be considering DM until I clicked on the tag. DD may not be an AOPS kind of kid, but maybe DM 1 might be better. Oh shoot, now I see myself using 4 Pre-A/Algebra 1 books.

 

Discovering Math is not on the state-approved textbook list (Primary Math is up through 6B) so it would only be private schools that could use DM. I'm not aware of any private schools that use DM but that isn't to say that there isn't one somewhere.

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I think many moms are incapable of teaching it, and need to teach--or merely facilitate--a more spoon fed and regurgitate curriculum.

 

I'm a real fan of integrated curricula. I don't know if New York is still doing integrated, but I used a lot of New York high school resources with my youngest son, back in the 90s. I think I heard they are moving back to a more traditional scope and sequence.

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I think many moms are incapable of teaching it, and need to teach--or merely facilitate--a more spoon fed and regurgitate curriculum.

 

I'm a real fan of integrated curricula. I don't know if New York is still doing integrated, but I used a lot of New York high school resources with my youngest son, back in the 90s. I think I heard they are moving back to a more traditional scope and sequence.

 

yes, NY still use integrated curriculum. I just confirmed with DS's teacher. around here, they uses prentice hall course 1-4

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I don't know about most people, but my oldest used SM through 6, then we went straight to Foerster's Algebra I (with no problem and with no preAlgebra, I just went ahead and taught him the couple of topics that he hadn't done yet).

 

I love SM, and my kids have all done well with it. I struggled with the decision to switch for a long time before deciding.

 

For us it came down to this. We live in an area where the public schools use integrated math curriculum for high school, but it looks like they will be switching back to Alg I/Geo/etc. in a couple of years. All of the private schools & home school hybrid schools around here use the traditional Alg. I sequence. We weren't sure exactly what we would do for high school, but doing a traditional sequence makes it possible for us to put him in classes for upper level math in high school. I've done calculus, but I'd rather not do it again, and at the rate he's going now, the year he will need it I'll also be teaching an 8th grader, a 6th grader, and a 4th grader. If he was doing Singapore still, it would be a pain to deal with the schools trying to figure out where he should go, if we wanted to sign him up for math classes somewhere. So it was a very practical decision.

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I think it may be difficult to compare Singapore's DM to what goes on at US high schools that use an integrated math curriculum because at least some of those curricula are of the "fuzzy" math variety (e.g., IMP), very different from DM.

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I think it may be difficult to compare Singapore's DM to what goes on at US high schools that use an integrated math curriculum because at least some of those curricula are of the "fuzzy" math variety (e.g., IMP), very different from DM.

I never understand how can math be "fuzzy"

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I never understand how can math be "fuzzy"

 

Our public school system uses Everyday Math. I posted a thread about it last year. My daughter was helping the neighbor's daughter with her math...fuzzy was a great word. :glare: Horrible is another great word to describe it. They were multiplying multi-digit numbers by single digit numbers...this girl had numbers EVERYWHERE. It must've taken her 20 minutes to do one problem and the answer was way off. Also, the only way my daughter knew how to solve the problem was the old-fashioned way (which took maybe a minute and she got the right answer) and the girl said that she had never seen that method before. :svengo:

 

It was bad. I can't believe the schools are teaching math like that.

 

I think it's fuzzy in that they aren't taught an algorithm to solve the problem. They're expected to somehow find the answer on their own. I'm all for discovery math (we use Miquon), but at some point, you just need to sit down with them and show them how to solve the problem quickly.

 

I could talk about this fuzzy math all day. I just can't believe they're doing that to the kids. And the school district here wants soooo much money in property taxes. We have the second highest property taxes in the US and they even cut school bus service, because they "can't afford it". Then, they teach math like that. They probably paid so much money for that Everyday Math and it costs maybe 50 bucks a year for Singapore. Really makes me irrate.

 

Sorry for venting. You may return to your regularly-scheduled program. :tongue_smilie:

 

Edited to say: Yes, we will most likely use Singapore DM next year.

Edited by starrbuck12
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  • 1 month later...

We used it through NEM 2 and then went into Lial's precal and Dolicani(?) algebra 2 with trig for his 9th grade math. I couldn't make heads or tails out of Singapore but my son did fine with it ( 650 on the SAT math in 7th grade so not a shabby showing). But the last 2 volumes were more of a review (or so I thought) for Singapore exam testing and Calculus thrown in. I decided we'd go more traditional. the next kid is not so mathy so I may get the DM books and see if they fit him better. But I felt Singapore did a great job in the upper levels IF you can survive without much hand holding. it's not heavy on teacher materials that spoon feed you. But it does prepare you for math.

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