If you haven't liked AoPS math pls tell me why...& other AoPS ?s

[kbpaulie]

Some AoPS?s (We really like SM math, if that helps anything... my son gets math and needs little help)

 

* If you've tried AoPS and haven't liked it can you tell me what course and why? (If you have liked it willing to listen to that too.)

* If when I ask my son a question "why" about something, many times he just knows and has a hard time explaining - so it's just "because" (probably more like b/c I know) - so will this curric drive us NUTS?

* I've heard people talk about spending more that a school year on an AoPS class and other people were talking about a course being set up for 3months or completing a book during summer - what am I missing? How long does a course usually take?

* If I have a mathy child who doesn't like math, but does well and enjoys SM CWP, and doesn't know yet what he wants to be when he grows up will this work? (Meaning it might be a science college track, a math track or a liberal arts track, etc)

* Some people have talked about supplementing AoPS. How important is this? Seems like a complete program.

 

Edited to add - we would be looking at the book only option, not an on-line option

 

Thanks much!

KB

Edited January 18, 2012 by kmoncelle

[8filltheheart]

Hi. I'll try answering your questions.

 

My 10th grader has completed multiple AoPS courses since we discovered them when he was in 8th grade: alg 3, counting and probability, pre-cal, and is taking cal. On top of that, he owns vols 1 and 2 and works through those when the mood strikes. He has taken all of the former classes online w/the exception of pre-cal. THe online classes move through the material at a very fast pace, not a pace that most students will be comfortable with for complete mastery of the material. For kids that excel in math and that pick up concepts quickly, they will be a match. Ds loves the teaching style which is guided discovery and proof type problems vs. standard "solve 100 replicated equations."

 

Our 7th grade dd is a strong math student. She, however, does not like the AoPS approach. I can completely relate b/c I personally could not learn math the way AoPS teaches. I need direct instruction. It is sort of like AoPS gives the really big picture and students prove the steps that lead to creating that big picture. Traditional texts like Foerster teach the students the detailed steps and use the steps to demonstrate why the big picture is true.

 

AoPS is a fabulous math series. Kids that use it and are getting everything out of it that it offers will not only be solid, they will come away w/an incredibly deep understanding of math processes.

 

That said, it isn't a series that will work for everyone. I would rather use a traditional text and know that they are really understanding what they are doing than have a child only 1/2 way understand what AoPS is teaching. Students also don't have to use an approach like AoPS to be successful in STEM careers. Our oldest only used traditional texts and had zero problems majoring in engineering. The more traditional approach provided him w/the level of depth of understanding that he needed to be a successful engineer. In all honesty, though, our younger ds does have a better conceptual understanding of math processes. Younger ds's AoPS approach has really developed his "theoretical" abilities and he wants to be a theoretical physicist.

 

Does that help at all?

[jennynd]

I agree with the pp

I have both PreA and algebra

AOPS set up the way the kids should discover and learn on their own with minimum instruction involved. The meat is really the kids learn on their own and "discover" the process. I have a young kid is few days shy from finishing up SM 6 and I was hoping AOPS will meet the need. Unfortunately,

1. SM already has many similar questions as AOPS PreA. there is nothing to "discover"

2. he just not mature enough to handle that book on his own and I feel it will loss the point if I have to teach him.

 

The questions in the book is not hard IMO, so we decide using NEM as next step and only use AOPS preA and Algebra as supplement as needed

[snowbeltmom]

I have been using AoPS for 4 years. My guess would be that if your child likes SM CWP, then AoPS would be a good fit.

 

In my experience, even though the books can be used independently by the student, that is not how they are used in my family with my two younger kids. I work through the example problems with them, and then they work on the exercises independently.

 

My dd completed the Singapore elementary series last year (along with the CWP and IP books). She just finished up AoPS's Pre-algebra I online class last week. Even though she had prior exposure to all of the topics, the problems were at a much greater depth than those found in Singapore. With my younger kids, I think that the "discovery" method is overrated. I find that prior exposure to a topic is very beneficial for them.

[regentrude]

PP already answered many of your questions.

 

* I've heard people talk about spending more that a school year on an AoPS class and other people were talking about a course being set up for 3months or completing a book during summer - what am I missing? How long does a course usually take?

 

The online courses move very fast, but one course does not always equal one book.

For example: the algebra 1 course is 16 weeks, but it covers only the first 12 or so chapters of the Introduction to Algebra book. The second part of the book is covered in a second, 15 week, class. The book has a lot more content than any traditional algebra 1 curriculum, and if you use just the book, without the courses, it is entirely possible, and sometimes desirable, to take your time and to spend a year plus summer (my DD took 200+ hours to work through it).

Some other books are much shorter; Intro to Counting and Probability or Number Theory can be covered in one semester.

Intro to Geometry was just right for a school year for us.

 

Some people have talked about supplementing AoPS. How important is this? Seems like a complete program.

 

I see not need to supplement AoPS, it is a complete program.

It might work the other way round: some people may decide that a different curriculum is a better fit for their students and they use AoPS selectively to supplement whatever else they are doing.

[MBM]

AoPS does not need supplementing. It is a thorough program.

 

How long it takes to complete a course depends on your child. Intro to Counting and Probablity and Intro to Number Theory would probably take a semester or so--maybe much more, maybe less. For example, it took my son's summer math camp leader three tries before she could complete all of the Intro to Number Theory problems, and she is now a freshman at Harvard taking the Math 55 course (which is not easy). It just depends on how well the student grasps the concepts. Sometimes that takes awhile.

 

Richard Rusczyk has written a number of short articles explaining the AoPS philosophy that are worth reading. You can find them over at the AoPS site.

Edited January 17, 2012 by MBM
added more info

[Julie of KY]

I like AoPS, but it isn't for everyone and I'm afraid might not be for all my kids.

 

As previous posters said, the online classes move fast. If you work through the book on your own, you can go at any speed - and thus the variation of speeds.

 

My son sees math and visually gets answers that most have to write out and solve. He can't explain it, mostly due to language difficulties. AoPS is perfect for him.

 

I don't think you need to supplement AoPS. ... unless you are looking for more practice for competition math.

[MBM]

I don't think you need to supplement AoPS. ... unless you are looking for more practice for competition math.

 

AoPS offers WOOT to help those who are interested in preparing for a National Olympiad or other competitions. I wouldn't be surprised if kids use other resources, too, but WOOT is pretty thorough. From the AoPS site:

 

11 of the 12 2011 USAMO winners are WOOT alumni, and these 12 USAMO winners collectively have taken over 60 Art of Problem Solving classes!

 

[KS_]

 

Our 7th grade dd is a strong math student. She, however, does not like the AoPS approach. I can completely relate b/c I personally could not learn math the way AoPS teaches. I need direct instruction. It is sort of like AoPS gives the really big picture and students prove the steps that lead to creating that big picture. Traditional texts like Foerster teach the students the detailed steps and use the steps to demonstrate why the big picture is true.

 

 

 

 

We tried AOPS here, last year, and it didn't fly. We used Singapore through book 6, and tried switching to NEM, and then AOPS, and both caused a lot of frustration for my ds. He's good at math, but is easily frustrated, and both those books caused him a lot of frustration. We are now using Lial's Introductory Algebra and he hasn't had the same issues with it. I think it does have to do with direct instruction vs having to puzzle it out yourself.

[Jilly]

Our 7th grade dd is a strong math student. She, however, does not like the AoPS approach. I can completely relate b/c I personally could not learn math the way AoPS teaches. I need direct instruction. It is sort of like AoPS gives the really big picture and students prove the steps that lead to creating that big picture. Traditional texts like Foerster teach the students the detailed steps and use the steps to demonstrate why the big picture is true.

 

AoPS is a fabulous math series. Kids that use it and are getting everything out of it that it offers will not only be solid, they will come away w/an incredibly deep understanding of math processes.

 

That said, it isn't a series that will work for everyone. I would rather use a traditional text and know that they are really understanding what they are doing than have a child only 1/2 way understand what AoPS is teaching.

 

:iagree:My son is a very strong math student, and I thought AoPS would be a perfect fit for him. To my surprise he struggled with it and grew increasingly frustrated.

[quark]

:iagree:My son is a very strong math student, and I thought AoPS would be a perfect fit for him. To my surprise he struggled with it and grew increasingly frustrated.

 

:iagree: I've found it to work differently for different AoPS books. My son breezed through Counting and Probability (a new interest) but was frustrated by Number Theory (a deeper interest than C&P and I thought AoPS NT would be perfect but no it wasn't!). Geometry fascinates him and he loves the end of chapter problems but not wading through the rest of the pages.

[kbpaulie]

Thanks for all the great feedback. At what point do you sort of know whether or not it's a good fit? Any way to figure this out ahead of time???:001_huh::D:001_huh:

Edited January 18, 2012 by kmoncelle

[Handmaiden]

I once asked Richard Rusczyk a similar question, and this was his response:

 

Students who probably wouldn't be a good fit for our material include students who don't work well independently and students who need a lot of drill. If you had described your son as getting only 60% correct and having trouble with the concepts on the other 40%, I would have been reluctant to suggest AoPS. Also, if he were the type to be thrown into a panic when he gets something wrong, our material might not be a fit (but my suggestion would be to find a way to get him past that and then consider our material -- that's a trait that people have to deal with sooner rather than later).

 

I just thought of one other question -- does he read well? I've had a few teachers of younger students mention that the students with good reading comprehension skills fare best with our materials.

 

For any of our classes this fall, you can drop a course before the third class for a full refund, so you'd have no problem switching to another class.

 

My oldest has been taking AoPS classes for 2 years and LOVES them. My youngest is also mathy, but a different kind of mathy....I'm not sure if AoPS will be a good fit for him. I'll see how pre-algebra goes and then decide.

[Sweetpeach]

My 2 cents:

 

My oldest son is pretty mathy. He can handle a challenge and is learning to manage his frustration when Alcumus kicks his butt. AofPS is a great fit for him because he has to work at it. He likes the online classroom setting and the discovery approach works just fine for him.

 

Middle son is a completely different story. We're working through PreAlg at our own pace and yes, we'll definitely need to "supplement" or I refer to it as "plain ole practice" what we've learned together. I could not give my son the AofPS PreAlg text and say: "have at it" -- he would completely lose his mind. The teaching videos are amazing; funny, informative. PreAlg with my middle Mr is my favorite part of the day.

 

AofPS is written so that kids can "discover" the beauty of math but if middle is anything like me, this type of math thinking isn't going to come naturally or easily to him. For now, I think it's worth the effort, but I may have to reassess our AofPS journey if Alg 1 turns out to be a wash for ds2.

 

Every kid takes a different path to competency and I'm ok with that.

 

Warmly, Tricia

[MBM]

Thanks for all the great feedback. At what point do you sort of know whether or not it's a good fit? Any way to figure this out ahead of time???:001_huh::D:001_huh:

 

Other than peering into a crystal ball, ;) your child will probably just have to give it a try. My son almost always goes through an adjustment period when he encounters an unfamiliar math topic. After spending a period of time -- weeks, months -- he will begin to grasp it and can then chug through most of the remaining problems. He has been known to skip a section or a few problems and then revisit them later. That is just the way my son learns. To sum it up, don't be surprised if you see a little frustration in the beginning.

[Trilliums]

Thanks for all the great feedback. At what point do you sort of know whether or not it's a good fit? Any way to figure this out ahead of time???:001_huh::D:001_huh:

 

 

DS #1 (grade9) started AoPS Geometry late this year and he took to it right away. He says it is very hard for him, but he likes this challenge (he was not always this way, and I am still in the draw dropping stage over his newly found work ethic). Previously he used Saxon Alg 1 and now that he has looked over the AoPS Intro to Alg book, he says he wishes he had used that for algebra instead of Saxon. Previously he has preferred texts that are not very wordy. He did not like LoF AT ALL. He also did not like MCT materials with all those...words! He likes material that gets right to the point. But, with AoPS, even though it is wordy, the descriptions relate directly to the math concept at hand.

 

I bought the AoPS Intro Alg book for DS #2 (Grade 8). After the first few pages he was clearly frustrated. So, we pulled out the Saxon Alg 1 book and DS said the Saxon descriptions were easier for him to understand, partially because Saxon starts out using small, easily manipulated numbers in the examples. Saxon, however, hasn't been going too well for him either, so he is switchign to Lial's text. I think he requires more drill and practice in a particular concept before moving to the next one.

 

I purchased our AoPS alg and geometry texts & answer books from TWTM want to buy page.

[KarenC]

AoPS did not have enough practice problems for my dd to feel comfortable with the topics. She felt like their was too big of a jump between the easy problems and the challenging problems.

 

Karen

[Rain]

AoPS did not have enough practice problems for my dd to feel comfortable with the topics. She felt like their was too big of a jump between the easy problems and the challenging problems.

 

Karen

 

this is exactly the way my dd felt. The end of section problems were generally easy for her, but the end of chapter problems took such a huge leap in difficulty (not just the challenge problems) that she would get incredibly frustrated. We used to take a week of working solely on the end of chapter problems, working for 2-3 hours per day, and she still didn't really feel like she understood how they got the answers.

 

Going back through the material didn't help as she *did* understand the material and section problems as presented.

 

This was Intro to Algebra, btw.

 

We did Counting and Probability the summer before in the online class. That was difficult for her, but we got through it together.

 

We tried Foerster's this year, with Math Without Borders CD and ended up quitting that due to also not enough practice. We switched to Saxon and she is finding it refreshingly easy. We'll probably stay with Saxon at least this year (Alg 2) because after AoPS she needs the confidence booster.

 

One problem with the online class we found, is that the kids chat about how old they are. Dd felt, well, stupid, when she found out that she was struggling so much and yet there were kids 3 years younger than she was in the class.

 

I'm not saying at all that that was something that was true, or she should have considered, but nonetheless that was how she felt.

 

Personally, I probably would have liked using those textbooks as a kid.

 

Another issue she had was the use of 'textbook' terminology. "Let P(n) and S(n) denote the product and the sum, respectively, of the digits of the integer n." After doing Singapore Math and Challenge Math, it was a big switch.

 

And one more thing I remembered while looking online at the excerpts at the AoPS site -- the explanations often give more than one way to solve a problem, denoted with Solution 1, Solution 2, etc.

 

Dd found this *very* confusing. She'd just understand Solution 1, then it would move to Solution 2 and she'd get them mixed together in her head.

 

I will say that if we were to try it now, after using Math U See (and zipping through that), Life of Fred, Foerster's, and now Saxon, she would probably do okay with AoPS if I got her in the right level. However, she is completely turned off to AoPS now.

 

There are excerpts online that you can look at. Show those to your kids and see if it clicks with them.

[Halcyon]

Taking into account the videos: how much of a help were they to your student? (This question is directed towards those using AoPS Pre-A) I think they look really helpful.

[Sweetpeach]

Taking into account the videos: how much of a help were they to your student? (This question is directed towards those using AoPS Pre-A) I think they look really helpful.

 

I wouldn't attempt to teach AofPS Pre-Alg to my son without the videos. Seeing the video list online is what gave me the confidence to walk out the math with my 11 year old. [The prof is so funny: Very Very Very BAD things will happen if you try to take the reciprocal of zero! :)]

 

What OP's have said above about not enough practice questions and a huge jump between chapter work and end of chapter questions -- I completely agree with the others. It would be very helpful for me to have a practice supplement.

 

I think AofPS is smarty-pants math and I like how they think about math. I wish AofPS would give online extra worksheets for kids that need more practice but I'm not sure that they would put the effort into meeting that need. They are pretty clear about their mandate: we do what we do so gifted kids can be challenged in their mathematical thinking.

 

I think extra practice comes with Alcumus, which is free. You just have to sign up your under-aged kids by sending in a permission slip.(Fax or snail mail) I have my older keep an Alcumus notebook so he can refresh his brain when the harder questions pop up.

 

(Wouldn't it be wonderful is a mathy WTM mom felt compelled to make practice worksheets that correspond with the AoPS Pre-Algebra chapters? I would pay for that pdf.)

 

 

 

T

Edited January 19, 2012 by Sweetpeach

[Matryoshka]

What OP's have said above about not enough practice questions and a huge jump between chapter work and end of chapter questions -- I completely agree with the others. It would be very helpful for me to have a practice supplement.

 

Alcumus gives lots of extra practice. We did it backwards and did some Alcumus and now she wants to try the whole program...

 

Alcumus is great, as you never run out of extra problems, and it will give you more problems of a certain kind depending on what you get wrong/find difficult. If you get something wrong (or even right) it gives you the full solution and explanation so you can do better next time. I much prefer that to extra worksheets.

[Lovin Learnin]

Dd and I are working our way through both AoPS Pre-A and SM NEM 1. We did have a difficult time initially with AOPS but since we've discovered the videos it's been smooth sailing. The videos are invaluable, imo. Once we learn a concept in AOPS we move into the corresponding concept in NEM. It will take us a bit longer to get through both books but that's ok with me since she is only in 5th grade. I really wish AoPS had videos for all of their courses because I need the hand holding.