MrsMe Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We tried R&S and I found no retention. Then we went to BJU English but I'm not seeing much understanding. I don't think either has enough review and DD seems to need more of it, but I don't even know where to pull it from anymore. She know's basics; nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions, the latter 3 eh....not great). But now that we're getting into types of verbs and nouns, etc. it's all a blur. Not only that, she told me today she doesn't know what a predicate is or what goes in the diagramming position under predicate. She knows that the sentence divides between the subj/predicate, but I see she's clearly not understanding it, KWIM? She'll put the verb under subject and when the sentence gets more than basic, she's all over the place with the diagramming. I'm like, "oh, oh!" If I look back it's been an ongoing issue. Frankly I don't blame her. I have brain fry on it as well. I don't know where to go with it. I think CLE could fit, although we already have time issues. I can't imagine doing pages of grammar. Yikes! I also rely on the other skills both programs have. R&S comes with HOD, so it contains dictionary, writing, etc, so I need those. It can't simply be grammar. I don't know where to go with it. I'm just short of creating my own worksheets for R&S to include the TM's review questions and the some of the lessons in the text, because orally doesn't work well. Every other grammar program is just grammar, and frankly I'm sick of looking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janainaz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 First Language Lessons is excellent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 how old is she & what grade is she using with BJU? there is a CD with printables in each TM. do you have that? if not, you could give extra practice by making up your own sentences, ykwim? where is she getting stumped? is it with the simple subject and simple predicate? i know they go through a whole spiel on that, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMe Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 First Language Lessons is excellent. I hear this alot, but isn't that for 4th grade and under? I always thought it was for younger students. how old is she & what grade is she using with BJU? there is a CD with printables in each TM. do you have that? if not, you could give extra practice by making up your own sentences, ykwim? where is she getting stumped? is it with the simple subject and simple predicate? i know they go through a whole spiel on that, lol. She is 5th grade and in BJU 5. Yes they did go through it all and we did, even towards the end of last year (and she seemed to get it), but it's not sticking. I think because we're getting into different verbs and nouns. She's completely getting confused. And we haven't had diagramming for a month at least now, so it's either not retained or she didn't really learn it. The problem is that the review is for the lesson itself instead of a sheet that would review several concepts. It makes it hard to review more than one concept. If that's the case, the days would be really long in worksheets. I think CLE LA would be good (it is for us for math), but I cringe on adding that many sheets a day to complete as our day already goes long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herkey6 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am using First Language Lessons (level 4) with my 5th grade dd. We tried Easy Grammar and did not like it at all. I was using FLL with my younger dd and she was 'getting it', so I thought why not with my older as well? It has been a good change, and I would recommend it. I am not sure where we will go next year though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janainaz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I hear this alot, but isn't that for 4th grade and under? I always thought it was for younger students. If she has not retained/learned the foundation of grammar, I see no reason not to go back and begin anew. It is a such a thorough curriculum, and it's very easy to teach. FLL3 would probably be the best level to begin with. Diagramming is introduced in that level (from what I remember) and it's very gentle. Concepts are reviewed continuously. I don't recall ever spending longer than 20/25 minutes on grammar per day, and my son can diagram just about any sentence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaKim Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 We love CLE here. I am using it with my youngest, and wish I had discovered it for her older sister. Retention is excellent because they are constantly reviewing what they have learned. It usually doesn't take her but a half hour or so to do a lesson, unless there is a lot of diagraming. I go through at the beginning of the week and mark out anything I don't think she needs to do. We don't use the spelling part as spelling, but I have her do the exercises anyway, as they are good for vocabulary, if not for spelling. Edited to add, we have used levels 5-7 and are just starting on 8. I have slowed her down to a half lesson per day, as there is no hurry to finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloggermom Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am using FLL3 and FLL4 with my current 5th grader. We do a lesson every day and plan to go through the summer. He will be DONE with FLL4 by the start of 6th grade this fall. At that time I will probably use Analytical Grammar with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blessedmom3 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I would reconsider R&S but start with 4th grade . Especially since you're using HOD. CLE is ok but expensive since you are not using the rest of the program . Climbing to good English is a good option also. Very similar to R&S but in a workbook format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 With any program, they are going to have to study. I have my kids write up 3x5 cards with important information to learn. Examples of diagramming, types of adjectives, verb tenses, etc. Then they can review them a few times a week. Review is essential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMe Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 I agree and actually thought about the flash cards idea. I may use that instead of some workbook work and make it a bit more interesting. I'm going to try CLE. It has so much built in review and I'll cross out some of the things I see we don't need. But I like that they picture a basic diagram for diagramming without using just the sentence structure. Like a model. I find that pretty helpful. They're also saying that nouns are ideas. And while that fits under things, kids don't assume so. Not only that it's getting confusing when what is known as a noun can be an adjective butted up to ideas. Um....right? :tongue_smilie: Anyway it's all making even my head spin. I'm buying it used, so I saved about $20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 She is 5th grade and in BJU 5. Yes they did go through it all and we did, even towards the end of last year (and she seemed to get it), but it's not sticking. I think because we're getting into different verbs and nouns. She's completely getting confused. And we haven't had diagramming for a month at least now, so it's either not retained or she didn't really learn it. The problem is that the review is for the lesson itself instead of a sheet that would review several concepts. It makes it hard to review more than one concept. R&S 5 is where things start to go a little more complex. But, R&S 6 reinforces level 5. Then 7 goes deeper still, with 8 reinforcing it. However, I hear what you are saying in the bolded section above. I never realized this when my ds was going through it, because he picked up and remembered concepts so easily. But my dd is going through 5 now, and when I had samples of ALL (which dd really loved) from SWB, SWB pointed out on a thread that what you said above *is* a potential problem with R&S. And, I am seeing it somewhat with dd (who went back to R&S since ALL is not being published anytime soon). But, knowing that level 6 will review level 5 makes me hope that she will get a better understanding with age and additional review/practice, even if it's not as often as a spiral review within one level would do. What I do is do as much orally with her as possible, and slow her down for me to ask questions to help her think through a puzzling exercise. It takes a little longer sometimes, but it saves me having to review other grammar programs for the thoroughness I like about R&S (plus I've already taught it once) - it also helps her to learn to think through a "problem" step by step. Anyway, not sure if that helps, but just wanted to throw that perspective in there. I do sympathize with what you are talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I have my kids write up 3x5 cards with important information to learn. Examples of diagramming, types of adjectives, verb tenses, etc. Will you please give more specifics? I tried a flashcard system a few years ago with R&S grammar, but realized that I'd need to make the cards more "sophisticated" each year, as explanations grew more sophisticated. Thus, whatever they had memorized in level 5 might go out the window (and be confusing) with changing definitions in level 6, for example. There were also so many definitions that going through the cards got overwhelming. So I gave up. Can you tell us a little more? Do you have lots of cards? How does review work on a daily/weekly/monthly basis? Do you have other memory work you are working with as well? I'm asking because it might be good for my dd, but I just remember how many definitions there were.....(and I threw all those cards away finally, ugh!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Will you please give more specifics? I tried a flashcard system a few years ago with R&S grammar, but realized that I'd need to make the cards more "sophisticated" each year, as explanations grew more sophisticated. Thus, whatever they had memorized in level 5 might go out the window (and be confusing) with changing definitions in level 6, for example. There were also so many definitions that going through the cards got overwhelming. So I gave up. Can you tell us a little more? Do you have lots of cards? How does review work on a daily/weekly/monthly basis? Do you have other memory work you are working with as well? I'm asking because it might be good for my dd, but I just remember how many definitions there were.....(and I threw all those cards away finally, ugh!) Sorry, I'm just seeing this. I leave it up to my kids honestly. I teach them to jot down lists and definitions they they feel they need to memorize. R&S is pretty good about telling you something is important. With my 9yo, I still help him. I tell him to get out a 3x5 card and copy out the state of being verbs. I tell him to draw how to diagram a two-subject or two-predicate sentence. My 12yo daughter has added to her 3x5 cards, rewritten them when they've become to cluttered, etc. A couple times a week, she has written in her planner to review her note cards. They don't write down everything. Just stuff they are struggling with or need to really memorize. Those verb tenses are a good example. They are a bear and it really helps to have a "cheat sheet" to refer to until you have them all memorized. They all fit nicely on a ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colleen in NS Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Sorry, I'm just seeing this. I leave it up to my kids honestly. I teach them to jot down lists and definitions they they feel they need to memorize. R&S is pretty good about telling you something is important. With my 9yo, I still help him. I tell him to get out a 3x5 card and copy out the state of being verbs. I tell him to draw how to diagram a two-subject or two-predicate sentence. My 12yo daughter has added to her 3x5 cards, rewritten them when they've become to cluttered, etc. A couple times a week, she has written in her planner to review her note cards. They don't write down everything. Just stuff they are struggling with or need to really memorize. Those verb tenses are a good example. They are a bear and it really helps to have a "cheat sheet" to refer to until you have them all memorized. They all fit nicely on a ring. Thanks, Daisy. Do they memorize definitions of grammar concepts? If so, what happens, for example, when your daughter has to rewrite a definition - how does she get past any initial confusion about the minor nuance change? This is what I couldn't get past, so I gave up strict memorization and hoped that the concepts would just sink it. Still, I have lingering doubts about giving up much of the strict memory work in grammar...(although lists and charts are easy - list of helping verbs, prepositions, charts of pronouns, etc.) Thanks for your help. I've always thought you were a true teacher (I still remember years ago when you patiently explained R&S math to me - that sold me on it). Even the ring part - that reminds me of my teacher-mother - she kept rings in her elementary classroom for all sorts of memory work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I hear this alot, but isn't that for 4th grade and under? I always thought it was for younger students. Never, never, never be afraid to use below grade level resources that get the job DONE. It doesn't matter the number on the book. It matter if the book gets the job done. If the topic is something that has to be routinely covered in the average college classroom for future teachers, because they never learned it in school, and the typical person nowadays isn't expected to have mastered it, then feel especially free to use underage resources. Did I say NEVER be afraid to use below grade resources? Hmmm... yes, I did. Another thing. Don't be afraid to use below grade resources :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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