6packofun Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 In which countries is female circumcision *only* a religious ritual and/or cleanliness issue and not ALSO an attempt to control a woman's purity and body for the pleasure of men? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Here is ds4, about 15 minutes after his bris: [/size] I love circ threads!!! Bring 'em on! :lol: Is he passed out from hysterically crying himself into unconsciousness, or just sleeping peacefully? :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 OK I'll bite. However, I believe this thread was started with only the intent to argue, because obviously anyone who says something different is wrong. My boys had it done. Dh wanted it. In hindsight I'm glad. The cleanliness thing is an issue. Sure boys can be taught to have good hygiene. My youngest has intellectual disabilities. At 10 years old we are still working on wiping properly and brushing teeth. I'm glad this is not on the list of things we a still teaching. Sorry, I'm selfish I guess, but parenting a child like this is hard, draining work. If we didn't do this well he'd have UTIs all the time and then we'd have further medical issues that ds does not need. The cleanliness thing is an issue, part 2. I had no way of knowing at oldest ds's birth that he would have hidden disabilities, among them severe sensory issues that caused extreme problems with hygiene for years. No way would he have kept himself clean after numerous lessons in the toddler/preschool years. We have friends whose sons are older who did not circ. I didn't know this until my oldest was 2. The other mom was telling about all the UTIs her boys had had and she was considering getting them circ'd at 5 and 8. The older boy had the most problems. I've since learned he also had many sensory issues. Unless you live with these issues, you really cannot understand. Even if your child has some of these issues, you may have no idea how extreme they can get. Female circ is about sexual repression. It has no health benefit whatsoever. OP, as you stated before you are entitled to your opinion. You should also be respectful of others rather than just saying your opinion is the only right one. I understand what my family did is not right for others. I also understand that the circumstances that my family faced are not the norm and therefore the health problems would have less of a chance to present themselves in another family. But my family is my family and there are reasons our decision was the right one for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) Betty, I can see why it would be helpful for your disabled son to be circed, but I still don't see that as an argument for RIC. It's something that could easily be done later when it shows itself as a problem. I just don't get the "preventative" argument, because in my experience in a non-circ culture, it's very very (cant emphasis the very enough) seldom that the issue that people are trying to prevent actually arises. In your culture, which is pro circ, I think doctors swing quite quickly to the "chop it off" solution. Edited January 16, 2012 by keptwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Okay. I'm sorry if I offend anyone one. But ..... Ewww...Yuck! Lord, help me. I am a prude. It's hard to discuss these body parts, without also mentioning the things they are used for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sputterduck Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Betty, I can see why it would be helpful for your disabled son to be circed, but I still don't see that as an argument for RIC. It's something that could easily be done later when it shows itself as a problem. I just don't get the "preventative" argument, because in my experience in a non-circ culture, it's very very (cant emphasis the very enough) seldom that the issue that people are trying to prevent actually arises. In your culture, which is pro circ, I think doctors swing quite quickly to the "chop it off" solution. I agree. I don't think there is an epidemic of old men getting circed in nursing homes in non-circ countries. American doctors tend to rush to that because it's "normal" to them. Women go through chronic UTIs all the time and no one suggests cutting any parts away. Women go through dementia and don't clean themselves properly and get complications and it's dealt with. All the issues that men have that lead to themselves not cleaning themselves also occur to women. And it gets dealt with. It can be like that for men, but no, it's "Go get surgery. Have lots of pain. Cut part of yourself off." If women took off their... folds... they would be cleaner, too. But no one goes there. And issues get dealt with anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 While I don't see the need to have male circ done routinely I do understand that if one has to have it done later in life that it is extremely painful. Both what causes the circ to come about and the procedure itself. :iagree:My FIL just had to have it done at age 79 in a nursing home. It was horrible. Repeated UTIs were the reason because he was not mentally aware enough to keep the area clean (he has Alzheimers). And guess what? The aides they employ at nursing homes DO NOT do that for you...no matter what they might lead you to believe. I spoke to his personal physician who was in charge of his after-care and he said it happens all. the. time. to elderly uncircumcised males. Not if they've been circumcised though. Food for thought. My grandmother got repeated infections, both vaginal and in folds of skin, at that age. My mom went and cleaned her, or would have hired someone, or sued the facility. Amputation seems like bizarre reaction to people not providing adequate care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Does anyone know if males who choose circumcision as adults experience a loss of pleasure/slidability/sensation/etc.? I don't know about studies, but the internet is full of anecdotes about this. So yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 OK I'll bite. However, I believe this thread was started with only the intent to argue, because obviously anyone who says something different is wrong. My boys had it done. Dh wanted it. In hindsight I'm glad. Female circ is about sexual repression. It has no health benefit whatsoever. OP, as you stated before you are entitled to your opinion. You should also be respectful of others rather than just saying your opinion is the only right one. I understand what my family did is not right for others. I also understand that the circumstances that my family faced are not the norm and therefore the health problems would have less of a chance to present themselves in another family. But my family is my family and there are reasons our decision was the right one for us. :iagree: You can't compare female circ (which shouldn't even be called that) with male circ... I stated in another thread that I was against circ, but my DH insisted on it...He is intact and read much research on both sides...His experience being uncirc won out for him in the end over anything that he has read, and I can understand that...I can feel however I want to about a man's genitals, but I will never have first hand experience...My DH did what he thinks is best for our boys, and I support him in that...My boys were fine during the procedure and was fine afterwards, so now it is not an issue for us...If we were to have another boy, we would do the same... Female circ is illegal here, so it is not even an issue... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Is he passed out from hysterically crying himself into unconsciousness, or just sleeping peacefully? :D Bill Bill, I think this is where we need to point out the difference between a bris and RIC. I did have a child that was passed out from hysterically crying himself into unconsciousness, had nightmares, wouldn't let anyone but me touch him (even to hold), and was darn near comatose for three days straight. He ended up with infections off and on till he was about 11. There are a lot of factors that play into it. My son just got the worse end of the stick humanly possible. The second son was RIC, but entirely different manner and no issues. Third son is intact with no issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Does anyone know if males who choose circumcision as adults experience a loss of pleasure/slidability/sensation/etc.? Yes, there have been multiple studies. Most show self-reporting in the studies shows either increased pleasure and satisfaction post-circumcision or basically no differences. Believe that there was one study where is broke very slightly towards less satisfied. Statistically it seems like a non-issue. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am sure it is tragic and difficult to be circumcized as an elderly man because of lack of hygiene. However, I really, truly, cannot see that coming in to play as a decision factor for circumcizing an infant. I have ever known probably under 5 adult men who would tell me if they had a complaint about being circ'ed as an infant. (all were circ'ed) One of them is adamantly, extremely, anti-circ, and although I don't know him intimately (not my dh), he has said enough to make it clear that he feels being circ'ed was/is hurtful to his sexuality. He thinks circ'ing should be criminalized, and he is NOT a radical person politically on any other topic. (He did not have any surgical complications. Rather, his complaints are more along the lines of "stealing" the sensitivity that was a birthright.) Personally, I think it is reprehensible that poor hygiene be allowed in a disabled person. My elderly grandmother had repeat UTIs and kidney infections while in the nursing home. It was awful. It breaks my heart that elderly patients are so often neglected, but I don't think infant surgery is a solution. How about put $5000 in an investment account at birth, and save that $ for paying for a personal hygiene aide when needed? I am quite sure that proper hygiene CAN be performed at any age, but it might well require a very assertive advocate to obtain such care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 II have to admit that I am very glad that DH is circumcised. :blush: Same here. Okay. I'm sorry if I offend anyone one. But .....Ewww...Yuck! Lord, help me. I am a prude. That's what I was thinking, too. Ew. :ack2: What is RIC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I am sure it is tragic and difficult to be circumcized as an elderly man because of lack of hygiene. However, I really, truly, cannot see that coming in to play as a decision factor for circumcizing an infant. But there are benefits in infancy, childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, middle-age and old age. At every life-stage there are benefits. Personally, I think it is reprehensible that poor hygiene be allowed in a disabled person. My elderly grandmother had repeat UTIs and kidney infections while in the nursing home. It was awful. It breaks my heart that elderly patients are so often neglected, but I don't think infant surgery is a solution. I agree that neglect of the elderly is a problem, it is also truth that most elderly men are not entirely happy being dependent on care-givers needing to clean their private parts. Uncircumcised men require a lot more care. And it is not just old men. Uncircumcised men get UTIs at all stages of life, it is extremely rare among the circumcised. To say nothing of the increased risks of contacting diseases like HIV. It is a bigger picture than just old age care, but old age is one valid concern. How about put $5000 in an investment account at birth, and save that $ for paying for a personal hygiene aide when needed? I am quite sure that proper hygiene CAN be performed at any age, but it might well require a very assertive advocate to obtain such care. Nice thought. Not sure how practical. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay3fer Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 :lol: yeah, I was trying to be as discrete as possible, not easy when it's slideability one is discussing!And yes, the slideability is helpful (nice ;) ) for partners too. FWIW, and it's WAAaaay TMI, I never had a Jewish boyfriend/partner and had never seen one circ'd until my first dh came along. I had no clue what to do with it by that point. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 What is RIC? Routine Infant Circumcision Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 But there are benefits in infancy, childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, middle-age and old age. At every life-stage there are benefits. Questionable, but there are also benefits to having a foreskin. I agree that neglect of the elderly is a problem, it is also truth that most elderly men are not entirely happy being dependent on care-givers needing to clean their private parts. Uncircumcised men require a lot more care. I wouldn't call less than a minute a day to wash a lot more care. We do it for women. And it is not just old men. Uncircumcised men get UTIs at all stages of life, it is extremely rare among the circumcised. To say nothing of the increased risks of contacting diseases like HIV. It is a bigger picture than just old age care, but old age is one valid concern. actually UTIs are rare evev in intact men. And after one ear of age the rates are the same for intact and circumcised. Nice thought. Not sure how practical. Bill a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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