Would you allow your dc to attend a church sponsored weekend event if

[Denisemomof4]

... the leadership (pastors & adult helpers) would not tell you:

 

1) where your child will be,

2) who they will be with (other students or parent/leader), or

3) where they will be staying.

 

I am very, very frustrated and angry. Someone please tell me I am not overreacting. I have never had issue with our youth leadership before, but I'm spitting nails.

 

That is CRAZY. I've only read the above, and I would say NO, no, no. An EMPHATIC NO.

 

I used to be on the youth leadership team. I would never support this.

[Parrothead]

Um - I'd call the pastor right now and tell him that if I don't find out where my son is and what is going I'll have to call the cops to find him. Ridiculous!

:iagree:I'd demand to know where my child is, what he is doing, who he is doing it with and a number where I can reach my child immediately. I'd also put the church on notice that any damage, physical or psychological will be paid for by the church and that you will be seeing your attorney on Monday.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know, as the daughter of a persecuted Christian man, who escaped communist Ukraine in a way that would make John Grisham sit up and take notice, and who was incapable of telling his own wife all the unpleasant details of his early life, I actually find this quite offensive.

 

I get that they are trying to make it "real" for the kids. This is not the way to do it. I'd prefer my own kids had the chance to sit down and talk face to face to one who has actually lived it. I met Georgi Vins when I was 14. It was a pivotal moment in my Christian walk.

 

I heard Richard Wurmbrand speak. It was very powerful in a good way but I still had nightmares based on some of his stories.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

:iagree:I'd demand to know where my child is, what he is doing, who he is doing it with and a number where I can reach my child immediately. I'd also put the church on notice that any damage, physical or psychological will be paid for by the church and that you will be seeing your attorney on Monday.

 

I was thinking the attorney might be stop #1, because the Dad did sign everything and drop him off. So it's not quite the same as if the boy had been kidnapped.

 

I'd also rescind our church membership today.

 

I'm so angry for you, Shari. I don't blame your DH, of course, that does sound like a total blindsiding moment.

[mamajudy]

So, your son is there and you don't know where he is or what is going on? Yeah, the church would get an earful from me when this is over AND our membership would be rescinded.

 

:iagree: this is exactly the kind of thing that ticks me off about the youth groups. They get the kids all hyped up about an event before the parents even know what is going on, and then if the parents object, they're the bad guys! My family would not darken the door of that church again

[Alphabetika]

Nope. No possible way. And I'd be talking to the senior pastor about this, too.

[Josie]

... the leadership (pastors & adult helpers) would not tell you:

 

1) where your child will be,

2) who they will be with (other students or parent/leader), or

3) where they will be staying.

 

I am very, very frustrated and angry. Someone please tell me I am not overreacting. I have never had issue with our youth leadership before, but I'm spitting nails.

 

H-E-double-hockey-sticks NO! Not a chance in this world. What power trip are THEY on?

[Jennifer3141]

Um - I'd call the pastor right now and tell him that if I don't find out where my son is and what is going I'll have to call the cops to find him. Ridiculous!

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

Frankly, the senior pastor would be getting one courtesy call that if I wasn't informed of where my kids were and who they were with, the next phone call would be to the police. I would also just go get them because if anyone thinks in this day and age that it is appropriate to take children like this, they have to be CRAZY. Anyone ever heard of Joe Paterno?????

[ScoutTN]

No way! You are not overreacting.

[scrappyhappymama]

:iagree::iagree:

 

Frankly, the senior pastor would be getting one courtesy call that if I wasn't informed of where my kids were and who they were with, the next phone call would be to the police. I would also just go get them because if anyone thinks in this day and age that it is appropriate to take children like this, they have to be CRAZY. Anyone ever heard of Joe Paterno?????

I presume you mean Sandusky?

[Jennifer in MI]

I understand the pressure and also the dynamic of dh dropping him off. :grouphug:

 

That said, the weekend isn't over yet. Do you know where your child is? If not it may be time for a parental sit-in at the church office.

 

I understand too. To be blindsided with something like this is inexcusable.

 

:iagree:I'd demand to know where my child is, what he is doing, who he is doing it with and a number where I can reach my child immediately. I'd also put the church on notice that any damage, physical or psychological will be paid for by the church and that you will be seeing your attorney on Monday.

 

I don't know that I'd go so far as talking about an attorney yet. BUT, I'd be calling EVERYONE I know to find out where my child was. And, if they didn't want to tell me, THEN I'd go with the attorney thing.

[Catwoman]

Um - I'd call the pastor right now and tell him that if I don't find out where my son is and what is going I'll have to call the cops to find him. Ridiculous!

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, this. I would absolutely not tolerate this.

[Heather in Neverland]

Ummm... No I would not. :001_huh:

[Heather in Neverland]

:iagree: Although I am curious as to why it's only one family complaining in the article.

 

And another thing...I've been in a situation like this for REAL. As in police bursting through the door, guns drawn, taking my passport, hauling me off. While I will agree that it is an experience that teaches you what mettle you're made of, it is NOT something you force on people, particularly teens who just think they're going on a youth group trip. REAL people living in a REAL persecuted church situation KNOW what is at stake. It's almost a slap in the face to people that live it, you know?

 

I think it would be far more useful to spend time in prayer for the persecuted church and in gratitude that we don't have to deal with that carp here.

 

Well put.

 

 

.

[chepyl]

No way, never.

 

 

 

Regarding the above: the parents can know without "ruining" the effect they're going for. I'd be okay with the kids not knowing as long as the parents know everything. Then, as a parent, I can reassure my child and even share some information if that's what's best for my child. IMHO, leadership is wrong to not share everything with the parents.

 

Honestly, I'd be afraid of over-the-top theatrics in this scenario (staged arrests or worse). Kind of along the lines of the slavery and shooter things that have happened at schools.

 

:grouphug: to your ds...this really stinks.

 

 

When I was in high school we went on a mystery trip fall break. We had no idea where we were going, just a packing list that said: sleeping bag, clothes for mild to warm weather, etc. Our parents, however, new exactly where we were going and had contact numbers. We did not know until we stopped in San Antonio.

 

If the church did not tell me where they would be, I would not let my kids go.

[Joanne]

I did not read any of the posts other than the OP.

 

No, I would not; and I am uber liberal in terms of teen social autonomy (at least from a relative perspective on this board).

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I did not read any of the posts other than the OP.

 

No, I would not; and I am uber liberal in terms of teen social autonomy (at least from a relative perspective on this board).

 

Might want to read the last few pages, Joanne and others just joining. The OP's son is actually on this trip right now.

 

The waivers and permissions were all signed way in advance, and her DH was kind of blindsided at the point of drop-off. Didn't quite put it all together until after son had left with them that nobody knew where they went.

 

:(

[Lily_Grace]

I just read through all this and it makes me feel ill.

 

Um - I'd call the pastor right now and tell him that if I don't find out where my son is and what is going I'll have to call the cops to find him. Ridiculous!

 

Exactly. And not only that, but I would be standing up tomorrow at church and letting them know exactly what I thought and how my family would absolutely NOT be returning to a place that easily feels as though they own my child enough to not give information about his whereabouts. It is not okay. It is an opportunity for abuse and it will not be tolerated when it comes to my kid.

[Myeightkiddies]

I just added something new to research when trying to find a new church home. Number 15: Does the youth do mystery events? If so, do you inform the parents of the location and activities involved?

 

Seriously, it shouldn't have to be asked.

[Joanne]

Might want to read the last few pages, Joanne and others just joining. The OP's son is actually on this trip right now.

 

The waivers and permissions were all signed way in advance, and her DH was kind of blindsided at the point of drop-off. Didn't quite put it all together until after son had left with them that nobody knew where they went.

 

:(

 

OK, back after reading the entire thread. Again, in context, I am a uber liberal parent of teens.

 

In this situation, at this moment, I'd:

 

1. Call the cops and report kidnapping.

2. Call local media and tell them about the "event."

3. Call an attorney.

4. Document the "hype" of the event, the imposed secrecy, and the lack of returning my child upon command.

5. Leave this church, and begin looking, tomorrow, for a new one.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean in Newcastle

I wonder if this is the same simulation that the OPs church is doing? http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...6-16-13.0.html

 

That program ought to be titled:

 

"How to create a neurotic"

 

or

 

"How to make an atheist in 4 hours"

 

or

 

"Increasing the profit of local therapists"

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

I would be DEMANDING to know where my kid is. I'd give the senior pastor 1/2 hour to inform me of the exact location and the exact activities of my child, or I'd be calling the police. And maybe the local news.

[TravelingChris]

I would be so furious. I have three children who are either teens now or used to be. We have had them going to youth activities in many churches since we are military and always moving. Never have ai come across this. I think one church might have had a mystery trip which was not an overnight but a day trip and the parents knew.

 

I would be calling the senior pastor now.

 

I also don't understand the motivation for scaring the kids. It just isn't a good experience. Some will have scars, for others it will be meaningless. My last church had members who were escaping from persecution. We heard about this from them and no one needed to recreate anything. My parents were imprisoned in a Soviet Gulag. These stupid recreations have many downsides to them and I can't see an upside. Talk to people who are survivors from persecution. That is much more worthwhile and won't cause nightmares.

[mirth]

 

These youth weekends are really hyped ("You gotta sign up! It's going to be great! Lives will be changed! Don't miss it!") and there was no indication of the more serious content of this one until two days ago. Thus, our leadership put dh & I into the position of either having to 1) go along with the program despite our reservations, or 2) be the "bad guys" and pull ds from the weekend. Normally I don't have any problem with being Bad Mom, but this one was especially tough and really blindsided me.

 

Idea #1 is just not ok for us, which would give us only #2 as an alternative. So your son is already there, I gather. Please let us know how this weekend ends for you all.

[OrganicAnn]

Since your son is already there, I would have been tempted to call the pastor at 1:00 in the morning and say you need to get in contact with your son it is a family emergency. Since they wouldn't let you have any contact information, it is his responsibility to find him. Then call back at 2:00 and 3:00 or until they produced him. It would give me sleepless nights, so I'm want them to experience that too. Okay I probably wouldn't call, but I would want to.

[Dustybug]

This is a big case of closing the barn door after the horses have bolted. The event is already underway. We were given less than 48 hours notice about the content of the weekend (well, the theme at least; still don't know the actual content), and it was not until dh showed up to drop ds off that he realized we were not even going to be given the lodging information, or who was responsible for our kid, or who else would be in the group. Hence my fury and disbelief. If I had been the transport, ds would have come straight back home.

 

These youth weekends are really hyped ("You gotta sign up! It's going to be great! Lives will be changed! Don't miss it!") and there was no indication of the more serious content of this one until two days ago. Thus, our leadership put dh & I into the position of either having to 1) go along with the program despite our reservations, or 2) be the "bad guys" and pull ds from the weekend. Normally I don't have any problem with being Bad Mom, but this one was especially tough and really blindsided me.

 

:001_huh::smash: I really just can't believe that at all. I'd be pretty upset with my DH as well.

 

Um - I'd call the pastor right now and tell him that if I don't find out where my son is and what is going I'll have to call the cops to find him. Ridiculous!

 

:iagree::iagree:

[Mommy22alyns]

Nope, no way.

 

ETA: He's ON the trip already?!?!! Holy cow.

Edited January 14, 2012 by Mommy22alyns

[TranquilMind]

... the leadership (pastors & adult helpers) would not tell you:

 

1) where your child will be,

2) who they will be with (other students or parent/leader), or

3) where they will be staying.

 

I am very, very frustrated and angry. Someone please tell me I am not overreacting. I have never had issue with our youth leadership before, but I'm spitting nails.

Absolutely NOT. I always will know where my kid is, with whom, and she will have a plan of escape if necessary (in other words, no confiscation of the cell phone and no telling her she can't leave).

[Lacie]

Shari -

 

I am so sorry for what you are going through. How horrible it must be for you and your dh to not know where your child is, I can't imagine. I am praying for the safety of all the children on this trip and also that this can be resolved so you can have peace. Please keep us updated on what is going on. I'm sure we would all love to know where the kids were taken, what happened on the trip and most importantly that they all get home safely.

[TranquilMind]

Joanne: OK, back after reading the entire thread. Again, in context, I am a uber liberal parent of teens.

 

In this situation, at this moment, I'd:

 

1. Call the cops and report kidnapping.

2. Call local media and tell them about the "event."

3. Call an attorney.

4. Document the "hype" of the event, the imposed secrecy, and the lack of returning my child upon command.

5. Leave this church, and begin looking, tomorrow, for a new one.

 

 

Wow, I haven't read the thread yet, having only responded to the OP and looked back a little bit, but if YOU, and "uber-liberal parent", which I most certainly am NOT, are advocating calling the cops, the media and an attorney, I'm almost afraid to read the thread to see what has been done with her child!

[Jennifer3141]

I presume you mean Sandusky?

 

I was referring to the whole darn scandal basically. :)

[Jenny in Florida]

So, I've now posed this question to both of my kids:

 

Would you be interested in going away for a weekend with youth group if neither you nor we (your parents) knew where you were going, with whom you'd be staying, what you'd be doing and you weren't allowed to take your cell phone?

 

My daughter said, no way. It would make her anxious, and she would feel unsafe knowing we had no idea where she was.

 

My son said he would be curious and might decide he wanted to go, depending on which of his friends were going and who was supervising, but he would be uncomfortable and would REALLY want his cell phone.

[amey311]

OK, back after reading the entire thread. Again, in context, I am a uber liberal parent of teens.

 

In this situation, at this moment, I'd:

 

1. Call the cops and report kidnapping.

2. Call local media and tell them about the "event."

3. Call an attorney.

4. Document the "hype" of the event, the imposed secrecy, and the lack of returning my child upon command.

5. Leave this church, and begin looking, tomorrow, for a new one.

 

 

I'm a fan of hyperbole and everything, but I don't think much of this would fly, honestly. The child was dropped off with these people by his father. He wasn't kidnapped - one parent (and to read some of the threads here, the one who has the final say) decided that even with the limited information, this was still an acceptable choice for his child.

 

This child wasn't taken from a park, or picked up by a known adult and driven to places unknown with a parent's consent. He wasn't kidnapped. He was provided with supplies from home and a hearty "have a great time, sluggo!" from Dad and off he went with people he's supposed to trust.

 

People can scream media and police and be angry at the church all they want, but right now - none of that applies. He was given permission, complete with signed forms (again - you waived liability for an unknown activity??), by his parents.

 

Now, if said parents contact the church and demand to know where their child is now (because they want to know what's going on) and the church doesn't let them know where their child is, then I can see getting the police involved (not 911, but a serious phone call to the police).

 

Of course calling the police means getting the police involved in a church matter and not everyone is willing to deal with that.

[Joanne]

I'm a fan of hyperbole and everything, but I don't think much of this would fly, honestly. The child was dropped off with these people by his father. He wasn't kidnapped - one parent (and to read some of the threads here, the one who has the final say) decided that even with the limited information, this was still an acceptable choice for his child.

 

This child wasn't taken from a park, or picked up by a known adult and driven to places unknown with a parent's consent. He wasn't kidnapped. He was provided with supplies from home and a hearty "have a great time, sluggo!" from Dad and off he went with people he's supposed to trust.

 

People can scream media and police and be angry at the church all they want, but right now - none of that applies. He was given permission, complete with signed forms (again - you waived liability for an unknown activity??), by his parents.

 

Now, if said parents contact the church and demand to know where their child is now (because they want to know what's going on) and the church doesn't let them know where their child is, then I can see getting the police involved (not 911, but a serious phone call to the police).

 

Of course calling the police means getting the police involved in a church matter and not everyone is willing to deal with that.

 

You take my kid(s) anywhere, and don't tell me where = kidnapping.

[amey311]

You take my kid(s) anywhere, and don't tell me where = kidnapping.

 

Even if you let her go? I think that's the key bit here. You wouldn't put your kid in a car with another adult when you don't know where she's going. However, this dad put his kid in a car with other people without knowing where he's going.

 

Seriously, though, would you label it kidnapping after the fact if your kid was going out with Marge down the street and she said she was taking them to the mall and on the way home they stopped at McDonalds (as an unplanned stop)? That's taking her someplace that you don't know she's going. You did, however, give Marge permission to take your kid somewhere.

 

Maybe my thinking is skewed here, but it seems illogical to me to put a kid in a car with other adults (with signed permission slips, mind you) and the turn around and call the police because you don't know where he is. I can imagine the police officer asking "why didn't you find out where he was going before you put him in the car??"

[*Lulu*]

Even if you let her go? I think that's the key bit here. You wouldn't put your kid in a car with another adult when you don't know where she's going. However, this dad put his kid in a car with other people without knowing where he's going.

 

Seriously, though, would you label it kidnapping after the fact if your kid was going out with Marge down the street and she said she was taking them to the mall and on the way home they stopped at McDonalds (as an unplanned stop)? That's taking her someplace that you don't know she's going. You did, however, give Marge permission to take your kid somewhere.

 

Maybe my thinking is skewed here, but it seems illogical to me to put a kid in a car with other adults (with signed permission slips, mind you) and the turn around and call the police because you don't know where he is. I can imagine the police officer asking "why didn't you find out where he was going before you put him in the car??"

 

 

The difference is if I called Marge's cell phone and she wouldn't tell me where they were no one would think it unreasonable to call the police.

 

OP has asked the church to tell her where they are and been told they can't tell her. :glare:

[pdalley]

No.

 

And I'd be calling a lawyer. But then one of us goes with the boys to any youth trips. It's non negotiable with their issues.

 

It also goes without saying I'd be leaving that church posthaste once I had my child back. And I'd be on the phone until someone either told me where to get my child or my child was returned to me. And I would NEVER trust that person(s) again.

[TranquilMind]

You take my kid(s) anywhere, and don't tell me where = kidnapping.

Not if the parent handed the kid over and signed a release! Though I don't know how any sort of informed consent could be gained without any details as to what the parent was agreeing to...

[TheAutumnOak]

I'm a fan of hyperbole and everything, but I don't think much of this would fly, honestly. The child was dropped off with these people by his father. He wasn't kidnapped - one parent (and to read some of the threads here, the one who has the final say) decided that even with the limited information, this was still an acceptable choice for his child.

 

This child wasn't taken from a park, or picked up by a known adult and driven to places unknown with a parent's consent. He wasn't kidnapped. He was provided with supplies from home and a hearty "have a great time, sluggo!" from Dad and off he went with people he's supposed to trust.

 

People can scream media and police and be angry at the church all they want, but right now - none of that applies. He was given permission, complete with signed forms (again - you waived liability for an unknown activity??), by his parents.

 

Now, if said parents contact the church and demand to know where their child is now (because they want to know what's going on) and the church doesn't let them know where their child is, then I can see getting the police involved (not 911, but a serious phone call to the police).

 

Of course calling the police means getting the police involved in a church matter and not everyone is willing to deal with that.

 

Even if you let her go? I think that's the key bit here. You wouldn't put your kid in a car with another adult when you don't know where she's going. However, this dad put his kid in a car with other people without knowing where he's going.

 

Seriously, though, would you label it kidnapping after the fact if your kid was going out with Marge down the street and she said she was taking them to the mall and on the way home they stopped at McDonalds (as an unplanned stop)? That's taking her someplace that you don't know she's going. You did, however, give Marge permission to take your kid somewhere.

 

Maybe my thinking is skewed here, but it seems illogical to me to put a kid in a car with other adults (with signed permission slips, mind you) and the turn around and call the police because you don't know where he is. I can imagine the police officer asking "why didn't you find out where he was going before you put him in the car??"

 

I don't think your thinking is skewed and I agree with you...

[Wolfmeis]

No, it's not kidnapping. It's irresponsible and frankly, INSANE, but it's not legal kidnapping if the parents have handed over the child, paid for the trip and signed releases. It would only be kidnapping if they didn't bring the kid back on time or on demand.

 

Shari, I would love to hear an update from you, Momma!

[BatmansWife]

Certainly not!

[Sputterduck]

OP has asked the church to tell her where they are and been told they can't tell her. :glare:

 

I wouldn't think it unreasonable to call the police at that point.

[Whereneverever]

I wouldn't think it unreasonable to call the police at that point.

 

:iagree:

[Paisley Hedgehog]

OP has asked the church to tell her where they are and been told they can't tell her. :glare:

 

Wow this thread has gotten huge !

 

The above is not exactly true. I posted back I dont know how many pages ago that a friend working the event found ds on a rooming list. About 30min ago someone FB'd me that they saw ds at a fast food place locally. So I know he is around and is fine. Somewhere. He has not been kidnapped (not sure where that came from).

 

The event is over tomorrow. Ds will be thoroughly debriefed. And dh will be giving someone an earfull NOT a good weekend for Mom. Thank you all for your concern.

[GailV]

So, I've now posed this question to both of my kids:

 

Would you be interested in going away for a weekend with youth group if neither you nor we (your parents) knew where you were going, with whom you'd be staying, what you'd be doing and you weren't allowed to take your cell phone?

 

My daughter said, no way. It would make her anxious, and she would feel unsafe knowing we had no idea where she was.

 

My son said he would be curious and might decide he wanted to go, depending on which of his friends were going and who was supervising, but he would be uncomfortable and would REALLY want his cell phone.

 

I did this, too.

 

Well, I didn't ask the 12yo because I knew there was no way she'd go anyplace without a detailed itinerary given to her in advance, whether we knew all the details ourselves or not -- she has to understand it for herself to feel okay.

 

And the 16yo would have been peeved about not knowing what to pack, because she says "the packing list they give you is always wrong about something". Also, "how would I know it's worth skipping ballet?" let alone giving up several hours of time that could be used on homework. But she's used to not being allowed any electronics on trips like this.

 

 

Do you think the pastors of this church could possibly comprehend how amazing it is that pretty much everyone who has posted on this thread thinks this is a bad idea?

[Myeightkiddies]

bout 30min ago someone FB'd me that they saw ds at a fast food place locally. So I know he is around and is fine. Somewhere. He has not been kidnapped (not sure where that came from).

 

The event is over tomorrow. Ds will be thoroughly debriefed. And dh will be giving someone an earfull NOT a good weekend for Mom. Thank you all for your concern.

 

Certainly this event is worthy of all the secrecy. :rolleyes: Kids are going to fast food places but the leadership cannot tell parents where they are at all weekend?!

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wow this thread has gotten huge !

 

The above is not exactly true. I posted back I dont know how many pages ago that a friend working the event found ds on a rooming list. About 30min ago someone FB'd me that they saw ds at a fast food place locally. So I know he is around and is fine. Somewhere. He has not been kidnapped (not sure where that came from).

 

The event is over tomorrow. Ds will be thoroughly debriefed. And dh will be giving someone an earfull NOT a good weekend for Mom. Thank you all for your concern.

 

While I would not have let him go (and said so umpteen pages ago), I agree that somehow this is getting blown out of proportion once you and your husband let him go and had even signed permission slips for something that you didn't have any details about. My personal opinion at this point is that unless your ds comes home upset from something that happened, to let it go. And I would seriously review any future involvement in the program and even the church itself.

[zaichiki]

Certainly this event is worthy of all the secrecy. :rolleyes: Kids are going to fast food places but the leadership cannot tell parents where they are at all weekend?!

 

Yeah... that's weird.

[PeacefulChaos]

Wow this thread has gotten huge !

 

The above is not exactly true. I posted back I dont know how many pages ago that a friend working the event found ds on a rooming list. About 30min ago someone FB'd me that they saw ds at a fast food place locally. So I know he is around and is fine. Somewhere. He has not been kidnapped (not sure where that came from).

 

The event is over tomorrow. Ds will be thoroughly debriefed. And dh will be giving someone an earfull NOT a good weekend for Mom. Thank you all for your concern.

 

:lol: At the fast food restaurant. :D Heehee...

But seriously, I'm glad you at least know he is 'around' and safe. :)

I honestly think leaving the church would be going a little far...it is entirely possible that the rest of the staff and the board didn't even know the exacts of this thing. Even if they did, I don't know that it would be worth leaving, especially if they get the point that it was a bad idea to not tell parents where they were going and understand that. (aka never.do.it.again.)

I told DH about it and he was like, I don't even think churches can DO that. :001_huh: Ours couldn't, anyway. Then he added that he doesn't understand the preoccupation that some have with being persecuted. :D He said he'll gladly hear about it, tell about it, and stuff like that to make an impact, but the whole 'experience' thing...he was like, we're not persecuted. Why on earth do we want to pretend we are?? :lol:

[Lizzie in Ma]

... the leadership (pastors & adult helpers) would not tell you:

 

1) where your child will be,

2) who they will be with (other students or parent/leader), or

3) where they will be staying.

 

I am very, very frustrated and angry. Someone please tell me I am not overreacting. I have never had issue with our youth leadership before, but I'm spitting nails.

 

h*ll no

[mcconnellboys]

Are you kidding me? Of course not!