Sebastian (a lady) Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 They are intentionally not telling. It is supposed to be a simulation of the persecuted church. I had no idea this was what would be happening. Ds has been looking forward to the event for months. :mad: No way is keeping the parents in the dark necessary to have an event of spiritual growth. I would be having a detailed and blunt conversation. Stop. My husband would be having this conversation. It would start with the idea that God gave our children into our homes so that we could guide them spiritually and protect them physically. We are the parents who see them on a daily basis and are able to determine if the planned activities are appropriate for them emotionally and spiritually. Two thoughts. I had a long conversation with the head of the youth summer camp that ds's attend. We started with a conversation about kids and medications and how not knowing about special conditions (allergies, medical restrictions, neurological issues) can pose stumbling blocks and hidden traps for both the campers and the staff. He mentioned that when they did their "out of Egypt" program this summer, the special hard tasking (sweeping dirt roads and washing rocks) was only done with two camps. They felt that only 2 of the 4 oldest groups had campers of the right maturity for the simulations. They felt that do try it with the other groups would be an emotional hardship that would undermine the purpose of the camp. The second thought is this. DH and I get to determine which activities my kids participate in. Not any other leader of any group. If that means that we don't send our swimmer on the "fun" team outings (because we're busy and I feel the team is really too big for this to be of benefit), or not on a particular scout outing (because I'm not comfortable with the level of planning or with one of the event organizers) or on a church outing; that is simply our choice. When I was a teen, a 16 year old girl died on one of our church youth group outings while out on a water ski boat. It was a horrible accident and probably not the result of negligence. But there was no way I could say yes to our youth group's water ski trip. The trip would probably already be a no go. I would now be working on if I trusted the youth staff enough for my kids to continue to participate in the youth group at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remudamom Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Just read this to dh and he burst out laughing. I think he wants to know why exactly anyone attends this church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 This doesn't even make sense to me. I can understand the simulated persecution idea but there should be some communication to the parents about when/where who is going. You can make it a mystery for the kids without being ridiculous about it. My dh doesn't go places without my knowing where he is much less my child. :iagree: My kids wouldn't go. Then again, our youth pastor wouldn't try this -- he has some sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acurtis75 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well pigs have flown today, the WTM is unanimous on a church issue. :svengo: No, freakin' way. I'm pretty non-confrontational, but I'd be on the phone with the youth pastor all the way to senior pastor. What an insipid idea! You know it's a bad idea when you have 5 plus pages of people agreeing here. Has that every happened before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyCrazyMama Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Electronics are banned. :svengo: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GailV Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Well pigs have flown today, the WTM is unanimous on a church issue. :svengo: I know! It must be a sign! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paisley Hedgehog Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'm glad to know I know I'm not just being an overprotective helicopter Mom. Gonna go make some calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I know! It must be a sign! Of the apocalypse? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JumpyTheFrog Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I haven't read any replies. I absolutely would not allow my kids on the trip. How can I even help them make a packing list if it's a secret? And how do I know the adults in charge are trustworthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No way, never. Regarding the above: the parents can know without "ruining" the effect they're going for. I'd be okay with the kids not knowing as long as the parents know everything. Then, as a parent, I can reassure my child and even share some information if that's what's best for my child. IMHO, leadership is wrong to not share everything with the parents. Honestly, I'd be afraid of over-the-top theatrics in this scenario (staged arrests or worse). Kind of along the lines of the slavery and shooter things that have happened at schools. :grouphug: to your ds...this really stinks. :iagree: and :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MedicMom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Granted, I am a paramedic who has seen a lot of things with teens go horribly awry, so I am going into this a little paranoid. But there is No. Possible. Way. Not allowing cell phones + keeping things from the parents equals Huge, Huge red flags. I wouldnt even get a chance to call the youth pastor. My husband would have beat me to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatashainDFW Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Please let us know what the outcome of your phone calls is. I can't believe anyone thought this was a good idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myeightkiddies Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I wonder how many parents are actually going to let their children go. That is so ridiculous, beyond ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Um, no. No way. I work hard to fall on the free-range side of the free-range/helicopter divide, but for your child, possibly as young as 11 or 12, to be off for an entire weekend with no way to contact them, and no idea where they are, who they're with, or what they're doing? Absolutely not. That is ridiculous. And why should the parents be kept in the dark to have the desired effect on the kids anyway? It doesn't make any sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well pigs have flown today, the WTM is unanimous on a church issue. :svengo: No, freakin' way. I'm pretty non-confrontational, but I'd be on the phone with the youth pastor all the way to senior pastor. What an insipid idea! I know! It must be a sign! Of the apocalypse? ;) :lol::lol::lol: That's what I'm wondering! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nono Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Besides all the other reasons, who's to say this leader isn't the next Jim Jones? I mean really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommyagain Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 NO WAY, JOSE!!! And I would print out all these replies and show them to your church leadership! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myeightkiddies Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Besides all the other reasons, who's to say this leader isn't the next Jim Jones? I mean really! :blink: Well, yeah, there's that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Please let us know what the outcome of your phone calls is. I can't believe anyone thought this was a good idea! Yes! I'm curious as to how this turns out too! :001_huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No way, never. Regarding the above: the parents can know without "ruining" the effect they're going for. I'd be okay with the kids not knowing as long as the parents know everything. Then, as a parent, I can reassure my child and even share some information if that's what's best for my child. IMHO, leadership is wrong to not share everything with the parents. Honestly, I'd be afraid of over-the-top theatrics in this scenario (staged arrests or worse). Kind of along the lines of the slavery and shooter things that have happened at schools. :grouphug: to your ds...this really stinks. :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No way. Not in this lifetime. Not in the next. Not ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No. Of course not. I can hardly believe that they're even trying that. The church I grew up in did a missions minded "Road Rules" trip that was pretty cool- the teens didn't know where they were going/what they were doing, but the adults certainly did!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myfunnybunch Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 NO WAY. Nu-uh. Absolutely not. No. No. No. No. No. And I'm pretty relaxed compared to some about what I will and won't let my kids participate in. But :confused: Who in their right mind would think this is ok? Clearly the trip was planned by someone from another planet or some alternate universe. Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Elf Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 They are intentionally not telling. It is supposed to be a simulation of the persecuted church. I can see where they might try to keep it from the kids but I'm completely surprised that they want to keep it from the parents. I would talk directly with the youth pastor and even go higher up just to express my disbelief and concern that such a decision would be made regardless of the ages of the children. I can't help but wonder what kinds of activities they would have planned in such an event. It sounds like it could be intense and there may be kids who are really uncomfortable. I think someone got a little too exuberant and went overboard in their excitement of planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Absolutely NOT! No way, Jose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'smom Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Maybe when you talk to them you could point out the absurdity of having a women's retreat where no one told the husbands where they were going or a men's retreat where they wouldn't tell the wives where they were going. No one would go along with that either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 ... the leadership (pastors & adult helpers) would not tell you: 1) where your child will be, 2) who they will be with (other students or parent/leader), or 3) where they will be staying. I am very, very frustrated and angry. Someone please tell me I am not overreacting. I have never had issue with our youth leadership before, but I'm spitting nails. Our youth group does a 9th grade mystery trip for rising 9th graders. We don't know where they are going or exactly where they are staying. (It's for a weekend and they go do something fun like tubing, etc.) We do know who the leaders are. I trust our youth minister and there have never been any problems on the trips. The kids have fun. He would tell us if we asked, I am sure, but it's fun for it to be a total surprise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSinNH Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Let me think about it..........uuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmm.........NO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No way and I'd drop my kids in a minute from the whole group over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lang Syne Boardie Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 This is sick. No way. But I want to know the name of your church, honestly, I've seen a lot of lame @$$ dip $h!t youth stuff but this one really deserves an award for the most idiotic, ill conceived notion that stupid youth leaders have EVER come up with. I'll pay for the award myself, all I need is an address. I'll chip in $5 toward the award if I can add a special little note. OP, I wouldn't trust these people to drive my kid to Burger King in the future. Stay away from them, and keep your kids away. Normal people don't want to spirit away your offspring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Our youth group does a 9th grade mystery trip for rising 9th graders. We don't know where they are going or exactly where they are staying. (It's for a weekend and they go do something fun like tubing, etc.) We do know who the leaders are. I trust our youth minister and there have never been any problems on the trips. The kids have fun. He would tell us if we asked, I am sure, but it's fun for it to be a total surprise. Our lone dissenter:001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twigs Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Here is the 1st line from this article about shootings at a church in 1999. When Glen Bucy first heard gunshots outside the sanctuary of Wedgwood Baptist Church the night of Sept. 15, he thought it was part of a skit. I am opposed to "surprise" simulations in all situations involving children and teens, and almost all situations for adults (they might be ok for actual training purposes, but I think there should be some warning that such training does happen.) Best wishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amey311 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 (PP said "when monkeys fly")Or pigs. :D Well pigs have flown today, the WTM is unanimous on a church issue. :svengo: Does this mean everyone will now let their kids go? :D And how do I know the adults in charge are trustworthy? Perhaps church leadership is assuming that you're going to trust them because of actions in the past? Or that you're supposed to trust them just because they are church leadership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Here is the 1st line from this article about shootings at a church in 1999. I am opposed to "surprise" simulations in all situations involving children and teens, and almost all situations for adults (they might be ok for actual training purposes, but I think there should be some warning that such training does happen.) Best wishes. Those kind of spiritual *experiences* make me soooo angry. People should not do that to their kids, it can take years to undo that crap. You can only scare people into obedience so far, then they start to think that God is just to be feared and obeyed out of fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Absolutely not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Not a chance. That's terrible leadership. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Well pigs have flown today, the WTM is unanimous on a church issue. :svengo: :lol: No, freakin' way. I'm pretty non-confrontational, but I'd be on the phone with the youth pastor all the way to senior pastor. What an insipid idea! :iagree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Those kind of spiritual *experiences* make me soooo angry. People should not do that to their kids, it can take years to undo that crap. You can only scare people into obedience so far, then they start to think that God is just to be loved and obeyed out of fear. They did that to us one time in Awana. They were trying to simulate being taken away as Jews during WWII. I think I was in 4th grade. The girls started laughing, not like making fun, but laughing because is was distressing as a fear response. We had no clue what was going on. The leaders got extremely bent out of shape because we weren't taking it seriously enough to them. They started yelling at us because it wasn't going as planned. That church had lots of issues. We quit Awana that year, not sure the real reason, but that incident didn't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Does this mean everyone will now let their kids go? :D Perhaps church leadership is assuming that you're going to trust them because of actions in the past? Or that you're supposed to trust them just because they are church leadership? This would be my guess. It would also be my guess that those who feel that way have never felt the effects of a church leader who has abused his/her power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenC Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I wouldn't allow my child to attend any event anywhere without all of that information and more. Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soror Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 They did that to us one time in Awana. They were trying to simulate being taken away as Jews during WWII. I think I was in 4th grade. The girls started laughing, not like making fun, but laughing because is was distressing as a fear response. We had no clue what was going on. The leaders got extremely bent out of shape because we weren't taking it seriously enough to them. They started yelling at us because it wasn't going as planned. That church had lots of issues. We quit Awana that year, not sure the real reason, but that incident didn't help. Wow, what exactly is that supposed to accomplish, insane. This would be my guess. It would also be my guess that those who feel that way have never felt the effects of a church leader who has abused his/her power. I've never had a church leader abuse power. I have been a part of the lets scare you to death experiences. The leaders had the best of intentions , it was no less traumatizing. I didn't talk about it at the time. I had nightmares for years and it was nothing close to something like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I've never had a church leader abuse power. I have been a part of the lets scare you to death experiences. The leaders had the best of intentions , it was no less traumatizing. I didn't talk about it at the time. I had nightmares for years and it was nothing close to something like this. But see, I think that is an abuse of power, even if it was done with the best of intentions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
higginszoo Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I've worked with my church's high school youth group. There is no way the director would consider asking for the kids to go anywhere without letting the parents know where they were going or what they'd be doing (at least in general terms). He might leave the 'who' as 'youth staff and volunteers', but if parents wanted more detail, he'd give it. (There might be a 'don't tell the kids, we want a surprise' factor, but he'd tell the parents.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Are they going to have someone break in on them and scare them to death for effect as well? No insurance company would back up a trip where parents were uninformed. How can you sign a permission trip to nowhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 No way. And no how. And I know all about the Persecuted Church simulation. It was a controversial part of a big Youth Gathering 18 months ago. My dd attended the gathering, but they did not participate in the PC thing. No way. And no how. But here is what else I know. I am the only person in my congregation who wouldn't say, "Woah, how cool!" And that I do not understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 They are intentionally not telling. It is supposed to be a simulation of the persecuted church. I had no idea this was what would be happening. Ds has been looking forward to the event for months. :mad: I get the persecuted church simulation. But it does not make any sense to keep the parents out of the loop. Kids, sure, it can be part of the experience. Parents? That's ridiculous. :glare: We've had persecuted church simulations before, but only on Wednesday nights during regular service, at the regular building, regular time. It was more of a 'martyr service' though. They were pretty cool. I was a leader at the time and I really liked them. (so did the youth.) The ban of electronic devices for the kids (cell phones, etc) makes total sense to me. That's a norm on a lot of trips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I wonder if this is the same simulation that the OPs church is doing? http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/juneweb-only/6-16-13.0.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I wonder if this is the same simulation that the OPs church is doing? http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/juneweb-only/6-16-13.0.html :svengo: That is WAAAYYYY overboard. Nothing like what we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myeightkiddies Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I still do not understand them not informing parents. If they want to keep it a surprise for the youth, that's fine. Give the details to the parents and allow the parents to determine whether or not the activity is suitable for their child. Someone is not thinking this through. Telling the parents more information isn't going to ruin the experience. Hopefully, someone in leadership will be the voice of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I wonder if this is the same simulation that the OPs church is doing? http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/juneweb-only/6-16-13.0.html OP, you may want to bring this article to the ministry's attention. This is mentally & emotionally abusive/traumatic...it's wrong, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts