Why I Hate Religion But Love Jesus

[mommaduck]

:grouphug: I didn't mean to make you feel bad.

 

Susan

you didn't...I'm just trying to be careful not to hurt anyone.

[tntgoodwin]

I saw this response to it I thought was pretty good.

 

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/13/does-jesus-hate-religion-kinda-sorta-not-really/

[Heather in Neverland]

I saw this response to it I thought was pretty good.

 

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/13/does-jesus-hate-religion-kinda-sorta-not-really/

 

I just read that, too. Spot on. Kevin DeYoung always nails it.

[*********]

Has anybody heard the song "My Jesus" by Todd Agnew?

 

One of my all time favorite songs. :)

 

 

[Nakia]

I saw this response to it I thought was pretty good.

 

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/13/does-jesus-hate-religion-kinda-sorta-not-really/

 

I can definitely appreciate his take on it though I don't agree with all of it. I think he realizes Jefferson Bethke means legalism and man-made "religion."

[Nakia]

One of my all time favorite songs. :)

 

 

 

Me too!!!!

 

Can we be bffs? :D

[*********]

Me too!!!!

 

Can we be bffs? :D

 

 

Totally. :001_smile:

[Nakia]

Nakia, you rock! I started to respond to all of this and by the time I got back, you had already done so. :001_wub: Love to you my sister.

 

 

And love to you as well! I appreciate you very much!!

 

That was truly amazing. Had I ever heard that from a priest or minister I might not believe christianity is no longer about Christ but about institutions built on his name. You rock Nakia. You are challenging and complicated and I never, ever know where you are going with a post. No little niche for you...and that is a very good thing. :001_smile:

 

Wow, thank you. That means a lot to me. God bless you.

[Nakia]

Totally. :001_smile:

 

 

We really should converse more. :001_wub:

[justamouse]

I can totally see why it's gone viral. I think it speaks to the anger at the establishment that so many people are feeling right now-rightly so. But as you unpack it, that's where it starts to show holes.

[Lovedtodeath]

The message is not just about anger, it could help confused people who depend on their denominational teachings or membership to an institution.

 

If someone on this thread said these things it would be construed as angry, they might be cautioned to let go of their negative feelings. But even so, Jesus was angry too, wasn't he? Not all anger is the negative emotion that we should avoid. Anger can be righteous.

 

But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites,

they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

 

 

“They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger. “But they do all their deeds to be noticed by men;

 

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

 

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. you have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others. “You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

“So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

“You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Of course God is angry at modern day Pharisees, and those who are filled with Him are angry too.

[lluv]

I didn't read all the posts, but still wanted to contribute ;). My brother sent me this yesterday and while I agree with most of what he says and appreciate his efforts, it still bothered me a little. He is trying to use a "shock tactic" to get his point across (I think of Mark Driscoll), but it obviously worked, considering how many views he's gotten.

 

I interpreted his use of "religion" to mean legalism. He is saying that people/churches/denominations are/can be legalistic (do this, not that), miss the mark and completely forget about Jesus, the true implication of the cross and the saving grace we've been given. I agree 100%. I guess what bothers me is how people could misinterpret this. He seems to be mainly talking to other Christians, so I'm especially concerned about how a lost person might interpret this. Can we truly expect "the world" to understand how "religion" is different from "saving grace"? My initial thought is no.

 

Because people throw around the word "religion" when they have absolutely no faith, no "reconnection" (as someone posted above), and use it to say they are a Christian...when in fact, they are "just religious"...going through the motions and most religions have rituals and such. I think it's a great point...I'm not religious...I dont' have rituals and I don't just say I'm a christian. I AM a Christian, and I AM His. I think the heart of it is totally right. Religion is out...relationship is real.

 

:iagree: It's not popular to talk about- people claim to be a Christian, but you cannot see any evidence of it at all.

Edited January 14, 2012 by lluv

[Nakia]

Catholics for one do not believe/agree with this interpretation. We believe "The Church" is real on this earth.

 

I know it would be impossible to explain your entire faith on this thread, and I don't expect you to, but can you tell me a little about what you mean in the statement I quoted above? I admit I don't know a whole lot about the Catholic faith having only read about it and known one practicing Catholic irl. Do you mean Catholics believe Jesus was referring to a building when He spoke about "the church?" Or do you believe He was referring to only Catholics? Please know I am just curious, no snark intended.

[Aelwydd]

I know it would be impossible to explain your entire faith on this thread, and I don't expect you to, but can you tell me a little about what you mean in the statement I quoted above? I admit I don't know a whole lot about the Catholic faith having only read about it and known one practicing Catholic irl. Do you mean Catholics believe Jesus was referring to a building when He spoke about "the church?" Or do you believe He was referring to only Catholics? Please know I am just curious, no snark intended.

 

I think what she meant wasn't the physical buildings, but the particular group of Christians who have inherited the "fullness of the faith," through the apostolic priesthood, and through the practice and communion of the faithful. That is, the Church who participates fully in a corporeal sense through the Sacraments and the Liturgy.

 

IOW, she was affirming a real, visible, and definable body of believers as "the Church." That is why Catholics refer to Protestants as their separated brethren--"brethren" because they are Christian, but "separated" from the Church to varying degrees, and thus are not fully participating in their spiritual heritage.

 

That is a distinct difference from claiming the universality of the Church as being comprised instead of many amorphous, disparate groups claiming the name of Christ, and all as equal participants and recipients of the gifts entrusted to the Church.

 

In short, it's an identity thing.

 

P.S. If I have misrepresented or misunderstood, I apologize! The above is my understanding of the RC viewpoint from reading the Catechism and studying the Doctors and the Saints for several years.

[Aelwydd]

You know what, I just watched the video Nakia posted, and I was prepared to dislike it, based on some of the responses on this thread.

 

But I really liked it, especially his emphasis on Jesus' mission and work, versus the socio-political-cultural thing that encompasses much of Christianity. He's right to point out the hypocrisy of so many Christians. If there's one thing I would critique, it's that religion itself is not the cause of this hypocrisy--after all, the Bible itself, commends "pure and undefiled religion."

 

But religious dogma, practice, and tradition are all excellent smoke-screens for some really awful and terrible behaviors, ideals, and attitudes.

 

Also, I would just like to point out that a lot of Christians like to equate "religion" with the more traditional or religious churches. While I agree there is a lot of stultifying beliefs in many of these, I would strongly rebuke anyone who would pretend that the non-denominational/ evangelistic/ "relationship-over-religion" flavored churches out there are any less steeped in self-righteousness.

 

I grew up in a charismatic, evangelical, "free-spirit" church, and the single. biggest. reason. I left was because I felt so oppressed by the church's leadership to always have to express my faith in an overt, emotional manner. Otherwise, I wasn't "in the Spirit." I grew tired of having this expectation that if I didn't raise my hands, cry, smile, pray loudly and so forth, that my faith was lacking, and I was failing God in some very personal way. I grew up "going through the (e-)motions" in order to maintain the image that I was in step with their vision of how worship should be.

 

Furthermore, they had paaaaahhh--lenty of rules to follow. "Don't listen to this music, it's not edifying." "Would Jesus really be pleased if you wore those shorts?" (They were knee-length, FTR.) "You shouldn't drink." "Dancing is of the flesh, and you're inviting sin."

 

 

Point being, the legalism was alive and well in this so-called Spirit-filled, charismatic, "living church." And we were regularly reminded how lucky we were not to be one of the "frozen chosen," those poor souls littering the pews of countless high churches out there, who were so self-assured about their status as Christians.

 

That's right. We self-congratulated ourselves about our assurance of being Real Christians instead of being self-congratulatory non-real Christians.

 

(I know, it's all really confusing.)

 

So, I liked the video because it seems to me he is speaking to all types of hypocritical Christians, not just the ones that get the "smells and bells" of high church. Least, that's the way I took it.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

I grew up in a charismatic, evangelical, "free-spirit" church, and the single. biggest. reason. I left was because I felt so oppressed by the church's leadership to always have to express my faith in an overt, emotional manner. Otherwise, I wasn't "in the Spirit." I grew tired of having this expectation that if I didn't raise my hands, cry, smile, pray loudly and so forth, that my faith was lacking, and I was failing God in some very personal way. I grew up "going through the (e-)motions" in order to maintain the image that I was in step with their vision of how worship should be.

 

Furthermore, they had paaaaahhh--lenty of rules to follow. "Don't listen to this music, it's not edifying." "Would Jesus really be pleased if you wore those shorts?" (They were knee-length, FTR.) "You shouldn't drink." "Dancing is of the flesh, and you're inviting sin."

 

.

 

Holy moly, did we go to the same church????

 

I'd have to add no movie theaters or bowling alleys and no swimming in mixed company and no make up or jewelry to the list. :glare:

 

 

.

[LG Gone Wild]

Holy moly, did we go to the same church????

 

I'd have to add no movie theaters or bowling alleys and no swimming in mixed company and no make up or jewelry to the list. :glare:

 

 

.

 

Wow!

 

OTH, there are other ministries - adult themed. Basically, a pastor and his wife are going to livestream their bedroom for seven days.

Edited January 14, 2012 by LG Gone Wild

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Holy moly, did we go to the same church????

 

I'd have to add no movie theaters or bowling alleys and no swimming in mixed company and no make up or jewelry to the list. :glare:

 

 

.

 

Heather, I think that we ALL went to this same church. Along with the previously mentioned craziness was the "can't say potluck (say "pot BLESS" instead) and saying devilled eggs is evil and we say "angel eggs" in it's place). Oh, and Cabbage Patch dolls and smurfs were forbidden, too since they were demonic. :001_huh:

[HappyCrazyMama]

Heather, I think that we ALL went to this same church. Along with the previously mentioned craziness was the "can't say potluck (say "pot BLESS" instead) and saying devilled eggs is evil and we say "angel eggs" in it's place). Oh, and Cabbage Patch dolls and smurfs were forbidden, too since they were demonic. :001_huh:

I don't usually feel that growing up unchurched was a blessing. Hmmm....:tongue_smilie:

[mytwomonkeys]

Heather, I think that we ALL went to this same church. Along with the previously mentioned craziness was the "can't say potluck (say "pot BLESS" instead) and saying devilled eggs is evil and we say "angel eggs" in it's place). Oh, and Cabbage Patch dolls and smurfs were forbidden, too since they were demonic. :001_huh:

 

wow! just wow. angel eggs & potbless, lol. but why were smurfs and cabbage patch kids bad? i don't even understand that:confused:

[milovany]

I know it would be impossible to explain your entire faith on this thread, and I don't expect you to, but can you tell me a little about what you mean in the statement I quoted above? I admit I don't know a whole lot about the Catholic faith having only read about it and known one practicing Catholic irl. Do you mean Catholics believe Jesus was referring to a building when He spoke about "the church?" Or do you believe He was referring to only Catholics? Please know I am just curious, no snark intended.

 

If I may add to what LG Gone Wild stated well (although I'm writing from the Eastern Orthodox prospective; both Orthodox and Catholic know they were united as one church until 1054AD, but disagree on who separated from who at the Great Schism, therefore disagree on which is the "original" church; we still share a lot of history and understanding of certain things).

 

The physical, touchable things that are a part of our faith are part of the "visibility" of church, too. Christ instituted sacraments and the apostles continued them, as did their disciples (who taught their disciples, etc.). These have continued unchanged through the history of the church, and can be physically found in this Church. The same could be said of our hierarchy, their vestments, our liturgy, our festal season, our prayers, our icons, and yes, even our buildings (in a way, to a degree). These are things that are Orthodox (or Catholic) and can only be found in an Orthodox (or Catholic) church. If you go to an Orthodox church, there will be icons on the walls, they'll all be celebrating the feast of Pascha (Easter) on the same day, there will be monks praying the same prayers of the hours in their monasteries, we'll be saying the same Nicene Creed, the altar in the church will be behind an iconostasis with the Theotokos on the left and Christ on the right, there will be no rogue priests (all will have been ordained by a bishop of the church, who was ordained by a bishop of the church, all the way back), etc. Some people think of these as "trappings," I think, (extraneous?), but to us, they are actually essential to our faith, not extra things tacked on, because the living Church developed them, guided by the Holy Spirit. They are gifts from God that we can't get rid of to "simplify" our faith down to just relationship with Jesus. We find relationship with the Trinity through these things.

 

I hope that makes sense and answers the question a little more (without sounding elitist or self-righteous; just trying to explain, not judge). I'm sure there's even more that can be added!

 

*Sorry to write "Orthodox or Catholic" so much, but want to respect the Catholic Christians and their beliefs.

Edited January 14, 2012 by milovaný

[Word Nerd]

wow! just wow. angel eggs & potbless, lol. but why were smurfs and cabbage patch kids bad? i don't even understand that:confused:

 

There was a Terror in the Toybox book that was popular in some circles in the 80s.

[twoxcell]

Here is a follow up blog to the one I posted yesterday!

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/14/following-up-on-the-jesusreligion-video/

[TracyR]

Though I agreed with some things he said. Such as people going to church and acting like Christians on Sunday only to go out and sin the other 6 days of the week is very true. I see this all of the time, no matter what church we've belonged too. Including our Catholic church. Those who are (put your religion here) one day a week and are evil and ugly on the inside the other 6 days of the week.

 

I agree being Republican does not make you a Christian. Though I am Republican there are those who think abortion is okay , as long as they aren't doing it and so forth. So I agree with that.

 

But I don't believe that Jesus wanted to abolish religion. That was never his intention at all, and it says so in the Bible. I don't believe that the churches don't feed the poor. Like another poster said the Catholic church is the largest contributor to helping the poor or those who are in need in the universe. Even a friend of mine told me last year that they were low on food and she called our church. WE had an awesome priest at the time too. He literally picked her up, took her to the store, and bought her food, and guess what? They aren't Catholic!

 

It sounds as if this young man has had a bad experience with the church(es) he's been with. That he isn't very versed in the Bible and he really needs to research what he says before recording it for all the world to see. This can be VERY dangerous in the hands of children/young adults who too are not very versed in their faith yet as wel, and for those who are having difficulty with their faith. I could see my husband believing this because right now he is very bitter and wants to blame God and the church for all his problems ( ones that he has created).

Edited January 14, 2012 by TracyR

[TracyR]

Holy moly, did we go to the same church????

 

I'd have to add no movie theaters or bowling alleys and no swimming in mixed company and no make up or jewelry to the list. :glare:

 

 

.

 

Sounds like the Baptist school and church I went to as a child.

[Carol in Cal.]

Confessional Lutheran rebuttal:

 

[Nakia]

Thank you for the explanations about the Catholic church's view on "the church." I appreciate you both taking the time to type that out for me.

 

I go to a nondenominational, charismatic, Spirit-filled church that is nothing like the ones some of you are describing. I don't have time to type out all of the reasons why, gotta go to work, but I did want to post in case someone was wondering if they are "all like that." They aren't. Mine is the most amazing church I've ever belonged to.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

There was a Terror in the Toybox book that was popular in some circles in the 80s.

 

 

Yep.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Turmoil-Toy-Box-Phil-Phillips/dp/0914984047/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1326580514&sr=1-1-catcorr

[TheCoffeeChick]

Confessional Lutheran rebuttal:

 

 

 

I was just going to post this, but I thought I'd check to see if you did first. ;) This one is great!

[Whereneverever]

I was just going to post this, but I thought I'd check to see if you did first. ;) This one is great!

 

Haha, ditto!

[twoxcell]

Confessional Lutheran rebuttal:

 

 

Like this! Thanks for sharing.

[justamouse]

.

Edited January 15, 2012 by justamouse
I edited out the bad link

[Lovedtodeath]

Also, I would just like to point out that a lot of Christians like to equate "religion" with the more traditional or religious churches. While I agree there is a lot of stultifying beliefs in many of these, I would strongly rebuke anyone who would pretend that the non-denominational/ evangelistic/ "relationship-over-religion" flavored churches out there are any less steeped in self-righteousness.

 

So, I liked the video because it seems to me he is speaking to all types of hypocritical Christians, not just the ones that get the "smells and bells" of high church. Least, that's the way I took it.

Thank you.

 

and thank you for sharing your experience. IMO, a denominational or non-denominational label doesn't tell you that much.

[Sweet Charlotte]

Wow!

 

OTH, there are other ministries - adult themed. Basically, a pastor and his wife are going to livestream their bedroom for seven days.

 

 

I think you missed a letter in the link! That one takes me to a decidedly NOT ministry related site, lol.

 

I think this http://thesexperiment.com/bedin may be the one you were talking about.

 

Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with either of the above sites, and have never heard of them before 5 min ago, just saying...

[Lovedtodeath]

If I may add to what LG Gone Wild stated well (although I'm writing from the Eastern Orthodox prospective; both Orthodox and Catholic know they were united as one church until 1054AD, but disagree on who separated from who at the Great Schism, therefore disagree on which is the "original" church; we still share a lot of history and understanding of certain things).

 

The physical, touchable things that are a part of our faith are part of the "visibility" of church, too. Christ instituted sacraments and the apostles continued them, as did their disciples (who taught their disciples, etc.). These have continued unchanged through the history of the church, and can be physically found in this Church. The same could be said of our hierarchy, their vestments, our liturgy, our festal season, our prayers, our icons, and yes, even our buildings (in a way, to a degree). These are things that are Orthodox (or Catholic) and can only be found in an Orthodox (or Catholic) church. If you go to an Orthodox church, there will be icons on the walls, they'll all be celebrating the feast of Pascha (Easter) on the same day, there will be monks praying the same prayers of the hours in their monasteries, we'll be saying the same Nicene Creed, the altar in the church will be behind an iconostasis with the Theotokos on the left and Christ on the right, there will be no rogue priests (all will have been ordained by a bishop of the church, who was ordained by a bishop of the church, all the way back), etc. Some people think of these as "trappings," I think, (extraneous?), but to us, they are actually essential to our faith, not extra things tacked on, because the living Church developed them, guided by the Holy Spirit. They are gifts from God that we can't get rid of to "simplify" our faith down to just relationship with Jesus. We find relationship with the Trinity through these things.

:grouphug: I think that these things, as a symbol of the spiritual, teach us about the spiritual, just like baptism and communion. (I know you don't believe that about baptism and communion, but that is my belief.)

[justamouse]

Here is a follow up blog to the one I posted yesterday!

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/14/following-up-on-the-jesusreligion-video/

 

That is awesome. Because, I have to say, I felt really bad for the kid. Sometimes we have NO idea what we're stepping into, and he seems gracious enough to be corrected, especially on such a huge stage with such bright lights. And, though it wasn't the good theology, he does need to understand that it started a conversation, and that's not a bad thing.

[twoxcell]

This thread reminded me of Sergeant York and Old Time Religion! I love that movie.

[Lovedtodeath]

I just have to say I LOVE this in the Catholic rebuttal.

 

“If Jesus came to your church, would they let him in?â€

Um, yes. We actually snagged a picture.

;)

[twoxcell]

That is awesome. Because, I have to say, I felt really bad for the kid. Sometimes we have NO idea what we're stepping into, and he seems gracious enough to be corrected, especially on such a huge stage with such bright lights. And, though it wasn't the good theology, he does need to understand that it started a conversation, and that's not a bad thing.

:iagree: I thought it was great too!

[twoxcell]

I just have to say I LOVE this in the Catholic rebuttal.

 

Quote:

“If Jesus came to your church, would they let him in?â€

Um, yes. We actually snagged a picture.

;)

 

In the Lutheran video he said, Um Jesus is at our church every Sunday.;)

[twoxcell]

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.†Matthew 18:20

[Lovedtodeath]

Here is a follow up blog to the one I posted yesterday!

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2012/01/14/following-up-on-the-jesusreligion-video/

Acts 18:26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. :001_wub:

[milovany]

:grouphug: I think that these things, as a symbol of the spiritual, teach us about the spiritual, just like baptism and communion. (I know you don't believe that about baptism and communion, but that is my belief.)

 

I understand that, Carmen. :grouphug: But since the church believed these things were what Christ taught they were (real, not symbolic) until about 500 years ago -- and even then, only in rare groups-- I'll have to go with what Christ taught and how the church functioned for 1500 years before a different idea began creeping in. ;) I'm saying that with cheer, not argumentatively, but it is what most of the Christian world believes.

[Lovedtodeath]

I understand that, Carmen. :grouphug: But since the church believed these things were what Christ taught they were (real, not symbolic) until about 500 years ago -- and even then, only in rare groups-- I'll have to go with what Christ taught and how the church functioned for 1500 years before a different idea began creeping in. ;) I'm saying that with cheer, not argumentatively, but it is what most of the Christian world believes.

Interesting.

 

What do you think about the other things? Is their purpose for teaching?

[LG Gone Wild]

Interesting.

 

What do you think about the other things? Is their purpose for teaching?

 

What other things are you referring to? The sacraments? In case you were, the sacraments are not for teaching, they are signs AND they give grace. Baptism, for instance, leaves an indelible mark on the soul.

[LG Gone Wild]

I think you missed a letter in the link! That one takes me to a decidedly NOT ministry related site, lol.

 

I think this http://thesexperiment.com/bedin may be the one you were talking about.

 

Disclaimer: I am in no way connected with either of the above sites, and have never heard of them before 5 min ago, just saying...

 

Oops, sorry. Yes, you have the correct link.

[milovany]

What do you think about the other things? Is their purpose for teaching?

 

Their purpose is for union with Christ; they are for our salvation.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Their purpose is for union with Christ; they are for our salvation.

Thank you for answering with your viewpoint.

[milovany]

Thank you for answering with your viewpoint.

 

You're welcome! :001_smile: Hopefully you understood that I didn't mean if we fast and go to liturgy and light candles and participate in the festal cycle and what-not we find salvation by checking these things off a list; instead because we participate in them, because we live the life prescribed by the church, because we pray and submit to His ways, we are changed/healed/made whole in Christ, and so come into union with Him. It's a lifelong process and is both wonderful and very, very hard (because my being resists true healing/wholeness all. the. time.). And yet, as with the Apostle Paul, I "press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me" and continue "work[ing] out [my] salvation with fear and trembling." Have a great Sunday, Carmen! Christ is risen! Truly He is risen!

[Lovedtodeath]

You're welcome! :001_smile: Hopefully you understood that I didn't mean if we fast and go to liturgy and light candles and participate in the festal cycle and what-not we find salvation by checking these things off a list; instead because we participate in them, because we live the life prescribed by the church, because we pray and submit to His ways, we are changed/healed/made whole in Christ, and so come into union with Him.

Thank you for the added details.

 

Hmmm... I guess my viewpoint is that everything... everything God has planned from the beginning to teach us. The Old Testament, many of the events recorded, is so we can learn from them. For example, I think of Israel insisting on having a human king, and the Lord provided one for them, but it was not what He wanted... it was not the ideal. In addition, the first time I partook of communion I gained a deeper understanding of things. So my view of liturgy and the festal cycle, etc. is that we learn from them, and by learning we are changed.