History not working-fifth grade.

[Catherine]

My fifth grade ds is just hating the TWTM-style history we are attempting to do. I have him read the sections of the history encyclopedia, write facts, outline, do research. Etc. He just is not interested in the topics, hates writing, etc.

 

He is a very reluctant writer. That is certainly part of our problem. But given that, and the fact that he's only 10 1\2, is struggling through WWE 3 this year, I think he's just too young for this and I'm planning a mid-year switch of gears. So far, what I've planned is to have him listen to The Teaching Company's Famous Greeks (he loves it) and Famous Romans, several documentaries are in my Netflix list, I have several books plus TWTM's ancients reading list, which he's doing OK with.

 

Can anyone recommend a history curriculum that I can use as a guide? Something that does include writing, as he very much needs the practice. OR should I push him to write using WWE?

[Candid]

I think the other thing I would do is find different resources than encyclopedia style books. Instead find topic specific and more narrative books. Even with gobs of illustrations encyclopedia sorts of things can rapidly become dull.

[AimeeM]

I could have written your post.

Autumn hated TWTM history. SOTW was a bust, as was the encycolopedias and CHOW (which I enjoy and will be keeping for Nico, later, lol).

We are now using Seton's 6th grade world history work text. I do require she write a summary after every chapter in her history notebook.

When we get to outlining, we will do that as well.

 

She also is struggling through WWE 3. Lol. I'm not sure yet what I'm doing with that.

I think we might drop it and pick up a more mainstream Winning With Writing.

[HeidiKC]

I wouldn't say my ds is a reluctant writer, but it sure isn't his favorite thing. Last year in 5th grade it was our first year homeschooling, and we used History Odyssey, level 2 Ancients. I was really surprised, but he LOVED it. It was his favorite subject, and when I said we weren't going to use HO this year he was really disappointed. So we're using it again.

 

It is somewhat similar to TWTM style because it does use Kingfisher Encyclopedia for outlining and summarizing...but the two main differences are:

1) HO doesn't go strictly chronologically, but chronologically by region of the world. So first you might cover all of ancient Egypt, then all of ancient Greece, etc. I actually like this better.

2) HO has a guide, and some hand-holding for the child. So in the beginning of Ancients, Level 2, it guides the child in doing the outline. It might give the main topics, and have child fill in details (telling him to list 3 details for each topic). And it mixes up the assignments a bit. I'd say most day child reads 2-page spread and outlines (at least in 5th grade, with MUCH help from the HO guide), then there might be 3-4 people listed that dc must write a short summary about. And I mean just a few sentences. It also tells him which events to add to his timeline. It includes blackline maps and every few lessons dc will have to fill out a map and color (which is fun and easy).

 

HO also has certain books that will be read throughout the year, and they are listed under certain lessons. Then I think there might be a writing assignment that goes along with those. There are a few worksheets (maybe 3-4?). So it mixes things up a bit and I think it's a great program and would be good for a reluctant writer since it does some hand-holding.

 

You can view a huge sample on their website (Pandia Press), and even download a lot of lessons to try (I'm thinking it's the first 17 or so).

[Catherine]

Did you buy both the student and teacher books? Are both needed? Generally, I find I need both, for most curricula.

 

In my fantasies, I'd design a cool, fun curriculum that he'd love. Here in the real world, I know I need some guidance, especially in the middle of the year like this.

[Catherine]

I've thought about ditching WWE too. I guess I've thought the memory practice is good for him. I used IEW for his brother and in the end, it was too boring and formulaic to inspire me, so I didn't teach it very well.

[EKS]

I would stop using WWE. I would get a copy of K12's Human Odyssey and use it as a spine. I would read it aloud to him and discuss it as you go. For writing assignments, I'd allow him to use a word processor (if he wants to) and at the beginning I'd have him write 50 words about the topic you're studying in history (as in "Tell me about the Mesopotamians"). Gradually increase the output expectations.

 

Then once he's doing well with these brief assignments, add a formal writing program back in.

[PeterPan]

A few things. One, it sounds like he likes *real* history, as in the stories and adventure part of history. If that's what he likes, then make sure that's what you get. HO is a rehash of WTM methods (read, write). That's great to do the TC courses! If you want another direction, look at the VP online self-paced history. Are you wanting secular? It's not secular. You could do NTGR along with his TC course and add in all the great books from the VP catalog, yum yum and easy to implement.

 

You said he doesn't like to write. That can be various things. At 10 1/2, *I* would want to know why, but that's just me. WWE really uses up their working memory. (Read about it.) When you start talking working memory and executive function issues, those could also cause the "hate writing" thing. There can also be physical causes like poor grip, low muscle tone, vision problems, etc. (Highly recommend a vision eval, good for everyone, and I prefer a developmental optometrist not a regular one, because the regular ones miss too much that affects school work.)

 

So anyways, that working memory and EF thing would be what I'd be pondering. I'm not wanting to be over-dramatic, but it seems like a lot of people whose kids at this age are struggling with WWE turn out to have those issues or find other things going on. Might as well find it now as later. The happy thing is, working memory is actually something you can IMPROVE. But if you don't realize *why* he's struggling with WWE, then you're making him hate writing as you attempt to help him. You separate out the problem and the necessary academics, so you can work on the problem in isolation or a more fun, efficient way, and not make him hate the academics.

[Catherine]

Oh, we know all about why he's having trouble. He's been tested and has very low working memory, very slow processing speed, high IQ. He's easily frustrated and I do understand why. WWE definitely challenges his working memory and that's one reason I've persisted with it, and I do think I see some agonizingly slow progress. What really does improve working memory? I play games with him, he's had VT and it helped tremendously.

 

Please tell me the name of the history program you are referring to. I do prefer secular, but would consider any curriculum that would work for him. I can adapt for any issue I feel strongly about.

[PeterPan]

Oh cool! So you did VT and found the working memory and processing issues. Well then it's not hard to understand why WTM history (and hence HO) aren't working. My dd, extremely similar, LOVES history. I haven't tried TC courses on her yet, but I have some saved for next year. Linguisystems sells a couple workbooks on executive function that several of us on the SN board are using. (You might head to the SN board, several people in your shoes over there...) It has a specific section on writing organization that I've been doing with my dd, and it seems to be making some things click. Our neuropsych had recommended software (I forget the name), but we liked the look of Scrivener. But just doing the techniques in the Linguisystems workbook is helping a lot. She's figuring out her own ways to apply it, because of course she's smart, like your ds. As far as the working memory, there are things in the Linguisystems workbook to help with that too as well as some separate stuff they sell. In our case I think the sensory stuff is tied up with it. They working on working memory in VT and hit some walls she couldn't get through. They told us to do OT and come back. We did OT for a while, dropped, and never went back to finish the VT. (It was the last month, working on processing, not so drastic.) Yllek has a lot of posts on ways her ds's SLP combines working memory and language, so we've been fiddling with things like that. You can do digit spans (the most obvious thing) while they work on another activity to suck up their processing (legoes, whatever). Michele (one l michele) is queen of the apps for iPad. I got my dd a Wii, because there's some evidence the fast pace of the games will help their processing speed.

 

Well we're just in process, like you. Have you tried any particular things to work on it? The history is VP, Veritas Press.

[HeidiKC]

Did you buy both the student and teacher books? Are both needed? Generally, I find I need both, for most curricula.

 

In my fantasies, I'd design a cool, fun curriculum that he'd love. Here in the real world, I know I need some guidance, especially in the middle of the year like this.

 

As far as I know, there is no teacher book for this. There aren't really "answers", since it is outlining and that sort of thing.

 

We also watched a ton of good documentaries, with reenactments. ...= BATTLES.

[Catherine]

What is NTGR?

[PeterPan]

NTGR = New Testament, Greece, and Rome. It's the 2nd year of the VP history. It's a great course, but it's not secular. Did I recommend it for you? Sorry.

[lewelma]

We do not use a curriculum, but rather the library. This is kind of like the WTM approach, but not really. Here is how we do it:

 

1) I research the era we will be studying, then pick a topic per month , and lay out the schedule for the upcoming year. (we are currently doing the middle ages this year and are studying the crusades this month)

2) I research novels in each of the topics that he will read during the month (I get these from Sonlight and History Odyssey), and buy what I need. I also research documentaries for the topics.

3) Once a month, we go to the library and pick out non-fiction books on the topic that he reads and that will be read alouds.

4) Over the month he reads the novels and non-fiction books and watches the documentaries for each topic.

5) Finally, TOGETHER, we spend 2 hours (over 2 days) every other week writing and processing his reading. I help him to pick facts, choose important dates for his time line, make flash cards, write up important people, and generally discuss the era.

 

This works well for my ds(11).

 

Ruth in NZ

[Amy in KS]

I love the self paced veritas press history courses. They're computer based, fast paced with lots of review. We've been doing them two years now and love them. There's currently a group buy going on right now that makes it much cheaper than usual (through the end of this month). Several people here are going in on groups. It isn't secular, though. You can see samples weeks from the various courses here. http://resource2.veritaspress.com/Resources/Scholars_Online/Scholars_Online_New_Self-Paced.html

 

It won't have the writing though. We do Pudewa's IEW writing (u.s. history based writing currently). It's very good and has really helped develop my daughter's writing.

 

If you're looking to develop memory skills, you might look at buying the Classical Conversations audio cds. It's a great time to do it as they are greatly discounted right now in preparation for a new edition.

[txhomemom]

Here are some of my suggestions for history that include writing in the curriculum:

 

-Oak Meadow - English and history are woven together and there are a lot of writing and projects, lots of creativity for the student to choose activities in each unit. I think 5th grade is US History and 6th Grade is Ancient Civilizations (goes up to the middle ages)

 

-Beautiful Feet - there are guides for each time period in history and they schedule a few books for you, but it is not overwhelming. It is kind of similar to History Odyssey. There are reading assignments, discussion questions, mapping, vocabulary words, writing assignments, and hands-on activities. It does not have a huge amount of depth, but they are definitely good for having a starting point.

 

-Learning Adventures - A World of Adventure, etc. (for 4th-8th grade) - A World of Adventure is a unit study that starts at Ancient Egypt and goes through the renaissance. It includes language arts (writing, spelling, grammar, vocabulary, literature), history, science, art, and bible (if you want something secular you can just leave this part out). This unit study would be a completely different way of completing history than the way you are doing now. It does not really focus on outlining and the WTM methods, it is more organic, might be good for a child that is opposed to outlining and is more of a creative writer.

 

-Easy Classical - these are history schedules that might help with including writing and memory work. It pretty much schedules everything for you including geography. I have not used these myself, but they look pretty good. The writing is not as interwoven into the curriculum as the others I mentioned, but it still might work for what you are looking for.

[AimeeM]

Oh Wise One,

You should research and find me a Catholic friendly/secular history program, super similar to your VP History :D.

As if you haven't enough to do.

 

Oh cool! So you did VT and found the working memory and processing issues. Well then it's not hard to understand why WTM history (and hence HO) aren't working. My dd, extremely similar, LOVES history. I haven't tried TC courses on her yet, but I have some saved for next year. Linguisystems sells a couple workbooks on executive function that several of us on the SN board are using. (You might head to the SN board, several people in your shoes over there...) It has a specific section on writing organization that I've been doing with my dd, and it seems to be making some things click. Our neuropsych had recommended software (I forget the name), but we liked the look of Scrivener. But just doing the techniques in the Linguisystems workbook is helping a lot. She's figuring out her own ways to apply it, because of course she's smart, like your ds. As far as the working memory, there are things in the Linguisystems workbook to help with that too as well as some separate stuff they sell. In our case I think the sensory stuff is tied up with it. They working on working memory in VT and hit some walls she couldn't get through. They told us to do OT and come back. We did OT for a while, dropped, and never went back to finish the VT. (It was the last month, working on processing, not so drastic.) Yllek has a lot of posts on ways her ds's SLP combines working memory and language, so we've been fiddling with things like that. You can do digit spans (the most obvious thing) while they work on another activity to suck up their processing (legoes, whatever). Michele (one l michele) is queen of the apps for iPad. I got my dd a Wii, because there's some evidence the fast pace of the games will help their processing speed.

 

Well we're just in process, like you. Have you tried any particular things to work on it? The history is VP, Veritas Press.

[Hedgehogs4]

My fifth grade ds is just hating the TWTM-style history we are attempting to do. I have him read the sections of the history encyclopedia, write facts, outline, do research. Etc. He just is not interested in the topics, hates writing, etc.

 

He is a very reluctant writer. That is certainly part of our problem. But given that, and the fact that he's only 10 1\2, is struggling through WWE 3 this year, I think he's just too young for this and I'm planning a mid-year switch of gears. So far, what I've planned is to have him listen to The Teaching Company's Famous Greeks (he loves it) and Famous Romans, several documentaries are in my Netflix list, I have several books plus TWTM's ancients reading list, which he's doing OK with.

 

Can anyone recommend a history curriculum that I can use as a guide? Something that does include writing, as he very much needs the practice. OR should I push him to write using WWE?

 

I did not read the rest of the responses, but this year we started Tapestry of Grace, and my son (also 5th grade) is thriving. I had him in the Upper Grammar materials and he loved it so much he asked for more. He is now reading both the UG materials and the Dialectic material. I have never seen him read so much or enjoy his studies more. I am in shock at the amount we have covered this semester alone. I would venture to say it is as much as we have ever covered in a whole year up to this point.

[hsmom2011]

n/m

[TheAutumnOak]

I did not read the rest of the responses, but this year we started Tapestry of Grace, and my son (also 5th grade) is thriving. I had him in the Upper Grammar materials and he loved it so much he asked for more. He is now reading both the UG materials and the Dialectic material. I have never seen him read so much or enjoy his studies more. I am in shock at the amount we have covered this semester alone. I would venture to say it is as much as we have ever covered in a whole year up to this point.

 

I was going to suggest Tapestry of Grace as well...My son was such a relunctant reader and writer, but I see so much improvement in him since we started TOG...He loves it and reads all of the Upper Grammar material...He will move on to Dialectic next year and he is actually excited about it :)...I told him I was thinking of changing a few things next year and he said to me, "Please don't change Tapestry of Grace...I love those books!"...That was enough for me to figure out a way to continue using it...It can be very expensive though, that is the only downside...I am looking forward to doing more once we venture into the Dialectic discussions :D

[Colleen in NS]

My fifth grade ds is just hating the TWTM-style history we are attempting to do. I have him read the sections of the history encyclopedia, write facts, outline, do research. Etc. He just is not interested in the topics, hates writing, etc.

 

He is a very reluctant writer. That is certainly part of our problem. But given that, and the fact that he's only 10 1\2, is struggling through WWE 3 this year, I think he's just too young for this and I'm planning a mid-year switch of gears.

 

... should I push him to write using WWE?

 

WWE definitely challenges his working memory and that's one reason I've persisted with it, and I do think I see some agonizingly slow progress.

 

How about this:

 

- Keep the history encyclopedia on hand, for YOU to look use. You go on your library website every couple of weeks and reserve many books on topics/events/people that you find in whatever section you will be working on for the next few weeks. Bring those books home.

 

- Forget about writing a "list of facts" for history for now - this is new to the latest WTM edition, and I think it's for notetaking practice. I can tell you that, if you continue with WWE and then on to WWS, your son will get notetaking practice.

 

- Forget about outlining history books until he gets his writing skills shored up with WWE.

 

- Research - let him read from those library books you checked out. Then, you have two options: if you are using the WWE workbooks, once a week you could have him practice his WWE narration skills on his history reading. Call this session "history summary" instead of "WWE time" if that's an issue. If you are using the WWE Instructor book, fold his history reading into his daily WWE assignments.

 

- Timeline - have him pick out a few things that he thinks are important (and have him tell you why he thinks that), and have him put them on a timeline.

 

- Discuss. Discuss his reading, his narration, his timeline choices.

 

Voila. Custom made history program for him. :D You can always add back in "list of facts" and encyclopedia reading later if you want. But I think the "meat" of the middle grade WTM idea is the reading/writing/timelining/discussing. And the writing skills being *used* in content-area study. It's going to be useful later on. And letting him choose among the various library books you bring home will make history more interesting, I would hope. That's how it has worked out here, anyway.

 

hth

[prairiewindmomma]

I just wanted to encourage you to stick with WWE. My ds REALLY hated WWE, but he has been able to make huge leaps in improving his working memory by using the program....

 

I'm with Colleen on this one. We tried TOG for a time with my oldest ds and it was awful. Bad. Ugly. Horrible. Terrible. I would recommend TOG only as a suggested list of books for him to read on the side, and only*if* he really enjoys reading.

 

My ds loves to read, and has an extensive vocabulary, but does not write easily or well.

 

Narration is going to help him pick out the most important facts from the material. It will also help him organize the material in his brain. Both of these skills are key to writing.

 

Timeline work is going to help as you review material. It will also help him sequence events.

 

Discussion is key. I often write down ds's narrations for him about half of the time. The other half of the time, I have him outline.