PIE! Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm curious. If you are against magic related books such as Harry Potter for religious reasons, what do you think of Narnia? How about Lord of the Rings? I'd like to know your point of view. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AimeeM Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 This is a good question and I'm curious as well. I know several fellow Catholic families who do not allow HP, but do read books like Narnia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanna Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 We have avoided the whole HP franchise because it seems it glamorizes wizardry/witchcraft. However, we have allowed Narnia and Lord of the Rings because it does not seem like w/w is the focus of these stories. *(Note to would be "bashers" -- don't even "go there." I'm only sharing my opinion as asked by the OP. TIA!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIE! Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 We have avoided the whole HP franchise because it seems it glamorizes wizardry/witchcraft. However, we have allowed Narnia and Lord of the Rings because it does not seem like w/w is the focus of these stories. *(Note to would be "bashers" -- don't even "go there." I'm only sharing my opinion as asked by the OP. TIA!) Thanks for your opinion! And I agree - please no bashing. I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just curious about a point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanna Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks for your opinion! And I agree - please no bashing. I'm not looking for a debate. I'm just curious about a point of view. You're welcome, g.beth! And thank YOU! ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 From what I have read, reading the Narnia books are encouraged because the books are written as a Christian allegory. The LoTR books are allowed to be read because: 1. the story takes place in a make-believe world, and 2. the author was Christian. The HP books are not encouraged because the story takes place in our world. FTR, this is what I have read about some homeschoolers POV; this is not what I feel about these books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdreeves Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 When our kids were young (at the beginning of the HP craze) we stayed away from them because we didn't think they were must reads due to subject content, and literary reviews, that said the writing style and word choice was mediocre. There were plenty of stellar books on the WTM reading list, and we opted to stay with those. This summer, I read a couple, as did my now college freshman and HS junior. The first few were fun and light reads, but I don't think they can compare to Narnia or LOTR for quality of writing. No, I'm not keen on wizards as the main story, which is a big reason why we waited until our kids had a solid foundation before reading them...we could have read them at the beginning of HS, but the girls had more interesting titles on their fund read lists by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acurtis75 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I don't really have a song opinion on the matter yet but I have read that in Narnia and Lord of th Rings there is a more clear distinction between good vs evil and right and wrong. i've also read that they are more clearly fairy tale type settings whereas Harry Potter leans more heavily on witchcraft and is set in. More realistic environment. I intend to read hp before I let dd but not until she's older. I know a the later books ad darker and wouldn't want her to get in to the series and them have to wait to finish. I read a quote somewhere that really speaks to this issue for me and I can't remember where I read it. Something along the lines of ideas in books being mesmerizing for people when they are the only ideas that person is ever exposed to. In other words teenagers want to be vampires because the only book they've ever read is about vampires. They would be less influenced if they had been exposed to many ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 1. The author's use of words...HP is no literary work...poor sentence structure, easy fluff read. I highly support well written books to elevate my own children's writing. 2. When it first came out, it captured the attention based on popular reviews...I ventured then that given time and to prolong the fascination and thus the dividends it would go dark...sensationalism sells, it is much harder to write a book whose main focus is to inspire/encourage than just to appeal to shock value. Chronicles of Narnia very effectively uses morals and consequences well and Lewis was an excellent writer as was Tolkien... 3. I am very selective with what my children read...whatever is lovely, kind, pure, noble etc think on such things..HP may have some of those but also pushes the limit...too many good to great books out there that do not...another reason Twilight is not on my top ten list. I find schools promoting HP bc they say it is the only thing they can get their students to read...with all the outstanding books out there they think that is a good reason to promote it? I am not against or think less of those who read it, but if they have read 20 books and 7 of them were HP, I smh...amazing books that provide outstanding examples of courage and integrity without going sensational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 We have avoided the whole HP franchise because it seems it glamorizes wizardry/witchcraft. However, we have allowed Narnia and Lord of the Rings because it does not seem like w/w is the focus of these stories. *(Note to would be "bashers" -- don't even "go there." I'm only sharing my opinion as asked by the OP. TIA!) We did the same when our kids were young, but now that they are older (17 & 21), we read HP together. It made for some GREAT discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I love Harry Potter books and we read them, but the other Christians that I know don't read them. From what I can gather, they don't like the idea that the good guys are witches and wizards. In Narina, the witch is bad. In HP, the witches can be good or bad. They don't like the idea of a "witch" being good. They feel that it takes something that's supposed to be evil (a witch) and tries to make it something good. I wonder if the characters were called something besides "witch," like "magic-wielder" or something, if they'd be ok with it. Because the witches in HP aren't traditional witches who are getting power from the devil. They're just normal people who are able to access and use magic. Each person can decide whether to use the magic for good or evil (like using a gun for defense or offense.) And I think they also don't like it that the magic happens in our world. I think that "magic" has a connotation to them of being evil. Using a force that isn't from God. So, it's one thing for this force to be in another entirely make-believe world, but for it to be in our world isn't good. True story: When I was asking one of these friends why she's against it, she said that her brother-in-law insists that he can turn himself into a cat, like in the HP books. I grilled her and grilled her and told her that that was strangest thing I'd ever heard, and she said that he completely believes that he can do this. She said that normally she might not care so much about HP stuff, but after her BIL told her that he turns into a cat, like in HP, she was nervous about letting her kids read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I find schools promoting HP bc they say it is the only thing they can get their students to read...with all the outstanding books out there they think that is a good reason to promote it? I am not against or think less of those who read it, but if they have read 20 books and 7 of them were HP, I smh...amazing books that provide outstanding examples of courage and integrity without going sensational. This part I would disagree -- I think that if a school can get them started on longer books via HP, they can then aim them towards LOTR/etc, whereas going directly to more difficult books with limited-reading students may be impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm not against it because of witchcraft. I read all the books myself to see what the big deal was. I was against it when the kids were smaller because of the snotty attitudes towards adults that I saw in the books. I also thought they were "eh - not so well written". I let ds14 read them when he was around 11. He got about 25 pages in and put it down because he thought the writing was poor. He devours fantasy normally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NittanyJen Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Very curiously watching this thread. As a Christian, I find nothing in the books threatening to our faith, nor anything inherently evil about the type of witchcraft practiced in HP. There is no mention of worshipping anything evil (just as real Wiccans do not worship the devil, either; nor do they turn into cats ;) ). Only one of mine (DS11) is old enough to have begun reading them on his own, and I don't withhold books from him based on some literary metric. Fortunately, his reading level and speed are high enough that he has plenty of time for both good literature and purely fun stuff, and we discuss both. I grew up as the daughter of a high school literature teacher, and in our house we read everything from Shakespeare to fluff, and enjoyed it all :). We just expected-- and received-- different things from different types of reading materials. I am curious... For the people who withhold HP books because they do not meet some literary standard... Is that proscription peculiar to HP, or do you bar your children from reading anything just purely for fun, even if it isn't model writing? If so, is this because you have very limited reading time available? No judgement; just curiosity. There are a limited number of hours in a week for all of us. I read about some kids assembling airplane engines and caring for farm animals and all kinds of amazing things that we don't do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 We read lots of fluff. For example, ds likes Rick Riordan, who arguably is probably even fluffier than Rowling. But I like the child/adult relationships in Riordan's books better (though some like Dionysus aren't exactly the best role model!) Maybe it's better to say that I like the parent/child relationships better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 This summer, I read a couple, as did my now college freshman and HS junior. The first few were fun and light reads, but I don't think they can compare to Narnia or LOTR for quality of writing. :iagree:My beef with HP is plain old snobbery. At least that's what others have called it. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi mum Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm not against it because of witchcraft. I read all the books myself to see what the big deal was. I was against it when the kids were smaller because of the snotty attitudes towards adults that I saw in the books. I also thought they were "eh - not so well written". I let ds14 read them when he was around 11. He got about 25 pages in and put it down because he thought the writing was poor. He devours fantasy normally. We had the same experience at our house. After reading Tolkein, HP was of no interest at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I've never read Harry Potter, but I found Narnia to be incredible banal. What a disappointment! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribbean Queen Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 True story: When I was asking one of these friends why she's against it, she said that her brother-in-law insists that he can turn himself into a cat, like in the HP books. It all comes down to how close to real you believe HP is. If you teach your children that witches are make believe charaters, then HP is harmless fun. If you believe, as many (most?) people in the Caribbean do, that women witches cats spells to hurt people and turn into birds and fly at night, then HP is the worst children's book ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIE! Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 Thanks for all the replies! I enjoy learning others' points of view. My kids haven't read Harry Potter yet. They just aren't big readers yet. But - when the reading bug bites, I've got no problem with it. I do agree that its literary merits are not the highest. DD does have a few friends though who won't read books about magic for biblical reasons. For instance, her friend told her she wouldn't read Mary Poppins because Mary is like a witch. Since Narnia is a Christian fantasy, and some people classify LOTR as such too, (and yes, the good guys in both use magic) I was wondering if they were still acceptable to the no-magic Christian crowd. So it seems that setting has a lot to do with it - real world vs. a different world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What has always been interesting to me is that C.S. Lewis denied writing The Chronicles as Christian allegory. Obviously, people interpret it as such, but the author himself does not claim that. The HP tales do have their own thread of sacrificial love and redemption, but some Christians are determined not to see it and will not read the books themselves so as to make their own judgment. Also, maybe I just have simpler requirements of my literature, but I think the HP tales are well-written. Not of as high a quality as The Chronicles, but very good in my experience. Not every kid can sit down and read The Swiss Family Robinson. HP can engage young children and help them step up to stories with complex plot lines and an extensive character cast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What has always been interesting to me is that C.S. Lewis denied writing The Chronicles as Christian allegory. Obviously, people interpret it as such, but the author himself does not claim that. Well, I wouldn't call it allegory. But sure, Lewis wrote a story in which Jesus became a lion and created a world and sacrificed his life for it, and Narnia stories are (partly) about the Christian life. Lewis was fairly upfront about that, though I think he didn't like to talk about it because he wanted children to figure it out for themselves. But you have to remember that to Lewis (a professor of literature, esp. medieval lit), the word allegory means something very specific that looks like The Romance of the Rose or Pilgrim's Progress, where each character has a one-to-one correspondence with a particular idea or symbol. Lewis did write a book like that early on, called The Pilgrim's Regress. The Narnia books have a lot of atmosphere and some symbolism (see Planet Narnia for some excellent analysis)--but they're not allegory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 What has always been interesting to me is that C.S. Lewis denied writing The Chronicles as Christian allegory. Obviously, people interpret it as such, but the author himself does not claim that. The HP tales do have their own thread of sacrificial love and redemption, but some Christians are determined not to see it and will not read the books themselves so as to make their own judgment. Also, maybe I just have simpler requirements of my literature, but I think the HP tales are well-written. Not of as high a quality as The Chronicles, but very good in my experience. Not every kid can sit down and read The Swiss Family Robinson. HP can engage young children and help them step up to stories with complex plot lines and an extensive character cast. I'm one of the people who said that I thought they were poor written. But I didn't ban them because of that. Ds, once he was 11 and I did allow him to read them, "banned" them himself because of the literature quality. How many times do we find that a book (even a classic) speaks to one person and not at all to others. As Spycar pointed out in an earlier thread, he found that the Narnian Chronicles didn't appeal to him and yet obviously they appeal to a lot of people. (All to say that I wouldn't get too defensive about people not agreeing with your perception of the books. After all, many people don't like Moby Dick and it is one of my favorite books!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 As a librarian, I must admit that I'm grateful to HP for making it possible for children to read long books. Before HP came along, it was considered just about impossible to publish a long book for children--"no kid would read something longer than 250 pages, so don't even try" was the attitude. Once HP became popular, long books were normalized. Now we have the opposite problem--piles and piles of overly-long and padded-out books--but at least long children's books are considered to be OK. The HP craze also brought many neglected (and better) fantasy authors back into prominence and print--Diane Duane, Diana Wynne Jones, and others were brought back as kids demanded more fantasy and publishers scrambled to fill demand. Of course we also got plenty of dreck! But at least I got to point lots of kids towards DWJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 As a librarian, I must admit that I'm grateful to HP for making it possible for children to read long books. Before HP came along, it was considered just about impossible to publish a long book for children--"no kid would read something longer than 250 pages, so don't even try" was the attitude. Once HP became popular, long books were normalized. Now we have the opposite problem--piles and piles of overly-long and padded-out books--but at least long children's books are considered to be OK. The HP craze also brought many neglected (and better) fantasy authors back into prominence and print--Diane Duane, Diana Wynne Jones, and others were brought back as kids demanded more fantasy and publishers scrambled to fill demand. Of course we also got plenty of dreck! But at least I got to point lots of kids towards DWJ. I do not know the works of Diana Wynne Jones (although I realize we've seen Mayizaki's animated film adaptation of Howl's Moving Castle). Is there one (or more) that you particularly recommend? Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Well, I wouldn't call it allegory. But sure, Lewis wrote a story in which Jesus became a lion and created a world and sacrificed his life for it, and Narnia stories are (partly) about the Christian life. Lewis was fairly upfront about that, though I think he didn't like to talk about it because he wanted children to figure it out for themselves. But you have to remember that to Lewis (a professor of literature, esp. medieval lit), the word allegory means something very specific that looks like The Romance of the Rose or Pilgrim's Progress, where each character has a one-to-one correspondence with a particular idea or symbol. Lewis did write a book like that early on, called The Pilgrim's Regress. The Narnia books have a lot of atmosphere and some symbolism (see Planet Narnia for some excellent analysis)--but they're not allegory. :iagree: This is my understanding, too, as CS Lewis said he really disliked allegory, and was using a very specific definition as a prof of classics. Narnia is clearly filled with Christian symbolism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeslieAnneLevine Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I always wondered about the HP characters and Christianity and how much thought Rowling may have given it, even if she doesn't go into it in the books. HP and Co. celebrate Christmas and Easter. I think Sirius once sang something like "God rest ye merry hippogriffs". God and Jesus must figure in somewhere in the wizarding world. Do they believe Jesus was a wizard? eta: I only bring this up because someone said something about the wizards having power not given by God. How do we know it wasn't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 One thing that affected our decision was the tendency of HP fans to go all out as far as wanting to "enact" the story (kids practicing spells, etc.) in the real world. I read the first book, and it did bother me a bit that the entire focus was on the witchcraft/wizardry angle, as well as it taking place "in our world". I still was iffy on it. Then DH observed that whatever the reason, there was something about it that seemed to encourage playing around with that behavior in real life. (Which is definitely not ok with our belief system.) For those reasons we decided against it. If DD decides to read it when she is older, I'm certainly not going to freak out about it. I just didn't think it was the best choice for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mimmy Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 The old and new testaments forbid witchcraft. Galatians 5:20 is one reference. I don't know the old testament references but I believe one of them includes forbidding the children of Israel to have anything to do with witchcraft. Some probably think that includes reading about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I do not know the works of Diana Wynne Jones (although I realize we've seen Mayizaki's animated film adaptation of Howl's Moving Castle). Is there one (or more) that you particularly recommend? Bill Ooh! Another recruit! :001_smile: Well, Howl's Moving Castle is a good first selection, though Miyazaki played around with it quite a bit, so don't expect it to be the same. HWC has two sequels and neither of them look very much like it at first. The Chrestomanci novels are another good beginner's point--you start with Charmed Life and read the rest as you find them. My personal favorites are Archer's Goon and Fire and Hemlock, or all of them really. But save those two for a little further on. Let me know what you think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NicAnn Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 For us, we make the family decision to not allow Harry Potter. It is partly due to what another poster said, many adults and children dress like the characters and practice casting (albeit fake) spells. It also glorifies and promotes witchcraft. Now there are many families whom I'm sure don't allow Narnia. We do because we feel it's different. I'm sure there are others who would not agree with our decision (even in my own congregation). My family's beliefs come from Deuteronomy 18:9-13 (and about 10 other scriptures...that I don't want to look up at the moment. :) We truly believe that spiritism, the occult, and magic are things that God abhors. So we avoid it as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Ooh! Another recruit! :001_smile: Well, Howl's Moving Castle is a good first selection, though Miyazaki played around with it quite a bit, so don't expect it to be the same. HWC has two sequels and neither of them look very much like it at first. The Chrestomanci novels are another good beginner's point--you start with Charmed Life and read the rest as you find them. My personal favorites are Archer's Goon and Fire and Hemlock, or all of them really. But save those two for a little further on. Let me know what you think! I'm used to Hollywood (even in Japan) messing with good books, so no problem. I will check her out. Thanks! Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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