Roadrunner Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I had a very interesting conversation with my friend's kiddos yesterday. Apparently 50% of the middle school kids (the same school my kids are suppose to attend) have straight As, maybe even a higher percentage of kids. How is that possible? :confused: We usually had 1 or 2 kids out of 35 managing to get straight As growing up and it was haaaard work. 50% of the school??? I am speechless. My friend thinks that parents here are very involved and that's why kids do so well. I don't care how involved parents are. If 50% of those kids are getting As, the standards just aren't there. After that conversation, my husband finally said he would seriously consider letting me homeschool kids from grade 5 until high school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetPea Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 My friend has a daughter at a middle school where any test can be retaken. So, there are lots of A's. The test with the lower score goes home; memorized; retaken :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I had a very interesting conversation with my friend's kiddos yesterday. Apparently 50% of the middle school kids (the same school my kids are suppose to attend) have straight As, maybe even a higher percentage of kids. How is that possible? :confused: We usually had 1 or 2 kids out of 35 managing to get straight As growing up and it was haaaard work. 50% of the school??? I am speechless. My friend thinks that parents here are very involved and that's why kids do so well. I don't care how involved parents are. If 50% of those kids are getting As, the standards just aren't there. After that conversation, my husband finally said he would seriously consider letting me homeschool kids from grade 5 until high school. Do you live near Lake Wobegone? ;) You should ask the parents how that works, especially if your kids might attend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Do you live near Lake Wobegone? ;) You should ask the parents how that works, especially if your kids might attend. Maybe I do :lol:. I am going to investigate. I know enough people with kids there. See, it would have never occured to me that you can have such a gifted population all in one spot :001_smile:. It also would have never occured to me that any teacher would routinely let kids retake tests. I am going to check on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aly9712 Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I will say that probably 80% percent of the students at my school score honor roll and we have about 70% of the population in advanced classes. I live in a wealthy & highly competitive zone. Although the school is not a magnet or charter, it is the top scoring public middle school for the county. Parents & students value rigorous education and if a student starts to struggle, parents are quick to seek outside tutoring services, and teachers are expected to remediate/reteach until the student is successful. There are many kids in the school who maybe would not be honor roll candidates if they didn't have great work ethics and supportive and clearly "afterschooling" parents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 The biggest contributor to high scores is a parent who will revise essays and research papers, followed by one who knows to engage a tutor or get the test & classwork file from someone who took the course last year. All districts vary on this of course; some actually don't repeat the material from year to year now that test banks are available. Oy. Parents who rescue their children by revising essays and research papers are doing their children a grave disservice. It sends the message that they are a) not accountable and b) incapable. I've known a few parents who've done this, and their kids rarely do well on assignments or tests that parents can't do for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 Oy. Parents who rescue their children by revising essays and research papers are doing their children a grave disservice. It sends the message that they are a) not accountable and b) incapable. I've known a few parents who've done this, and their kids rarely do well on assignments or tests that parents can't do for them. This is why I think grades should be solely based on tests and exams taken at school (preferably in an essay format). Basically the way it stands, there is no way of knowing how well your kid is doing. Even in a wealthy area with super competitive parents you shouldn't have 70% of students with straight As (unless you went around and collected the top 5% of kids across many schools in a large geographic area). That statistic in inself implies no standards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowbeltmom Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Grades appear to be inflated at our local high school. Thirty percent of the students have a 4+ g.p.a. while close to 85% of the students are on the honor role. Our average ACT score is an underwhelming 23. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted January 8, 2012 Author Share Posted January 8, 2012 They want to 'win' the gpa contest, so this is part of what it takes to 'win' and keep the seat in the honors program. Only if everybody has an A, there is no more "winning" and if most are in the honors program, the program by definition is no longer "honors." So congratulations parents, you "won". :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabyBre Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Maybe I do :lol:.I am going to investigate. I know enough people with kids there. See, it would have never occured to me that you can have such a gifted population all in one spot :001_smile:. It also would have never occured to me that any teacher would routinely let kids retake tests. I am going to check on that. Prepare yourself. You may turn up a lot of things that never occurred to you before. Countless or several test retakes are the least of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) In the parallel universe where I grew up, the equivalent of 4.0 GPAs were not. happening. It was extremely hard - nay, close to impossible - to get the highest possible grade in any subject per se, let alone in all subjects. There were even years and subjects in which nobody had the highest grade. An exam was an EXAM - it started out by assuming you do not know anything, and you were to prove the opposite, not the other way round as it is today (assuming that children do know but "struggle with the format", or if they do not know that it is not they who are to blame, etc.). We could retake the exams, but guess what - retaking not only meant your previous grade was not "saved" (i.e. by deciding to up your B to an A you entered a gamble, because there was also a possibility of lowering your grade), it also meant that the professor might be annoyed with you (especially if he thought the retaking was the result of you questioning his professionalism and competence, rather than being "only" dissatisfied with your own work), and there was no way on Earth you would get the same questions, not even one. I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind who would ever give you the same questions - duh, the whole point of retaking is that you show you know the content, not that you memorized the previous exam. When I heard of retaking the pretty much same test, I thought the parents were kidding. They not only were not kidding, but tacitly condoned the system rather than demanding intellectual honesty for and by their kids. At our place, you could complain about your grade at any point. No problem at all. The solution was a commission exam - a whole commission grading you first in the written exam, then on the oral follow-up of an exam. And of course, in any doubt, the commission would back up the professor, not the candidate. So sure, go and play the brave one - but only if you can back it up. Like with exams retaken, there were cases of the commission lowering the grade rather than upping it. It is highly unrealistic to have such a big percentage of "outstanding" students because then "outstanding" loses its meaning. If something is standard, then nobody stands out - so the criteria need to be adjusted. As far as the grading principles are concerned: an AVERAGE child with an AVERAGE effort is to get an AVERAGE grade, i.e. a C. THAT is the real, academically acceptable rule of the thumb. Not a default A for "good work", but a default C for that. Bs are exceptional grades - for more than average effort and/or for an intellectually above-average child - and As are about going above and beyond the actual course requirements. Ds are about satisfying the minimal norm, with the minimal norm still meaning 60%+ on every segment of the material (every unit specifically, every task specifically, etc.) - i.e. knowing enough of everything to be considered qualified to pass. Even if theoretically one were to have As on most segments, but fail one segment, one FAILS, as simple as that. Every part of the course and every requirement must ultimately be sufficiently met for a sufficient grade. What on Earth are we thinking by cheating our children, cheating ourselves, and creating an enormous long-term disservice to them, to us, and to the whole society, under the pretext of "let us not make Johnny feel bad"? The current grade inflation CANNOT be justified in ANY way. If "everyone" can reach the level of an A, it pretty much proves how horribly lowered the standards are to begin with. An A should not be the default grade for "work well done", but something reserved for exceptional work. I dislike Gauss and grading on the curve because I find it unfair and problematic due to some other things, but really, as a general orientir, it can work. If the majority of your grades are not average grades - Cs - with the one extreme being a D/F one and the other extreme being a B/A one, something IS likely to be wrong. In a class of 30 students, the realistic distribution would be more along the lines of 3 failed, 3 have As, 5-6 got Ds and 5-6 got Bs, and the rest, which is nearly half a class, are average grades for average kids of average effort, i.e. just plain Cs. When you have 15 As, 10 Bs and 5 "others", something is very, very wrong with your criteria OR you are stuck with an incredibly academically strong class, sort of a once-in-a-career thing. NOT a regular situation. NOT by any means. Off my soapbox now. :lol: Edited January 8, 2012 by Ester Maria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirsten in MO Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Ester Maria, I always read your posts with great interest. I am curious where you grew up and went to school (if that is not too nosy of me :001_smile:)I went to a rural high school in eastern Texas...not very rigourous to be sure. ~Kirsten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Off my soapbox now. :lol: Is that a promise? :D Ester Maria, which schools specifically are you addressing here in the States? None of my kids ever had retake tests. All U.S. schools don't do this. It seems I have to reassure you every now and then. LOL. Anyhoo, my husband was a college professor at a fairly well-known university for a number of years. He did not grade on the curve and told his students that if they all did well on their assignments and tests, they would all earn A's. Some years he had quite a few students who did well, while other years, he didn't. It was always fair, though Btw, do you homeschool your own, or do they go to Italian schools or elsewhere? Just curious. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootsie Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I live in a highly rated school district. Over 75% of those graduating from high school have an "A" average. The top 10% all have above a "100" average. I know kids in middle school with a "130" average in math. This is because they have accumulated extra credit for things such as donating white board markers to the teacher, donating a coat to the clothing drive, not using their bathroom passes, and counting how many times "jingle" is in the song Jingle Bells. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 Anyhoo, my husband was a college professor at a fairly well-known university for a number of years. He did not grade on the curve and told his students that if they all did well on their assignments and tests, they would all earn A's. Some years he had quite a few students who did well, while other years, he didn't. It was always fair, though That is how it should be, IMO. :) Gauss / grading on the curve is problematic because you end up with wildly different classes, so the standard for a grade in one class or one year is not the same as next year, and overall, I have never liked grading which was "relative" (based on how one compares to others in a class) - I prefer grading which is more "absolute" (based on how well one mastered a specific content - which allows for ALL combinations, from NOBODY passing to EVERYONE getting an A, even though I would argue that if one is consistently within either extreme something is "off"). Btw, do you homeschool your own, or do they go to Italian schools or elsewhere? Just curious. :) Well, now they are big kids, capable of making some big decisions regarding their schooling arrangements, so we are in a "transition phase" of a kind right now, with all the options still open for a little while until they commit to one, and personally, manus lavo. If you are interested in the details we can take it to PM, I would not elaborate here. Ontopic, I am glad to hear that the situation at your local school regarding grade inflation and testing is good. I have no doubt that there are excellent schools out there, but I do observe what I perceive as a general decrease in standards - not only in the American school system, although perhaps the most "palpably" there, but in 'Western' school systems on the whole. I am still not sure whether it is me being crazy and simply another link in the chain of the generational "when I was young, the world was perfect, the schools were good and now we are going straight to hell" type of complaints, or there really is a massive scale change in how education is being approached and what elements of it are being prioritized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleopatra Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 ...... What on Earth are we thinking by cheating our children, cheating ourselves, and creating an enormous long-term disservice to them, to us, and to the whole society, under the pretext of "let us not make Johnny feel bad"? The current grade inflation CANNOT be justified in ANY way. If "everyone" can reach the level of an A, it pretty much proves how horribly lowered the standards are to begin with. An A should not be the default grade for "work well done", but something reserved for exceptional work. I dislike Gauss and grading on the curve because I find it unfair and problematic due to some other things, but really, as a general orientir, it can work. If the majority of your grades are not average grades - Cs - with the one extreme being a D/F one and the other extreme being a B/A one, something IS likely to be wrong. In a class of 30 students, the realistic distribution would be more along the lines of 3 failed, 3 have As, 5-6 got Ds and 5-6 got Bs, and the rest, which is nearly half a class, are average grades for average kids of average effort, i.e. just plain Cs. When you have 15 As, 10 Bs and 5 "others", something is very, very wrong with your criteria OR you are stuck with an incredibly academically strong class, sort of a once-in-a-career thing. NOT a regular situation. NOT by any means. Off my soapbox now. :lol: Your post reminded me of my American friends who live in France ....... When their kids went to school there, they were always graded out of 20. Their oldest son was always at 17/20. One day my friend happened to speak with one of his teachers and he told her that her son was one of the best students that he had ever had the pleasure of teaching. She was so confused and asked the teacher why, for pities sake, was her son only getting 17/20?!! The teacher looked very reprovingly at her and said, "Madame ....... 18 is for a genius, 19 is for the professor, and 20 is for God." :lol: This story always makes me laugh! A very different perception than in North America ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 The teacher looked very reprovingly at her and said, "Madame ....... 18 is for a genius, 19 is for the professor, and 20 is for God." :lol: This story always makes me laugh! A very different perception than in North America ...... Exactly! That is what I am talking about! :lol: There was a remarkably similar joke when I was a student, LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted January 9, 2012 Author Share Posted January 9, 2012 In the USSR having straight As was such a big deal that those kids were granted the permission to only take one (versus a customary 4 or 5) university admissions exams. In my school you had maybe one kid every 4 years who managed to pull it off (provided we didn't have gifted schools or honors classes with an exception of separate mathematics and music schools, that kid graduating with straight As was most likely a gifted child with superior work ethic). Nobody in my graduating class managed it. I still remember sobbing after my chemistry exam. I have a close friend whose child graduated from an outstanding college prep school and I must tell you, the education he got was superb. I dream that one day I will manage to send my kids there. Now back to the local middle school. I see two possibilities. One, there is a possibility of grade inflation. A much more horrifying thought is that the course of study is so easy that 50% of kids (I do live in a privileged district) really manage to score As. In reality it's probably the combination of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 You'll have to ask what the grading system is. One of mine went thru middle in the honors/accel program, one went in Regents. Honors/accel has curved grading, reworking of labs which increases your score by half of what you missed the first time, significant extra credit opportunities and the opportunity to drop a low test grade. Regents has none of that. Both had 1/3 of the grade being behavior, one third tests/quizzes and one third classwork however only one grade is recorded in each category each week, which usually means some of the classwork is ungraded. I'm originally from NY, and still have friends and family who live there. Some are teachers, one is a principal, and others have children in schools there. I have not seen this kind of differentiation in extra points between Regents and Honors classes. I've seen extreme extra credit in every level of class. Honors classes added an extra 6(?) points to your grade out of 100 posted on your report card. Regents classes didn't add any points, but you could get as close to 100 as you wanted with extra credit. It's still ridiculous, but not just ridiculous in favor of students in Honors classes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Interesting discussion. I have a kid in private middle school and the grading is really tough. There are a lot of kids there (it starts at grade 6) that sailed through elementary that are having a rough time adjusting to not being top of the class. My son had a rough time with it last year, especially since most of his friends were still kids in neighborhood schools who had almost no homework. His school has a philosophy I really like: -- middle school is a great time to fail since no one cares about your middle school grades in the college process or otherwise -- parents should almost completely back out of homework etc., even making sure it is done. The school and teachers blind copy parents on emails to students, and do let parents know if kids aren't turning in homework, but they want the kids to feel it is 100 percent on them to do the work, and really between them and the teachers if they have questions, need to make something up etc. My son had a bad time last year where he was making a lot of mistakes. We talked about it a lot and there were a lot of good parental discussions, etc but we didn't rescue him. -- placement in classes and progression to the next class is based on mastery not age. A grade of 3 which is mastery is perfectly acceptable even though 5 is the highest grade. If you score lower than a 3 you have to retake the class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 His school has a philosophy I really like:-- middle school is a great time to fail since no one cares about your middle school grades in the college process or otherwise -- parents should almost completely back out of homework etc., even making sure it is done. The school and teachers blind copy parents on emails to students, and do let parents know if kids aren't turning in homework, but they want the kids to feel it is 100 percent on them to do the work, and really between them and the teachers if they have questions, need to make something up etc. My son had a bad time last year where he was making a lot of mistakes. We talked about it a lot and there were a lot of good parental discussions, etc but we didn't rescue him. -- placement in classes and progression to the next class is based on mastery not age. A grade of 3 which is mastery is perfectly acceptable even though 5 is the highest grade. If you score lower than a 3 you have to retake the class. I really like this philosophy and approach. Sounds like your son is in an awesome school! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.