Miquon - exposure vs. mastery?

[MeganW]

Every single new page in Miquon is a challenge for one of my kids. This is my "pleaser", so she is really trying, but she just is not a mathy kid.

 

Generally, our pattern is for me to give a short explanation, she tries & fails miserably, I actually teach in detail, I make up 14 more worksheets similarly to the one she couldn't do at first, she finally gets it, and we move on. I sort of feel like I am teaching her the procedure to get through that page, so I'm not sure it's really doing what is intended. Would I be better off just letting her try, giving her a few hints, and moving on instead of really teaching it thoroughly until she gets it? (So using Miquon just for exposure, assuming that RightStart will cover all this more explicitly later?)

 

I don't want to leave Miquon. The other 3 kids love it and totally get it.

 

So diehard Miquon folks, what do you think? Keep going with the current way? Suggestions for changes?

Edited January 7, 2012 by MeganW

[Rosie]

Can you give some examples/page numbers where she is not understanding?

 

When you say you are teaching her "the procedure" what exactly does that mean? Are you showing her how to arrive at the answers with the Cuisenaire rods? Or are you showing her how to find the answer using procedures you learned in school?

 

And is this "the baby" in your signature? If so, she may just be a little young. Miquon was written to be started in 1st grade....

[Jay3fer]

Ditto the pp - if this is the 4K, I'd back off.

Actually, either way, I would back off a bit at this point and let her play with the rods in "discovery" mode for a while.

Build staircases, build trains... challenge her to find a rod "bigger than this one" or "smaller than this one" or all the rods "bigger than this but smaller than this" and similar exercises. Build a train of "all one colour" that is the same length as a ten-rod, or any other rod.

The Idea Book is filled with ideas like this, for non-stressful, easy math. I highly recommend it, though you may not be interested if it's only one of your kids having trouble.

 

My favourite project from the Idea Book was making up a batch of play-dough and just letting her press the rods into it to make patterns and shapes. This really is MATH, but it doesn't feel like it, it just feels like fun... :-)

[....]

Hi, we're big Miquon users here...

 

Have you read The First Grade Diary?

 

It's Discovery Math. IMO, if you constantly have to teach the page, they've progressed beyond what they can handle. They should be able to arrive at the answer on their own (maybe with help from the C-rods or a little help from the teacher).

 

Also, I have a huge pet-peeve about the supposed grade levels of this program. Kids really need to be around 1st grade-2nd grade to start this program. Even in the beginning, there's multiplication, fractions...I think red book has multiplying fractions, prime factorization, order of operations...I'm looking at green book right now and it's got exponents, factor houses, I just saw negative numbers... I think the recommended grade levels are a load of Phooey. ;) Many 1st-3rd graders can't grasp those concepts yet. This makes people think the program isn't working or their kid must be behind or something.

 

Also, it's sometimes difficult to figure out what the page is asking. I took calculus in college and I'VE had to look at the answer book to see what the heck the problem was asking! :D

 

Just sayin'...don't give up on the program, but it sounds like your student got ahead of what she can handle. I would take a break from it for a while and try again later.

[Spy Car]

I completely disagree that children need to be in First Grade to start Miquon. Much of the introductory Orange book is perfectly appropriate for a bright preschooler.

 

I would take development cues from the individual child. If they are not grasping the concepts through playful discovery the concepts may be too advanced, and I would not push things a child is not ready to learn. But most of the early Miquon materials in the Orange book are quite accessible to young children and the few topics that are advanced can be returned to later.

 

I treated Miquon as "exposure", although it proved to be a good deal more than that in practice.

 

To the OP, you are the best judge as to whether your child is benefiting from learning through repeated tries using homemade Lab-sheets or if this is causing frustration. I also made a great number of homemade pages—because my son found them fun—but I would not have done so if I'd felt he wasn't ready or not enjoying the process. You will be a better judge of what is appropriate than us what is appropriate or beneficial for your child than any of us. I wouldn't get caught up in any expections either way.

 

Bill

Edited January 9, 2012 by Spy Car

[....]

I completely disagree that children need to be in First Grade to start Miquon. Much of the introductory Orange book is perfectly appropriate for a bright preschooler.

 

I would take development cues from the individual child. If they are not grasping the concepts through playful discovery the concepts may be too advanced, and I would not push things a child is not ready to learn. But most of the early Miquon materials in the Orange book are quite accessible to young children and the few topics that are advanced can be returned to later.

 

I treated Miquon as "exposure", although it proved to be a good deal more than that in practice.

 

To the OP, you are the best judge as to whether your child is benefiting from learning through repeated tries using homemade Lab-sheets or if this is causing frustration. I also made a great number of homemade pages—because my son found them fun—but I wound not have done so if I'd felt he wasn't ready or not enjoying the process. You will be a better judge of what is appropriate than us what is appropriate or beneficial for your child than any of us. I wouldn't get caught up in any expections either way.

 

Bill

 

I was hoping you would reply, even though you disagree with me. :cheers2:

[Kathleen.]

It sounds like you are doing the lesson for her. If it's frustrating for her and you then she's probably not ready yet. Why not just let her play with the c-rods and listen in while you teach Miquon to the others. That way she'll see math as fun, not work.

 

I think I started my oldest at age 5 and my youngest started in September. They picked it up easily.

Sometimes waiting can make a big difference in how quickly they get it.

[Spy Car]

I was hoping you would reply, even though you disagree with me. :cheers2:

 

I doubt, at the end of the day, that we really disagree (at least much). You correcty note that there are some elements of Miquon that are considered "advanced" for an early math program.

 

I also believe that it has very developmental elements that makes it a wonderful program for early math exposure, and this can make it fruitful as a playful (but meaningful) introductory math program, and that much of it is quite appropriate for a 4 or 5 year old (depending). Personally I'm trilled we began exploring with it upon my son's 4th birthday, as I think the approach helped make math a beloved and understood subject.

 

I am sure we would agree that, depending on the individual child, it is better not to "push" learning that the child is not ready for. The approach in Miquon is nothing if not "adaptable," so my approach would be to meet the child on his or her level and make the early exposure "fun." If that could not be accomplished reasonably and without undue frustration I'd take that as a cue that something is out of whack, which would include the possibility that the time was not ripe. And I'm pretty sure that would put us on the same page.

 

The only difference as I see it is that I believe Miquon can make for a fantastic pre-K or K Math experience for many children, especially if parent/teachers are mindful of modifying where necessary the topics get "advanced" early.

 

Where I am feeling uncertain is advising the OP about her situation. I am by no means an opponent of "direct instruction", it has a definate place in education. However, the "beauty part" of Miquon is in its "discovery" aspect. If this is being lost, or the child is feeling like a failure, then it is working against the main goals of Miquon, which—to my mind—are building autonomy and competence.

 

On the other hand, some kids need to do things more than once (or twice) to make them "stick" and for them making pages that are variations on a theme may be exactly what the child needs to learn.

 

So who knows? Not me. This is where a parent has to use his or her inner intelligence and knowledge of their own child rather than going by a schedule that says Miquon (or any program) must be used at some chronological age certain. I'm sure we are in agreement about that.

 

Cheers! :cheers2:

 

Bill

Edited January 9, 2012 by Spy Car

[Rosie]

I completely disagree that children need to be in First Grade to start Miquon. Much of the introductory Orange book is perfectly appropriate for a bright preschooler.

 

 

No, of course children don't absolutely need to be in first grade to start Miquon. We start sometime in the 4 year range, in fact. But the OP's child is struggling so she should know that it's OK if her child isn't getting it quite yet. I just don't want her to give up the program because of that.

 

I do want to add, though, that besides the early introduction of multiplication/division/fractions/exponents there is something else in the curriculum that I've noticed is "advanced" and could be a problem for some young kids - all the abstract symbols. With the introduction of other concepts comes the introduction of the symbols that go along with them. Usually kids in K/1st only have to deal with +, -, and maybe x and ÷. It can be hard enough to internalize the abstract symbols of the numbers themselves for some kids so I could see it being much more difficult when they are expected to remember what to do with parenthesis (or circles as Miquon uses at first) or arrows or all the other random and nontraditional ways Miquon represents certain operations.

 

I absolutely LOVE Miquon and wish every child could use it, but I do see how this could be an issue for some....

[Spy Car]

No, of course children don't absolutely need to be in first grade to start Miquon. We start sometime in the 4 year range, in fact. But the OP's child is struggling so she should know that it's OK if her child isn't getting it quite yet. I just don't want her to give up the program because of that.

 

I tried to make roughly the same point. I don't know, based on what we have learned in the thread if the OPs daughter just isn't ready for Miquon, or whether it is being adapted well for her (or not), or if the child just needs additional repetition to get the concepts and it's all good. I do not know.

 

If it is the former case, and the bulk of the material is beyond her, then (like you) I would say put it aside until it is more fruitful and/or adopt what is appropriate and stick to playful exposure for the time being. There is no reason to force a child who isn't ready. There are, however, many activities that are appropriate to young children. If the exposure is limited to addition and subtraction type exploration of parts and wholes, and finding differences then that is a worthy start.

 

 

I do want to add, though, that besides the early introduction of multiplication/division/fractions/exponents there is something else in the curriculum that I've noticed is "advanced" and could be a problem for some young kids - all the abstract symbols. With the introduction of other concepts comes the introduction of the symbols that go along with them. Usually kids in K/1st only have to deal with +, -, and maybe x and ÷. It can be hard enough to internalize the abstract symbols of the numbers themselves for some kids so I could see it being much more difficult when they are expected to remember what to do with parenthesis (or circles as Miquon uses at first) or arrows or all the other random and nontraditional ways Miquon represents certain operations.

 

I don't recall any exponents beyond making "squares" and that is not until the 4th Level (Green) book, and well after multiplication has been death with as a topic.

 

All the topics you mention are explored in a hands-on concrete fashion as they are taught, so I think it gives a misimpression that children are likely to be thrown by abstract symbols. It any program aims for making topics clear thought concrete means it is Miquon. That is what makes it such a rewarding program to use.

 

I absolutely LOVE Miquon and wish every child could use it, but I do see how this could be an issue for some....

 

I LOVE it too, and agree that you need to meet children on their level.

 

Bill

[Walking-Iris]

I love Miquon. I do occasionally get frustrated with the Annotations. Wish it could get revised sometimes to give more instruction on how to teach certain things or some answers or something---but I love the program otherwise.

 

I think I feel from the op that maybe just maybe she's teaching and then expecting her dc to finish up the rest of the page. I think Miquon works best as a launching pad. I work every page, every problem, with my ds every time. We use Miquon to explore and talk about the concepts presented and then go to other programs for drill and practice/reinforcement.

 

I say if Miquon is frustrating, slow down. When we get to a part that my ds is really having a hard time understanding, we put it away and go to another math program. Usually practice in another math program format helps (and is a good way to see if they can take what they are learning and apply it anywhere---some kids just figure out the format of a program kwim?) and when we come back to Miquon after a few days/weeks we zoom right through.

 

Also I think the grade levels are silly too. If I followed this straight through on some grade level timetable we should be done with Miquon by now---but we take it slowly. And using it with other math resources has worked best.

 

The op mentioned RightStart---if you already have RS, then try to have the two work together.

[MeganW]

This is one of my DDs who is a few months shy of seven years old. She and her triplet siblings were born a few months prematurely, so have some developmental delays. They learn at the same rate as other kids, but just started late and never caught up, so they are about a year behind.

 

Until maybe a year ago, I would have said that this child was my most typical, and the other two were behind her. Now that we have truly started into "school", they have surged ahead and she just hasn't. So although she is almost 7, developmentally she is more like your average, typical almost 6 year old.

 

Here's an example of what we have run into:

 

Orange book p A-7 There is a row with 4 boxes. The first box has one dot. The second box has 2 dots. The third box is to be filled in by the student, and the fourth box has 4 dots. She was TOTALLY CLUELESS.

 

We did the first one together. I explained and she still seemed lost, so I had her write the number of items at the bottom of each box. Then had her read the line. I thought she understood that the pattern was increasing by 1.

 

Then she was thrown for a loop by the second one b/c it didn't start with one - the second row first box has 2 Xs, then the student was to fill in the second box, and the third box has 4 xs, and the student is to fill in the 4th box.

 

The third row has only one of the 4 boxes completed. The second box has 5 diamonds, so the child should fill in 4 diamonds, then go to the third box and fill in 6 diamonds and 7.

 

The fourth row has 3 triangles in the last box, so the pattern should be 0, 1, 2, and 3.

 

So we basically did all those together. The next day I made up a similar worksheet, having her cut out and paste some little clipart pumpkins (it was Sept) to complete the pattern. She still needed a lot of help. She was OK for rows that started at 1, or had the first box filled in, but if the row was to start with something other than 1 or if she had to count backward to figure out what the first box should be, she was confused.

 

We finally got through that, but it took probably 10 worksheets. (And I *hope* she could do it now, but I haven't tried repeating the older stuff recently.)

 

I have read the teacher's materials (lots of times!) in an attempt to figure out where to go from here. I am aware that I am doing is not exactly what is intended, but I just don't know what else to do.

 

So far, I have been holding the other 3 to where this child is, just because she's already worried about being behind the others, and I don't want to let them go way on past her. What's funny is that when she gets it, she LOVES Miquon. She doesn't realize that the worksheets I make up are Miquon-ish, so she hates Miquon when she first sees a new sheet, then gets what she thinks of as a break, then when she re-does the original sheet she loves it!

 

She loves art, but making things out of the rods has NOT been any fun for her at all. (She is also my only kid not into Legos, Jenga, etc.) She's just more of an imaginative kid than a builder.

"Let's build something with rods."

"OK. What should I build?"

"What do you want to build?"

"Can I go draw instead?"

"No, we are doing rods right now. If you were drawing, what would you draw? Maybe we can make that out of rods."

"A fairy!"

"Um, OK, how about some stairs instead?" :)

Edited January 9, 2012 by MeganW

[kristinannie]

I just saw your second post so I deleted mine. I really don't know what I would do in that situation. Good luck!

Edited January 9, 2012 by kristinannie

[Rosie]

Hmmmm, that sounds frustrating. And it does make it especially difficult that she is one of the triplets. It seems like she needs a lot more practice with concrete materials. For instance, with the pattern problems, it sounds like she could have used some practice in making patterns with actual objects (pattern blocks, legos, beads, etc.) and counting backwards (maybe by having a row of items, taking one away and counting backwards while doing so). That particular sheet does not use concrete materials like most of the worksheets, but that doesn't mean you can't make it concrete.

 

It really sounds like she's not quite ready yet for Miquon. (I know that makes it difficult since she's a triplet. Not sure how to advise you there.) RightStart A is a Kindergarten program, right? Could you do that with her and then move to Miquon? Or maybe keep her in RightStart and throw in some Miquon pages now and then as a supplement or to introduce topics (since it's a discovery program)? Just throwing out some ideas....

 

Oh, and I'd totally let her make a fairy with the rods! Nothing wrong with that. She'll still be internalizing the size difference and colors, etc. Would she be willing to play with the rods for 5 minutes (or 10 or whatever) per day as part of "school" as long as she could choose what to do with them?

[Rosie]

Thinking about this some more: I do recall that page being difficult for my middle child (who actually is very "mathy" by the way) when we went through the Orange book. I think I just decided not to worry about it and figured she'd see more things like that in the future and would eventually "get it."

 

That was an example from September. Have you not done any since then or was that just the easiest example to write out? Is she struggling with using the rods to add/subtract?

[Spy Car]

This is one of my DDs who is a few months shy of seven years old. She and her triplet siblings were born a few months prematurely, so have some developmental delays. They learn at the same rate as other kids, but just started late and never caught up, so they are about a year behind.

 

Until maybe a year ago, I would have said that this child was my most typical, and the other two were behind her. Now that we have truly started into "school", they have surged ahead and she just hasn't. So although she is almost 7, developmentally she is more like your average, typical almost 6 year old.

 

Here's an example of what we have run into:

 

Orange book p A-7 There is a row with 4 boxes. The first box has one dot. The second box has 2 dots. The third box is to be filled in by the student, and the fourth box has 4 dots. She was TOTALLY CLUELESS.

 

We did the first one together. I explained and she still seemed lost, so I had her write the number of items at the bottom of each box. Then had her read the line. I thought she understood that the pattern was increasing by 1.

 

Then she was thrown for a loop by the second one b/c it didn't start with one - the second row first box has 2 Xs, then the student was to fill in the second box, and the third box has 4 xs, and the student is to fill in the 4th box.

 

The third row has only one of the 4 boxes completed. The second box has 5 diamonds, so the child should fill in 4 diamonds, then go to the third box and fill in 6 diamonds and 7.

 

The fourth row has 3 triangles in the last box, so the pattern should be 0, 1, 2, and 3.

 

So we basically did all those together. The next day I made up a similar worksheet, having her cut out and paste some little clipart pumpkins (it was Sept) to complete the pattern. She still needed a lot of help. She was OK for rows that started at 1, or had the first box filled in, but if the row was to start with something other than 1 or if she had to count backward to figure out what the first box should be, she was confused.

 

We finally got through that, but it took probably 10 worksheets. (And I *hope* she could do it now, but I haven't tried repeating the older stuff recently.)

 

I have read the teacher's materials (lots of times!) in an attempt to figure out where to go from here. I am aware that I am doing is not exactly what is intended, but I just don't know what else to do.

 

So far, I have been holding the other 3 to where this child is, just because she's already worried about being behind the others, and I don't want to let them go way on past her. What's funny is that when she gets it, she LOVES Miquon. She doesn't realize that the worksheets I make up are Miquon-ish, so she hates Miquon when she first sees a new sheet, then gets what she thinks of as a break, then when she re-does the original sheet she loves it!

 

She loves art, but making things out of the rods has NOT been any fun for her at all. (She is also my only kid not into Legos, Jenga, etc.) She's just more of an imaginative kid than a builder.

"Let's build something with rods."

"OK. What should I build?"

"What do you want to build?"

"Can I go draw instead?"

"No, we are doing rods right now. If you were drawing, what would you draw? Maybe we can make that out of rods."

"A fairy!"

"Um, OK, how about some stairs instead?" :)

 

 

 

Frankly, I think you are on the right course. You have good cause to want to keep her with her siblings (if at all possible) and if she likes (and needs) your homemade lab-sheets that's great!

 

The only suggestions I might offer are (in addition to giving her the extra work) is to try to hit the same ideas in completely different ways and try to involve other real-world objects, activities, and games into the mix. Come at it in "stealth ways" that are fun for all.

 

You might want to look at the MEP materials, which can be downloaded without cost. And especially look at the "Lesson Plan" portions because they have a great number of fun activities for children and teachers to do together (and having 3 kids rather than one is a plus). MEP, plus RS games and elements might stretch your Math Lab in a fun and interactive way. It is certainly worth a look.

 

It is hard to see a child struggle. The best thing you can do is try to keep it fun and hit the same thing from different angles. You say that when it "clicks" she enjoys herself, you just need to find the best way to reach her, and it sounds like you are trying to do just that.

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill

Edited January 9, 2012 by Spy Car

[Walking-Iris]

I think you're on the right course as well. I wouldn't hold the others back though. Let them go on with Miquon and try to do some RS or MEP K level with your dd. Maybe even Singapore Essential math. You may also look into using some Kumon numbers games books or look at the activities in Family Math to work on her numeracy skills.

 

I remember letting my ds write the numbers in the box after counting them and even adding them together---nothing wrong with that. Also nothing wrong with you doing every problem with her. Like I said Miquon works best as a discovery math lab. I think independent math work is best left until 2nd or 3rd anyway...and even then I find math works best with having the teacher right there.

 

But if she's having a hard time counting or recognizing patterns with missing parts...definitely work on that with some other resources as well. She just may not be ready for 1st yet.

[boscopup]

I think you're on the right course as well. I wouldn't hold the others back though. Let them go on with Miquon and try to do some RS or MEP K level with your dd. Maybe even Singapore Essential math. You may also look into using some Kumon numbers games books or look at the activities in Family Math to work on her numeracy skills.

 

:iagree: It sounds like you need to use an actual "K math" program with her, since that's what she's struggling with. I know you want to have all the kids together, but it might be beneficial to put her in a different program with the other kids continuing with Miquon. That way, the other kids can keep going, and they're in different programs, so it's harder to compare (not impossible, but harder).

 

I think my middle son would have had difficulty with that page also. He's done R&S Counting With Numbers and Singapore EM K book A and part of book B, and NOW he could probably do it, but before doing those, I don't think he could have. He needed to be taken there more gradually. Thankfully, Singapore had several pages practicing that concept. We use the C-rods with Singapore, and it's been a great fit for this child that doesn't just get everything easily.

[MeganW]

Y'all are going to die when I tell you what I did, but I felt so much better that I had to report back!

 

I have one extra Miquon workbook that I can copy as needed if someone needs to re-do a sheet. I copied every page we had finished thus far (about 2/3 of the Orange book) and asked her to re-do them all. Yep, all of them. (Not in one day obviously - over the past few days.)

 

She did GREAT!!!! I was worried that she wouldn't remember those we had figured out previously, but after a quick review of what to do, she knew how to do it. Minimal instruction, more like I expected the program to require in the first place. YAY!!!

 

So I am going to assume that it is OK to keep going as I have been, slowly and with lots of support up front making sure she gets each page before moving on. WOOHOO!!

Edited January 11, 2012 by MeganW

[MeganW]

Hmmmm, that sounds frustrating. And it does make it especially difficult that she is one of the triplets. It seems like she needs a lot more practice with concrete materials. For instance, with the pattern problems, it sounds like she could have used some practice in making patterns with actual objects (pattern blocks, legos, beads, etc.) and counting backwards (maybe by having a row of items, taking one away and counting backwards while doing so). That particular sheet does not use concrete materials like most of the worksheets, but that doesn't mean you can't make it concrete.

 

It really sounds like she's not quite ready yet for Miquon. (I know that makes it difficult since she's a triplet. Not sure how to advise you there.) RightStart A is a Kindergarten program, right? Could you do that with her and then move to Miquon? Or maybe keep her in RightStart and throw in some Miquon pages now and then as a supplement or to introduce topics (since it's a discovery program)? Just throwing out some ideas....

 

Oh, and I'd totally let her make a fairy with the rods! Nothing wrong with that. She'll still be internalizing the size difference and colors, etc. Would she be willing to play with the rods for 5 minutes (or 10 or whatever) per day as part of "school" as long as she could choose what to do with them?

 

We do have RightStart A. The problem there is that we school away from home (in therapy offices) 4 days a week, and on day 5 we are at Classical Conversations. RightStart just requires so much stuff - lugging it along is impractical. I love what we did of it before the therapy schedule intensified, but we haven't done much in several months.

 

I would definitely help her make a fairy with the rods if I was creative enough to figure out how! :)

[MeganW]

Thinking about this some more: I do recall that page being difficult for my middle child (who actually is very "mathy" by the way) when we went through the Orange book. I think I just decided not to worry about it and figured she'd see more things like that in the future and would eventually "get it."

 

That was an example from September. Have you not done any since then or was that just the easiest example to write out? Is she struggling with using the rods to add/subtract?

 

Yes, we have done a lot more - I just grabbed my book and flipped to a page to give an example. That one was easier to describe than some of the others!

[MeganW]

Frankly, I think you are on the right course. You have good cause to want to keep her with her siblings (if at all possible) and if she likes (and needs) your homemade lab-sheets that's great!

 

The only suggestions I might offer are (in addition to giving her the extra work) is to try to hit the same ideas in completely different ways and try to involve other real-world objects, activities, and games into the mix. Come at it in "stealth ways" that are fun for all.

 

You might want to look at the MEP materials, which can be downloaded without cost. And especially look at the "Lesson Plan" portions because they have a great number of fun activities for children and teachers to do together (and having 3 kids rather than one is a plus). MEP, plus RS games and elements might stretch your Math Lab in a fun and interactive way. It is certainly worth a look.

 

It is hard to see a child struggle. The best thing you can do is try to keep it fun and hit the same thing from different angles. You say that when it "clicks" she enjoys herself, you just need to find the best way to reach her, and it sounds like you are trying to do just that.

 

Best wishes!

 

Bill

 

Thanks - exactly what I needed to know! Whether it was OK to continue as I was doing, and how to supplement to make this work. I bought "Kitchen Table Math" last week. Hopefully that will have some new ideas like you are describing. Part of my problem is not being very creative about how to get at the same concept in other ways!