borderline personality disorder horror stories? s/o fake cancer

[LaxMom]

These people can and do destroy lives (several generations). They steal holidays, and memories and use up good emotions. They generally get off without any repercussions. Criminal really.

I am sorry if you find discussing experiences and getting support to be bashing. I am a child of a BPD mother. I FEAR FEAR FEAR that I will treat my children like she treated me. I watch myself channeling her sometimes and I stop myself. I love listening to these stories. I see it as another way to create an early warning system. (when I feel like doing this--wait--- here is where it could lead).

 

I do, as well. It's probably the reason I tend to replay every conversation I have throughout the day over and over in my head, analyzing my choice of words, trying to figure out if I said something that might have been hurtful to someone... I was reading the list from Harpy's Child to my husband a few weeks ago and had to stop short at one item; I had done something similar with him a few months ago. I had to apologize. He was very understanding about why I wigged out it the first place, but also pointed out that recognizing my own actions in that list is probably a sign that I'm not a narcissist. But still, there's a part of me that wonders, if he says I was justified, will I see it in the future? Or will I just justify for myself?

[zaichiki]

The one huge difference w/someone that has NPD is they believe themselves to be *perfect*. They don't seek help, they don't ever modify their behaviour, b/c it's everyone else that has the problem, never, ever themselves.

 

Ppl with other illnesses/disorders can and do seek help. NPDs won't.

 

There are many people out there with Schizophrenia and Bipolar who do NOT seek help. I don't think people here would be using that as a license to insult them.

 

There have been a few threads on this forum that have insulted people who are labeled as having a mental illness (NPD, BPD, etc.)... there has been name calling. Some people here who defend and support people with depression and bipolar diagnoses have actively bashed people who they have said have NPD/BPD.

[4kids4me]

Oh my gosh, thank you. You have just clarified some things for me (and my husband). As being relatively new to dealing with this, it is so good to hear this perspective!

 

No problem. One huge issue I've had to overcome with myself is that I'm a Christian...and you know, (this is going to be said sarcastically) "Christians are supposed to forgive. Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek." Even my own sweet FIL, a pastor, recently said three times (I think he may have dementia!) that the church goes too easy on forgiveness without talking about repentance.

 

(He then went on to ask how my mom was and was surprised that I still don't talk to her and told me I should. I said, "Dad, you've JUST told me three times within five days that you don't agree with the church's stance on forgiveness and now you're telling me I should not be estranged with my mom when she's been terribly manipulative and destructive to our whole family!!!")

 

Here's the thing...you will most likely not be supported. I'm going to generalize, but NO ONE will understand what you're dealing with. Personality disorders are not well-known and people, in general, have NO CLUE how manipulative and destructive those with personality disorders can be. You will feel alone. But you're not. I've felt alone and it was a hard, hard, excrutiating (sp?) decision to become estranged with my mom, but I could not ignore her behaviour any more. DH was DONE with it all, and I'd gone against his warnings for YEARS on it. No, my immediate family was more important (my mom has bipolar but it wouldn't surprise me if she had NPD, too). Now my sister, whom I spoke of before, has BPD (among a host of other things...she proudly told me that BPD people love their diagnoses), and I have chosen to still have a relationship with her but I am no longer emotionally swayed by her. I have COMPLETELY backed off of her life and what she does and doesn't do no longer afffects me emotionally (well, for the most part). ;)

[Tigger]

:iagree: And I find it more than a little disturbing that so much bashing goes on of people who have BPD, NPD and other personality disorders. I realize that dealing with these kinds of disorders among family can be incredibly stressful, but it is almost as if BPD and NPD are treated like second class citizens of the mental disorder world. It's okay to have a free-for-all and totally trash on someone who has it, but we'd all recoil in horror if people were ripping apart someone with OCD, Bipolar, or Clinical depression, e.g.

 

One reason is that with treatment and medication those with OCD, Bipolar and depression can and do manage well - those with BPD/NPD and other cluster-B disorders are resistant to treatment, they're next to impossible to treat and even when they *want* to change (which is rare), it still remains problematic. If you haven't dealt with a BPD or NPD, routinely in your life, maybe you just don't understand that it isn't merely a difficult person you can rationalize with and try with, they almost never change and nothing is ever their fault.....they're called emotional vampires for a reason!

[Tigger]

I'm not sure. I don't really know all that much about NPD, tbh. I know that *I* was capable of seeing these things in myself and worked hard to change it. The last mental health practitioner I saw (the one that diagnosed the OCD) said that, based on his sessions with me, he was pretty sure I don't have BPD. However, there's no way for him to tell if I never really had it to begin with and was misdiagnosed, or had it and somehow worked through it. From what I've read, some people just grow out of it once they're away from the abuse, though I have no idea how common that is. The behaviors I had before I learned about BPD did match up pretty well with the diagnostic criteria, though.

 

I'm sure others can explain more about NPD.

 

I think your therapist helping with the OCD is correct, one of the major features of those with BPD or NPD is they totally lack introspection - if you have introspection, you do not have BPD.

[Seeker of Schole]

I'm a Christian...and you know, (this is going to be said sarcastically) "Christians are supposed to forgive. Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek."

 

This is big for us right now. How to forgive (that's hard enough), but not set up for this in the future. I REFUSE to allow her to hurt my youngest (that ship has already sailed with my oldest). Also, she pulled the "honor thy mother" line on DH. Poor guy. So now he's struggling with that as well. We just keep coming back to the idea that he did honor her by not responding / engaging and saying anything awful in return.

 

Thank you so much. It's good to hear from someone that has gone through it. As you know, NPDs are really good at making you feel guilty or like you're the crazy one. :tongue_smilie:

[Tap]

I have family members with BPD.

 

Some of the most hurtful things they have done are to call CPS on unsuspecting family members and made false accusations. ie saying a child was locked in a room, but the accuser didn't realize that the room in question had no locks and the doors opened inwards so they couldn't have been blocked off. There is no way to lock someone into that room.

 

 

I almost didn't get involved with taking in dd5 because of it. I knew it would ruin the little bit of extended family relationships that I did have because I don't listen to or respond to their accusations and excuses for things. It did, but honestly life is easier without any of them in my life at all, so I just go on without them. I would confront them on their lies, but the rest of my family doesn't and whats worse is that they let the people with BPD keep changing their story until they find one they like to stick with. :001_huh: I have a very forgiving mother and siblings. Forgiving to the point of enabling. I have one sister in particular and mom who LOVE to rescue people, and feel needed. They are the perfect pair for those with BPD to continue on their road of destruction.

 

I would love to see these family members get some help, but they don't see it in themselves, and my family doesn't seem to see it either, so I just stay away!

 

I do have empathy, because they keep themselves in a perpetually bad situation and often do run out of food or money because of it. That is why may family gets sucked back in. They don't want their loved ones to suffer. But, those with BPD, know that my family will always catch them. They will never be hard up for long or suffer more than a day or so before someone rescues them.

 

I also have members of my family who have conditions that they are absolutely not in control over, like paranoid schizophrenia. To me it is different. This family member had no control over her illness and she lived in an institution off and on her entire adult life because of it.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Tap, tap, tap

[Tigger]

I find these responses very interesting. It seems obvious who has been on the receiving end of a NPD. It's certainly not that I don't understand disorders. I have lived with people with depression and OCD, and dealt with others with a variety of issues. I have received help myself. As far as NPD, I can only speak to my experiences with my MIL, and I have no sympathy for her. My sympathy is reserved for her victims - her son, daughter and grandchildren. What she did to them while they were growing up is ... well, there are no words. As a result, they both have diagnosed conditions. When I first started dealing with her I had sympathy, and hope. Now, no, because I have realized that I can do one of two things - be sympathetic to her, hope she will get help and continue to allow her to hurt those I love, or be done with the crazy. After the viciousness of Christmas, guess what I choose...

 

:iagree: the wake of destruction they leave, to the non's is incredible and I too see the effect on my DH and recently our older DS (even though we've done a ton to protect him from her machinations).

[Tigger]

This is big for us right now. How to forgive (that's hard enough), but not set up for this in the future. I REFUSE to allow her to hurt my youngest (that ship has already sailed with my oldest). Also, she pulled the "honor thy mother" line on DH. Poor guy. So now he's struggling with that as well. We just keep coming back to the idea that he did honor her by not responding / engaging and saying anything awful in return.

 

Thank you so much. It's good to hear from someone that has gone through it. As you know, NPDs are really good at making you feel guilty or like you're the crazy one. :tongue_smilie:

 

I've come to the conclusion that forgiveness comes through reconciliation (being sorry, acknowledging you've done wrong, apologizing and making amends to not to it again) - you don't get that from someone with BPD or NPD.

[Greenmama2]

Ack, you're scaring me. What if I am the one who has it? Borderlines project, right?

 

This is my response to all these threads too.

[4kids4me]

This is big for us right now. How to forgive (that's hard enough), but not set up for this in the future. I REFUSE to allow her to hurt my youngest (that ship has already sailed with my oldest). Also, she pulled the "honor thy mother" line on DH. Poor guy. So now he's struggling with that as well. We just keep coming back to the idea that he did honor her by not responding / engaging and saying anything awful in return.

 

Thank you so much. It's good to hear from someone that has gone through it. As you know, NPDs are really good at making you feel guilty or like you're the crazy one. :tongue_smilie:

 

Another poster on this board suggested reading Foolproofing Your Life by Jan Silvious. This book RADICALLY changed my POV on how to deal with my mom and has helped me with the grieving process. I cannot recommend it highly enough. The church is so willing to tell us to forgive and let us be doormats, but how often do we hear about fools in our lives and what to do with them???? This book will give you the freedom to say NO MORE. But the church still won't support you. Oh well!!! Amen!!!

 

(As a sidenote, there is no way I can "tell" my story about my mom without it seeming so bizarre and believable. People just can't understand the craziness and manipulation...it is inconceivable! And then how to deal with it in a "Christian" way???? What I say is this: go with your absolute gut instinct and listen to your spouse, even if it's not what you've been indoctrinated with at church. "Christ in you, the hope of glory" will speak to YOU and tell you what to do. Trust it 100%!!!!!)

[Sue G in PA]

My latest therapist casually mentioned to me one day that I might want to check out BPD b/c she thought I showed a lot of the signs. We didn't talk about it much after that, but I did Google it and there are quite a few of the warning signs that I DO see in myself. Particularly the fear of abandonment (either real or imagined...it doesn't matter). BUT, there are a lot of the signs that I don't exhibit. My husband recently during an argument told me he thinks I have BPD, b/c my therapist mentioned it to him as well and suggested he look it up so he can "be informed". So based on that ONE 3 min. conversation with my therapist, dh had decided I had BPD and was mentally ill and a host of other things. It wasn't pretty. ANYWAY, what made it all worse and still does is dh's extreme co-dependency. What drove me to seek help years ago wasn't BPD...it was depression, which perhaps was masking the underlying BPD? I'm not sure. I see behaviors in myself, thought patterns, that I've never been able to explain. I "KNEW" they were unhealthy and "odd", but couldn't figure out why I acted or thought in such a way. BPD explains some of it, but not all. I lived with a father who was very volatile. We all walked on eggshells around him. I've always thought he was Bipolar. But now I wonder...could it be BPD? He WAS abaondoned as a child and lived with a very violent and whacked father and was abused. But, if I do have BPD, I feel like there is HOPE. I tried meds for years and none really did the trick for the depression or the behaviors or thoughts. I'm off meds now and doing really well. Hmmm.... BPD is a behavioral disorder...there are no meds that can FIX somebody with BPD. Therapy can and often does. I've come a long way since starting therapy years ago. But whatever it is that I have, I see a lot of my father in me and while I used to be a lot worse when it comes to my "temper tantrums" and outbursts, I still struggle. I've been known to keep kids up cleaning their room b/c it had all of a sudden just "gotten to me" and I couldn't help it! I was on a "rampage" and wouldn't stop until the room was clean. I'm very grateful that I never hurt my children physically...but mentally and emotionally...my older children probably have some scars. :( I'm also grateful that I have recognized these horrible things in myself and worked hard to overcome them. My father never did...he never thought anything was wrong with him. It was always everyone else's fault. :glare: I am much more in control of my "tantrums" these day although I still feel it rising up occasionally...seeing a messy room, an unclean kitchen, food in the living room when we have repeatedly said no food in there, unorganized school papers, etc. I'm rambling. I'm sorry. People with BPD can really upset the fabric of the family (unintentionally). My family growing up was incredibly dysfunctional. My father was always "normal" in public. Nobody knew...except one of my friends who happened to witness one of his "tantrums" and was FREAKED OUT!

[4kids4me]

This is big for us right now. How to forgive (that's hard enough), but not set up for this in the future. I REFUSE to allow her to hurt my youngest (that ship has already sailed with my oldest). Also, she pulled the "honor thy mother" line on DH. Poor guy. So now he's struggling with that as well. We just keep coming back to the idea that he did honor her by not responding / engaging and saying anything awful in return.

 

Thank you so much. It's good to hear from someone that has gone through it. As you know, NPDs are really good at making you feel guilty or like you're the crazy one. :tongue_smilie:

 

Wayne Jacobsen of Lifestream Ministries defines forgiveness as another owning your pain. Have you ever had anyone say to you, "I'm sorry you're hurt about this. I'm sorry you're hurt about that"? It's so unauthentic. You KNOW when someone has owned your pain. Another ministry that helped me understand my mom was Luke 17:3 Ministries (http://www.luke173ministries.org/). The articles were SO SO SO helpful. It was like lightbulbs going off every two seconds. If my mom hadn't done something they'd explained, she was GOING TO do it...and she did!!!! I felt way better armed after reading about NPD on this site.

 

And the "honour" your mother bullcrap...that's law and we live by grace. But we live by a faith that does not allow us (and our children) to be abused over and over and over again.

 

My mom hurt my eldest the most (mostly because she was the eldest and at the time could see what my mom was doing). If she did it to my eldest, she would do it to any of my kids. Dr. Phil says something like, "The best indicator of future behaviour is past behaviour."

 

And in all honesty, your personality disorder loved-one will never own up to their behaviour and feel your hurt.

[Seeker of Schole]

Another ministry that helped me understand my mom was Luke 17:3 Ministries (http://www.luke173ministries.org/). The articles were SO SO SO helpful. It was like lightbulbs going off every two seconds.

 

One paragraph into one article and I'm already saying "Wow!"

 

Thank you again! :D

[4kids4me]

One paragraph into one article and I'm already saying "Wow!"

 

Thank you again! :D

 

I know, eh? One time my mom combined a few things they said she'd do. They said that one with NPD would suggest family counselling (and they go into great detail about what would happen in a session...which described exactly what she did years ago with me) and they also said that she'd catch me off-guard, at a really bad moment for me, and have me make a big decision.

 

So there I am, driving during a rainstorm to my MIL's home because she's dying and I don't have much time left. I'm mega-stressed, driving on a busy highway as fast as I can. My phone rings (it's illegal here to talk on the cell), but I see it's my mom, and though I haven't talked to her in MONTHS, and though she's already been told I didn't want her to see my kids without supervision, and though my dd wrote her a letter spilling her heart out to her nana and nana ignored the letter, Mom says, "I hear you're going to ____ to see your MIL. I know the kids are alone. Why don't I bring them a hot meal and stay with them overnight so you can be with your MIL?" Then I burst into tears (while driving on a crowded highway during a rainstorm, holding the steering wheel with one hand)...see, it all "seems" so nice, right? So I burst into tears and say that she hasn't spoken to dd #1 for MONTHS, dd #1 is upset with her and the next day was her birthday. Mom replied, "Well, she's upset anyway, so it won't hurt her to see me." WTH? Then she goes, "I've been wanting to talk to you about us going to family counselling."

 

Oh just kill me now. NOW, you're going to bring this up?

 

In the end she didn't go to my home and I immediately called my sister (who had told my mom) and told her to NEVER tell mom anything about my life again. Sheesh.

 

ETA: I just want to say that *I* have been TREMENDOUSLY helped on the board by sweet woman who have given their time and expertise in helping me through this. It is SO nice that I can pay it forward and give you the information that they gave me.

[gardenmom5]

I think the attitude toward the people in general is the problem. People with things like depression or OCD are seen as good people that have problems they need help with, and deserve our sympathy. People with personality disorders seem to be viewed around here as these annoying and horrible creatures worthy of mocking and contempt, and there's this subtle undertone that they are responsible for their own behaviors.

 

It probably doesn't help that every other story about BPD seems to be about someone's mother-in-law, a somewhat despised class of person if ever there was one. :rolleyes:

 

You may make light of how these people affect their families, but for me, it was my grandmother (and my brother. only one of his adult children has any relationship with him.) - and her behavior was mentally and emotionally abusive and extremely damaging. It took my 35 YEARS to get completely past what she did. 20 years after she died.

 

stating that fact is not "bashing". It is not "gossip". It is a statement of fact - I've lived with the damage. I've tried to clean up after the damage, both in my life and helping my mother. I can have compassion that she was probably abused in her life - it does NOT EVER excuse the controlling and manipulative insidious and destructive games she did to her child and grandchildren. One typical hallmark is those who are being psychologically abused by those with this disorder, are often not believed, constantly invalidated with the repeated message that "we" are the problem, and no one is willing to listen to them in much of anything.

[gardenmom5]

When you get into the territory of Personality disorders - Multiple, borderline, schizophrenia, etc. it gets "scary" to some. These disorders don't seem to affect as many of the population - they aren't as widespread and well known...and generally, what people don't understand...they fear.

 

My mother had schizophrenia. DD's best friend is OCD.

 

I'll tell you, they were downright NORMAL, and emotionally SAFE compared to my NPD grandmother and brother.

[AuntieM]

This is big for us right now. How to forgive (that's hard enough), but not set up for this in the future. I REFUSE to allow her to hurt my youngest (that ship has already sailed with my oldest). Also, she pulled the "honor thy mother" line on DH. Poor guy. So now he's struggling with that as well. We just keep coming back to the idea that he did honor her by not responding / engaging and saying anything awful in return.

 

Thank you so much. It's good to hear from someone that has gone through it. As you know, NPDs are really good at making you feel guilty or like you're the crazy one. :tongue_smilie:

 

Have you read Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend? It addresses this topic well (Christian forgiveness within boundaries, forgiving yet not being a doormat for future abuse, etc). I highly recommend it, as have many on this board.

[Audrey]

nevermind

Edited January 8, 2012 by Audrey
not worth it anymore

[Lara in Colo]

Have you read Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend? It addresses this topic well (Christian forgiveness within boundaries, forgiving yet not being a doormat for future abuse, etc). I highly recommend it, as have many on this board.

 

 

Here's a funny for you--- My brother (for reasons I don't not know) recommended this book to my BPD mother---she did not like it (surprise!) and coudn't listen to the authors because she didn't find them to be reliable.--something about their credentials not being Christian enough--

[Audrey]

nevermind

Edited January 8, 2012 by Audrey
not worth it anymore

[Impish]

Audrey,

 

How much quarter should someone give?

 

When someone causes constant upheaval, pain, and appears to be down right gleeful at other's struggles, lies to cause more pain...

 

At what point are ppl allowed or is it at least understandable, that they cannot take anymore, and holler, "ENOUGH!"

 

Yes, NPD is a form of mental illness. However, all the sympathy and empathy on the planet isn't making anything easier to deal with.

 

People react to their experiences. When someone has a smirk watching someone else cry, deliberately smears them to all and sundry, deliberately sets out to cause problems in marriages (and even brags about it!)...they do appear to be evil, mental illness or no.

 

People get worn out. They get tired. They get used up. Decades of dealing with this behaviour leaves them hurt, frustrated, angry.

 

For me, it's not just my MIL that fits NPD criteria like a glove. My mother does as well.

 

As others have mentioned, I spend a lot of time, terrified, that I may be following in my mother's footsteps, praying that I never, ever, put my children through even 1/10th of what my mother did to me.

 

Talking to others with these experiences is validating. So much of NPD can be gaslighting, "You're remembering wrong!" etc that you start to wonder if *you're* losing your mind. What's wrong w/you, that (in my case) your mother can be lovely, charming, all around wonderful with other ppl, yet so nasty and rotten to her own dd?

 

And that's a big part of the problem, the ability to flip btwn Jekyll and Hyde. If ppl w/NPD can behave perfectly well with others, why can't they do it at home too?

[AuntieM]

Here's a funny for you--- My brother (for reasons I don't not know) recommended this book to my BPD mother---she did not like it (surprise!) and coudn't listen to the authors because she didn't find them to be reliable.--something about their credentials not being Christian enough--

 

Oh boy... I'm not surprised your mom didn't like it!

[Audrey]

nevermind

Edited January 8, 2012 by Audrey
not worth it anymore

[zaichiki]

I've come to the conclusion that forgiveness comes through reconciliation (being sorry, acknowledging you've done wrong, apologizing and making amends to not to it again) - you don't get that from someone with BPD or NPD.

 

I have found that one can forgive someone even if they do not ask for forgiveness. I have forgiven my mother for many things. It was not (and is not) easy. It is a process and a journey. Forgiveness is not something that I do once and it is over. There is distance between us: we don't speak often and she doesn't see my kids except on very rare occasions. This was an important step b/c I wouldn't have been able to forgive and move on unless I was able to stop the hurt. I stopped it by stopping the interaction. Now I can forgive (am forgiving) and move on. (I still have resentment from some of my childhood experiences, but I am working on it.)

[kalanamak]

No problem. One huge issue I've had to overcome with myself is that I'm a Christian...and you know, (this is going to be said sarcastically) "Christians are supposed to forgive. Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek." Even my own sweet FIL, a pastor, recently said three times (I think he may have dementia!) that the church goes too easy on forgiveness without talking about repentance.

 

Borderlines are the people who need tough love the very most.

 

I think of them as a "desert within". It is arid and lifeless in there and they only exist when someone else is paying attention to them.

There is a reason BPD, NPD, and anti social are grouped (cluster B traits), but while an anti social might think nothing of hurting you, and a NPD might get glee out of putting you down, a BPD does it only to feed that IMMENSE void within. They do not "split" people out of sadism, but because if 5 people are fighting over attacking vs. protecting them they have a five-fold reduction of the void within.

 

My personal way of dealing with them is to engage as along as they are appropriate. Once they get too familiar or too demanding, I step back immediately. It is rather like learning to drive a car: veer too far one way, and you're on the shoulder kicking up gravel, veer too far the other, you are driving over the midline bumps. This translates into: cut yourself and I will not stop and chat with you today or tomorrow, and while you, without a genuine need except to fill that void within, wail I am ignoring you, I calmly reply "I am trying to teach you to not engage others by cutting yourself." I have the luxury of complete honesty, because I don't live with these people, and because if they decide to physically attack me, I am protected by many alert and professional staff.

 

But it is very hard work. Not only putting up with the threats and insults, but making sure every conversation has no loose bit of yarn hanging out, such that the patient can grab it and happily unravel my sweater.

 

Laymen often end up HATING BPD people because they are not so protected, they are tired, they fail over and over to have something reasonable happen, and honestly, it is very refractory to any improvement. Hence the increasing isolation of the BPD person. And the vicious cycle continues. Think about how awful it would be: we humans are social creatures genetically. Imagine being so repulsive you are shunned, and have no clue how to change. Sounds a bit hellish to me.

[Lara in Colo]

I KNOW I am gonna get blasted for this but:---

 

Really how much of their antics is a real mental problem and how much is just a case of being a bully and not being held accountable?

 

I think there is a portion of mental illness (different for each person) but there is also a lot of just 'getting away with it cause they can'.

 

Most of the time a BPD person gets better because the abused refuses to take any more carp.

 

 

There are children that are abused (s8xual, physical etc) who do NOT abuse-- I am sure that there are BPD people who have others that keep them in check--- I know my DH will often keep me balanced when I am too much like she who will remain nameless

[4kids4me]

Impish, there is a big difference between discussion and bashing. I think you must know the difference. I do not expect anyone to put up with the tactics of NPD/BPD people in their lives, but one can recognise the illness is the problem and address that without calling the person names. Some of this thread is discussion. Some is definitely not. In other threads on this board, very little is discussion. It is a bashing post and a bunch of supporting posts trashing the offender in the OP.

 

The only person on this thread who said that those with PD are monsters and beasts is you. That has been the only direct name-calling that's gone on. The rest of us are on a journey of discovery, learning about what PD are and how it's affected us. And you know what? It's about time! Finally I can see I'm not alone. Finally there's a name for all the craziness, manipulation and destruction I've (and my husband and children) lived with all my life! You mention the bashing is continual...this is a THREAD about PD. Of course the stories will all be about...PD! If you don't like it, then don't read this thread.

 

I went back and reread every single entry. This has not been a thread of bashing, but sharing stories and resources. And yes, families have been wrecked. For my family, I will not blame my mom solely on the family wrecking. I take the blame, too. For too long I thought that her manipulation, lying, controlling behaviour was ok and that I was being a good daughter by allowing her to do it. But with people with PD there seems to be no in between. It's impossible to make boundaries with my mom. So being able to have threads like this where I can learn about it and hear others' stories and realize that this really truly ISN'T ok behaviour, and to be led to other sites that have given me, as a VICTIM, much information...there are no words to tell you how indebted I am to this board and the ladies on this board that have shared their experiences and stories with me. It has freed me.

[4kids4me]

I have found that one can forgive someone even if they do not ask for forgiveness. I have forgiven my mother for many things. It was not (and is not) easy. It is a process and a journey. Forgiveness is not something that I do once and it is over. There is distance between us: we don't speak often and she doesn't see my kids except on very rare occasions. This was an important step b/c I wouldn't have been able to forgive and move on unless I was able to stop the hurt. I stopped it by stopping the interaction. Now I can forgive (am forgiving) and move on. (I still have resentment from some of my childhood experiences, but I am working on it.)

 

That is true...I described forgiveness as one owning the pain they caused another. That is actually RECONCILIATION!!! oops!!!! Good description!

[4kids4me]

I KNOW I am gonna get blasted for this but:---

 

Really how much of their antics is a real mental problem and how much is just a case of being a bully and not being held accountable?

 

I think there is a portion of mental illness (different for each person) but there is also a lot of just 'getting away with it cause they can'.

 

Most of the time a BPD person gets better because the abused refuses to take any more carp.

 

 

There are children that are abused (s8xual, physical etc) who do NOT abuse-- I am sure that there are BPD people who have others that keep them in check--- I know my DH will often keep me balanced when I am too much like she who will remain nameless

 

What you're saying has been my experience.

[4kids4me]

Borderlines are the people who need tough love the very most.

 

Laymen often end up HATING BPD people because they are not so protected, they are tired, they fail over and over to have something reasonable happen, and honestly, it is very refractory to any improvement. Hence the increasing isolation of the BPD person. And the vicious cycle continues. Think about how awful it would be: we humans are social creatures genetically. Imagine being so repulsive you are shunned, and have no clue how to change. Sounds a bit hellish to me.

 

On one of my previous posts, I referred to women on this board that have helped me through this whole process of dealing with those in my life with mental illness. You, kalanamak, have been one of those sweet, experienced woman that have guided me through this tough process, giving me many nuggets of information that has really helped this process. Thank you!!!!

[Audrey]

nevermind

Edited January 8, 2012 by Audrey
not worth it anymore

[gardenmom5]

No problem. One huge issue I've had to overcome with myself is that I'm a Christian...and you know, (this is going to be said sarcastically) "Christians are supposed to forgive. Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek."

 

I struggled with this too. as the only christian in my family (other than my grandmother, she considered herself one.), I often heard "christians are supposed to forgive". I struggled with how much contact to have, the feeling that I somehow was being expected to lay down on the alter to her worship, and hand her the knife to sacrifice me with to her ego. I was praying every day for guidance on how to deal with this woman, (I hope I don't offend anyone, this was just how my answer came to me.) I got an answer as I was reading the Book of Mormon (we have a four year rotation for sunday school, with the OT and NT being one year each), I came across a verse that jumped off the page at me. Alma 61:13

13 But behold he doth not command us that we shall subject ourselves to our enemies, but that we should put our trust in him, and he will deliver us.

 

I felt like that was my answer. I did not have to lay down on her alter, and I certainly didn't have to give her a knife to sacrifice me with. boundaries were implemented, and strengthened over time, and I trusted in God as I worked through it all.

 

I also think there are two stages/types to the forgiveness. for the offender, they do need to repent - but that often does not happen. Besides, that's not our responsibility. for the victim - they need to understand forgiveness does NOT equal absolution. It's letting go of the power the person has over us so they can't hurt us anymore. As any know who have dealt with this first hand - it's the voices in our heads when we close our eyes and they aren't even here! forgiving the other person is taking away the power of that voice. It's turning it over to God (or the law if it is a legal issue), and then letting go. Most likely we will have to erect boundaries and walls to protect ourselves and our families. but it will be out of sight, out of mind because they no longer have power over us.

 

When someone has a smirk watching someone else cry,

I can still see my grandmother's "smirk", and it makes my physically ill, such was the power of her brainwashing/mind-control. she had a 50th anniversary picture with "THAT" smirk. It was all I could do not to rip it up. I gave it to my brother. Honestly I couldn't have it in my home.

 

 

Talking to others with these experiences is validating. So much of NPD can be gaslighting, "You're remembering wrong!" etc that you start to wonder if *you're* losing your mind.

 

:iagree: we are always the ones made out to be ungrateful little wretches and we are always at fault. I was attacked by my own family members for my disloyalty to her. People on the outside, are incapable of seeing it because it is gaslighting and they aren't there. unless they've actually experienced it firsthand, they are clueless to the insidiousness of it. It was years before I received any validation.

 

I have found that one can forgive someone even if they do not ask for forgiveness. I have forgiven my mother for many things. It was not (and is not) easy. It is a process and a journey. Forgiveness is not something that I do once and it is over. There is distance between us: we don't speak often and she doesn't see my kids except on very rare occasions. This was an important step b/c I wouldn't have been able to forgive and move on unless I was able to stop the hurt. I stopped it by stopping the interaction. Now I can forgive (am forgiving) and move on. (I still have resentment from some of my childhood experiences, but I am working on it.)

 

:iagree: I believe forgiveness is not about the other person, but letting go of the hurt so it no longer has power over us.

Edited January 8, 2012 by gardenmom5

[Impish]

I KNOW I am gonna get blasted for this but:---

 

Really how much of their antics is a real mental problem and how much is just a case of being a bully and not being held accountable?

 

I think there is a portion of mental illness (different for each person) but there is also a lot of just 'getting away with it cause they can'.

 

Most of the time a BPD person gets better because the abused refuses to take any more carp.

 

 

There are children that are abused (s8xual, physical etc) who do NOT abuse-- I am sure that there are BPD people who have others that keep them in check--- I know my DH will often keep me balanced when I am too much like she who will remain nameless

Honestly, that's part of the issue. It's what I call the Jekyll and Hyde. When someone can behave and treat others well, yet prey on their family and ppl closest to them, how much of it is a choice?

 

That contrast is what keeps many ppl enmeshed w/someone w/NPD. The hope that if they're good enough, loving enough, patient enough, the person w/NPD will treat them as well as they've witnessed others being treated.

 

(I'm only talking about NPD, b/c it's what I have experience w/)

 

There's loads of guilt too. I wouldn't walk away w/someone who has cancer, or diabetes. But, I've extremely limited contact w/my mother and MIL b/c of their behaviour. There's always a voice in my head wondering if it's the right thing to do, b/c they appear to have NPD, a mental illness. If I wouldn't limit contact if they had a physical illness, is it right for me to do so when they appear to have a mental illness?

 

So, yeah. Loads of guilt.

[Seeker of Schole]

Audrey - I'm hesitant to jump into this 'discussion' but here goes. If this topic bothers you so much, why are you reading this post? When I see a topic that will bother me, I just skip it...

 

There may have been instances in previous posts where people were saying horrible things about BPD or NPD or any other PD, but I fail to see that here. Somebody asked for examples as a reference, A few examples were provided. Where is anybody 'raging on' their faimly members? No one is going on and on about how horrible anybody is. Why does it bother you so much that people are discussing something that affects them, sometimes horribly?

[Audrey]

nevermind... have at it

Edited January 8, 2012 by Audrey
not worth it anymore

[Seeker of Schole]

Honestly, that's part of the issue. It's what I call the Jekyll and Hyde. When someone can behave and treat others well, yet prey on their family and ppl closest to them, how much of it is a choice?

 

 

Exactly. Which is why people cannot understand or are shocked - the "but she's so sweet..." syndrome. It just keeps us wondering if it's really that bad, or if we're making it too big of a deal. It's not fun second guessing everything.

[4kids4me]

Audrey - I'm hesitant to jump into this 'discussion' but here goes. If this topic bothers you so much, why are you reading this post? When I see a topic that will bother me, I just skip it...

 

There may have been instances in previous posts where people were saying horrible things about BPD or NPD or any other PD, but I fail to see that here. Somebody asked for examples as a reference, A few examples were provided. Where is anybody 'raging on' their faimly members? No one is going on and on about how horrible anybody is. Why does it bother you so much that people are discussing something that affects them, sometimes horribly?

 

Thanks, hkchik.

 

I agree with you. This kind of thread was an absolute lifesaver to our family. To me. Without this kind of forum to be able to discuss something that has paralyzed our family for years, I can honestly say that physically I'd be doing way worse than I am. The stress that we endured in 2009 alone with my mentally ill family members left my hormones in havoc and I'm still paying the price. I desperately needed answers but didn't know where to turn (the local mentally ill support group had both mentally ill and family members of mentally ill people...and my mom was a part of it, so that wasn't going to help). And I'm still in the grieving process, so Audrey is partially right. I AM angry. I am ticked that when my mom got herself into a VERY very serious quandry, I asked two trusted people (her friend and her pastor) to help support her while my dh and I went to talk to her, and they both said no. This, I truly believe, was because of her antics and I think that we were the ones left looking crazy. I'm ticked that my mom left my child with a psychopath (long story, but there really was a psychopath living with her)...and moreso that I was duped by society and church into believing that my mom deserved every right a grandparent should have to my children. HA! I'm ticked that the majority of Christians do not support us in our decision to become estranged from my mom. I'm ticked that my dh and I literally saved mom's life, and she turns around and slanders my name to friends (apparently I'm a horrible, horrible person). Yes, that's pride. I recognize it. I'm ticked that I have to gently explain to my four kids that they cannot see Nana anymore...I mean, how do you do that with little ones? (We've found a way, but it's painful.) And no pill will make this go away. This is who my mom is. This is who she chooses to be.

[Mergath]

The reason why there is a subtle undertone that they are responsible for their own behaviour is that they are.

 

Yes, in the same way that a schizophrenic is responsible for his or her behavior. They are responsible for getting help, but the mental illness is not his or her fault, and the behaviors that come from it are a symptom of that mental illness.

[Mergath]

I think your therapist helping with the OCD is correct, one of the major features of those with BPD or NPD is they totally lack introspection - if you have introspection, you do not have BPD.

 

Not necessarily. I've read plenty that points to the contrary. It's different for everyone.

[zaichiki]

Yes, in the same way that a schizophrenic is responsible for his or her behavior. They are responsible for getting help, but the mental illness is not his or her fault, and the behaviors that come from it are a symptom of that mental illness.

 

Mergath,

 

It's hard for people who love those with mental illness, sometimes, to tell whether a behavior/choice is a symptom of the illness or whether it is a part of who they are. No one is perfect. We all make the wrong choices sometimes. Sometimes we even do things to hurt others on purpose in a moment of anger. Everyone.

 

But what if you cannot tell if a person should be held accountable for an action or not? What if they did something to hurt you, but they also have a mental illness? Do you just attribute *everything* to the illness?

 

My brother and I have had discussions, with one another, about this very thing. I won't share specifics here, but it is difficult for us. When can we be allowed to be angry? When is it alright to say "Hey, you have no right to treat me that way!" When is it acceptable to demand an apology? And when can you expect one? When is it acceptable to react the way you would if someone *without* mental illness treated you this way? (I have found my own personal answers to these questions with respect to my mother, but it changes. Sometimes I feel like I've gotten beyond it all and I can just be the duck. Sometimes I feel like it just. isn't. fair.)

 

And it just doesn't ever feel FAIR that someone can do things to hurt you and you can't hold them accountable. They can do *anything* to you and you're just supposed to say "Well, it's the mental illness." Sometimes we just want to be *allowed* to be angry at the way we have been treated. Sigh.

 

It's hard. It's just hard.

[4kids4me]

Mergath,

 

But what if you cannot tell if a person should be held accountable for an action or not? What if they did something to hurt you, but they also have a mental illness? Do you just attribute *everything* to the illness?

 

And it just doesn't ever feel FAIR that someone can do things to hurt you and you can't hold them accountable. They can do *anything* to you and you're just supposed to say "Well, it's the mental illness." Sometimes we just want to be *allowed* to be angry at the way we have been treated. Sigh.

 

It's hard. It's just hard.

 

:grouphug: I know. I know.

[Mergath]

I don't think I'm going to reach an agreement with some here, so I'm just going to bow out of the conversation now.

[Tarreymere]

BPD usually arises as the result of abuse. The problem is that people with BPD have very black and white thinking, and they'll either love you or hate you. You can say something completely innocent, but in their mind, you've crossed over to the "bad" side, and they now hate you, whereas they had probably idolized you before. That's how it works- when they don't hate every fiber of your being, they love you more than anyone else in the world. There's no grey area.

 

That gets tied in to a horrible fear of abandonment, so you end up with a lot of scenarios like, "I hate you! I hope you die! Wait, don't go, please, I was kidding, please stay!!" But then when you agree to stay, they flip back to hating you.

 

I'm pretty sure I did have it for a long time, but it is possible to "heal" from something like that, because it's something that is done to you, not something that is wrong with your brain physically. My thought processes were just like I described, and it wasn't something I could really control, not until I read about BPD and understood what's going on. The emotions you feel are so overwhelming you're pretty much just at their mercy, and do what you have to in order to keep people from leaving you, which is terrifying to an extent I can't really describe when you have BPD.

 

 

My DH has been involved in running a Dialectic Behavioral Therapy group for folks with BPD, to help them learn to reframe their thoughts so that they could have more control over their reactions to different interpersonal situations. Have you heard of it?

[Mergath]

My DH has been involved in running a Dialectic Behavioral Therapy group for folks with BPD, to help them learn to reframe their thoughts so that they could have more control over their reactions to different interpersonal situations. Have you heard of it?

 

Okay, after I answer this I'll be bowed out of the conversation, lol.

 

I've heard of it, though I have no personal experience with it. It's interesting though that parts of DBT are supposedly taken from some Buddhist practices, and I spent a few years studying and practicing some aspects of Buddhism before they told me I didn't have BPD anymore (or never had it to begin with, who knows). Maybe something about Buddhism calms certain kinds of mental illness.

[Tap]

Okay, after I answer this I'll be bowed out of the conversation, lol.

 

I've heard of it, though I have no personal experience with it. It's interesting though that parts of DBT are supposedly taken from some Buddhist practices, and I spent a few years studying and practicing some aspects of Buddhism before they told me I didn't have BPD anymore (or never had it to begin with, who knows). Maybe something about Buddhism calms certain kinds of mental illness.

 

That would make sense. Being able to calm your body and mind, when urges come up, whether they were physical or mental compulsions, would benefit many, many people. It would be beneficial if they have a diagnosis or not.

 

 

A lot of what we do with dd5, is helping her learn new behaviors that are more socially acceptable instead of her more atypical responses. I think that as she gets older we will look into Yoga and then into Tai Chi to help her with her physical needs. I think there will more of the Eastern Meditation arts in our future.

[Seeker of Schole]

Based on this conversation, I thought I would look up info on BPD and NPD. The two are in the same family, but there are some distinct differences. I found this to be a very interesting difference, especially given previous thoughts in the thread - taken from Psychology Today concerning rage attacks:

 

As you know, people with BPD are emotionally unstable. Nearly all emotions go up and down, but anger is the one that others find most hard to take. Their intense and annihilating anger comes from believing that others don't care about them, are not listening to them, or are not meeting their core needs. Their pain is your punishment. You're still, though, the equal in the relationship.

Conventional BPs (self-harming, suicidal, evident low self-worth) may feel shame, embarrassment, and desperation when they calm down and realized they've pushed people away. They may apologize and promise not to do it again. But unless they're in treatment, the underlying issues don't go away. Some conventional BPs do not get angry at all, but hold it in or express it inward through self-harm.

The anger of narcissists, on the other hand, can be more demeaning. Their criticism evolves from their conviction that others don't meet their lofty standards--or worse, aren't letting them get their own way. "Narcissistic injuries," or wounds to the ego, often pave the way for narcissistic rages, which can be passive-aggressive or planned out, as well as sudden. They are above you and you have displeased them and probably deserve punishment they will dole out.

 

End quote. So based on that, clearly these two diagnoses should not be completely lumped together / treated the same. BPD people are capable of seeing that they have done something inapropraite and feeling bad for it. NPDs are not. Hopefully that will maybe help some see why those of us dealing with NPDs loose our ability to feel sympathy for them.

[GWOB]

Jumping in late. I want to be respectful of those suffering from personality disorders, but as a child of someone who closely resembles the descriptions of either BPD or NPD, I feel like I should speak. I will address the OP first.

 

I had a friend who was diagnosed with BPD. We met when our dhs were stationed on the same sub. She seemed ok at first. I thought something was a little off, but I enjoy quirkiness. Soon she became obsessed with being pregnant. Her dh wanted to wait, but this friend would seriously poke holes in condoms to get her way. For real. She didn't want a baby. She just wanted to be pregnant. She constantly tried to put me down using emotional guerilla warfare. Since I grew up with a mentally ill mother, I never really noticed the abuse.

 

When our dhs went on deployment, her symptoms really increased. We (my other friend and I) found out she was a cutter. She started dressing like me. She started talking (quite overmuch) about how awesome my dh was. While in the mall with her, she pretended my dd was hers just to get the attention. When our little group of wives (BPD friend, other friend, and I) got a package from our guys, BPD friend had a huge fit because other friend and I got pics of our dhs and she didn't. Big blow-up. After a week we were friends again.

 

During the first 3 months of deployment, friend took at least 5 pg tests every month. It was a huge production. Never mind the fact that it was highly unlikely that she would be getting pg while her dh was 5000 miles away. When she finally accepted the fact that she was not pg, all he!! broke loose.

 

We all went out to dinner one night. Friend was perfectly normal. The next day she called us to tell us that she went into the emergency room later that night because she felt suicidal. What really happened was that she thought if she was suicidal the Navy would send her dh home so she could get pg. that plan backfired. Her dh finally saw how ill she was and refused to have a baby until she sought help. Things got really intense with her friends after this convo with her dh. Calls got MUCH more frequent. Problems got bigger. The imitation went over the line. She started cutting again. The last straw came when she lied to her dh and told him her md said she would be cured if she got pg. I cut off all contact with her.

 

After I ended the friendship, I started getting hang-up phone calls. A lot of hang-up phone calls. I lived in the ghetto. I was scared. I didn't know who was doing this. I had called the cops on a few neighbors (drugs, stolen property, running up and down the street screaming "Osama Bin Laden). I thought I was being stalked. Then I noticed a pattern. No hang-up calls when her dh was home. I suspected her. The day she moved, all calls stopped. That was the end of my interaction with her.

 

I will not go into the he!! My mother has put me through. Dragons asked about BPD. This was my experience with a non- family BPD patient.

[Perry]

My mother was never diagnosed, but she definitely had some sort of personality disorder, most likely BPD, along with agoraphobia and substance abuse.

 

Here's one example.

 

My parents divorced when I was 23 and my brother was 13. Although she hated my dad, she was enraged that he left her. She got custody of my brother, but she made his life hell and he kept running away to my dad's place. During one of the times he was staying at Dad's, she drove to db's school to pick him up. He didn't want to get in the car, but she promised him ice cream and that she'd drop him off at my dad's afterwards. He got in, and instead she drove 5 miles into the country, where she stopped the car and threw the keys into a cornfield. Db ended up walking home, by himself, on unfamiliar roads, inappropriately dressed for the weather, while my mother threw herself a pity party. He was lost, chased by dogs, hungry, and distraught by the betrayal of his own mother.

She did stuff like this all the time. That one sticks in my mind because it was the last straw for me, and I cut off all contact with her.

 

She was angry all the time, and was physically and emotionally abusive. She locked me out of the house and threw out my personal belongings (ALL of them) more than once. Her silent treatments were legendary, although she rarely gave me the courtesy of explaining what I'd done wrong. The few times I knew, it was over something trivial, like accidentally slamming the door. The silent treatments would last weeks. She didn't talk directly to my dad for years. When I was 16 she told me she was going to kill herself. I immediately told my best friend, who told her mother. Alarmed, she called my mom, who of course told her that I made it up -- for attention.

 

I don't feel as if I'm bashing her or anyone with a mental illness. I feel sorry for her- she had a miserable life. I wish I had understood much earlier that she had a mental illness and think it's useful for people to discuss it openly. There is certainly a stigma, but I think discussion can help people to better understand BPD.

[Tarreymere]

I was looking throught the dialectic behavioral therapy stuff Dh has at home and I thought it looked really interesting. I see that it does resemble some Buddhist practices. Dh is really big on mindfullness.

 

I've been actually trying out some of the exercises myself, with some really good results. I do have an MH diagnosis, but mine is anxiety and these ideas are helpful to me as well.

 

DH wants to extend the DBT group to include the incarcerated males in the local jail who have had a history of anger management issues (he is on the forensic MH advisory board) since he thinks that DBT can be helpful for anger management in these men also. He thinks that BPD is not always diagnosed in men but that males do in fact have this more often than is conventionally thought and that in men the presenting issue is likely anger management and domestic abuse (as the abuser). His arguements make sense to me. I'm following along as Dh keeps me updated.