s/o feminism - gentlemen

[Mrs Mungo]

But we are talking about manners which are exclusively reserved for women. The examples that I have in mind are the ones that are not based on any actual differences (e.g. a woman is capable of pulling out her own chair, yet, they do it for her only because she is a woman). Is it okay, nice because it is old-fashioned? Or is it patronizing?

 

It isn't just because I am a woman. It is because it is hard to scoot chairs in and out in a ball gown and high heels. It would be weird in a business setting with collegues in regular clothes. I have never had a man attempt to seat me in a business setting as opposed to a dress-up social occasion. I think it is desirable to have different sets of protocol for different situations.

[TheHomeScientist]

If you consider yourself a feminist, are you in principle opposed to that nearly extinct species of gentlemen who treat women with a particular kind of regard that is not extended to other men (e.g. opening door to women, giving up their seat to women, pulling out women's chair for them before they are seated in restaurants, etc.)? Why or why not? I am talking exclusively about those special forms of politeness that are traditionally reserved for women because they are women (IOW, something feminists, in theory, "should" have a problem with).

 

Well, I do all of those things but I consider myself a feminist in the sense that I believe that women are equal to men in every respect (other than the obvious physical differences) and should have equal rights and opportunities. I also *like* women, which very few men do. (Most men want to have sex with women, of course, but few of them actually enjoy spending time with women in general; at parties, I always end up with the women in the kitchen while the rest of the guys are in the den watching the game.)

 

I also recognize that women are, in general, smaller, weaker, slower, and less aggressive than men and that some men consider women to be prey. Accordingly, I'm very protective of women, walking them to their cars in dark parking lots and so on. I also oppose having women in ground combat, both because they can't pull their weight (literally) and because in combat men will do incredibly stupid things to protect their women. That said, I have no problem with women, say, being fighter pilots.

 

And I don't believe that men who are polite to women are even close to being an extinct species. It's true that many of us think twice because some women berate men who do things like hold doors for them. (I've had that happen many times over the last 40 years or so.) And that's fine. I think the essence of being polite to women is to treat them as they wish to be treated. If that means not holding a door for them, fine.

[Jennifer3141]

It isn't just because I am a woman. It is because it is hard to scoot chairs in and out in a ball gown and high heels. It would be weird in a business setting with collegues in regular clothes. I have never had a man attempt to seat me in a business setting as opposed to a dress-up social occasion. I think it is desirable to have different sets of protocol for different situations.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

My husband LOVES me in high heels. Now we have about a foot of snow on the ground and my personal preference is Danskos.

 

I'll wear my high heels on a date but he knows that means he's on fall duty. If I go down because of those crazy shoes, he'd BETTER be on the bottom of the pile.

 

Now when I'm bopping along in my Danskos, I'll happily hold the door for him if I get there first. :D

[justamouse]

 

My husband LOVES me in high heels. Now we have about a foot of snow on the ground and my personal preference is Danskos.

 

I'll wear my high heels on a date but he knows that means he's on fall duty. If I go down because of those crazy shoes, he'd BETTER be on the bottom of the pile.

 

Now when I'm bopping along in my Danskos, I'll happily hold the door for him if I get there first. :D

:iagree: When I'm in heels he'll walk right beside me so I can hold onto his arm. Or when I'm dressed up he'll hold the car door open so I can tuck myself in.

[TheHomeScientist]

I used to have a problem with it. I remember in during one summer of college I was staying in a house with a few other students. There was a young man from the south who insisted that I go up the stairs before him. I insisted that he go up the stairs before me. We both stood at the bottom of the stairs stubbornly for a long time.

 

Which reminds me of the supposedly true story told to me by a friend who'd been an advisor in Viet Nam in the late 50's. There was an elderly Vietnamese couple he encountered every day. The man would walk past with his wife several steps behind him. One day, he finally asked the guy why his wife always walked behind him. "Tradition," was the response. Many years later, he was back in Viet Nam and encountered the same elderly couple, but this time the wife was walking in front. When my friend asked why the change, the old guy responded, "Land mines."

[Jennifer3141]

Which reminds me of the supposedly true story told to me by a friend who'd been an advisor in Viet Nam in the late 50's. There was an elderly Vietnamese couple he encountered every day. The man would walk past with his wife several steps behind him. One day, he finally asked the guy why his wife always walked behind him. "Tradition," was the response. Many years later, he was back in Viet Nam and encountered the same elderly couple, but this time the wife was walking in front. When my friend asked why the change, the old guy responded, "Land mines."

 

 

Niiiiicccce. :glare:

 

Bonus points to the wife if she'd shoved him in front of her on a land mine! :tongue_smilie:

[Lady Florida.]

I have no issues with recognizing the differences and even celebrating the differences, as long as my freedom and competence are also recognized. Manners make everything more pleasant for all.

 

:iagree:

[Bootsie]

I probably fall into the "feminist" category (although I don't like labels like that because the word can mean very different things to different people). I am not insulted when a man opens a door for me, although it is awkward if he goes way out of his way to make sure that it is done. I find it a bit awkward when a man pulls a seat out for me; I am always concerned I am not going to sit in the seat properly. I teach my son to give up his seat for a woman if he is in that situation, although in reality if there is one seat it goes to my husband because he has severe back problems.

 

I get irritated when I try to get off an elevator and I am almost knocked over by some of my male college students trying to get out of the door first. I just want to say, "Didn't you ever learn any manners. Not only am I a woman, I am over twice your age and your professor!" I keep suggesting to myself that it is a cultural thing because in some cultures the most important person is supposed to go through the door last (but I don't think that is the case.)

[Mrs Mungo]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

My husband LOVES me in high heels. Now we have about a foot of snow on the ground and my personal preference is Danskos.

 

I'll wear my high heels on a date but he knows that means he's on fall duty. If I go down because of those crazy shoes, he'd BETTER be on the bottom of the pile.

 

 

We once had a winter ball in Germany that was held in a castle on a top of a hill. DH had a broken foot. I was in high heels. We were 45 minutes late because it took us so long to get up that stupid cobblestone hill.

[TheHomeScientist]

We once had a winter ball in Germany that was held in a castle on a top of a hill. DH had a broken foot. I was in high heels. We were 45 minutes late because it took us so long to get up that stupid cobblestone hill.

 

I hope it took you just as long to get down.

[Jennifer3141]

We once had a winter ball in Germany that was held in a castle on a top of a hill. DH had a broken foot. I was in high heels. We were 45 minutes late because it took us so long to get up that stupid cobblestone hill.

 

 

I went to a winter ball for DH's work once with him. He is the world's WORST dancer. And I mean that with all the love I can muster but it is next to impossible to dance with someone whose hips, knees, and ankles become locked whenever music plays.

 

So not only did I have to get all gussied up and have to leave my babies (at a time when DS was going through all the autism diagnostics and melted if I was out of the room) but I had to make him look good while doing all this.

 

It was like trying to dance with a scarecrow made of metal. :lol::lol:

 

The only way we got through it was I whispered to him that I had spent the money, the time, the worry, etc. etc. and when we got home he owed me <insert some really dirty talk here>.

 

That was the longest dance of my life and thankfully some other doctor's wife felt ill so DH "monitored" her for the rest of the night while I surrepticiously read a little pocket book I'd stuffed down my shawl. :D

 

That's feminism to me! :001_smile:

 

I'll wear heels in February. I'll dance backwards with a man who has apparently stroked out and lost control of everything under his neck. I'll abandon my babies. But later on in night, there had BETTER be payback or there will be suffering. A great deal of suffering... ;)

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I hope it took you just as long to get down.

 

:lol:

[Garga]

:iagree: When I'm in heels he'll walk right beside me so I can hold onto his arm. Or when I'm dressed up he'll hold the car door open so I can tuck myself in.

 

But in those cases, he is doing that for you because you have a "disability"--you're teetering on high heels and honestly could fall over. So, that's not really what the OP is asking about.

 

 

One time a man and I reached a door aaaalmost at the same time. I didn't want to deal with him feeling like he had to open the door, so I slightly sped up to get to the door first. I opened it. He said, "That's just not right!"

 

I'm not sure what he meant. Did he notice that I sped up slightly and was insulted that I deliberately bypassed him opening the door? Did he not notice that I deliberately bypassed him and had thought it would be better for me to slow down to wait for him to get the door? I really didn't want to do the "dance" of waiting for him to open the door, so I tried to bypass it, but got a reprimand for my efforts. This happened about 3 months ago, and he was around my own age (late 30s.)

 

Another time I was at a lunch with the following:

me, in my late 30's

three men ranging from 34 - 42

one man in his 70's.

 

When it was time to order the food, I assumed we'd start with the eldest, because he surpassed us by 3 decades. But, one of the men, turned to me and said, "Go ahead, Garga..." indicating that he expected me to order first, as the woman. I felt that we were being rude to the elder among us, and the man felt he was being polite to the woman among us.

 

I don't know the point of these stories, but I fall more on the side that I wish men wouldn't treat women differently. It unnerves me. I've read too much about what it was like to be a woman in America when there was inequality. And I've heard too much about what it's like in other countries where women are second class citizens. Having men treat me differently because I'm a woman reminds me of all the negatives of that kind of society. The reason behind doing those things (opening doors, pulling out chairs) aren't valid anymore and don't really make a lot of sense nowadays.

 

Whoever gets there first opens the door. I'm more comfortable with the eldest ordering the meal first, rather than the woman. Everyone pulls out their own chair. Whoever is the weakest sits on the bus seat.

[Rosie_0801]

It is more a matter of access and acceptability rather than a true reluctance to do business with a certain person.

 

I guess I still don't understand. What does it matter if Joe Bloggs doesn't do business with Jews or whoever because he doesn't know any Jews or whoevers?

 

Rosie

[laundrycrisis]

:001_rolleyes:

Just wondering.

 

If you consider yourself a feminist, are you in principle opposed to that nearly extinct species of gentlemen who treat women with a particular kind of regard that is not extended to other men (e.g. opening door to women, giving up their seat to women, pulling out women's chair for them before they are seated in restaurants, etc.)? Why or why not? I am talking exclusively about those special forms of politeness that are traditionally reserved for women because they are women (IOW, something feminists, in theory, "should" have a problem with).

 

I have no problem with traditions that are meant as a form of courtesy. And I hold doors open for men too. As a courtesy. Because it works both ways. When someone holds a door for me I smile and say thank you. And most men smile at me and say thank you when I hold a door for them.

 

Pulling out chairs and opening car doors are actions I have not had much experience with. Perhaps I was never girly enough to inspire my dates (all male) to do this for me ? :lol:

 

BTW, I think it's a good idea for both genders to learn how to follow these traditions when they need to, because you never know what social or business situation you may find yourself in when they might be necessary. In college, I had a frat boy friend who described to me in great detail the formal dinners they had with sororities, in which they practiced all of these traditional manners. I was all :001_rolleyes: really ? Gross. Not for me...I'm not a lady, I'm a woman ! Anywhooo.. a few years later, at a corporate conference, I ended up seated next to the CEO :eek: at dinner, and the only woman at the table...and it being Texas, he chose to be all traditional and use all those manners, pulling out my chair, having me order first, having me taste the wine first, etc, etc.....GAH ! I was incredibly grateful to my friend for telling me all about those formal dinners because that conversation was the only reason I knew how to behave ! Being a young engineer and sitting next to the CEO, this was a career-influencing moment. As a young female engineer in a very traditional company, and a feminist, I found it ironic that so much was riding on me knowing how to behave in such a traditional way at a formal dinner ! I also found it a bit offensive but no way was I going to screw up the opportunity to discuss plant economics with the CEO over old-fashioned table manners, right ?

Edited January 5, 2012 by laundrycrisis

[Catwoman]

Just wondering.

 

If you consider yourself a feminist, are you in principle opposed to that nearly extinct species of gentlemen who treat women with a particular kind of regard that is not extended to other men (e.g. opening door to women, giving up their seat to women, pulling out women's chair for them before they are seated in restaurants, etc.)? Why or why not? I am talking exclusively about those special forms of politeness that are traditionally reserved for women because they are women (IOW, something feminists, in theory, "should" have a problem with).

 

My dh has always been very courteous, and I still appreciate it. Most of the men I have dated have done the things listed in the OP, as well as most of the men I've gone out with on a casual "just friends" basis.

 

I guess I've just always assumed that men would behave in that way, so when a few of them didn't, I thought they had lousy manners. :rolleyes:

 

I never really thought of it as a feminist issue -- for me, it was more of a manners thing, but I know other women view it differently.

[WTMCassandra]

I have had those kind of gestures made for me by some men whose doing so made me want to go lift cars, just to prove I was not a shrinking violet, and by others whose doing so made me want to smile and thank him. The difference for me is that the first type of man does it because of his predisposition to think certain things about himself as a man and me as a woman with which I strongly disagree; the second does it because he is polite, and is thinking of extending a courtesy. IOW, attitude is everything, in this as in so many other areas. :001_smile:

 

:iagree:

[Catwoman]

Sadly, yes, they do. When I talked about not being thankful that a guy nearly knocks me over to reach the door first, I was not kidding. I'm in the deep south, and when I first entered the professional working world in 1988, there were definitely (older) men who would do stuff like this in order to show you that you might have gotten the job, but you were first and foremost a female in their minds. And I did qualify some of them as spiteful jerks, because they loved to make the most of the awkwardness that ensues when a female trips and nearly falls when they break into a jog and snake their arm in front of her to open the door.

 

I have always assumed that men would hold a door for me, so in my work experience, when the men in the office rushed to open a door for me, I smiled and thanked them. I figured that they had good manners, and never once assumed they were doing it to prove they were somehow superior to me. It never would have dawned on me to think something like that. It's not like they were saying, "Here ya go, little lady," and patting me on the butt or something; they were just opening a door. ;)

 

I remember speaking to a friend about something similar when I saw her rush to open a door before a man at work could do it for her, and when I asked her about it, she said something about how she was a feminist and he was an old-fashioned man trying to keep women down by insisting on following old stereotypes. I was right there with her, and I would swear to this day that the man was just being polite.

 

I think it's all a matter of each individual's personal experiences coloring the way we view things.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Catwoman

[Catwoman]

For a man to open a door for a woman and receive a dirty look, I'd argue it is her without manners, not him.

 

 

:iagree:

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

Why assume that a person has some sort of covert ulterior motive unless you already know from other past experiences that the door-opener-guy is a weasel?

 

Most of the time, I truly think that when a man holds a door for you, or your date pulls out your chair at dinner, he's just doing it to be nice, not because he's secretly plotting against you and wants to make sure you know who's boss.

[pqr]

 

I would never expect a co-worker to open my door in a car we shared to lunch, but I do expect my dh to do so when we are on a date. I'd never expect a business associate to offer me his coat if we were stuck outside and cold (and there was only the one coat to go around), but I sure love it that my dh does so.

 

In social situations -- parties, dinners, etc -- I think it is lovely when a man acts like a gentleman or a woman like a lady, but I do not EXPECT men outside my dh and ds to get the door for me or whatever, and taking these roles in business situations is risky business, IMHO.

 

As a male I think you should expect the above.

 

Any man who stands around while a woman is cold and does not offer his coat may be male but he is not much of a man.

 

 

In a social situation (or others) any man who does not hold the door for a woman .... again he may be male but not much of a man.

[Catwoman]

As a male I think you should expect the above.

 

Any man who stands around while a woman is cold and does not offer his coat may be male but he is not much of a man.

 

In a social situation (or others) any man who does not hold the door for a woman .... again he may be male but not much of a man.

 

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

You're my kind of guy, pqr, and your wife is a lucky woman!

[pqr]

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

 

You're my kind of guy, pqr, and your wife is a lucky woman!

 

 

Well, thank you most kindly. I do appreciate the comment.