kandty Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 DS "K" is in 5th grade and is doing Delta in MUS. He doesn't really understand math. He is horrible at memorizing. So as you can guess we still struggle with basic math. I have tried everything I can think of to help him with math. We do review daily. I don't know how to expain it so that he understands and I don't know how to help him memorize his basic facts. We are slowly making little progress. We constantly review, we use Xtra math online, and I have briefly tried other math programs (math mammoth and rightstart) to see if I could find a better fit. He is a visual learner. Any thoughts? How can I make MUS work for him or what do I need to switch to? I have considered Singapre and Horizon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 CLE? It has plenty of review and facts practice built in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
almondbutterandjelly Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Have you tried Teaching Textbooks? I used Singapore with my visual learner for awhile (1A through 3A) but eventually switched to TT. She loves it. Take the placement test, no matter which math you get. For basic math facts, allow your visual learner to look at the charts of facts in order to complete actual work. It, frankly, is sheer torture to memorize math facts. Looking at the chart will take the pain away, and honestly, is good because they are "seeing" it, appealing to their visual learning style. Also, try Dianne Craft's materials, or for multiplication, I like Memorize in Minutes and Times Tales. Stories utilizing the facts can be very helpful. I can't think of any resources for the addition and subtraction facts that use stories, but they are probably out there. Maybe the Mathstart books? Try livingmath.net (I think that's the site) for good math picture books. Loreen Leedy has some good books. Manipulatives for things can be very helpful also. My visual learner needed Inch squares and centimeter cubes and actual physical manifestations of these "math concepts" to get them. I assume you have hundreds, tens and ones blocks. Those are great. Math can be really tricky, and I think a certain amount of it has to be aged into, honestly. Just remember to appeal to the visual learning style constantly. Color, picture, humor, story are the velcro that make things stick to their brains (I'm quoting Dianne Craft now). Best of luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PentecostalMom Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Have you tried Teaching Textbooks? I used Singapore with my visual learner for awhile (1A through 3A) but eventually switched to TT. She loves it. Take the placement test, no matter which math you get. For basic math facts, allow your visual learner to look at the charts of facts in order to complete actual work. It, frankly, is sheer torture to memorize math facts. Looking at the chart will take the pain away, and honestly, is good because they are "seeing" it, appealing to their visual learning style. Also, try Dianne Craft's materials, or for multiplication, I like Memorize in Minutes and Times Tales. Stories utilizing the facts can be very helpful. I can't think of any resources for the addition and subtraction facts that use stories, but they are probably out there. Maybe the Mathstart books? Try livingmath.net (I think that's the site) for good math picture books. Loreen Leedy has some good books. Manipulatives for things can be very helpful also. My visual learner needed Inch squares and centimeter cubes and actual physical manifestations of these "math concepts" to get them. I assume you have hundreds, tens and ones blocks. Those are great. Math can be really tricky, and I think a certain amount of it has to be aged into, honestly. Just remember to appeal to the visual learning style constantly. Color, picture, humor, story are the velcro that make things stick to their brains (I'm quoting Dianne Craft now). Best of luck! Do you know where I can find a good printable chart of these? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 SM is a mastery program, might not work for your kid if he need reviews. Horizon will be a better fit IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyLittleBears Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) CLE? It has plenty of review and facts practice built in :iagree: We switched from MUS after delta to CLE. My ds was not "mastering" and there was just not enough review. We also tried several other programs including TT, R&S, MM, Singapore & Saxon. This was the only one that worked. Now he does not have a chance to forget anything. They have a very accurate placement test. Edited January 3, 2012 by MyLittleBears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 Thanks everyone for your thoughts! :bigear: Anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsplaymath Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Sometimes students struggle with math because there are so many steps to each problem. Often we teachers (and even most math programs) don't recognize how very many little steps we take for granted. For example, I went through a fairly "simple" mixed number problem on my blog and counted 7 major steps required to solve it, most of which consisted of many smaller steps: Subtracting Mixed Numbers: A Cry for Help A wonderful math program that breaks everything down to the basic steps is JUMP Math. It doesn't cost you anything to try it, except the cost of some printer ink and about one month's worth of lesson time. It's a different approach to teaching, and to make it succeed will probably take a bit of mental revamping -- but if it succeeds, it could make a world of difference for your son. Background to help you understand the program External Research that Supports JUMP Math's Approach The barriers that keep students from learning math, and how JUMP Math is designed to answer each problem. Teachers, students, parents, tutors and other educators describe their experiences using JUMP Math Videos about the program. The most helpful to me in understanding the program were the videos featuring John Mighton and . The latter includes encouraging comments from several students, too. Review of JUMP Math at the NY Times What you need to start the program You have to create a free account on the website to download the books. Everyone starts with the Introductory Unit on Fractions, then after your student finishes that unit (which should take about a month), you proceed to whichever grade-level book is appropriate for your son: Teacher's Manual for Getting Ready for JUMP Math: Introductory Unit Using Fractions (read and follow it carefully) Student workbook Answer key for practice test and final test Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) DS "K" is in 5th grade and is doing Delta in MUS. He doesn't really understand math. He is horrible at memorizing. So as you can guess we still struggle with basic math. I have tried everything I can think of to help him with math. We do review daily. I don't know how to expain it so that he understands and I don't know how to help him memorize his basic facts. We are slowly making little progress. We constantly review, we use Xtra math online, and I have briefly tried other math programs (math mammoth and rightstart) to see if I could find a better fit. He is a visual learner. Any thoughts? How can I make MUS work for him or what do I need to switch to? I have considered Singapre and Horizon. I'm no expert, and I don't know your DS the way you do, so take anything I say with a grain of salt! :) But, here are a few thoughts, for what it's worth: Do I have this right? It sounds like you have 2 completely different issues going: 1. does not understand math concepts 2. trouble memorizing math facts First, have you considered getting DS tested for any learning disabilities? It can be a real help to rule out any problems. OR, if there are specific learning issues, getting a solid diagnoses, while an emotional blow, will help you know better what you need to do in order to address the issue. There can be physical problems (eye tracking, need for vision correction); cognitive or processing problems (such as Asperger's ADD/ADHD, or Visual or Auditory Perceptual Deficit); or learning problems (such as dyscalculia -- disorder causing difficulty in grasping math concepts and solving basic math problems). Any one of these can cause problems with learning/doing math. #1 - Does not understand math concepts. This is definitely the big issue. Again, I would first rule out any potential learning disability. If you are not looking at a specific LD, then meet your DS where he is. Don't worry about grade levels. Go way back and work on the concepts DS doesn't "get", and then move on to the next area. Math concepts build on one another, and if DS is lost at his current level of math, then the best thing for him is to back up to the point where he does understand the math, and slowly move forward from there. Give him that sound foundation that is critical for being able to do the later math. If you feel this route would best address your DS's needs, then this would also be a good time to consider a change in math programs -- to Singapore or Horizon, as you were asking about. Singapore moves at a very brisk pace, and is from a VERY different angle of instruction -- many parents don't "get" the Asian style math instruction, so this may be difficult for you, as the instructor. Singapore teaches a "bar" method for visualizing what you have and what you need to find for word problems, and really encourages "math thinking" and problem-solving. It is mastery-based and a workbook-based program (which is very helpful for math strugglers, compared to something like Saxon, which, starting in grade 4, requires the student to write out the problems from the textbook onto paper). Side note: Math Mammoth is very like Singapore, although easier for American parents to teach (a little less "Asian" in instruction) -- so if DS did not at all "get" Math Mammoth, then there is a good chance Singapore will NOT be a good fit. If you go this route, then back up to Singapore 2A and 2B; get solid in the foundational skills; 3A and 3B introduce word problems and the "bar" method. Horizon is workbook-based, spiral-based math program. It is very simple in layout and not overwhelming. It will also be from a very different point-of-view in instruction method from MUS. It would be easy to teach. It would be easy to back up to an early level and do 2 grades-worth in one year to make sure DS has a solid foundation -- again, maybe start at the grade 2 level. Another program to consider is Saxon 3. Saxon is a solid program with traditional-style instruction and is an excellent fit for many students. It is extremely thorough with lots of manipulatives and still uses a workbook. It is spiral-based, and has a ton of repetition, plus it would be a simple way to review and get solid in all of the basic math concepts of grades 1-3 -- which is one reason why I suggest it as a possible match for your DS. (The later Saxon levels become much more abstract and rely on memorization of formulas rather than encouraging math thinking, so I don't think those sound like such a good fit for your DS.) You mentioned that DS is a visual learner. Often a visual learner is also a "right brain hemisphere" processor -- or "visual-spatial learner" -- meaning that the student takes in information best/most easily visually, and then processes that information in the brain concretely, randomly, and "whole-to-parts" (intuitively sees the big picture first, and then begins to see how the individual steps and parts contribute to the whole concept). Does this also describe your son? If so, then he'll definitely need a program that turns those abstract math concepts into concrete, tangible facts. Math-U-See is often a good choice for these visual-spatial learners (VSL), but you mentioned that DS doesn't get MUS. Is that just the math facts part he is not getting, or does he not "click" with the way MUS explains things? Or, does DS just not "click" with a mastery-based program? Perhaps your DS needs a more spiral approach to math? Spiral gives the student a little "bite" of instruction in several different math areas each day, contains a lot of review, and then spirals back around later to those concepts for another "bite" of instruction. MUS is a mastery-based program, which incrementally builds up an entire math concept (for example, Delta is largely about division) until that one concept is mastered before moving on to a new math concept. #2 -- memorizing math facts Many students struggle with this; even some adults. A dear friend of mine who is quite bright and tried very hard could never learn math facts, and finally, in high school learned some skip-counting songs, which was the only way she could memorize math facts. If math fact memorization is the only thing tripping up your DS right now as he does MUS (I know they are big on "must memorize facts before moving on"), then consider giving him a chart with the math facts and showing him how to look up what he needs. Then you can figure out what to try to learn math facts (see next paragraph for ideas), but still move on in the math. However, if he ALSO is not getting the math concepts with MUS, then definitely you'll need to deal with that issue FIRST, before worrying about math facts. If your DS is a visual learner, and especially if he is a "right-brained" or VSL, then "drill and kill" will NOT work for memorizing math facts. Try: - skip-counting and math fact songs - triangle flashcards -- they reduce the number of facts to be learned by 75%, AND they 3 connect numbers as "fact families", which is VERY helpful for math-thinking and problem-solving - visual pictures that tell a really crazy/visual story with the math fact embedded in the picture -- pictures with a story go straight to long-term memory! - Flashmaster -- if DS does well with video games, this is a hand-held electronic math-fact drill that may "click" for him At this point, I would suggest thinking through some questions first before just changing math programs. Below are some possible questions to think through to help give you direction. BEST of luck in uncovering what is the BEST solution for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D. - Is there a learning disability or physical issue that needs to be considered first? - Are there other areas of school that are difficult? And if so, does that reveal not only a learning style, but type of brain processing to help direct your decision-making? - Would DS do better with a spiral-based math rather than the mastery-based MUS? - Does DS not connect with the way Steve Demme teaches on the videos? What specifically does he not connect with? - How do you explain the math? In the same way Steve Demme does, or do you also use different methods? What specifically about it doesn't work? - When you tried Right Start and Math Mammoth, did anything help? If so, what? Does that help you pinpoint DS's strengths or weaknesses in learning math? - Is it just math fact memorization that is the problem? - What math concepts does DS NOT "get"? What concepts DOES he "get"? TYPICAL GRADE 1-3 MATH SKILLS (from World Book Encyclopedia "typical course of study") - count, read, write to 1000 - place value - skip counting by 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's and 10's - beginning number line - basic skills with sets and number patterns - concepts of size, quantity, equality/inequality - 1- and 2- digit addition/subtraction - clock and calendar skills - measurement for time, weight, length, volume, shape, temperature - money and making change skills - geometric shapes - basic skills with charts and graphs - positive and negative numbers - beginning word problems - estimation - addition, subtraction, multiplication, division math facts TYPICAL GRADE 4-5 MATH SKILLS (from World Book Encyclopedia "typical course of study") - addition, subtraction, multiplication, division math facts - multiplication, with 1-, 2-, and 3- digits - division, with 2- and 3- digit dividend and 1-digit divisor - prime factoring - finding simple averages - problem-solving methods - charts and graphs Edited January 3, 2012 by Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Wow! to Lori D's post. I definitely agree with getting him checked for problems like LD. Also, how much time are you spending? For my also very visual DS, MUS seemed a very good fit all in all, especially on the understanding side. But not always perfect. DS watches the videos himself. And we use the manipulatives, but not always. Sometimes I explain a different way that I do it, or set up other problems on graph paper. And we are supplementing also with other things: Kumon for not very expensive extra practice, Spectrum ditto, IXL (on line for speed, but more pricey), and Life of Fred came and it is fun and good for the understanding side. I've also looked at Khan Academy for other hints on how to explain things. TT would give someone else to give explanations--you could try sample lessons and see if that is a better fit. Cannot speak to CLE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Wow! to Lori D's post. :iagree: Thanks Lori! We do have eye issues and your post reminded me to make him an appointment (we go next week). The doc did find something not right last year, but because of things out of my control I wasn't given any information and follow up wasn't done. So, we will try this again and make sure to follow through this time since I know now that these issues can effect school work. I could respond to more, but no time. I am pondering over all this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandty Posted January 5, 2012 Author Share Posted January 5, 2012 I wanted to thank everyone for your help with our math problems. After reading post, researching, and praying I think we are going to try a spiral approach to math. I think smaller introductions and better review might help. I just switched my younger DS to Horizon math because he dosen't like to watch the DVD of MUS and loves workbooks. So, I was able to really take a look at the program and understand better how a spiral program works. I also got lots of math books and DVDs at the library to read and watch this week while we wait for our order. I wanted to see if those type of learning tools would help my visual learner. Looking forward to his eye doc appointment to see if that is effecting his school work in anyway. We will go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 One last thought -- consider having DS take a placement test to know where to start him, or if that is not an option, start with the 2nd or 3rd grade math when starting Horizon. That will help: - firm up DS's math foundation by reviewing and reinforcing what DS already understands - give both you AND DS time to get used to the new program with already-understood concepts rather than simultaneously having to learn new concepts - give your DS a real sense of success with math, as he will be starting with material he knows and understands, get good grades, and move quickly through the material BEST of luck -- and may YOU continue to learn more and more what will best help your DS as you research, try a new program, and visit the eye doctor! Warmest regards, Lori D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest snippets Posted January 5, 2012 Share Posted January 5, 2012 My daughter is a right-brained visual learner. Multiplication facts are very difficult for her. What we have been doing, and it is helping, is I give her a worksheet with facts. She is to use a calculator to answer the questions, BUT, she has to say aloud the numbers (facts) as she types them in and looks at them, she has to say the answer aloud too. She is using 3 senses. The more sense you use, the better it gets cemented. They have actually done research on this and it shows it can help. She is a point now where she will work all the problems she knows from memory without using the calculator (because she is proud of how far she has come(, and she has me check it. Then she goes back and uses the calculator to answer those she left blank, and any she missed. She rarely misses any she tries to answer. We have supplemented with TT. She likes it. It tends to be about a grade level below where most other resources would place you. Personally, I like that because it gives her some satisfaction in knowing some things, so she doesn't get totally frustrated. Joyfully, Jackie Mom to a very active teenager who doubles as a bright right-brained learner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.