Onceuponatime Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The bottom line is that I don't want to screw up my kids or lose all my friends or shatter my mother. If I thought none of those things were threatened by what I state I believe or don't believe, then there would be no issue. But they are, so there is. :grouphug: Add seriously disturb dh and that is where I am also. Right now I've decided that noone has traveled my path, they don't know how I got here. They are travelling their own path. I think it is kinder to everyone to leave well enough alone and only voice my opinion on things that really matter in the big picture. There is plenty in the Bible that I can thoroughly support, and there is even plenty that supports me. It's funny how much I see now that I didn't before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denisemomof4 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 The bottom line is that I don't want to screw up my kids or lose all my friends or shatter my mother. If I thought none of those things were threatened by what I state I believe or don't believe, then there would be no issue. But they are, so there is. I can't be anything but upfront and honest with my close friends, and I am not a closed book. My close friends adore me in spite of my loss of faith, but I do have one friend who is still awesome, but sometimes I wonder how much it bothers her. She's never said anything negative, only been encouraging and sweet, but I still wonder about her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venusmom Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 There is a lot of pain conveyed in this thread, confusion, anger, dismay, so much emotion. I am in sort-of a dry place - but I'm not sure it's with my faith - as much as with my church. I can relate to the comments about hypocrites. This is frustrating - but in truth - though I can't seem to find the right church after searching for 6 months (I know it's not long - but I'm so used to being a part of a fellowship) - I know there are hypocrites everywhere. We just hold christians to a higher standard (both christians and non-christians). And to some extent - christians should be held to a higher extent - but on the other hand we live in a fallen world and christians mess up to. I believe God is just. I do believe bad things happen to 'good' people (said tongue in cheek because truly - we are all sinful by our very nature). I also believe good things happen to bad people. I don't necessarily God is closely involved every time we lose our car keys and stuff - but I believe we are sometimes blessed by God in small and large ways. Other times God seems silent to us - but he often did in the bible as well. I imagine Abraham & Sarah waiting till they were 99-101 for God to keep his promise - talk about a dry spell! And I think about all the years Joseph was isolated from his family, thrown into servanthood after having been raised as a favored child, thrown into prison, and so on. Then there is Job...and there are so many others. These are the stories I look at to help me cope with my dry spells. Regarding the sacrifice of Christ - I do believe it was necessary - I can't say I wish it was - I truly wish it wasn't - but I do believe God in His infinite wisdom knew what He was doing. I may be no help - but I am totally feeling a dry spell right now. I guess I wish I understood more of the things I don't. I've rambled on enough - problem with being in this phase is you just feel like you need an answer you don't get. But God has seen me through these before and even revealed His truth to me in a way I never expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I learned the difference between confusion and being convicted. Waiting to be sentenced and being sentenced. :D :lol: Sorry, couldn't resist. Just ignore me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) nm Edited January 3, 2012 by elegantlion too raw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 If it comes to that, then my beliefs are very simplistic. I believe in God, but think Wayne Dyer view or New Age influence. I believe that connecting with God through disciplines gives a person god-like attributes; I have experienced that and it is something I do believe in. I don't believe in much of the structure of any faith system I know of. Yes, I have had many deep crises of faith. Ultimately the above is what lead me to where I am now. My belifes may be a little more defined as in the fact that I do believe in Jesus and the Trinity, but I do not hold to near as much systematic theology as I once did. I spent a few years in some wonderful non-controlling churches. This gave me a chance to really release some unhealthy concepts about God (Grace and Space :001_smile:), but I did not have healthy disciplines to replace the unhealthy ones with. Feeling that hole ultimately led me to seek a way to live out my faith, but with the option of some good structure. My faith will never be as unadulterated as it once was, but I do not know if that is a bad thing. I was overconfident. I thought I had God figured out. When I look back, I know that God loves me and has taken care of me. It just wasn't the way I thought he would do it, and it did not feel like love at the time. This is not something I have licked. I honestly converted because I needed a spiritual system that worked (withstood the test of time), that was balanced, had room for grace, mystery, and did not have the same Pastor/leader type structure I as accustomed to. If it was going to have confession as a part of things I needed to know this was viewed sacramentally and would not be violated. It was a very special bonus to be able to relinquish a view of original sin and fallen mankind, that I never truly held. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 If God is real, he is not the loving God I always thought he was. He abandoned me and ignored my prayers for so long. If he is real, I don't think I could ever have a relationship with him again. I could never trust him again. You cant have a deep meaningful relationship where there is no trust. I definitely believe god makes mistakes if he is real. I hear all the time god wants what is best for us, and that makes me believe even more there is no god. Oh, sweetie. I'm so sorry. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) Okay, so maybe this should have been in my OP, but here's part of my thought on this: could a person be in a permanent "crisis of faith?" Or is that just stupid and maybe they should just declare atheism already. If a person does not believe elements of their faith, how much could that go on and how extensively before it's really beside the point and the person should just concede they are not of that faith system? I think in one of Lee Strobel's books "The Case for..." he says something like a person with doubts is not precluded from being a Christian. But how can we really assume that to be true? If there are Ten central principles to the faith and I disbelieve or seriously doubt seven of them, isn't it sort of moot to say I am "a struggling Christian"? If I believed five of them, five disbelieved, is that any better? Is it elements of the faith a person does not believe or elements of their denomination? ETA: I read further. I see now. Edited January 2, 2012 by Parrothead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Good points, Venusmom. I went through a trial for years. YEARS. It was awful. I couldn't understand why God would let it happen to me and I prayed and prayed for help. It didn't feel like I was getting any help. I have to admit, I got a little angry. What I couldn't see was the bigger picture. God DID have a plan and I just couldn't see it. I did go through a LOT, but in the end, it made me appreciate my life and family members so much more. The problem was 100% taken care of and I know only God could have done that. Every single problem was taken care of and these were huge problems that normally do not go away. I moved to one of the few places in the country that wound up being exactly where I needed to be, even though I had no clue that is what was going on. GOD guided me the WHOLE TIME even when I couldn't see it. Even when I was angry about the whole thing. Even when terrible things were happening. I continued praying and having faith and I am so glad I did. If you are going through a trial and it seems relentless, please keep your faith in God. He is still there, even when you can't feel him. It kind of reminds me of the footprints poem. http://www.footprints-inthe-sand.com/index.php?page=Poem/Poem.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Relieved. I picked "10" out of the air. Some might say it's 13. Some might say 5. I don't know, but here's what I've seen over the years, even many times discussed on this board. People may debate about young earth or old earth or when dinosaurs roamed, but there are a couple of things in Christianity that are the Big Taboos if you say you don't believe it or it's very doubtful. There are things that are the entire point of the Christian faith; if you don't believe them, what do you have? Spirituality maybe, or deism. I am actually okay with that for myself, but many outside people would not be if I said so. That is the only reason I do care. Oksy, so maybe you aren't Christian. Maybe you are Hindu, Jewish, Pagan, Buddhist, or ____. There is nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I still believe in God but I don't think he believes in me. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 If God is real, he is not the loving God I always thought he was. He abandoned me and ignored my prayers for so long. If he is real, I don't think I could ever have a relationship with him again. I could never trust him again. You cant have a deep meaningful relationship where there is no trust. I definitely believe god makes mistakes if he is real. I hear all the time god wants what is best for us, and that makes me believe even more there is no god. :grouphug: I have definetly spent a lot of time feeling like this. My priest asked what it was I feared about God? Did I fear he was going to beat me up? I said, "No. I fear He is going to abandon and ignore me." At that point he related a story about a similar time in his life. I do not feel free to share it, but it was good to not feel alone. Just know you are not alone. I "know" God does not abandon, but I think I define abandonment incorrectly. It always amazes me that the early martyrs did not feel abandoned by God. Maybe that was why I had to go way back in my faith walk. Back to a time when these types of issues were defined differently. Just musing out loud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 This is long, even though I shortened it, and probably doesn't make much sense. Please, if you read it, do not get offended. I am talking about myself Only. Think of me as confused (you'd be right), not malicious. There are a lot of things that don't make sense to me, too. I do not understand God at all at this point. I do not think God helps people find $5 bills, or their car keys or things of that ilk, in ordinary circumstances. Doesn't he have more important matters to attend to than that? IMO, yes! Of course, his idea of what he should be doing and mine probably vastly differ. I think the idea of God as the giver (or finder) of *things* is incorrect. I have heard it from a lot of people - everything from God found my car keys to so-and-so must not be living in God's will because they are poor while the Wonder Christian is obviously doing everything right -- look at the many blessings they have received! I have been told many times, when good things happen, that I must be very special to God. That is ridiculous. One good thing was that my son (born 13 weeks premature; 2 lbs.) did not die the day he was born from something no other premature baby had lived through. Twice in his first month, that son suffered through maladies that the doctors told us during death conferences, meant he would die, 100%. He is nearly 18 years old now. These were true miracle to me at the time, although I felt blessed (still do), not special. Then I started thinking. Where was God when the babies were born 13 weeks early? This is definitely not a Good Thing. Could he not have let them stay in the womb for 32 weeks, or 35, or 40? Where was God when other premature babies in the NICU died? What makes me and my son so special? Nothing! Did we win the God lottery that day? Does God operate that way? I don't think so; at least I hope not. Then the shoe hops to the other foot. Very Bad Events occur, one right after another, and it gets to the point that when my husband calls me, I automatically steel myself to hear about another disaster. What do people say? God is testing your faith. God is disciplining you or pruning you. You should go to church (never mind that I don't think of church as a magic talisman). God never gives you more than you can handle. What do I think? If that is true, then God is sadistic. I do not, btw, think he is. What about something unexpectedly making a person late for an appointment? I have heard that this is because if I had left on time, I might have gotten killed in a car wreck. God saved me from that. Well, what about the person who did get killed? God lottery, again? I believe in God. I do not understand or comprehend him. I do not think people can ever fully know or comprehend God, but I do think I should at least a bit. Sometimes I would like to stop believing in God, to become an atheist. It would be a lot easier, but I cannot do it. I tried last week (secretly b/c I didn't want to say anything that might destroy the faith of others in my family). When I had a heart attack a year ago, I was unconscious during a lot of the time I was in the ER and the cardiac cath lab. At one point, I thought I was moving quickly toward a place of immense peace; I could feel it and I wanted to be there. As I got closer, I remembered my children and fought furiously against it, and I was relinquished. I woke up. Was it brain chemicals or God? I don't know. I do know that I was terrified when I started having the heart attack, out in my driveway, and up until I ended up in ICU, where I was certain I would survive because I was hungry and I thought I was on a regular ward. I wasn't terrified about what was happening to me. I was terrified about leaving my kids without a mother. So maybe it was a story I told myself, or brain chemicals, or something other than God. It is one of the few things I remember between calling an ambulance and landing in ICU, other than frantically begging my kids to post here for prayer. To this day, I believe the prayers of the people here are what saved me. I don't care whether that is rational; God himself would have to tell me in person it wasn't true for me to disbelieve that. Anyway, I am on a quest this year to get my beliefs about God in shape. I want to know what I believe about him, and have it make sense to me. I've already discarded a lot of my former beliefs, which usually made me feel better, but which I no longer believe are true. What then, is true? That is what I want to find out. :iagree:With a lot of what you said. I find that holier than thou attitude annoying and very unChristian. I wish you the best in your search. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I think there are probably a lot of people walking around with this in their head, living a nominally Christian life. And what do you mean by "exclusivity"? The bottom line is that I don't want to screw up my kids or lose all my friends or shatter my mother. If I thought none of those things were threatened by what I state I believe or don't believe, then there would be no issue. But they are, so there is. I dont' think you will screw up your kids by a change in your faith. I think some people do mess up their kids but one has to get into cults and weirdo strange things. It does not sound like you are heading there. If your friends walk away from you because of where your journey leads, were they really friends? I know that sounds trite. But it is true. Many many times I've left a place (moved due to dh's job) and I've had friends swear they would keep in touch, but out of sight is out of mind. And I've always found new friends at the destination. It is difficult, but not impossible. Are you giving your mom enough credit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Yes, I have had many deep crises of faith. Ultimately the above is what lead me to where I am now. My belifes may be a little more defined as in the fact that I do believe in Jesus and the Trinity, but I do not hold to near as much systematic theology as I once did. I spent a few years in some wonderful non-controlling churches. This gave me a chance to really release some unhealthy concepts about God (Grace and Space :001_smile:), but I did not have healthy disciplines to replace the unhealthy ones with. Feeling that hole ultimately led me to seek a way to live out my faith, but with the option of some good structure. My faith will never be as unadulterated as it once was, but I do not know if that is a bad thing. I was overconfident. I thought I had God figured out. When I look back, I know that God loves me and has taken care of me. It just wasn't the way I thought he would do it, and it did not feel like love at the time. This is not something I have licked. I honestly converted because I needed a spiritual system that worked (withstood the test of time), that was balanced, had room for grace, mystery, and did not have the same Pastor/leader type structure I as accustomed to. If it was going to have confession as a part of things I needed to know this was viewed sacramentally and would not be violated. It was a very special bonus to be able to relinquish a view of original sin and fallen mankind, that I never truly held. :grouphug: I was thinking of you yesterday and wanted to tell you how happy I am that you are finally in a good place for you and your family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6packofun Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) The times that I've had a crisis of faith was when I faltered in one of 3 main areas of my faith. I hate to make it prescriptive, but for me 1) prayer, 2) reading God's Word, and (a little less so) 3) worship are like water for my faith. In fact, I'd say that all 3 things practiced personally *and* corporately are important and when I've ignored or given up one or more of these, my faith has gone down the toilet, quite honestly. I'm not one to put huge stock in my emotional experience of faith because I think that God teaches that emotions are ever-changing and unreliable. They are actually dangerous, IMO, because they're so fickle and lead us to create our own image of who God is rather than relying on what He's actually said about Himself. I prefer the source. lol I'm not saying that the emotional by-products of faith are not good, but if they're more than just that, the *result* of what my faith needs to be really authentic (sorry, I know that's sort of a buzzword, but it fits here), then those emotions are like the cheap Christmas bow that loses it's stickiness and keeps falling off the gift (know what I mean?) rather than the frosting on the cake that I get to enjoy with each bite! OK, that was a little cheesy, but maybe point made? LOL So when I'm not in prayer or, especially, not in the Bible regularly (this is the most crucial for me) I begin to start believing my own version of God and how he loves or does not love me, cares for me or does not, etc. and I warp my own faith. As soon as I stop getting the truth from God Himself I stumble. I have to keep the truth at the forefront of my mind--this is how I see "loving God with all your mind", actually. I love Him with all my heart, as well, but one without the other just is NOT enough. This is why I think faiths and even churches that focus too much on emotion and experiential spirituality are not enough for me (or anyone, really, but that's another topic). They put self before truth too often or equate self (how I *feel* about God and the, well, "one thousand gifts" of beautifully worded sentiments that don't actually SAY anything about God Himself) WITH truth. If we can all create our own ideas of God, I don't see the point of grace because we're doing the work of making up a religion apart from the truth He gives us. I'm guilty of doing this when my life starts going really badly. "God must not fill in the blank because it sure doesn't seem like it or feel like it!" Edited January 2, 2012 by 6packofun add Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would really like to quote more of you in this response; there are so many great posts here, I'd like to speak to all of them, but I fell over a chair just a bit ago and now I'm typing with one hand. I hurt my wrist breaking my fall. :glare: I dont' think you will screw up your kids by a change in your faith. I think some people do mess up their kids but one has to get into cults and weirdo strange things. It does not sound like you are heading there. If your friends walk away from you because of where your journey leads, were they really friends? I know that sounds trite. But it is true. Many many times I've left a place (moved due to dh's job) and I've had friends swear they would keep in touch, but out of sight is out of mind. And I've always found new friends at the destination. It is difficult, but not impossible. Are you giving your mom enough credit? Re: my kids: I would put it on par with divorce to re-inform them of my beliefs. We go to church, we pray before meals, all our friends are Christians. I would not want to remove those things from their lives. Also, my friends are frequently the parents of their friends. I know not all my friends would pull back from us, but I have seen enough instances of that to know it happens and I have a good idea of which friends hold inflexibly enough to their beliefs that that matters more than frienship. Course, they are mostly homeschoolers, too, so maybe they are reading this and now know, anyway. ;) Re: mom: We had such a rocky relationship for so long, now that it's fairly pleasant, I really just don't want to poke it. I'm crystal clear that my mom doesn't have decades more and I don't mind so much if she believes things of me that aren't exactly true if it keeps her happy for the time she has left here. I have seen her cry over my sister because my nephews and neices have no faith influence (sister is probably an atheist). I'd rather not give her something else to be distressed about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I would really like to quote more of you in this response; there are so many great posts here, I'd like to speak to all of them, but I fell over a chair just a bit ago and now I'm typing with one hand. I hurt my wrist breaking my fall. :glare: Oh, I'm so sorry. I hope if feels better very soon. Re: my kids: I would put it on par with divorce to re-inform them of my beliefs. We go to church, we pray before meals, all our friends are Christians. I would not want to remove those things from their lives. Also, my friends are frequently the parents of their friends. I know not all my friends would pull back from us, but I have seen enough instances of that to know it happens and I have a good idea of which friends hold inflexibly enough to their beliefs that that matters more than frienship. Course, they are mostly homeschoolers, too, so maybe they are reading this and now know, anyway. ;) Personally, I couldn't live like that. But it is your life and your decision. I'm not being snarky when I say I hope it works for you. :grouphug: Re: mom: We had such a rocky relationship for so long, now that it's fairly pleasant, I really just don't want to poke it. I'm crystal clear that my mom doesn't have decades more and I don't mind so much if she believes things of me that aren't exactly true if it keeps her happy for the time she has left here. I have seen her cry over my sister because my nephews and neices have no faith influence (sister is probably an atheist). I'd rather not give her something else to be distressed about. Okay. I can see why you'd not want to rock that boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CalicoKat Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Unpleasant, unexpected, unwanted circumstances beyond my control or desires...... infertility heart surgery inherited chronic health problems "Why me God?" The tendency of Christian folk's to rationalize that these things have happened to me because of some unseen sin in my personal life. That God is punishing me to bring me to a point of repentance. Rigid, legalistic Christians. "You can't possibly or grow as a Christian because it's so obvious that God is punishing you." The Attributes of God by A.W. Tozer pulled me back from the brink of turning my back on Christianity. Christians have a lot right, but there's something they've mostly forgotton, who God is. I trusted others to tell me about who God was and how He was in my life. When I stopped, did my own study, I found that I hadn't really doubted the one true God afterall. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I've had two crises of faith in my denomination. The first time, I finally decided to shelve the issue because "smart people know about this and still believe, so why shouldn't I?" The second time, I was braver and kept searching and wrestling and eventually left the denomination. Both times, the crisis was brought on by learning historical information about my denomination that did not jive with what I had been taught. I would say that my beliefs now are very similar to yours, but I don't feel in crisis. I am very content to keep working through things. Some days I feel Christian and some days I feel like an agnostic theist. :grouphug: Leaving my denomination had a lot of the family and social issues you are talking about. For me, it was definitely worth it to rip the bandaid off quickly and start rebuilding the relationships based on who I really am. But I have spent enough time on message boards for people going through a faith crisis to know that it doesn't always work out as well for other people as it did for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christy B Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I never put people on pedestals, so to speak, but I came to a point where I was so disillusioned and sick of the hypocrisy about how the churches were run that I walked out. I came to a point where it was nothing but me and God and that was it because that's all I trusted. It was that way for years, while I worked through all of my anger/mourning. 9 years, to be exact. And it wasn't a lukewarm time, it was a time of me throwing everything I had at Him. And I was angry. Very, very, angry. But I learned that if anyone can handle anger, God is it. So, you can call bull*&%$ with God. He can take it. Time is how I moved beyond it. Like a kid growing through stages, I let it all play out. I was in no rush, and I knew God had all the time, so I just went limp, so to speak. And then, I slowly started coming back-and some of those ways weren't brilliant, but they were there, and I learned, so it's all good. I think it can be an excellent thing. I think everyone should ahve them and grow through them. I HATE that they are spoken of as the boogey man of True Faith. Don't believe that they are the end of faith, they can be the beginning of something wonderful. Thank you for sharing this. I'm currently in the very, very angry stage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I could have written this post, CalicoKat! Except that, for me, it was Tozer's Knowledge of the Holy. (And some different trials, but trying nonetheless.) OP, :grouphug: Don't throw in the towel just yet. There are many valleys on this side of heaven; being in the depths of one doesn't always mean that no faith remains. FWIW, being now on the upside of the lowest valley, my faith has a depth that was lacking prior to the challenge of it. Unpleasant, unexpected, unwanted circumstances beyond my control or desires...... infertility heart surgery inherited chronic health problems "Why me God?" The tendency of Christian folk's to rationalize that these things have happened to me because of some unseen sin in my personal life. That God is punishing me to bring me to a point of repentance. Rigid, legalistic Christians. "You can't possibly or grow as a Christian because it's so obvious that God is punishing you." The Attributes of God by A.W. Tozer pulled me back from the brink of turning my back on Christianity. Christians have a lot right, but there's something they've mostly forgotton, who God is. I trusted others to tell me about who God was and how He was in my life. When I stopped, did my own study, I found that I hadn't really doubted the one true God afterall. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irene Lynn Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I have experience a crisis of faith that lasted for 4 years in its darkest form and so far has had 1.5 years slowly walking forward in some fashion or another. It was caused, as most on this thread have been, by the problem of pain. I grew up in the church and was very active all my life, but with one very subtle moment in time my world went blank. No nothing horrible had happened, but it was all inside me. It was as though all my life had been lived in a holodeck (I love Star Trek.) and after a few times of momentary short circuits in the picture, the screen went blank and I woke up to the fact that most of my life hadn't been real. The experiences had kind of, but so much of my life was less than real. It is hard to explain. I could not sense God in any way. Period. Nothing. I went through the desperate, sad, angry, belligerent, completely depressed, daring to ask the heretical questions, and many more emotions and thoughts. At the turning point, I had to ask myself, if there was a God. I think there is. If there is, then does it matter what I want Him to be. What if He were not at all what I had thought? Would that change Him in any way? I have heard many people say that "If god is like xyz, then I won't believe in him!" Well, I wasn't sure how my lack of belief would change anything. If there is a God, then I might as well deal with it, believe that He is and find out about Him. I looked at the idea of faith the size of a mustard seed and wondered how big that seed was and if perhaps half a mustard seed size would be enough. After a while, I realized that I couldn't muster more faith on my own and I couldn't seem to eliminate the last little bit, though I am not sure how much I wanted to do that. Sometimes I wished I could, because I was so tired. Anyway, I let go of many of my expectation of God and just thanked Him for the tiny amount of faith that He had given me. I now view faith as a gift MUCH more strongly than I ever had. Why should I complain, if my gift of faith was tiny. So what?! It was what it was and I would prefer to deal with reality rather than expectations or hopes, dreams, and imagination. I came to the point that I thought, what if nothing ever changes? What if I never have another sense of God? What if my emotions are never healed? What if I loose everything that matters most? What if my worst fears come to pass, then I find out that there was something that I was even more afraid of hiding behind that fear? Was I not going to believe in God, because of my experience? Would that change anything? Was I basing my beliefs on what I wanted or on reality? Perhaps I was even going to "hold God hostage" by saying that I wouldn't believe in Him unless He was at least a little bit the way I wanted Him to be. For me, I just can't look at the world around me and say that it all came to be without God. That is where I started. I chose to stop being angry, but to learn to be thankful for the things that I DO have instead of being so hurt and angry about the things that I don't have. So what, if in matters of faith I didn't have much. I had a wee bit of something. I can finally sing, pray, and read my Bible without getting more angry. :) I still have trouble doing these things, but it is not so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 I think there are probably a lot of people walking around with this in their head, living a nominally Christian life. And what do you mean by "exclusivity"? The bottom line is that I don't want to screw up my kids or lose all my friends or shatter my mother. If I thought none of those things were threatened by what I state I believe or don't believe, then there would be no issue. But they are, so there is. What I mean is that I don't believe in/buy the common, traditional Christian understanding that Jesus is the only way. In spite of the scripture which is likely to be trotted out and cited. I believe the the "Jesus only" doctrine is part of the *human* response to the need for a God; we've ALWAYS defended "our" God as the only, the best, the answer. As for paragraph 2, I "attend" a traditional church for my kids and my DH. As of right now, I know I will not continue to attend after they leave home/lose interest. I just graduated from a *seminary* for goodness sakes, and have kept my heretic views quiet. My tongue hurts. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 What I mean is that I don't believe in/buy the common, traditional Christian understanding that Jesus is the only way. In spite of the scripture which is likely to be trotted out and cited. I believe the the "Jesus only" doctrine is part of the *human* response to the need for a God; we've ALWAYS defended "our" God as the only, the best, the answer. As for paragraph 2, I "attend" a traditional church for my kids and my DH. As of right now, I know I will not continue to attend after they leave home/lose interest. I just graduated from a *seminary* for goodness sakes, and have kept my heretic views quiet. My tongue hurts. :lol: Oh, okay, gotcha. Look: twins! ;) That bugged me way back in my early 20's, then I pushed it away in my fervent 30's, but it came back with my new wave of disbelief. I bet your tongue hurts. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Don't throw in the towel just yet. There are many valleys on this side of heaven; being in the depths of one doesn't always mean that no faith remains. AuntieM, I always have such regard for what you have to say. I even have a quote from you on a sticky by my bathroom mirror. But, it's more that I'm thinking I keep trying to put a square peg in a round hole and why do I keep trying to make it fit? It's not insignificant that I'm coming to a head on this at the beginning of a new year. I have a strong sense of positive from "2012". Even just looking at that date gives me a very good vibe. Sounds weird, but seriously - I feel like I'm at a rebirth where I'm ready to be a way better version of me, but I need to get the ashes out of my mouth first. I've just grown super-tired of "trying" to be a Christian. If I'm not, if I don't meet the threshold for faith there, it makes more sense to just see the facts as they are. It's not really that no faith remains, it's that it's becoming something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ereks mom Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) I came to the point that I thought, what if nothing ever changes? What if I never have another sense of God? What if my emotions are never healed? What if I loose everything that matters most? What if my worst fears come to pass, then I find out that there was something that I was even more afraid of hiding behind that fear? Was I not going to believe in God, because of my experience? Would that change anything? I think this perfectly defines "crisis of faith". It is when you are faced with circumstances in your life that force you to decide, "Will I believe, no matter what?" From my observations (and personal experience as well), you experience a crisis of faith when you come to the realization that God is not who you thought He was. One person might determine that he had an incomplete understanding, possibly because he himself was mistaken, and that more prayer and Bible study will further refine his concept of God. And he will continue to believe. Another person, however, will decide that his imperfect concept of God is God's fault for not revealing Himself and His will, and maybe that God is a liar anyway. This person becomes angry at God and refuses to pray or read his Bible. He may choose to stop trusting God, even doubting the His very existence. Edited January 2, 2012 by ereks mom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milovany Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) :grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: I have not experienced what would be termed a "crisis of faith," I don't think, but I have been faced with a faith-altering realization that what I believed about God, and what worshiping Him looked like, changed dramatically (I was and am a Christian, but what I believed and how I practiced the faith was in some ways doing an almost complete 180). At the time, I was concerned that I was going a little loco, but I couldn't let go of what I was being faced with at church and in my inner understanding of God. Instead of me being loco, and going down the "wrong" path away from a saving faith, this turning turned out to be the answer to a lot of the gnawing I'd had in my gut about Christ and the Church that I'd been having for some time and into a more life-giving "salvation." Salvation became more of a living reality, something happening both within me as I become united with Christ over time, and outside of me as I began being able to see and touch faith. I have no idea if this makes sense, I'm trying to stay general so as to answer the question and not go off on my own soapbox (which I'm prone to do). Basically, I needed and wanted to get God out of my brain, out of my own understanding, out of my personal experience; I didn't want to be the one defining God. I needed God to be God His way, completely independent of me (while still knowing it was all because of His love that He sought me), and in looking for God this way, I have found the most beautiful, loving expression of faith I've ever known. May you find God in the journey, Quill! Edited January 3, 2012 by milovaný Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Relieved. I picked "10" out of the air. Some might say it's 13. Some might say 5. I don't know, but here's what I've seen over the years, even many times discussed on this board. People may debate about young earth or old earth or when dinosaurs roamed, but there are a couple of things in Christianity that are the Big Taboos if you say you don't believe it or it's very doubtful. There are things that are the entire point of the Christian faith; if you don't believe them, what do you have? Spirituality maybe, or deism. I am actually okay with that for myself, but many outside people would not be if I said so. That is the only reason I do care. Taking the belief net quiz is like googling symptoms. :D I never come up RCC, and yet I'm so deeply happy and fulfilled there-now. I wasn't kidding when I said I believed in God alone. No trinity, not a Jesus as divine and human, I thought the bible was written by a bunch of hucksters. I might have been called a Deist back then? I don't know, I didn't think much about it. I lost a lot of friends, but you know what? Apparently they were very fake friends. And, when I see them now? They look at me with disdain, tolerate me, and give me those pat, Christianese lines. If you leave, just know that there will be mourning. Friends will fall by the wayside, life will change, but in many ways, it will get better. You'll be living truthfully, which is much more valuable. It's a much more honest foundation to build on-whatever you build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 My crisis of faith came when I decided that the church we belonged to didn't contain God, at least not a God I wanted to worship. I didn't really even like the people and was tired of pretending. But instead of changing churches, I decided that God wasn't for me. The only representation I had of God was from that denomination, and I wont name it, but it is large and well known, so I figured that there was either something wrong with me, or that God wasn't real. I actually went back and forth for a long time that if God was real I was going to hell for not being the right kind of a Christian, or it was all a farce. No middle ground, sadly. It was so bad that when I first came to these boards and homeschooling, anything they wasn't 100% secular wasn't for us because I assumed that Christian meant what I considered hateful. And I didn't have much use or respect for anyone here that declared their faith in their material choices, signatures, or blogs. I came back to my faith, but haven't found a church yet, one toe at a time, when my father was dying of liver cancer. I didn't want faith because it felt like a bribe to see him in heaven and that just pissed me off, but I realized they I was fighting and arguing with God so I still believed. Then I felt like it was okay to argue with him and I should have done that sooner. I am an irreverent Christian and he loves me anyway. Once I got out of my head about how I had to behave for him to love me, I could love him back. I always felt and sometimes still do that his love was conditional, that certain things happened because he was punishing me and that he was vengeful instead of loving. But I am more at peace and finding my way back slowly. I am also looking for a home church, and reading and praying more. I will never again let a church define God for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In2why Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Crises of faith means so many things, but one that I would consider is that God is leading you into closer union with him by knowing him as he truly is and sometimes that involves a change. Most give great credence to man's understanding and are not of God. This is a limited view because of your mental set. I would agree with the person, however not because one was especially protected and another not, but because it was simply God's will that one person be given more time or not experience a particular event because more time or other experiences would bring him to greater union with him. And sometimes, time is just up. I know what you're talking about, however, and spent a good part of my late 20s in the new age movement. I also have a really hard time with the idea that things are just "God's will" how does that explain a child being tortured, raped, and mutilated. There cannot be greater good in there, and make it all okay. Another example I find often in adoption is that it was meant to be. Uhhh. Okay a child had to be abused and abandoned so that someone else could become parents.........no thank you! I can hear the conditioning in my head, I used to parrot it. We cant understands Gods divine purpose because we are humans with human understanding, but I am like the pp who said they would turn their back on God, I wouldn't want a God who controlled those events and let them happen for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I also have a really hard time with the idea that things are just "God's will" how does that explain a child being tortured, raped, and mutilated. There cannot be greater good in there, and make it all okay. Another example I find often in adoption is that it was meant to be. Uhhh. Okay a child had to be abused and abandoned so that someone else could become parents.........no thank you! I can hear the conditioning in my head, I used to parrot it. We cant understands Gods divine purpose because we are humans with human understanding, but I am like the pp who said they would turn their back on God, I wouldn't want a God who controlled those events and let them happen for whatever reason. :iagree: I so agree. Faith is a constant, overwhelming struggle for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Taking the belief net quiz is like googling symptoms. :D I never come up RCC, and yet I'm so deeply happy and fulfilled there-now. I wasn't kidding when I said I believed in God alone. No trinity, not a Jesus as divine and human, I thought the bible was written by a bunch of hucksters. I might have been called a Deist back then? I don't know, I didn't think much about it. I lost a lot of friends, but you know what? Apparently they were very fake friends. And, when I see them now? They look at me with disdain, tolerate me, and give me those pat, Christianese lines. If you leave, just know that there will be mourning. Friends will fall by the wayside, life will change, but in many ways, it will get better. You'll be living truthfully, which is much more valuable. It's a much more honest foundation to build on-whatever you build. Thanks for that. It's food for thought, though I have some big concerns that go beyond just losing a few fair-weather friends. There are some boats I really need to not rock for the time being. The aftershocks would hurt everyone I care about and that feels selfish to me - that I need to air my beliefs so I will be snug and comfy. I don't want that to be the case. Nothing horrible will happen if I sit in a pew at church and occassionally mentally disagree, kwim? I also have a really hard time with the idea that things are just "God's will" how does that explain a child being tortured, raped, and mutilated. There cannot be greater good in there, and make it all okay. Another example I find often in adoption is that it was meant to be. Uhhh. Okay a child had to be abused and abandoned so that someone else could become parents.........no thank you! I can hear the conditioning in my head, I used to parrot it. We cant understands Gods divine purpose because we are humans with human understanding, but I am like the pp who said they would turn their back on God, I wouldn't want a God who controlled those events and let them happen for whatever reason. I'm with you. All elements of, "This bad thing has to happen because God sees the bigger picture" are totally repugnant to me. The Divine Love I've experienced would never support that. I see the love a parent has for their child as being the closest thing we humans can glimpse of what Divine Love is. Any parent who loves their child protects them unequivocally from all harm they can foresee that is in their power to change. It does not make sense to me that Divine Love would "allow" (nevermind "intend") harm on any being so that XYZ can turn out. God cannot be anything to me but infinitely loving and that precludes allowing or prescribing harm to befall anyone for some supposed "greater purpose." It just plain does not wash with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I'm with you. All elements of, "This bad thing has to happen because God sees the bigger picture" are totally repugnant to me. The Divine Love I've experienced would never support that. I see the love a parent has for their child as being the closest thing we humans can glimpse of what Divine Love is. Any parent who loves their child protects them unequivocally from all harm they can foresee that is in their power to change. It does not make sense to me that Divine Love would "allow" (nevermind "intend") harm on any being so that XYZ can turn out. God cannot be anything to me but infinitely loving and that precludes allowing or prescribing harm to befall anyone for some supposed "greater purpose." It just plain does not wash with me. I totally agree with the bolded. I want to say something here, but it's probably exactly what a lot of the people here are complaining about, and I don't want to make anyone feel hurt or judged. The thing is, I think it's relevant to the discussion, so I'm going to take a deep breath and just say it, and hope that those who are irritated by it might have the kindness to just roll their eyes at me and get on with life rather than jumping down my throat. So here it is. I think sometimes things parents do to their kids, or allow to be done to their kids really are for the child's own ultimate good, even though the child can't see it that way while it's happening because it's nightmarishly frightening or painful. Surgery and dental work, for example. Or on a less dramatic level, eating vegetables they don't like or taking nasty tasting medicine. My son has said to me, "If you really loved me you would not make me do math." But really, the reason I am willing to sit there and stubborn it out with him is because math is for his own best ultimate good. When I first went away to college 2000 miles from where I grew up, it was quite a culture shock. The landscape was completely different, the customs were different and I found that I occasionally offended people without knowing why (like, where I grew up it was just good manners to offer to help in the kitchen when invited to dinner, but where I went to college that was perceived as a negative comment on the cook's competence--I didn't know), the names of the stores were different (so I had a hard time finding a drug store when I needed one), the climate was vastly different, the architecture was different, I kept getting lost because there were no mountains to take my direction from, and the accent was sufficiently different that half the time I couldn't tell what half the people were even saying to me. I was HORRIBLY homesick, to the point where it made me feel physically ill. I told my parents I'd made a horrible mistake and I wanted to go home and attend the state college that had offered me a scholarship instead. They basically told me they weren't paying for a plane ticket until Christmas. I thought they really didn't understand just how in over my head I really was, and it hurt that they wouldn't step in and rescue me. It wasn't like I wanted to drop out of college, I just wanted to do college in a way I would actually SUCCEED. I now know how hard it was for my mom not to just come get me and take me home, and that she was suffering right along with me, but I didn't know that then, she just seemed cheap and hard-hearted. In the end I adjusted and I'm very grateful she didn't let me off the hook because I learned a LOT of things that had nothing to do with academics because I went to school where I did. I don't know why ALL the bad things happen, and I'm not going to claim I do. I do think some of it really is to help us grow into better people, or to push our perceived limits so that we come to better understand what we're really made of. I sometimes think that some of it is allowed to happen so that the perpetrator will have truly earned his eternal punishment and won't be able to use "I wouldn't have really gone through with it even if you hadn't stopped me" as an excuse because the fact is that he didn't stop, and nobody can argue that his torment is unjust (in these cases, I think God compensates the victims in other ways). And I do think that some of it has to do with the interweaving of other people's dramas that goes on around us where we can't see the big picture, and they're not as random as they seem to us, over in our own little corner. Some of it, in my opinion, is just a factor of mortal life--"stuff happens" as they say--and God wants us to have the full experience because otherwise we would not gain the perspective we were sent here to gain. But then, some of my beliefs about how and why we're here are very "non-standard" compared to mainstream Christianity--I view this life as the second in a three-act play, so to speak, where all the poop hits the fan and the real character development takes place, but you know there was stuff that happened before, and stuff that will happen after, and no matter how dark things look for our hero, it will all work out in the end. And some of it, I don't know why it happens. I don't get it either, and I fully intend to ask God for an explanation someday (and I think He's the kind of guy who'll give me one). But I can't agree that a loving God would NEVER allow anything unhappy or painful to happen to people for ANY reason, just like I can't agree that a loving parent would NEVER require her child to have surgery to repair a defective kidney, or a root canal procedure to prevent future infection. Right now I'm tormenting my son by making him wear braces, even though he has some serious oral tactile sensitivities, and he does not believe me when I tell him that if I didn't make him have braces his teeth would wear unevenly and the dental work he'd need in the future would be even more miserable than wearing braces. But that's ok, because I know, and I'm willing to put up with the incessant moaning, and arguing, and criticizing, and yelling about how if I really loved him I would never put him through the torture of braces, ESPECIALLY under his personal sensory circumstances. It's not fair. It's not nice. It's not fun. It's not what he planned on. And BECAUSE I agree that the love of a parent is the closest thing we can experience to the love of God for us, I can't agree that God would never allow us to feel that way. I know I have gone through periods when I was really angry with God over my infertility issues (and honestly, I think God is enough of a grown-up to handle angry children), but looking back I can now admit that the 5 year gap between ds and dd was a VERY good thing--for ds, for my own sanity, and for dd when she came along. It really was the best plan, and my 2-3 year gap plan would have probably had all kinds of moderately disastrous results with those two particular kids. And they're AMAZING kids, I would not trade them in for a more tame experience with more "normal" kids and a smaller gap between. Even taking the heartache into consideration. Anyway, no, I don't know why God does what He does, or allows what He allows all the time, but I don't think it's as simple, as if God really loved us he would never allow anything painful or difficult to occur in our lives. I just really don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I totally agree with the bolded. I want to say something here, but it's probably exactly what a lot of the people here are complaining about, and I don't want to make anyone feel hurt or judged. The thing is, I think it's relevant to the discussion, so I'm going to take a deep breath and just say it, and hope that those who are irritated by it might have the kindness to just roll their eyes at me and get on with life rather than jumping down my throat. So here it is. I think sometimes things parents do to their kids, or allow to be done to their kids really are for the child's own ultimate good, even though the child can't see it that way while it's happening because it's nightmarishly frightening or painful. Surgery and dental work, for example. Or on a less dramatic level, eating vegetables they don't like or taking nasty tasting medicine. My son has said to me, "If you really loved me you would not make me do math." But really, the reason I am willing to sit there and stubborn it out with him is because math is for his own best ultimate good. When I first went away to college 2000 miles from where I grew up, it was quite a culture shock. The landscape was completely different, the customs were different and I found that I occasionally offended people without knowing why (like, where I grew up it was just good manners to offer to help in the kitchen when invited to dinner, but where I went to college that was perceived as a negative comment on the cook's competence--I didn't know), the names of the stores were different (so I had a hard time finding a drug store when I needed one), the climate was vastly different, the architecture was different, I kept getting lost because there were no mountains to take my direction from, and the accent was sufficiently different that half the time I couldn't tell what half the people were even saying to me. I was HORRIBLY homesick, to the point where it made me feel physically ill. I told my parents I'd made a horrible mistake and I wanted to go home and attend the state college that had offered me a scholarship instead. They basically told me they weren't paying for a plane ticket until Christmas. I thought they really didn't understand just how in over my head I really was, and it hurt that they wouldn't step in and rescue me. It wasn't like I wanted to drop out of college, I just wanted to do college in a way I would actually SUCCEED. I now know how hard it was for my mom not to just come get me and take me home, and that she was suffering right along with me, but I didn't know that then, she just seemed cheap and hard-hearted. In the end I adjusted and I'm very grateful she didn't let me off the hook because I learned a LOT of things that had nothing to do with academics because I went to school where I did. I don't know why ALL the bad things happen, and I'm not going to claim I do. I do think some of it really is to help us grow into better people, or to push our perceived limits so that we come to better understand what we're really made of. I sometimes think that some of it is allowed to happen so that the perpetrator will have truly earned his eternal punishment and won't be able to use "I wouldn't have really gone through with it even if you hadn't stopped me" as an excuse because the fact is that he didn't stop, and nobody can argue that his torment is unjust (in these cases, I think God compensates the victims in other ways). And I do think that some of it has to do with the interweaving of other people's dramas that goes on around us where we can't see the big picture, and they're not as random as they seem to us, over in our own little corner. Some of it, in my opinion, is just a factor of mortal life--"stuff happens" as they say--and God wants us to have the full experience because otherwise we would not gain the perspective we were sent here to gain. But then, some of my beliefs about how and why we're here are very "non-standard" compared to mainstream Christianity--I view this life as the second in a three-act play, so to speak, where all the poop hits the fan and the real character development takes place, but you know there was stuff that happened before, and stuff that will happen after, and no matter how dark things look for our hero, it will all work out in the end. And some of it, I don't know why it happens. I don't get it either, and I fully intend to ask God for an explanation someday (and I think He's the kind of guy who'll give me one). But I can't agree that a loving God would NEVER allow anything unhappy or painful to happen to people for ANY reason, just like I can't agree that a loving parent would NEVER require her child to have surgery to repair a defective kidney, or a root canal procedure to prevent future infection. Right now I'm tormenting my son by making him wear braces, even though he has some serious oral tactile sensitivities, and he does not believe me when I tell him that if I didn't make him have braces his teeth would wear unevenly and the dental work he'd need in the future would be even more miserable than wearing braces. But that's ok, because I know, and I'm willing to put up with the incessant moaning, and arguing, and criticizing, and yelling about how if I really loved him I would never put him through the torture of braces, ESPECIALLY under his personal sensory circumstances. It's not fair. It's not nice. It's not fun. It's not what he planned on. And BECAUSE I agree that the love of a parent is the closest thing we can experience to the love of God for us, I can't agree that God would never allow us to feel that way. I know I have gone through periods when I was really angry with God over my infertility issues (and honestly, I think God is enough of a grown-up to handle angry children), but looking back I can now admit that the 5 year gap between ds and dd was a VERY good thing--for ds, for my own sanity, and for dd when she came along. It really was the best plan, and my 2-3 year gap plan would have probably had all kinds of moderately disastrous results with those two particular kids. And they're AMAZING kids, I would not trade them in for a more tame experience with more "normal" kids and a smaller gap between. Even taking the heartache into consideration. Anyway, no, I don't know why God does what He does, or allows what He allows all the time, but I don't think it's as simple, as if God really loved us he would never allow anything painful or difficult to occur in our lives. I just really don't. MamaSheep, I totally appreciate your well-thought-out post and in no way do I want to seem to attack you as a response. With that said, I am very familiar with the analogies you're making, but it's still something I don't buy into. Yes, I agree that a loving parent does sometimes need to inflict pain (vaccinations, dental correction, surgery, medicine, even some emotional pain as you spoke about your college experience) in order for the child to grow up healthy, well and emotionally developed. But some of what happens in the world is truly illogical from that standpoint; it's just a senseless tragedy or a horrible injustice. If your child were kidnapped, raped, dismembered and sunk into the river, would there be any "good reason" that would ever be adequate for you? I could agree that, say, a husband's loss of job could be a blessing in disguise, as perhaps he gets a much better job or other unexpected outcomes make it obvious that this was "good" and not "bad" as it originally appeared. But the same could not be said for genocide. Or Nagasaki. Or whatever other horrors you could observe in the world. I have to conclude that God is not intimately involved with all of those things, because letting them happen (or "predestining" them to happen) does not justify whatever good may come of it. Again - the analogy works for smaller disappointments, but not for zero-sum horrors. The glaring fact remains that some people have their prayers "answered" (code for they get what they want) while others never see their prayers answered. Do I think God healed Betty's baby, who was diagnosed in utero with a fatal birth defect, but then was born in perfect health? If he did, why would he "allow" my baby who was perfectly healthy in utero to die on the day of her birth? Both were prayed for. I do not accept that there was some "greater purpose" that makes it okay for my baby to die while another baby lives, presumably because that serves a "greater purpose" also. Did losing my daughter bring some "good" into my life that would never have happened otherwise? Yes. I am a far more developed person in some ways that I don't think is possible if you haven't been there yourself. But if it were possible to take back the past and remake it, I would not trade my daughter's life for whatever "good" or personal development I experienced from going through that awful experience. How much moreso would some others feel the same who have been through greater horrors than mine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mama2cntrykids Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I go through dry spells when I get casual in my personal prayers and scripture study. If I do not pray and read daily, things just start falling apart in all areas in my life... spiritually im not feelin it, I get grumpy, distracted by trivial things, I lose perspective of my priorities, I get selfish, and I start doubting. I come back to my senses when I start praying and studying the scriptures again. Faith is like a tree. You have to continue to water it for it to grow and stay alive. When you stop watering, it begins to whither and will eventually die. The longer you've gone w/o water, the longer it takes to get your faith back on track. Hth! :iagree::iagree:This is ME! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If God is real, he is not the loving God I always thought he was. He abandoned me and ignored my prayers for so long. If he is real, I don't think I could ever have a relationship with him again. I could never trust him again. You cant have a deep meaningful relationship where there is no trust. I definitely believe god makes mistakes if he is real. I hear all the time god wants what is best for us, and that makes me believe even more there is no god. I hear you and have thought the same thing at times in my life. At the risk of being accused of being a heretic, I don't think God wants the best for us-on earth. Yes, in the long run, to be with God eternally is the best for us. But during our time on earth, nowhere in the Bible does it say that we get to have a happy, painfree life. Jesus didn't. His disciples didn't either. I know that the times when I feel farthest away from God come when I take my eyes off of Him and the spiritual realm and put them squarely on earthly things and the physical world. I do wish the the church-especially the American church- would quit trying to convince Christians that God wants us to have all we want on this earth and an easy life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela in ohio Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The catalyst was a horrible church experience. We (dh and I went through it together) got through it by prayer, reading the Bible, and the love of some true friends. We can now look back and see that God was saving us from something awful and bringing us to a better place, but at the time it felt like being ripped into a million pieces. We know that we were resistant to see some obvious things, so God had to make them even more painfully obvious to us before we would figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I'm with you. All elements of, "This bad thing has to happen because God sees the bigger picture" are totally repugnant to me. The Divine Love I've experienced would never support that. ... but infinitely loving and that precludes allowing or prescribing harm to befall anyone for some supposed "greater purpose." It just plain does not wash with me. :iagree:Evil and suffering are a part of human life. God does not cause pain, but he is with us us in our pain. Although sometimes we can't see or feel him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 MamaSheep, I totally appreciate your well-thought-out post and in no way do I want to seem to attack you as a response. With that said, I am very familiar with the analogies you're making, but it's still something I don't buy into. Yes, I agree that a loving parent does sometimes need to inflict pain (vaccinations, dental correction, surgery, medicine, even some emotional pain as you spoke about your college experience) in order for the child to grow up healthy, well and emotionally developed. But some of what happens in the world is truly illogical from that standpoint; it's just a senseless tragedy or a horrible injustice. If your child were kidnapped, raped, dismembered and sunk into the river, would there be any "good reason" that would ever be adequate for you? I could agree that, say, a husband's loss of job could be a blessing in disguise, as perhaps he gets a much better job or other unexpected outcomes make it obvious that this was "good" and not "bad" as it originally appeared. But the same could not be said for genocide. Or Nagasaki. Or whatever other horrors you could observe in the world. I have to conclude that God is not intimately involved with all of those things, because letting them happen (or "predestining" them to happen) does not justify whatever good may come of it. Again - the analogy works for smaller disappointments, but not for zero-sum horrors. The glaring fact remains that some people have their prayers "answered" (code for they get what they want) while others never see their prayers answered. Do I think God healed Betty's baby, who was diagnosed in utero with a fatal birth defect, but then was born in perfect health? If he did, why would he "allow" my baby who was perfectly healthy in utero to die on the day of her birth? Both were prayed for. I do not accept that there was some "greater purpose" that makes it okay for my baby to die while another baby lives, presumably because that serves a "greater purpose" also. Did losing my daughter bring some "good" into my life that would never have happened otherwise? Yes. I am a far more developed person in some ways that I don't think is possible if you haven't been there yourself. But if it were possible to take back the past and remake it, I would not trade my daughter's life for whatever "good" or personal development I experienced from going through that awful experience. How much moreso would some others feel the same who have been through greater horrors than mine? Well, as I say I don't have all the answers, and I'm not going to pretend to. I don't think everything bad that happens is "for our own good" or "so that XYZ can happen". In fact, I don't think there IS one single easy explanation for every bad thing that ever happened. I think both life and God are a whole lot more complex than that. I just think that saying that if God were real nothing bad (from our perspective) would ever happen is a vast oversimplification. And I also think it carries assumptions that just don't ring true for me, like that the reason we're here, the purpose of this life, is for us to be happy and comfortable, and that if we're not, something has gone haywire. I just don't think that is the case. I see life partly as an educative experience, partly as a "test", if you will, partly as a refiner's fire. And although I think we each have a personalized experience here that pushes us to our own specific limits and beyond, I also think there's a complex interweaving in which we also have parts to play in the dramas of people we come into contact with. Some of the experiences we have are for our benefit, some for the benefit of others. Some are a refiner's fire that burns away parts of them that they may be attached to, but ultimately will be better people for having lost, even in a painful way. Some aren't for anybody's benefit, they're the result of someone "failing" their "test"--sometimes spectacularly so. But I think the "tests" all have to play out, pass or fail, in order for the results to be valid. I do think that God often uses even those failures to refine and test some of the people involved (some people who came out of the concentration camps are INCREDIBLE people--not that I'd wish that on anybody)--it's not so much what happens TO us, but how we respond that really matters. I think we can count on something(s) happening to us that really pushes our limits, and even changes them--things that make us or break us (and I think we get to be the ones to decide which of those it will be). How do you learn, how do you find out what you're made of, if you're never really challenged? This is a board where people go out of their way to find challenging, rigorous educational materials for their kids. We do it to them on purpose because we know they have it in them, and that it will push them to a higher level of achievement than an easy, "comfortable" educational experience. And honestly, I think God does the same thing. I don't think this life is elementary level education, I think it's beyond post-graduate stuff. I think he gives us really hard "questions" to make us really think about the "answers". I think he puts us in "impossible" situations to help us really understand the breadth and depth and taste of good and of evil. I think he wants these things to be real and tangible and concrete to us at a level of detail that we will never, ever forget. I think God has work for us after this life that requires a high level of personal understanding of the consequences of "failure" and the determination and strength to succeed. I think we've moved beyond the point where theoretical suffering is educational enough to get us where we need to be in order to do what is coming next. I don't think this life is ABOUT this life, I think it's ABOUT what comes after. And I believe there IS an "after", and that God knows a whole lot more about it than I do. I also think that because of this God views death differently than we do. We tend to view death as a terrible thing--as the end of all possibility and love and light and laughter and life. I don't think God sees it that way. I think God sees death as a transition to a temporary state of being. For that matter, I think God sees BIRTH as a transition to a temporary state of being. I think that in God's mind our "normal" condition is as immortal, resurrected beings, and that this life is part of the process of getting us there properly educated. If those who leave here go somewhere "better", then why is it so horrible for people to die? Even if it's a painful death (and honestly I think God is right there with each person, how could a loving parent NOT be) it's only a spark of a moment in a vast eternity. It's an important spark, and not something we'd be likely to ever forget, but I think that's part of the point. We're not supposed to forget. We're supposed to "become" through the things that happen to us. I do think that KILLING people is horrific. I think that's a "failure", and people who are involved in things like genocide and murder (and rape, and other things too) will enter eternity with some serious restrictions on their ability to act--not to mention I fully believe a just God will exact full "payment" for their crimes, and will let their victims be in on deciding their fate. And I think that those who have proven that they have an intimate understanding of good and evil and can learn to choose good (even if the lessons must continue on after this life) will receive power to act that is beyond anything we can conceive here and now. But I think God is training us and testing us and making sure those who receive that kind of power would never, ever abuse it. Do I know why one person's prayer is answered the way they want it (I think all prayers are answered) and other people's aren't? No, I don't. But I don't think that getting everything we want when we want it, how we want it is the POINT of life. In fact, I think that would DEFEAT the purpose of life. Do I know why a healthy baby might die before birth? No, I don't. Though I do think that one implication of a literal bodily resurrection is that mothers will be able to raise their babies that die in infancy, and that the separation, though obviously painful, is temporary. I very much look forward to meeting an older brother of mine who is waiting on the other side. And I think "Jesus as Sacrifice" made this possible. Do I know why one person might die in an accident while another might walk away? No, I can only speculate. But I don't think it's arbitrary. There are a lot of things I don't understand, like quantum physics--but that doesn't mean those things aren't "real" or aren't "undertandable", it only means I haven't learned it yet. Can I imagine anything that could compensate for some of the horrors we see in this life? I don't think that in this life there is a compensation for some of those things, no. But I don't think this life is all there is, and I don't think God is limited to compensations I can imagine. I just don't have that great of an imagination. I dunno...I don't want to attack anyone's beliefs either, and I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you have to believe what I do. I just think it's a lot more complicated a proposition than "if God were real nothing bad would ever happen"--I just don't buy it. It's just not that "simple" a question. And it's not that "easy" an answer. At least, not for me. And that's mostly what I wanted to say. I do hope you find the answers you're looking for. And I hope expressing my opinion hasn't made you hate me. I just...I dunno. It's something I feel pretty strongly about. And I know you do too. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 (edited) nm Edited January 3, 2012 by elegantlion decided against. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yeah, I get that, but if I take out things I don't believe, I don't have a denomination. I've done the BeliefNet quiz a couple of times. I always come out as Unitarian Universalist or Liberal Quaker, which to me, both translate to "churches where you can believe whatever the heck you want and you go for coffee and nice music." ;) Belief-O-Matic gave me the same answers - even though I was sure it'd confirm my atheism. ;) Here are a couple of books to investigate Liberal Quakers, one old-fashioned and one definitely not. btw- they don't typically have music. They sit quietly and listen, and nobody leads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I dunno...I don't want to attack anyone's beliefs either, and I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you have to believe what I do. I just think it's a lot more complicated a proposition than "if God were real nothing bad would ever happen"--I just don't buy it. It's just not that "simple" a question. And it's not that "easy" an answer. At least, not for me. And that's mostly what I wanted to say. I do hope you find the answers you're looking for. And I hope expressing my opinion hasn't made you hate me. I just...I dunno. It's something I feel pretty strongly about. And I know you do too. MamaSheep, clearly we will not come to agreement on this issue, so there's no sense beating the subject to death. But I do want to clarify that in no way do I think our lives should be continuously comfortable and happy. Most humans on earth throughout history have not enjoyed remotely the scope of continuous health and happiness a typical westerner enjoys in one day. So, I am not saying that if ANY misery exists, God isn't true. But I see a strange paradox among Christians; they say that God has no obligation to answer your prayers the way you want, yet they continue to pray with the hope they will be. If it's their baby who is sick, of course they want the baby to be healed; it is a rare person who could honestly pray "Not my will, but Thine be done" when the stakes are truly high. And of course your opinion doesn't make me "hate" you. My hate threshold is way higher than that. ;) I know you're not talking out of your hat and have suffered some serious disappointments. If you can still see that as part of God's purposes, more power to you. I just don't feel similarly. Belief-O-Matic gave me the same answers - even though I was sure it'd confirm my atheism. ;) Here are a couple of books to investigate Liberal Quakers, one old-fashioned and one definitely not. btw- they don't typically have music. They sit quietly and listen, and nobody leads. That sounds like a really nice meeting to me. I like quiet. One of the best "spiritual experiences" I've had happened during a (Christian) retreat. There was a prescribed hour where we were to be silent and worship in silence however we desired. i sat out in the woods under the towering pine trees and just meditated on Love. That one hour of silent meditation was more fulfilling than any other countless hours I've spent in church services or classes. I felt so incredibly serene. I didn't want it to end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karen in CO Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 That sounds like a really nice meeting to me. I like quiet. One of the best "spiritual experiences" I've had happened during a (Christian) retreat. There was a prescribed hour where we were to be silent and worship in silence however we desired. i sat out in the woods under the towering pine trees and just meditated on Love. That one hour of silent meditation was more fulfilling than any other countless hours I've spent in church services or classes. I felt so incredibly serene. I didn't want it to end. You would probably like a Liberal Quaker meeting. They actually sit quietly for an hour. If someone feels like sharing something meaningful, they do. If no one feels like sharing, they just sit quietly. In the local meeting here, maybe 15 minutes of the hour is spent with a person or two sharing, and the rest is spent in silent worship and "listening for the Light." It is the most peaceful hour I could ever hope to spend in "church." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 MamaSheep, clearly we will not come to agreement on this issue, so there's no sense beating the subject to death. But I do want to clarify that in no way do I think our lives should be continuously comfortable and happy. Most humans on earth throughout history have not enjoyed remotely the scope of continuous health and happiness a typical westerner enjoys in one day. So, I am not saying that if ANY misery exists, God isn't true. But I see a strange paradox among Christians; they say that God has no obligation to answer your prayers the way you want, yet they continue to pray with the hope they will be. If it's their baby who is sick, of course they want the baby to be healed; it is a rare person who could honestly pray "Not my will, but Thine be done" when the stakes are truly high. And of course your opinion doesn't make me "hate" you. My hate threshold is way higher than that. ;) I know you're not talking out of your hat and have suffered some serious disappointments. If you can still see that as part of God's purposes, more power to you. I just don't feel similarly. You're probably right that we're not going to agree, and I don't want to belabor it either. I see similar things among Christians, and you're absolutely right that "Not my will, but Thine" is a hard, HARD thing to pray for when the chips are really down. Especially if you don't really trust that His will is going to be something you can live with. But I guess I see the contradition as a failure (or maybe just a naivety? Weakness? Not sure what word I'm looking for) on the part of Christians. Well...and also on the part of certain Christian philosophical viewpoints, which I think are just wrong-headed and sometimes dangerous. I don't see paradoxical Christians as an indication that God isn't in charge, or doesn't know what He's doing, or doesn't really love people, or isn't as all-knowing or all-powerful as we like to think, or doesn't exist--but I can definitely see how a person could go there. And I don't really blame people who do, either. I just don't have a lot of patience with the "If I don't get what I want when I want it then that means there's no God" mindset (which I realize is not what you were saying), as if God's only reason to exist is to grant wishes. And there are definitely some "Christian" ideas I cannot swallow and some "Christian" groups with which I could never happily affiliate. Anyway...I know you haven't come to where you are frivolously, and you're on your own journey, and I'm happy to agree to disagree and I won't beat the poor dead horsie anymore. Thanks for letting me have my say and being so nice about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Nothing horrible will happen if I sit in a pew at church and occassionally mentally disagree, kwim? Sometimes just knowing that you're more settled on the inside makes sitting there easier. :iagree:Evil and suffering are a part of human life. God does not cause pain, but he is with us us in our pain. Although sometimes we can't see or feel him. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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