Guest kaleismom Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Hi, I'd like some advice for my 7yo dd who we fear is beginning to lose her German speaking skills. We are currently living in Germany (military family) and while she attended the German Kindergarten and first grade, we decided to pull her out this year and begin homeschooling. When we began, dd was fluent. She could read and was beginning to learn to write in German. In fact, all written correspondence with her had to be in German as she had not yet learned how to read English. Slowly I've noticed that she is losing her comprehension and speaking abilities. When she speaks to her friends, she is taking longer to respond and she is beginning to forget vocabulary. Currently, we are using the same German book as her local school to teach German but other subjects are taught in English as my German is not that great. She must read for at least 30 mins per day in German, she has a tutor one day a week/one hour, we schedule a play date 1 day per week and she has 3 extra curricular activities in German. The only problem with the activities is that they don't require much speaking. She takes music lessons and horseback riding lessons-mostly listening-and she attends Pfadfinder (a type of Boy/Girl scouts). Also her television time (about 5 hours per week) is only allowed to be in German. At the beginning of the year, on paper, this seemed adequate to continue her language skills. Now I see that we're falling short. Do you have any suggestions as to what we can add/do? I've thought about adding more extracurricular activities but more sports would only require her to listen quietly. TIA! kaleismom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaners Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I'm just throwing this out there, since this is not an area where I have any experience. Is there any chance that her agemates continuing to advance is making conversation more difficult for her? Even if she was maintaining the same level she was at before you switched to homeschooling, I could see her having trouble if the other children are pulling ahead. It's just an idea that came into my head while I was reading this. It's an age where children really take off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathmom Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Why did you take her out of school? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C_l_e_0..Q_c Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 Drama class. Theatre troupe. That will force her to speak the language, and not just listen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ester Maria Posted December 28, 2011 Share Posted December 28, 2011 I believe you have to define your goals first and foremost. Is your goal with your daughter a complete (balanced) bilingualism in English and German or is your goal to have your daughter "merely know" German, but not necessarily to the level to which she knows English? There are two very different goals which require two very different approaches. What you are doing right now seems to be in line with the second goal - the goal of having your daughter know German reasonably well, use it appropriately, and be literate in German. You are on a perfect path to producing a good, competent, literate, educated German speaker. However, you are not on an ideal path to producing a bilingual, a person who will be able to use both languages approximately to the same level, whose German will be equally good and equally "natural" in ALL settings of everyday life (mind you, perfect balanced bilingualism is rare, but being even approximately there makes you bilingual). What you are witnessing is not a "loss" of language skills - she can hardly "lose" German if she reads in it daily, has German playdates, hears German around her or on TV, uses it otherwise in daily life with German speakers - but you are witnessing a situation in which the language which was, to her, on par with English, fell down in importance. From a bilingual, she is probably "lowered" (for lack of a nicer expression) to the status of "only" a German speaker, i.e. she is not advancing in German by the same pace and in the same way as other German speakers her age are. That is fine. And that is okay, and normal, and acceptable - if that is your goal. If you want a bilingual though, you will have to make some changes. Even if you make no changes right now, if you are staying in Germany, there is a possibility of "upping" her German back later. The ways to up the language are principally via formal education. Her spoken, everyday German will be fine from TV, occasional speaking, and kids' books - what she needs is "school German", a more advanced lexical basis (the terms other kids know from various fields they study in German). The easiest way to do it is to school some in German, in addition to the regular German curriculum for German as a native language (as you are doing now). Get her German textbooks for other school subjects, or at least some of them; decide that you will be studying one subject per semester in German and rotate them. The basic rule for minimal bilingual education is language and literature as intended for native speakers (typically one subject) PLUS a non-linguistic discipline studied in that language (semi-bilingual schools typically study history, from what I have seen, and sometimes one scientific discipline when kids are older). This is the minimum. Ideally, her education would be 50%-50% (either with rotating subjects, or associating them by field - e.g. math and sciences in English, humanities in German), but since ideal situation is rarely what is found in practice, you do not need to worry, but you do need at least ONE non-linguistic area in German at a time, and preferably you rotate them to cover as wide variety of topics and specialized vocabulary as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaleismom Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 beaners/calandalsmom: Yes, that's exactly what we are afraid will happen/is happening. We were also thinking about increasing the playdates though I'm not sure that will help her advance, maybe only maintain. Though anything is better than decreasing. :) CleoQc: Great idea. I would love it if I could get her to do this but she isn't the slightest bit interested in that. loesje22000: Do you speak fluently in the foreign language? Also, can you tell me more about how you do Bible in the foreign language? Do you use a formal Bible curriculum? cathmom: Because of tax issues, we were unable to continue. Ester Maria: Thank you for the clarity. The way you explained the two goals makes perfect sense. It's something my husband and I will have to really think about. Off of the top of my head though, I think we'd be happy with something in the middle. Will definitely try rotating subjects. Thank you all for the replies and ideas! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Children do lose their skills extremely fast. Yes, children can lose a language as quickly as they pick it up. EM makes very good points about goals. You need long term maintenance of natural social language, ie, not just subjects. I would say too that now that the immersion situation is gone, if your daughter has a conscious desire to learn the language it might help...Before she 'had to' learn it...That brings you back to goals...How can you help her to desire to speak?...some kids have more natural drive to communicate (they're already talkative types) and aren't self-conscious about making mistakes (that's partly age-related). If you can find unstressful social circumstances where conversation just happens - art and nature type classes with friendly children, a gentle friend who doesn't speak English :) and likes to talk about all kinds of things, nature and history videos..... Plus - as others say, studying subjects - rotating through them to build vocabulary and more complex grammar. How long will you be staying in Germany? Joan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaleismom Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 Hi Joan, We should be here for about 3 more years at least. I've just been having such a difficult time finding clubs and things in our area for her. I miss the city! There were so many more opportunities there (but that was, of course, when she wasn't old enough to join. lol) DD is unfortunately the reluctant language learner. She balked for one full year before she began speaking German simply because she just didn't want to speak in another language. The Kindergarten teachers actually suggested I take her to the doc because she would refuse to speak English or German. Finally, we moved away and she was placed in a situation where she was forced to do so. Now that you mention it, I think her motivation may also be the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan in GE Posted January 2, 2012 Share Posted January 2, 2012 (edited) DD is unfortunately the reluctant language learner. She balked for one full year before she began speaking German simply because she just didn't want to speak in another language. The Kindergarten teachers actually suggested I take her to the doc because she would refuse to speak English or German. Finally, we moved away and she was placed in a situation where she was forced to do so. Now that you mention it, I think her motivation may also be the problem. Did she have very bad experiences in the beginning? or is she naturally timid and quiet? or both? The answers might affect your plans as well - eg finding 'very' supportive language situations with which she can relate to 'pleasure'...(I can see though how very difficult it might be if you don't have much access). When my daughter was young, we started attending a French speaking Christian meeting that was on a farm. The people were very kind and there was a girl her age. It couldn't have been a more pleasant environment. Sometimes in places where there are lots of expats, the locals give the cold shoulder to foreign kids making it very hard for them to integrate language wise. Here in Geneva there are approximately 38% foreigners from outside Switzerland, 28% from other Swiss cantons, so the percent of locals is VERY small. They tend to stick to themselves and just can't be bothered with those people who will just be leaving again in a few years. These people have 'roots'. I can completely understand now, as it is upsetting to have your friends keep leaving every two or three years, for children, esp, and even for me as I got older.:) When foreign kids join sports teams, for example, to try to learn the language, they can have problems even with the coach not wanting to help them. Then if the parents can't communicate that well, there are even more problems... But I don't know if the percent of foreigners affects your situation or not...just commenting on integration facility not always being easy.... Here in Switzerland they do have "logopedists" who work on language skills even for native language skills ie normally not second language skills. I don't know what exists in Germany. How did your daughter feel about the move? and you? Joan Edited January 2, 2012 by Joan in Geneva Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 For a young person, keeping up the oral side of language is especially important. (This is why even for pre-schoolers, immersion in a foreign language is so effective.) The phrase 'total immersion', referring to a language teaching approach, might seen a bit intimidating, but it ought not to be and it's effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest queenofthekitchen Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi, I completely understand your dilemma, I think. You want her to improve her language skills without putting her in school, right? We desire the same thing. My dd now 13 went to ps for 1st grade and we pulled her out and hsed up until last year, I saw the conversational Hebrew was slipping and she could not read or write very well at all. We put her in school just for half a year and she improved majorly, but there were other issues that I did not like. So we decided again to hs, but I see the same problem. In addition my three boys who are in ps still will be hsed in the fall as we will be stateside. I realized the other day while reading WTM for the first time (loved it, wish I'd read it sooner!) that the key to language learning for the second learning has to come as the first one did: copywork, memorization, dictation, narration, picture study, etc. I am just now trying these, so we'll see how my theory works in practicality. Reading in German or whatever language also helps build vocabulary and language skills. Have her read just a few minutes a day. The easier the better to start with and then build with more difficult levels. Doing the things you can do with her and having those things- like dictation, narration,picture study with the private teacher. Perhaps you could also set up "play dates" with friends who speak German? This is what we did when my dd was younger and it worked well although I noticed she was tired afterwards. It's harder to function in a second language until you are fluent and fluency comes more slowly if you are not immersed. If you would speak, even bad German to her, it will help also- just by example. Your German will improve as you speak, read and work with her as well. Learning another language is also good for character building- it is very humbling! As we say in Hebrew, "B'hatsliha!" or I wish you success! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farouk Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Hi, I completely understand your dilemma, I think. You want her to improve her language skills without putting her in school, right? We desire the same thing. My dd now 13 went to ps for 1st grade and we pulled her out and hsed up until last year, I saw the conversational Hebrew was slipping and she could not read or write very well at all. We put her in school just for half a year and she improved majorly, but there were other issues that I did not like. So we decided again to hs, but I see the same problem. In addition my three boys who are in ps still will be hsed in the fall as we will be stateside. I realized the other day while reading WTM for the first time (loved it, wish I'd read it sooner!) that the key to language learning for the second learning has to come as the first one did: copywork, memorization, dictation, narration, picture study, etc. I am just now trying these, so we'll see how my theory works in practicality. Reading in German or whatever language also helps build vocabulary and language skills. Have her read just a few minutes a day. The easier the better to start with and then build with more difficult levels. Doing the things you can do with her and having those things- like dictation, narration,picture study with the private teacher. Perhaps you could also set up "play dates" with friends who speak German? This is what we did when my dd was younger and it worked well although I noticed she was tired afterwards. It's harder to function in a second language until you are fluent and fluency comes more slowly if you are not immersed. If you would speak, even bad German to her, it will help also- just by example. Your German will improve as you speak, read and work with her as well. Learning another language is also good for character building- it is very humbling! As we say in Hebrew, "B'hatsliha!" or I wish you success! queenofthekitchen: Yes, I see that for you, too, 'immersed' is an operative idea for language learning. It's so important, but youngsters will learn so fast if they are truly immersed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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