Eastern Orthodox?

[Tabrett]

How does the Eastern Orthodox Church understand salvation? I am coming from a Protestant Armenian background and am trying to hash out my views; maybe change.;)

Scripture references, for me to study that support the understanding, would be great!

 

I have tried to read about EO online and may have some questions once I learn a little more.

[mommaduck]

Start with this short

. I nearly cry every time I listen to it; it is beautiful. Salvation is a journey, not just a destination. I'm not good with words on this subject, that is why offer this. I believe the other ladies will be able to explain better. I may have more later. (I have someone coming in a bit to fix the phone line)

[simka2]

I recently watched a dvd by Bishop Kallistsos Ware on this. I found a blog post by and Orthodox woman who is discussing that video a bit. It might be helpful. http://avowofconversation.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/salvation-in-christ/

 

Here is an excerpt: Metropolitan Kallistos then proposes four questions to help us evaluate each model.

 

1. Does it envisage a change in God or in us? “Some theories of Christ’s saving work seem to suggest that God is angry with us, and what Christ has done is to satisfy God’s anger. But that cannot be right. It is we who need changing, not God. As St. Paul said, ‘God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself†(2 Corinthians 5:19). It is the world that needs to be reconciled to God, not God to the world.â€

 

2. Does it separate Christ from the Father? “Some theories seem to suggest that God the Father is punishing Christ when He dies on the Cross. I remember as a student in Oxford hearing that great evangelical preacher Billy Graham say, “At the moment when Christ died on the Cross the lightning of God’s wrath hit him instead of you.†I didn’t find that a very happy way of thinking of Christ’s work. Surely we should not separate Christ from the Father in that kind of way, for they are one God, members of the Holy Trinity. As St Paul states, in the words that I quoted just now, ‘God was in Christ’. When Christ saves us, it is God who is at work in Him; there is no separation.â€

 

3. Does it isolate the cross from the Incarnation and the Resurrection? “We are to think of Christ’s life as a single unity. So we should not think only of the Cross, but we should think of what went before the Crucifixion, and of what comes after.â€

 

4. Does it presuppose an objective or a subjective understanding of Christ’s work? “Does Christ’s saving work merely appeal to our feelings, or did He do something to alter our objective situation in an actual and realistic way?â€

[HappyCrazyMama]

I am just an inquirer so I'll let others speak but in addition to the video mommaduck posted (which I love too!), I also like this one -

 

You can visit our social group too.:) http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/group.php?groupid=112

[myfatherslily]

I am not Orthodox, but I've been exploring the church for about a year. I enjoyed this article just the other day.

 

You might like to stop by the Orthodox social group here on the WTM. They are a great help!

 

ETA: I was typing while Happyhomemama posted! You are doubly invited! :D

[Tabrett]

Start with this short

. I nearly cry every time I listen to it; it is beautiful. Salvation is a journey, not just a destination. I'm not good with words on this subject, that is why offer this. I believe the other ladies will be able to explain better. I may have more later. (I have someone coming in a bit to fix the phone line)

 

How does EO view Grace? I have been taught that once you accept Jesus, you are saved through Grace and there are no works that can determine salvation, only God's Grace. Is "working out your salvation" the same as "works"? Is there a place for Grace? I have been taught that works are an outgrowth from salvation.

As you can tell, EO is very different from what I have been taught.

[mommaduck]

How does EO view Grace? I have been taught that once you accept Jesus, you are saved through Grace and there are no works that can determine salvation, only God's Grace. Is "working out your salvation" the same as "works"? Is there a place for Grace? I have been taught that works are an outgrowth from salvation.

As you can tell, EO is very different from what I have been taught.

Working out your salvation is not "works" in the way Protestants view/say it. Protestants have separated Salvation and Sanctification into these two separate categories (and a few others depending upon denomination...Justification, Propitiation, etc). The EO, and the RC, I believe, do not separate the two...they are part of a whole.

 

Yes, there is a place for Grace! Heavens, it's very much about Grace. All the Grace I heard preached about and I used to talk about as a Calvinist, I have experienced ten-fold in the EO!

Edited December 24, 2011 by mommaduck

[simka2]

How does EO view Grace? I have been taught that once you accept Jesus, you are saved through Grace and there are no works that can determine salvation, only God's Grace. Is "working out your salvation" the same as "works"? Is there a place for Grace? I have been taught that works are an outgrowth from salvation.

As you can tell, EO is very different from what I have been taught.

 

I have to run, but I wanted to echo Mommaduck. I came to EO from a grace-based non-denominational church. I was steeped in grace. Loved it! ....and I have not had to give that up at all. :D

 

That is not to say that their are not people in EO who do not emphasize works more than I or my Priest does, but my personal experience has been very grace filled.

 

This discussion is going to be difficult to have. If it gets a bit divisive I may bow out, but I will pm you and let you know.

 

:grouphug: On your journey.

[Parrothead]

Start with this short

. I nearly cry every time I listen to it; it is beautiful. Salvation is a journey, not just a destination. I'm not good with words on this subject, that is why offer this. I believe the other ladies will be able to explain better. I may have more later. (I have someone coming in a bit to fix the phone line)

That video was lovely.

[Parrothead]

Working out your salvation is not "works" in the way Protestants view/say it. Protestants have separated Salvation and Sanctification into these two separate categories (and a few others depending upon denomination...Justification, Propitiation, etc). The EO, and the RC, I believe, do not separate the two...they are part of a whole.

 

Yes, there is a place for Grace! Heavens, it's very much about Grace. All the Grace I heard preached about and I used to talk about as a Calvinist, I have experienced ten-fold in the EO!

Correct.

[Tabrett]

It's all grace. The very next breath you draw is by the grace of God.

 

However, in salvation, God will not force Himself on you--or it can't be love--so it is up to you to respond to His offer of communion--in love. If that counts as a "work" then ...

 

We do good works so we can be like Christ. The goal is union with Him...so we want to be like Him. He did good works--so should we. :0)

 

That sounds very Armenian in thought, which is how I believe. I believe you must choose to accept God's gift of salvation. That is is freely bestowed to all and it is our choice to accept or reject. Is this similar to EO's view? If not, what makes it different.

 

What is the definition of 'works' from an EO view? I have been taught that it is actions that you do intentionally to please God; to gain favor to try to 'pay' for your salvation. I have a feeling this is not the definition of works from an EO perspective.

I believe that works are an outflow of of God's love for us that we show to others. That once you accept Christ, you have a desire to love and serve Him, not you try to show Him love and serve him to try and gain His favor. Is this similar to EO?

[PrincessMommy]

That sounds very Armenian in thought, which is how I believe. I believe you must choose to accept God's gift of salvation. That is is freely bestowed to all and it is our choice to accept or reject. Is this similar to EO's view? If not, what makes it different.

 

What is the definition of 'works' from an EO view? I have been taught that it is actions that you do intentionally to please God; to gain favor to try to 'pay' for your salvation. I have a feeling this is not the definition of works from an EO perspective.

I believe that works are an outflow of of God's love for us that we show to others. That once you accept Christ, you have a desire to love and serve Him, not you try to show Him love and serve him to try and gain His favor. Is this similar to EO?

 

Armenian view of the gift of salvation is quite close to the EO view...so you are on the right track.

 

Works are a part of our salvation, but we are not saved because of them.

There is no either/or - works OR salvation... but there's a synergistic dance between them. Our works won't save us , however. But here's an example to ponder: what if someone "get's saved" and then goes out and lives just the way he/she wants to - selfish, debauched, etc.etc... basically the opposite of the way we are taught. They never repent or feel sadness for their actions. They never go to church or do anything to try to recompense those they hurt or cheated. In fact, they may even say it doesn't matter 'cuz they "said the sinner's prayers way back when" Anyway. does his works condemn him?

 

Works is nothing more than living out or Christian lives out with love toward our neighbor. How that looks for everyone is different though - do we show kindness to our children? Do we visit the sick? Do we forgive our spouses? Do we give to those in need? Do we do all of these?? The list goes on. And of course we fail - sometime, somewhere.. And this is where repentance and return to God comes in play within the Orthodox understanding. Our life is always a return to the Father's house.

[OnTheBrink]

I found a forum for EO that has boards for inquirers. I've also gotten a lot of questions answered there (I go there when I worry that I'm wearing out my EO friends here. ;) )

 

Orthodox Christianity forum

[simka2]

That sounds very Armenian in thought, which is how I believe. I believe you must choose to accept God's gift of salvation. That is is freely bestowed to all and it is our choice to accept or reject. Is this similar to EO's view? If not, what makes it different.

 

What is the definition of 'works' from an EO view? I have been taught that it is actions that you do intentionally to please God; to gain favor to try to 'pay' for your salvation. I have a feeling this is not the definition of works from an EO perspective.

I believe that works are an outflow of of God's love for us that we show to others. That once you accept Christ, you have a desire to love and serve Him, not you try to show Him love and serve him to try and gain His favor. Is this similar to EO?

Definitely the right track ;)

[PrincessMommy]

I found a forum for EO that has boards for inquirers. I've also gotten a lot of questions answered there (I go there when I worry that I'm wearing out my EO friends here. ;) )

 

Orthodox Christianity forum

 

I'm over there too! it's a good place generally, but it can get a little contentious sometimes.

[PrincessMommy]

Hi Tabrett. You know I realized I started talking before I realized exactly what you may mean by "works". I shouldn't have made that assumption. Are you talking about things like baptism or things like being kind to neighbors? Different Christians traditions may view either of these as works. But then, you may be talking about something completely different from either of those too.

[JenniferB]

Here are a couple of more resources for you to help you understand the Orthodox Christian view of salvation.

 

Here is a 10 minute video of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware answering the question, "

"

 

Here is a book by Metropolitan Kallistos titled "How Are We Saved?" It is a very short book, and can be savored (read slowly) or you can read it in one sitting. I just read one section a day, and I found that was a good pace.

 

To answer your original question in one word, Q: How does the Eastern Orthodox understand salvation? A: Synergy. Here is an article on Soteriology (the theology of salvation) according to the Orthodox Church.

[OnTheBrink]

I'm over there too! it's a good place generally, but it can get a little contentious sometimes.

 

Yes, I've noticed. ;) But I usually put more weight on answers from either priests or board moderators.

[PrincessMommy]

Yes, I've noticed. ;) But I usually put more weight on answers from either priests or board moderators.

 

I don't blame you.

[Tabrett]

Hi Tabrett. You know I realized I started talking before I realized exactly what you may mean by "works". I shouldn't have made that assumption. Are you talking about things like baptism or things like being kind to neighbors? Different Christians traditions may view either of these as works. But then, you may be talking about something completely different from either of those too.

 

Hum.... First Merry Christmas.

I would define works as attending church, tithing and being kind to neighbors. I don't define things such as baptist or communion as 'works'; would they not be defined as sacraments?

[PrincessMommy]

Hum.... First Merry Christmas.

I would define works as attending church, tithing and being kind to neighbors. I don't define things such as baptist or communion as 'works'; would they not be defined as sacraments?

 

Within the Orthodox church baptism and communion are considered Mysteries (which is roughly translated as "sacraments" in the west). I do know Protestants who consider baptism - as we or Catholics/Episcopalians/Lutherans see it - as a works righteousness. We don't see it that way - it is how strict Bible only Protestants interpret it. I was trying to see how you defined works. Thanks for answering...

 

I'm cooking dinner, visiting with family and all the other Christmasy stuff. Gotta run, but hopefully I'll get back to this conversation tomorrow.

[Tabrett]

Within the Orthodox church baptism and communion are considered Mysteries (which is roughly translated as "sacraments" in the west). I do know Protestants who consider baptism - as we or Catholics/Episcopalians/Lutherans see it - as a works righteousness. We don't see it that way - it is how strict Bible only Protestants interpret it. I was trying to see how you defined works. Thanks for answering...

 

I'm cooking dinner, visiting with family and all the other Christmasy stuff. Gotta run, but hopefully I'll get back to this conversation tomorrow.

 

I have been taught that Baptism is a public profession or a public symbolic announcement of your profession of faith (acceptance of Jesus). I know some protestants believe it is required for salvation, but I have never viewed it that way. I'm not sure what you mean by 'works righteousness'. How is it viewed in the EO Faith?

[milovany]

Orthodox Christianity forum

 

 

I'm "Thankful" over there, if you see that name on any posts. I don't post there much, and less than I used to.

 

 

I have been taught that Baptism is a public profession or a public symbolic announcement of your profession of faith (acceptance of Jesus). I know some protestants believe it is required for salvation, but I have never viewed it that way.

 

This idea, that baptism is a public/symbolic act of an inner "acceptance of Jesus," is a relatively new one in the Christian church. For most of church history, baptism was seen very differently; it was a mystery/sacrament -- a real washing "for the remission of sins," as well as the entrance into the Church. Many protestant churches still teach this, many don't.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'works righteousness'. How is it viewed in the EO Faith?

 

We don't have an either/or in this regard. It's not "this here is faith and that there is works righteousness." We both have faith AND we work our faith out as we go through life. One isn't more important than the other. I really don't know any Christian faith traditions that are solely works oriented; none that I know of say, check off this list of things to do and you'll be right with God. All the ones I'm familiar with combine faith and works (well, some don't have works! But then I would challenge, Scripturally, whether or not they really have faith).

[Lovedtodeath]

I recently watched a dvd by Bishop Kallistsos Ware on this. I found a blog post by and Orthodox woman who is discussing that video a bit. It might be helpful. http://avowofconversation.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/salvation-in-christ/

 

Here is an excerpt: Metropolitan Kallistos then proposes four questions to help us evaluate each model.

 

1. Does it envisage a change in God or in us? “Some theories of Christ’s saving work seem to suggest that God is angry with us, and what Christ has done is to satisfy God’s anger. But that cannot be right. It is we who need changing, not God. As St. Paul said, ‘God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself†(2 Corinthians 5:19). It is the world that needs to be reconciled to God, not God to the world.â€

 

2. Does it separate Christ from the Father? “Some theories seem to suggest that God the Father is punishing Christ when He dies on the Cross. I remember as a student in Oxford hearing that great evangelical preacher Billy Graham say, “At the moment when Christ died on the Cross the lightning of God’s wrath hit him instead of you.†I didn’t find that a very happy way of thinking of Christ’s work. Surely we should not separate Christ from the Father in that kind of way, for they are one God, members of the Holy Trinity. As St Paul states, in the words that I quoted just now, ‘God was in Christ’. When Christ saves us, it is God who is at work in Him; there is no separation.â€

 

3. Does it isolate the cross from the Incarnation and the Resurrection? “We are to think of Christ’s life as a single unity. So we should not think only of the Cross, but we should think of what went before the Crucifixion, and of what comes after.â€

 

4. Does it presuppose an objective or a subjective understanding of Christ’s work? “Does Christ’s saving work merely appeal to our feelings, or did He do something to alter our objective situation in an actual and realistic way?â€

Wow! that is spot on IMO. Wonderful!

[Lovedtodeath]

Works are a part of our salvation, but we are not saved because of them.

There is no either/or - works OR salvation... but there's a synergistic dance between them. Our works won't save us , however. But here's an example to ponder: what if someone "get's saved" and then goes out and lives just the way he/she wants to - selfish, debauched, etc.etc... basically the opposite of the way we are taught. They never repent or feel sadness for their actions. They never go to church or do anything to try to recompense those they hurt or cheated. In fact, they may even say it doesn't matter 'cuz they "said the sinner's prayers way back when" Anyway. does his works condemn him?

No... his works show that he is condemned. "By their fruit you will know them." "Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." I am saying this to invite response.

[Lovedtodeath]

This might help: The words salvation and sanctification are in actuality interchangeable and this seems to cause confusion in Protestants understanding the EO view. This article represents the local baptist church's view, though they actually used the terms I am saved, I am being saved, I will be saved in their explanation, whereas this article uses the term salvation for the I am saved phase, and sanctification for all three. Interesting, and possibly more helpful for discussion:

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/sanctification.html

 

To summarize, sanctification is the same Greek word as holiness, “hagios,” meaning a separation. First, a once-for-all positional separation unto Christ at our salvation. Second, a practical progressive holiness in a believer’s life while awaiting the return of Christ. Third, we will be changed into His perfect likeness—holy, sanctified, and completely separated from the presence of evil.

Maybe EO comments on that would help? Edited December 26, 2011 by Lovedtodeath