After 6th grade math, does a child typically go to Pre-Algebra?

[HappyGrace]

I saw this in another thread (the current Singapore thread)-one of the posters said that typically after 6th grade math (MM, Horizons, CLE, Saxon) a dc goes into pre-algebra.

 

Is that true? I see that after Horizons 6 they DO go into pre-algebra, and I believe that is the case with MM (not sure about Saxon), and I assume that would be for the average student.

[boscopup]

I was the one who said that, and from my research on here and looking at various programs, yes, that is what I concluded. But yes, pre-algebra is kind of a nebulous thing that involves reviewing elementary math and introducing some basic algebra concepts. Some kids go from MM6 or Singapore 6 straight to algebra (using the beginning chapters of an algebra text as that "review" that pre-algebra does). The author of AoPS said you can start AoPS Pre-Algebra after completing Singapore 5. Obviously, the AoPS Pre-Algebra course is covering the material found in Singapore 6.

 

Here's Maria Miller's definition of pre-algebra:

 

http://www.mathmammoth.com/complete/prealgebra.php

 

Though she says most students take it in 8th grade, except that she recommends it after MM6, and again, most of the available homeschool programs teach it in 7th grade. CLE uses 7th and 8th to teach it, but I've seen people say they went from CLE 7 to Algebra. Saxon also has 2 options (8/7 and Algebra 1/2), but most kids only do one of those books, not both, AFAIK. Singapore has an integrated math approach, so their upper level books aren't separated into "pre-algebra", "algebra", "geometry", etc. You can go from Singapore 6 to a pre-algebra course from another publisher though.

 

I'd recommend looking at what you're using for elementary and where they usually put pre-algebra, then plan from there.

[HappyGrace]

Thanks, Bosco-your post is really helpful! I just got off the phone w/ CLE (we've used since 1st grade; will finish 6th end of the summer) and they said their 7th/8th has the pre-algebra built in. But this dc will be going into a school eventually where the math is a yr ahead, so I'm hoping to put this dc from CLE 6th directly into pre-algebra to get on that track (we plan to make math our focus for the next yr or so and can devote as much time as we need to it.)

 

I am having trouble figuring out how to know that elementary math is "done" though so we're ready to move on to pre-alg. I think "nebulous" is the perfect word!

[8filltheheart]

I saw this in another thread (the current Singapore thread)-one of the posters said that typically after 6th grade math (MM, Horizons, CLE, Saxon) a dc goes into pre-algebra.

 

Is that true? I see that after Horizons 6 they DO go into pre-algebra, and I believe that is the case with MM (not sure about Saxon), and I assume that would be for the average student.

 

All of my kids have gone from Horizons 6 into MUS algebra. I do treat it as pre-alg, though, and my kids take another yr of algebra after completing the MUS text.

[boscopup]

You might want to check the scope and sequence of CLE and compare it with something like MM or Singapore or Horizons. I think you'll find them fairly similar. CLE moves at a good pace for elementary math. I don't think you'd have any problem going from CLE 6 to pre-algebra in a school. And do you know what the school uses for pre-algebra? My son's private school used Saxon, so if I were to put him back in school, I could just give him the Saxon placement test and see where he should be. If your school uses Saxon or another program that has a placement test, that might be a good option to make you feel better. :)

[abbeyej]

Ds went from Horizons 6 (and various supplements along the way) to Dolciani (Algebra: Structure and Method, Book 1) and did very well. He has since done Geometry (Jacobs) and half of Algebra 2 with solid As, so I don't think he missed anything fundamental.

 

My dd will likely spend some additional time -- review of advanced arithmetic concepts, introduction to basic algebra topics -- before going on to Dolciani. She's just a different kid with a very different approach to math. She'll likely need a little time with "pre-algebra".

[regentrude]

Well, the term pre-algebra is kinda silly anyway. There is no such thing really. It's basically typical concepts that lead up to algebra. I'd say that many do study those concepts after 6th grade (and even some of the concepts before then). It's not set in stone though because it obviously depends on whether or not the kid is ready for it.

:iagree:

 

 

I am having trouble figuring out how to know that elementary math is "done" though so we're ready to move on to pre-alg. I think "nebulous" is the perfect word!

 

A child needs to be proficient in arithmetic with integers and fractions, positive and negative, before starting algebra. WHEN that happens, depends on your student.

Typically, arithmetic with integers is finished at the end of 4th grade. Why one would need THREE years to teach fractions is something I have never been able to understand.

[boscopup]

I think AoPS pre -a is a lot meatier than SM 6A/6B. That's why I skipped 6A/6B. It was just too redundant. The US edition doesn't even cover negative numbers (and doesn't cover exponents and routes). In fact I'm rather surprised that there is pretty much nothing new in SM 6A/6B.

 

Oh yes. Sorry, I didn't mean that Singapore 6 = AoPS Pre-Algebra. Not by a long shot! I meant that AoPS Pre-Algebra obviously covers everything that would be found in Singapore 6 ALONG WITH any other pre-algebra topics. Richard R. said you could safely skip Singapore 6 and go straight to AoPS Pre-Algebra after Singapore 5. But that doesn't mean that the two are equivalent. :) It's more of a case where AoPS is a big circle, and Singapore 6 is a smaller circle inside that big circle. ;)

 

I haven't looked that closely at Singapore 6. I'm likely going to just do a pre-algebra course after Singapore 5 myself. Singapore 4 Standards edition introduces negative numbers, though I don't know how far it goes in later books. The introduction was limited to what my son had learned in K when we had a brief, informal discussion about negative numbers. :tongue_smilie:

[8filltheheart]

:iagree:

 

 

 

 

A child needs to be proficient in arithmetic with integers and fractions, positive and negative, before starting algebra. WHEN that happens, depends on your student.

Typically, arithmetic with integers is finished at the end of 4th grade. Why one would need THREE years to teach fractions is something I have never been able to understand.

 

Horizons finishes covering basic arithmetic skills in 5th grade. I think (I'd have to pull one out to look) it takes completing their 5th grade books to be solid on mixed number multi/division, percentages, and 3 digit division. Their 6th grade texts are mostly solidifying all elementary level math. I may have morphed books in my thinking though.

 

FWIW, I have only had 2 kids doing alg in 5th grade. I know that my current 4th grade would be incapable of alg next yr. Part of the reason for not starting alg is 5th grade is the level of abstraction. Not all kids are cognitively ready to move beyond the concrete at age 10 and publishers definitely publish to the center.

Edited December 22, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[boscopup]

Horizons finishes covering basic arithmetic skills in 5th grade. I think (I'd have to pull one out to look) it takes completing their 5th grade books to be solid on mixed number multi/division, percentages, and 3 digit division. Their 6th grade texts are mostly solidifying all elementary level math. I may have morphed books in my thinking though.

 

Yeah, I think Singapore 5 is where division with a 2-digit divisor is taught, not 4th. In 4th, they've only done 1-digit divisors. MM4B teaches 2-digit divisor, but doesn't get into negative numbers until grade 5, IIRC.

 

I think most US elementary math books don't complete basic arithmetic by 4th grade.

[julikins]

All of my kids have gone from Horizons 6 into MUS algebra. I do treat it as pre-alg, though, and my kids take another yr of algebra after completing the MUS text.

 

Can you elaborate on this a little? I've been doing MUS all the way through and planned to just follow the curriculum to the end. But is the MUS Algebra on the "light" side? Tell me if I understand correctly. You use MUS Algebra as pre-algebra, then you do another program for Algebra 1 and 2? Have you tried MUS Geometry? Thanks! :)

[regentrude]

FWIW, I have only had 2 kids doing alg in 5th grade. I know that my current 4th grade would be incapable of alg next yr. Part of the reason for not starting alg is 5th grade is the level of abstraction. Not all kids are cognitively ready to move beyond the concrete at age 10 and publishers definitely publish to the center.

 

You might have misunderstood my post. I did NOT suggest students should take algebra in 5th grade.

If integer arithmetic is covered by the end of 4th, I would see finishing fractions by the end of 5th or, if needed, part way into 6th - which would mean being done with prealgebra at the end of 6th... as opposed to dwelling on it for three years as in public school.

[8filltheheart]

You might have misunderstood my post. I did NOT suggest students should take algebra in 5th grade.

If integer arithmetic is covered by the end of 4th, I would see finishing fractions by the end of 5th or, if needed, part way into 6th - which would mean being done with prealgebra at the end of 6th... as opposed to dwelling on it for three years as in public school.

 

I did misunderstand your post. I do think, though, that integer arithmetic is probably not finished in most 4th grade textbooks.

[EKS]

If by prealgebra you mean the year before Algebra I, then, yes, for kids doing Algebra I in 8th grade, prealgebra would be 7th grade math.

 

Prealgebra generally means a great big review of arithmetic and beginning algebra and geometry concepts.

[HappyGrace]

So how do you know they have "covered" elementary math sufficiently to move on to pre-algebra? (obviously for something like Saxon one could do a placement test, but that may not show up deficiencies)

 

And also, as for integers-how solid would something like that need to be before prealgebra-I think we only did one very basic unit on this (and then spiral review.)

[8filltheheart]

Can you elaborate on this a little? I've been doing MUS all the way through and planned to just follow the curriculum to the end. But is the MUS Algebra on the "light" side? Tell me if I understand correctly. You use MUS Algebra as pre-algebra, then you do another program for Algebra 1 and 2? Have you tried MUS Geometry? Thanks! :)

 

My kids use the older algebra/geometry combo book. That is the way they were originally published. THey then separated them into 2 textbooks w/o changing content (at least that was what I was told by several different MUS vendors.) Next, they created the "honors" books which were sold separately. Now the "honors" books are integrated into the books.

 

I have never used the honors books, so my comments are based strictly on the content of the alg/geo program (which when I purchased were in the student texts and student workbooks.). I think they are incredibly weak. The geometry focuses mostly on angles,etc w/very few proofs. The alg that is covered stops before the quadratic formula.

 

I personally would not recommend or use MUS for high school math. I think there are much better texts available w/better explanations and better problem sets. I have taught alg up 4 complete times now using various books and all of them have been vastly superior in quality to MUS. (Foerster is my personal fav for algebras. My ds perfers AoPS's approach. I don't really have a fav for geometry, but for now my recommendation is Geometry, by Daniel Alexander and Geralyn Koeberlein (Houghton Mifflin Company, 2007))

[EKS]

So how do you know they have "covered" elementary math sufficiently to move on to pre-algebra? (obviously for something like Saxon one could do a placement test, but that may not show up deficiencies)

 

And also, as for integers-how solid would something like that need to be before prealgebra-I think we only did one very basic unit on this (and then spiral review.)

 

If you feel that your child is doing well in 6th grade math, there is no reason to wait for prealgebra. A good prealgebra course will make it easy to find gaps and fill them as you go.

 

As for integers, most of the arithmetic taught in grades K-4 is about how to deal with positive integers. The negative integers are generally dealt with extensively in prealgebra.

[jennynd]

I think AoPS pre -a is a lot meatier than SM 6A/6B. That's why I skipped 6A/6B. It was just too redundant. The US edition doesn't even cover negative numbers (and doesn't cover exponents and routes). In fact I'm rather surprised that there is pretty much nothing new in SM 6A/6B.

This is not true to SM STD edition. STD cover neg since 4A continue in 5 and 6 and many question I found in AOPS preA are in IP4 or 5 in SM.

Some topic tn 6 is extremely easy, but some topic, without algebra, i had to find solution in HIG.

Edited January 3, 2012 by jennynd

[TracyR]

My daughter had no problem moving from using CLE Math to prealgebra last year. If he completes 700 and 800 he will be ready to move right into an algebra course.

[BlueTaelon]

I'm feeling a bit lost with this thread, when I was in school 6th grade was pre-algebra, I was looking at a charter school for 6th next year for my dd and they also list pre-algebra as standard 6th grade math (k12.com school) and based on where she's at with math she should be ready for the class come fall. Am I looking at radically different education standards? I didn't make it to the pre-alg class until I think 8th and was considered one of the dumb kids because that was taught back in 6th and that was in a public school.

 

Doesn't math look like this when a kid is on track?

6th:pre-alg

7th: alg 1

8th:Geometry

9th:alg 2

10th:pre calc/trig

11th:calc

12:depended on where you where in math, usually it was calc for seniors who failed an earlier class and were behind.

 

Thats what the line up was when I was in school, I didn't think it had changed all that much and was what I expect from my own kids. Do I need to readjust that view? dd seems to be doing just fine on the track she's on and it doesn't seem like I'm expecting to much from her.

[Crimson Wife]

Doesn't math look like this when a kid is on track?

6th:pre-alg

7th: alg 1

8th:Geometry

9th:alg 2

10th:pre calc/trig

11th:calc

12:depended on where you where in math, usually it was calc for seniors who failed an earlier class and were behind.

 

Thats what the line up was when I was in school, I didn't think it had changed all that much and was what I expect from my own kids. Do I need to readjust that view? dd seems to be doing just fine on the track she's on and it doesn't seem like I'm expecting to much from her.

 

This is the new "honors" track at my alma mater. They advanced everyone a full year sometime after my youngest brother graduated in '03 because they wanted all the college prep kids doing algebra 1 in 8th. When I went through, the honors kids did algebra 1 in 8th and the regular college prep did it in 9th.

[boscopup]

Doesn't math look like this when a kid is on track?

6th:pre-alg

7th: alg 1

8th:Geometry

9th:alg 2

10th:pre calc/trig

11th:calc

12:depended on where you where in math, usually it was calc for seniors who failed an earlier class and were behind.

 

 

When I was in school, only a very select few (literally, 2-3 kids in the class of 550) got to do this track. The normal advanced track was to do Algebra in 9th, Geometry in 10th, Algebra 2/Trig in 11th, AP Calculus in 12th. That select few did Algebra in 8th by going over to the high school for math class in 8th grade, so they just followed the above one year early. The average math student did Pre-Calc in 12th. I'm not entirely sure what their sequence was... maybe Algebra in 9th, Geometry in 10th, Algebra 2 in 11th, Pre-Calc in 12th? I'm not completely sure, since I was in the AP Calc in 12th group (would have been in the more advanced track, but my mom didn't know they still had the program in middle school :glare:... it wasn't advertised AT ALL - you had to know to ask for it, and while my brother and sister had both done it, it'd been 5 years and my mom forgot).

 

Algebra in 7th grade is pretty uncommon in public schools, so no, I wouldn't call that a typical track. It's usually in 8th or 9th, and some schools that push it in 8th have a lot of kids repeating it in 9th.

 

And looking at the K12 math sequence, they have "Pre-Algebra A" and "Pre-Algebra B" for 6th and 7th grade, so they're spending 2 years on Pre-Algebra, then doing Algebra in 8th. And if you look at their high school courses, they even have Algebra 1 listed as an Honors course (following the same sequence my school had, with Algebra in 9th and AP Calc in 12th).

[BlueTaelon]

When I was in school, only a very select few (literally, 2-3 kids in the class of 550) got to do this track. The normal advanced track was to do Algebra in 9th, Geometry in 10th, Algebra 2/Trig in 11th, AP Calculus in 12th. That select few did Algebra in 8th by going over to the high school for math class in 8th grade, so they just followed the above one year early. The average math student did Pre-Calc in 12th. I'm not entirely sure what their sequence was... maybe Algebra in 9th, Geometry in 10th, Algebra 2 in 11th, Pre-Calc in 12th? I'm not completely sure, since I was in the AP Calc in 12th group (would have been in the more advanced track, but my mom didn't know they still had the program in middle school :glare:... it wasn't advertised AT ALL - you had to know to ask for it, and while my brother and sister had both done it, it'd been 5 years and my mom forgot).

 

Algebra in 7th grade is pretty uncommon in public schools, so no, I wouldn't call that a typical track. It's usually in 8th or 9th, and some schools that push it in 8th have a lot of kids repeating it in 9th.

 

And looking at the K12 math sequence, they have "Pre-Algebra A" and "Pre-Algebra B" for 6th and 7th grade, so they're spending 2 years on Pre-Algebra, then doing Algebra in 8th. And if you look at their high school courses, they even have Algebra 1 listed as an Honors course (following the same sequence my school had, with Algebra in 9th and AP Calc in 12th).

 

 

:blush5:I didn't even notice they had 2 years of pre-alg, I was just looking at 6th grade and made the mistake of assuming 1 year pre-alg then on to alg 1. To me if the kids are needing 2 years they are not ready for the class, maybe they are just calling it pre-alg to make it look more then it is? I'd have to look at the class content.

[RootAnn]

Our "Honors" track was like what boscopup posted.

7th: Pre-Algebra (H)

8th: Algebra 1 (H)

9th: Geometry (H)

10th: Algebra 2 w/Trig (H)

11th: Pre-Calc (H)

12th: Calculus A/B

 

The "regular" track was:

7th: Math (review)

8th: Pre-Algebra

9th: Algebra 1

10th: Geometry

11th: Algebra 2

12th: Pre-Calc w/Trig (optional)

 

My mother decided to have me skip Algebra 2 by having me take it in summer school between 8th & 9th. So, I finished Calc as a Jr & took Calc III & Diff. Equations at the local university my senior year of high school. I was the only one on that "track" before or after me for at least two years.

 

DH was not disadvantaged in any way (at the time) by not having access to anything above Algebra 2 in high school. I'm sure it is different now, but it didn't slow him down in his Electrical Engineering degree.

 

I think it disadvantages kids to push them too quickly if they aren't ready for the material. Mass acceleration doesn't make much sense to me.

 

On the other hand, if the kids are ready, send them to the next level.