Can you handle another faith\religion thread?

[milovany]

I had to let go of the idea that I needed to find the perfect denomination or church.

 

Just for the sake of clarification -- those of us who do believe in a "one holy catholic and apostolic church" have not and would not say it's a perfect church. I think the basis for our desire to be in a particular church (and those who don't feel this way can say so for themselves) is its historicity. We want to be joined to the single pre-denominational church that traces its roots back to the New Testament (tangibly, through apostolic succession). It does still exist -- somewhere -- and we believe being a part of it means something. And most of us understand that it does not mean something to all Christians, and that's fine. We do not judge that; where someone stands before God is between them and God. We each and all have our own things keeping us from full communion with God, and we each and all need to pursue the repentance needed for that communion to be healed.

 

Anyway, just wanted to point out, since it was worded this way, that it's not perfection we're after.

Edited December 21, 2011 by milovaný

[Rosie_0801]

Yes, I can see how a cathedral would have the effect you are talking about. I've often thought about just going in and just sitting, thinking, praying. Now, for some questions from the uneducated...do they let you do that?

 

In both cities I've lived in, the cathedral was always open during the day. I don't know what a cathedral is for if not for being in.

 

Rosie

[Lovedtodeath]

Now I feel the need to clarify that I wasn't at all thinking of EO when I said that. I had to come to the non-denominational conclusion myself, before I could come to Christ. That is how it worked for me. Now... I can be non-denominational in my heart and still choose a denomination or even the Church... if they would allow that.

 

My posts are not all directed at EO. They are all directed at the cult that is holding my family hostage, and teachings that I find elsewhere that are similar to the cult teachings, some of which I think I see in EO.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Lovedtodeath

[Lovedtodeath]

 

Yes, I can see how a cathedral would have the effect you are talking about. I've often thought about just going in and just sitting, thinking, praying. Now, for some questions from the uneducated...do they let you do that?

The Lutheran Church on the corner is locked during the day. It is due to security measures for the preschool.

[JenniferB]

Would it be wrong for me to ask him to stay on the outskirts of this for awhile?

 

Absolutely not wrong! In fact, it will come to that at some point anyway. We must each choose for ourselves no matter how connected at the hip we are to our spouses, believe me, my DH and I are as connected at the hip as any two can get, but in the end we still each have to choose for ourselves. I think it's so important for husbands and wives to respect each other's worship choices. I have no experience with what that looks like when spouses have very different views. My DH & I have slightly different views, and we are still both in a state of flux, so it's kind of like a dance for us right now, and once in a while we step on each other's feet. We've managed to handle it fairly respectfully so far. We each have our own struggles, so it's important to give each other space when it comes to seeking and finding.

[anabelneri]

When I was searching, I used to go "church hopping". Every Sunday I would go to a different church. This was when I was in college, and near downtown Colorado Springs, and there are a lot of churches in CSprings! I visited a variety of Protestant churches (from "Church of Christ, Scientist" to "United Pentecostal" and everything in between), a couple Catholic churches, and even a Jewish synagogue during that time.

 

One thing I found (for me) was that every congregation I visited somehow reflected God, maybe played a particular chord in the music of God. Some of them I didn't feel like I could "hear" them very well. Some irked me. Some were nice, and even beautiful. The synagogue had a very, very deep tone... it was beautiful, and I could hear it and even feel it (like you can feel the vibrations of a deep base line in music). But it was in the Catholic churches that the "music" brought me to tears. There weren't any Orthodox churches nearby, so I didn't visit one, but I'm sure it would also have been beautiful (I love love love their theology). So, like others, I would suggest you go visit different churches. Can you find one where you can feel God?

 

In a Catholic context, a church is a Cathedral if it's pastor is the local Bishop. Most Catholic Cathedrals seem to be built to be grand, beautiful places. Think of the old iconic medieval churches in Europe (Gothic, Romanesque, etc). They are built with the goal of lifting our spirits to the heavens. But there's also a common usage for the term cathedral that simply implies that style of architecture. In Durham, NC, the building most like a cathedral was Duke Chapel; Duke is Methodist, and there's no Bishop involved. But boy-howdy it could lift spirits to God. Besides Catholics and Methodists, the most common traditions (that I've seen) to build cathedrals are Episcopalians and Presbyterians. If you can find one they're a lovely place to pray.

 

Husbands... my husband and I talk to each other about our journeys, but we're both on our own paths. We were on totally different paths, but now we're on the same path, but we have different relationships with that path. That's Ok, as long as it doesn't become divisive. Another consideration is kids... generally speaking, kids' religious upbringing seems to fall to the mother, especially the younger ones. It doesn't need to be a problem, just a consideration that you and your husband might want to talk about.

 

In your search to feel God again, one thing to look up is the "dark night of the soul". There is some good literature out there; your experience is not uncommon.

 

Good luck!

Edited December 21, 2011 by anabelneri

[MSNative]

Right, the obvious.:D

 

 

 

 

 

See, this is why I am where I am. I know He is there, I know He listens, I KNOW he can help...why isn't it obvious to me to to ask Him first? Actually, I know the answer. I'm too impatient. I want an answer now, not in a day, a week, or a month.

 

Are there people who get answers immediately? Maybe I do to but I'm not quiet enough to hear them. (?)

 

I don't ever get answers immediately. I also have never gotten an answer from being silent and waiting to hear something. I just read the Bible and try to really think about what that verse or chapter is saying. Then I pray through each sentence of it. Though I've never heard an answer, I have gotten some deeper insights into His Word that have answered my questions, if that makes sense.

 

God is faithful. Hope these verses give you confidence and comfort. They help me when I am feeling far from God.

 

 

1. Deuteronomy 4:29
   But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul.
   Deuteronomy 4:28-30 (in Context) Deuteronomy 4 (Whole Chapter)
   
2. Jeremiah 29:13
   You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
   Jeremiah 29:12-14 (in Context) Jeremiah 29 (Whole Chapter)
   

[Alison in KY]

You have received some great responses so far, and I know you are on your way. I think what you are looking for is just a good Christian church, and that could be found in a variety of denominations, as long as you can agree on their finer points. However, sometimes it takes a while of hearing some teaching to know what you really believe in (say sprinkling, vs dunking).

 

I could not gain the knowledge I have today without my church. But I don't think it's all about church either. I know that God has me where I'm supposed to be right now. I have come to truly know the Lord as an adult. I went to a very nice, small, country church for 5 years. It's there I learned what people mean when they say church family. I was involved, and I did get to know others. I was flabbergasted that people I hardly know would hug me and throw a baby shower for me. It was all just so nice :). And then there was the day that hurt terribly. When something happened there and I just didn't agree with it (a kids church thing). I left church life for a couple years, totally down on churches...which was silly of me. A few poor decisions by some was not what should have been equated to churches being a negative, but it was at the time. Through a series of issues, I felt drawn back into church. Now, I know that God was pulling me there, to the place he wanted me. I was not reading my Bible at home, or doing anything with my faith. I needed teaching from someone, and I was miserable enough in life that I knew I needed God...but I didn't know what that really would mean for my life.

 

My second church experience was in a non-denominational church and it's there I truly came to know God. I have a real relationship with Him now, and I love it. I don't feel his arms around me all the time, but I have before, and it's a beautiful thing. I know that He's there for me. I credit my pastor with teaching some awesome Bible lessons that really helped me get where I am. I know the Lord is working through him. I now know more about what basics of my faith I believe in, but it took my pastor for me to understand more. I don't even agree with everything he says, but I still needed him in my life to get to this point.

 

For awhile I became a denomination snob, thinking the only real church experience had to be experienced like mine (in a non-denom church)...but that was just ignorance. What you want is to be around people that are really saved and a teacher that is really listening to God...and that can be found in a variety of denominations. I'd just start visiting churches and see what you find. Just remember that everyone in church could be at a different stage in their life...they may just be getting to know God themselves. I've seen people at my church that grew up in church, but say they felt like they've never experienced God...or had that personal relationship with Him. They were just going through the motions. I will no longer go through the motions.

 

Our church website has some video's taped of preaching. It's at http://www.faithcenter.tv if you'd like to check it out.

 

Oh, one more thing. When I went out searching for a church (to help me know God more), I found several that I liked. The funny thing is that I was somewhat turned off by my church when I visited it. There was something about the pastor that didn't sit well with me. I felt a bit uncomfortable. Well, God had another plan. I didn't really have a choice, because even though I had my doubts, I kept feeling drawn back to this church. In the end, I think I was uncomfortable because this pastor would stretch me as a person, and bring me out the of the box that I was in. It wasn't a bad thing, just not always comfortable.

 

I hope some of this has helped you. Please PM me when you find what you need, I'd love to hear the rest of the story.

 

Alison

[milovany]

My posts are not all directed at EO. They are all directed at the cult that is holding my family hostage, and teachings that I find elsewhere that are similar to the cult teachings, some of which I think I see in EO.

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: Thank you for clarifying, Carmen. I know you've gone through a very major, yet freeing, experience in these last months, and I'm sure that's both thrilling ... and exhausting! I do understand one's desire to be "non-denominational" and respect it. I know that you love God and are on a journey to be with Him, and I know He loves and cares for you!

[MamaSheep]

Just for the sake of clarification -- those of us who do believe in a "one holy catholic and apostolic church" have not and would not say it's a perfect church. I think the basis for our desire to be in a particular church (and those who don't feel this way can say so for themselves) is its historicity. We want to be joined to the single pre-denominational church that traces its roots back to the New Testament (tangibly, through apostolic succession). It does still exist -- somewhere -- and we believe being a part of it means something. And most of us understand that it does not mean something to all Christians, and that's fine. We do not judge that; where someone stands before God is between them and God. We each and all have our own things keeping us from full communion with God, and we each and all need to pursue the repentance needed for that communion to be healed.

 

Anyway, just wanted to point out, since it was worded this way, that it's not perfection we're after.

 

This post has been picking at the back of my brain, so I think I'll add my 2 cents so it will leave me alone...lol.

 

For the sake of clarity, I don't tend to use the phrase "one holy catholic and apostolic church", as it has a lot of baggage and people make assumptions when they hear it. But in its literal sense it's something I very much believe in. I believe there is only one church--God is not divided and neither is His church. I believe that it is holy, as its source is God, not man. I believe it is catholic in the sense that it is universal for all mankind. And I believe true apostolic authority is vital. For me, though, authenticity is more important than historicity. For ME, a genuine connection with God, and unadulterated apostolic authority given by God to man are more important than a connection to historic councils. (As a point of information, in our church bearers of the priesthood can trace their priesthood back, ordination by ordination, to Jesus Christ through the apostles Peter, James, and John.) Do I believe God's church is perfect? Of course not. Anything that imperfect mankind is involved in will be imperfect. But I believe that God is drawing it toward perfection.

 

Like you, though, I certainly understand and respect that other people believe differently than I do, and that's fine. Where someone stands before God is between them and God, and not for me to judge. But I thought I'd toss my pennies in the mix, since you invited those who feel differently about historicity to speak up for themselves.

 

:)

Edited December 22, 2011 by MamaSheep

[gardenmom5]

Are there people who get answers immediately? Maybe I do to but I'm not quiet enough to hear them. (?)

 

in my experience, sometimes answers come immediately . . . . and sometimes they take alot of faith and perserverance in prayer. and patience in trusting in the timetable of the Lord. of those times that answers took a long time . . . there would often (but not always) be that calm assurance the Lord was there, watching me, with me, aware, but trusting me to make right choices. I might even get answers on the little stuff, but got silence on the big stuff. Until the answers eventually came. sometimes it was because I wasn't ready for the answer, sometimes because I was supposed to learn faith (if it's easy, it's not a trial.), sometimes it took its own sweet time because the timing was wrong and things needed to wait for the right time.

 

Just keep praying the Lord will guide you to where you will be happiest being able to learn of Him and be like Him, and where it will help you to become the best person you can be. :)

 

eta: I have had "answers" come before I even knew I needed to ask a question - but those are an exception.

Edited December 22, 2011 by gardenmom5

[mommaduck]

This post has been picking at the back of my brain, so I think I'll add my 2 cents so it will leave me alone...lol.

 

For the sake of clarity, I don't tend to use the phrase "one holy catholic and apostolic church", as it has a lot of baggage and people make assumptions when they hear it. But in its literal sense it's something I very much believe in. I believe there is only one church--God is not divided and neither is His church. Agreed. I believe that it is holy, as its source is God, not man. Agreed. I believe it is catholic in the sense that it is universal for all mankind. And I believe true apostolic authority is vital. Agreed. For me, though, authenticity is more important than historicity. For us, historicity PROVES authenticity. For ME, a genuine connection with God, and unadulterated apostolic authority given by God to man are more important than a connection to historic councils. The latter is part of the former. They are not separate items. The councils merely dealt with heresies and writing down that which was already believed and practiced from the beginning. Also, the EO is unadulterated. It has not changed in the 2000+ years of it's existence. It did not split from another. It did not make a separate appearance hundreds or thousands of years after the Church formed. It IS the Church. (As a point of information, in our church bearers of the priesthood can trace their priesthood back, ordination by ordination, to Jesus Christ through the apostles Peter, James, and John.) I would like to see proof of this. The LDS started with Joseph Smith. Please prove to me that he has apostolic succession, other than the claims that he makes on the visits from Moroni. Do I believe God's church is perfect? Of course not. Anything that imperfect mankind is involved in will be imperfect. But I believe that God is drawing it toward perfection.

 

Like you, though, I certainly understand and respect that other people believe differently than I do, and that's fine. Where someone stands before God is between them and God, and not for me to judge. But I thought I'd toss my pennies in the mix, since you invited those who feel differently about historicity to speak up for themselves.

 

:)

 

Since we're tossing our pennies in ;) I know we will never agree, but I think it needs to be made clear that we also use terms entirely differently. Ex. the way your church determines apostolic succession is different than the way Orthodoxy and Catholicism determine apostolic succession. The Reformed hold closer to the EO and RC on this matter as well.

[Melinda in VT]

Mommaduck, the LDS church teaches that Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and ordained him.

[mommaduck]

Mommaduck, the LDS church teaches that Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and ordained him.

Ah. Well, then that does prove that we determine apostolic authority differently ;)

[LuvingLife]

God is always there, it's just a lot of the time we choose not to listen even when we "think" we are trying, our hearts are actually closed to His Word. I just recently realized this myself and have been studying my bible and praying to God to help me understnad Him and to try to live my life for Him. Now I feel as if God is my closest confident, I talk to Him and pray to Him all day long, and I know He is there with me no matter where I am. I didn't realize how I was shutting out God and not letting Him into my life, and now I know that He is there with me every step of the way.

 

Definitely study the bible more, and don't be afraid to ask questions, it is the only way you will find the answer.:)

[simka2]

As far as choosing a church. I mentioned in a couple responses to pms that I want to come out of church feeling as though I've done something for God, not that I've just come out of a self help seminar.

 

This jumped out to me and reminded me of something I dh told me when we first started anttending an EO church. It was common for me to turn to him after the service and say, "What did you think of the sermon?" This was a pretty loaded question. I was asking him what he thought theologically, presentation wise, and what he personally took from it.

 

So, one day after are 3rd or 4th EO service I asked the question. His response was, "I know longer feel the need to answer that question. Honestly, what I take from being in Divine Liturgy has little to do with the Priest's homily. I know now that I can just walk in and BE." See, in EO you walk in and you are a part of worship going on to God, you just participate or soak in what the Priests are already doing. (Please forgive me if my next statement offends any of our Jewish posters) The structure is meant to be very similar to Jewish temple worship. Meaning the worship is happening, the prayers are being said, you just walk in and are a part.

 

I am probably doing a horrible job explaining this, but I thought I would give it a try. :D

 

(Yes I am aware that worship should not be dependent on any Pastor's sermon, but this is just different. Not entirely sure how to explain, it is just different.) I think the point is there could be no homily (sermon) and you still would have had worship and teaching.

[simka2]

This jumped out to me and reminded me of something I dh told me when we first started anttending an EO church. It was common for me to turn to him after the service and say, "What did you think of the sermon?" This was a pretty loaded question. I was asking him what he thought theologically, presentation wise, and what he personally took from it.

 

So, one day after are 3rd or 4th EO service I asked the question. His response was, "I know longer feel the need to answer that question. Honestly, what I take from being in Divine Liturgy has little to do with the Priest's homily. I know now that I can just walk in and BE." See, in EO you walk in and you are a part of worship going on to God, you just participate or soak in what the Priests are already doing. (Please forgive me if my next statement offends any of our Jewish posters) The structure is meant to be very similar to Jewish temple worship. Meaning the worship is happening, the prayers are being said, you just walk in and are a part.

 

I am probably doing a horrible job explaining this, but I thought I would give it a try. :D

 

(Yes I am aware that worship should not be dependent on any Pastor's sermon, but this is just different. Not entirely sure how to explain, it is just different.) I think the point is there could be no homily (sermon) and you still would have had worship and teaching.

 

Here is the video I meant to link with the above post! Here is a beautiful video showing what it can be like! Many of the US churches are not quite this ornate, but it is stunning!

[ma23peas]

I feel like I'm babbling. I don't even know what I'm asking here. I just know that I'm hurting in my heart and I need someone to tell me that they get it. PM me if you feel more inclined to share in private but don't worry that posting anything here will offend or upset me. I've pretty much just shared with all of you the most private thing I could ever share...I'm an open book at this point. Okay, hitting submit with my heart in my mouth.

 

I have always found that when God sees us searching, He provides all we need. Trust in Him to lead you...I have also found that the devil wants nothing more than to confuse us/mislead us/have us question our closeness to God...in the Bible it says that he can not intervene when God is with us...there was an old song that said "Get thee back behind me Satan, you can not prevail, because Jesus never fails." I find myself singing that verse along with a little prayer when I feel that my confidence is lacking or my doubts are getting the better of me.

 

When I had doubts about homeschooling (first week I was considering it 11 years ago!) I had not met a single homeschooler in the city we were in! That week I prayed for God to remove my doubts and make it clear, He brought over 25 families into my path THAT week! It was like getting slapped in the face, alright already! I get it!! He'll do the same, sit and specifically pray your concerns...let Him bring you the answers.

[justamouse]

This jumped out to me and reminded me of something I dh told me when we first started anttending an EO church. It was common for me to turn to him after the service and say, "What did you think of the sermon?" This was a pretty loaded question. I was asking him what he thought theologically, presentation wise, and what he personally took from it.

 

So, one day after are 3rd or 4th EO service I asked the question. His response was, "I know longer feel the need to answer that question. Honestly, what I take from being in Divine Liturgy has little to do with the Priest's homily. I know now that I can just walk in and BE." See, in EO you walk in and you are a part of worship going on to God, you just participate or soak in what the Priests are already doing. (Please forgive me if my next statement offends any of our Jewish posters) The structure is meant to be very similar to Jewish temple worship. Meaning the worship is happening, the prayers are being said, you just walk in and are a part.

 

I am probably doing a horrible job explaining this, but I thought I would give it a try. :D

 

(Yes I am aware that worship should not be dependent on any Pastor's sermon, but this is just different. Not entirely sure how to explain, it is just different.) I think the point is there could be no homily (sermon) and you still would have had worship and teaching.

 

No, I totally understand what you're trying to say-or maybe I understand easier because I've experienced it. It doesn't matter about the homily because the homily is not the forefront of why we go to church anymore. In the RCC and EO churches, the Eucharist is the superstar-meaning Christ is the superstar-not how good the homily was. The focus shifts.

Edited December 22, 2011 by justamouse

[Teachin'Mine]

Cathedral = large church with a bishop :)

 

What is different about the Catholic churches, from some others, is the true presence of Jesus in the tabernacle in the form of the Consecrated Host. Most cathedrals are open during the day for anyone to visit. :)

Edited December 22, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[5LittleMonkeys]

I had not met a single homeschooler in the city we were in! That week I prayed for God to remove my doubts and make it clear, He brought over 25 families into my path THAT week! It was like getting slapped in the face, alright already! I get it!! He'll do the same, sit and specifically pray your concerns...let Him bring you the answers.

 

Oh wow! I was just coming to this thread to post some things I've been realizing and it is exactly what you've just shared.

 

I've been reading and re-reading everyone's posts and all of the pms. I've been thinking and praying. I realized, just this morning actually, that I am straining so hard to hear Him and to feel Him that I'm missing the obvious. You all have been so amazing and the amount of caring and compassion that I have felt from perfect strangers is overwhelming. You all are His voice. I'm still a long way away from where I want to be with God and my faith but you all have helped open my heart and ease my mind enough that I can continue my journey without guilt or fear and I can actually enjoy the journey. I don't want my work to be closer to God and find my place to be wrought with frustration and impatience. Maybe it isn't about where I will end up and is more about how I will grow and learn on the way.

 

Something else this has taught me that I would have argued with anyone about just a week ago. Fellowship is important, at least for me. This thread, even though it has many different points of view represented, has been so therapeutic. I can only imagine what it will be like when I find a place where most ;) have the same mind set that I do.

 

You all have given me a really great Christmas gift this year! Thank you.:grouphug:

[Xuzi]

Good luck in your journey! :grouphug:

[MamaSheep]

...For the sake of clarity, I don't tend to use the phrase "one holy catholic and apostolic church", as it has a lot of baggage and people make assumptions when they hear it. But in its literal sense it's something I very much believe in. I believe there is only one church--God is not divided and neither is His church. Agreed. I believe that it is holy, as its source is God, not man. Agreed. I believe it is catholic in the sense that it is universal for all mankind. And I believe true apostolic authority is vital. Agreed.

At least there are some things upon which we can agree. :)

For me, though, authenticity is more important than historicity. For us, historicity PROVES authenticity.

Oh sure, I understand that. This is one area where you and I will have to agree to disagree, I think. For me, historicity in and of itself does not constitute "proof" of authenticity, merely evidence of age. If a historic connection to God is the sole, or even primary proof of current authenticity, then we have to look at Judaism. The God of Judaism is legitimately the same God as that of Christianity (at least I believe this to be the case, others may disagree), and is the God with whom I seek communion. But the Jewish religion has been around even longer than the Orthodox Christian line, and the Jews can trace their priestly authority back to Aaron and Moses and through them to God, certainly predating the authority given to the apostles. So if more ancient means more authentic, I guess the Jewish connection would have to be considered more authentic in the modern world than the Orthodox Christian connection, being several centuries older. I am convinced, though, that Judaism has gone astray in some ways, and missed some important things, and although I respect and admire the Jews tremendously for their faith and perseverance over the centuries, I do not believe that Judaism is where I will find an extant communion with God or leaders who are presently authorized by God to teach and administer to His people. Regardless of what they may have been or had in the past, the mere fact of their historicity is not enough to convince me that they currently have a genuine connection to God, or authority from God to act in His name. An error does not become truth merely by existing for a long time. History is important, but for ME (and I understand others will believe differently, that's fine) "older" does not necessarily mean "better".

 

For ME, a genuine connection with God, and unadulterated apostolic authority given by God to man are more important than a connection to historic councils. The latter is part of the former. They are not separate items. The councils merely dealt with heresies and writing down that which was already believed and practiced from the beginning. Also, the EO is unadulterated. It has not changed in the 2000+ years of it's existence. It did not split from another. It did not make a separate appearance hundreds or thousands of years after the Church formed. It IS the Church.

 

I understand and respect that this is what you believe. Again, I think we will have to agree to disagree. Roman Catholics claim (if I understand correctly) that the Orthodox were the ones to split from them, and that the RC tradition represents the authentic church passed down through the centuries, and I respect their beliefs as well, but don't agree with them either. ;) It is my considered opinion that the councils made errors in dealing with heresies and writing down (and interpreting) that which was already believed and practiced from the beginning, and that these errors have been perpetuated and built upon over the centuries. I see what I consider to be significant differences between EO and what I read about in the New Testament and other historic Christian writings. I don't want to get into specifics because I am sure we would never agree, and it is not my desire here to tear down anyone else's faith. Further, I believe for various reasons that the Orthodox clergy no longer possesses the authority given to the apostles, even if they do still go through the motions of passing it on. I do not believe a person can pass on authority he does not first possess. This is probably a whole other convoluted discussion not to get into in this format, but it has to do with whether such authority can be lost due to things like heresy, apostasy, excommunication, etc., who has the authority to excommunicate whom, who has the authority to choose who will be ordained, and so on. The upshot is, that I, personally do not believe that the authority of the original apostles was passed down through the ages, and I do not believe that either the Roman tradition or the Eastern one can legitimately claim it. Again, I am quite certain that you and others would disagree, and that neither of us will change the other's mind. I am convinced, though, that Orthodoxy has gone astray in some ways, and missed some important things, and although I respect and admire members of the EO church tremendously for their faith and perseverance over the centuries, I do not believe that Orthodoxy is where I will find an extant communion with God or leaders who are presently authorized by God to teach and administer to His people. Regardless of what they may have been or had in the past, the mere fact of their historicity is not enough to convince me that they currently have a genuine connection to God, or authority from God to act in His name. An error does not become truth merely by existing for a long time.

 

I also do not believe that human beings are smart enough to just "figure out" how to fix the errors in doctrine and practice that worked their way into the historic churches, and I really do not believe that lost authority from God can be reconstructed or re-established through any act of man. I believe that a clarification of true teachings would require revelation from God, and that only God could restore authority from God. This would mean to me, that a more recent, restorative act of God would take precedence in determining authenticity over historicity--assuming, of course, that such a restorative act of God was genuine. My opinion is that God did genuinely do just that. Again, I understand that many will disagree with me, I'm only stating my personal opinion.

 

(As a point of information, in our church bearers of the priesthood can trace their priesthood back, ordination by ordination, to Jesus Christ through the apostles Peter, James, and John.) I would like to see proof of this. The LDS started with Joseph Smith. Please prove to me that he has apostolic succession, other than the claims that he makes on the visits from Moroni. Do I believe God's church is perfect? Of course not. Anything that imperfect mankind is involved in will be imperfect. But I believe that God is drawing it toward perfection.

...

 

As a previous poster explained, Moroni is not the only heavenly messenger whom we believe to have visited Joseph Smith, nor do we believe Joseph Smith to have been the only one to see them. For example, when John the Baptist appeared to confer the priesthood of Aaron, he gave it to both Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. Both men were also ordained to the greater priesthood that Jesus gave to the original apostles by the resurrected apostles Peter, James, and John. Later, both men were visited by Moses, Elias, and Elijah.

 

But yes, it is through this ordination by the apostles Peter, James, and John that we trace our apostolic succession, not the historic lines used by the EO (the authenticity of which I can't accept anyway, regardless of the claims made regarding it). As for apostolic authority, for us it's a current, and vital thing, not just something in the past to which we retain a historic thread of connection. The beliefs and practices of the original Christian church included ongoing revelation, and the leadership of living apostles. These are things that have not been perpetuated by the Orthodox tradition, but which I think were vital in the original church. It was built on a foundation of apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone--a foundation is not ripped out when the walls of a structure are completed, that would make the walls fall down.

 

I think we mean more or less the same thing when we use the term "apostolic succession"--that Jesus directly ordained the apostles, who passed that authority to others through ordination, and that they passed it on by ordaining others, and so forth, on down to the currently ordained clergy, such that clergy members can trace their authority down the ordinations through generations until they reach the original apostles, and Jesus Christ Himself. But we definitely differ as to how the line is traced (what good would it be for us to be connected up to a historic line that had lost any real authority anyway?). And I think we also would disagree as to specifics like who is authorized to ordain whom to which priesthood office, and whether or not or how authority may be lost. But those details are not the primary issue, the primary issue is the question of whether apostolic authority was maintained without interruption on the one hand, or severed and then restored on the other. And I seriously doubt either of us would ever convince the other, so there's really no point in arguing over it...lol.

 

(I'll address the other bit in a separate post shortly. :) )

Edited December 22, 2011 by MamaSheep

[MamaSheep]

(Ok. Continuing. Sorry for the delay, life happened there for a minute, I'm sure you understand. :) )

 

As for proof, can I provide you irrefutable proof that the apostles Peter, James, and John actually visited Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery and gave them apostolic authority? Nope. Neither can I provide irrefutable proof that Jesus rose from the dead, or indeed that He was the Son of God, or that the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary. I can't "prove" that Paul saw a vision on the road to Damascus. I can't "prove" that Moses spoke with God through a burning bush, parted the Red Sea, or received the ten commandments (and the Law of Moses) from God. I can't "prove" that Noah ever existed. I believe all these things happened, but I can't "prove" it. I could show you a written record of all these things, but I can't "prove" that the people who wrote them were telling the truth. For me, the mere age of such a record doesn't "prove" its authenticity. If that were the case, I guess I'd have to go back to ancient Sumerian records and go with whatever they said.

 

And you can't "prove" to me, either, that the EO line of supposed apostolic succession is valid either. You could show me documentation that demonstrates that they THINK it is, but that's not "proof" that they're right.

 

So no, I can't give you "proof". However, God can. He's convinced me, and a lot of other people. But "proof" is between you and him, really, IMO. You've said that for you proof of authenticity comes from historicity. For me, historicity is interesting, but proof of the authenticity of spiritual things can only come from God. And it's more important to me that a church's teachings and authority be authentically from God than it is that they be old.

Since we're tossing our pennies in ;) I know we will never agree, but I think it needs to be made clear that we also use terms entirely differently. Ex. the way your church determines apostolic succession is different than the way Orthodoxy and Catholicism determine apostolic succession. The Reformed hold closer to the EO and RC on this matter as well.

Yes, the Reformed and RC definitely trace their apostolic succession down a line more similar to that of the EO (though diverging at various junctions) than that of the LDS. But I still think we mean more or less the same thing by the actual term "apostolic succession"--clergy who are legitimate, authoritative successors of the original apostles. But for what it's worth, popularity is no more "proof" of authenticity to me than is historicity. Not only does an error not become truth by virtue of age, it also does not become truth by majority vote. No matter how many people believe an error, it's still wrong.

 

If historicity proves authenticity to you, that's fine, that's between you and God. I agree that your pennies and my pennies are never going to line up. And I totally agree with you that there are very significant differences between the LDS church and the EO church. I certainly wasn't trying to say otherwise (though frankly I find the similarities as intriguing as the differences). I was only expressing my opinion as different from yours regarding the importance of historicity, as someonee who believes in one church, originating from God (holy), universal (catholic), with apostolic authority, as you invited.

 

And I'm glad we can discuss these things politely and go away friends afterward, even though we will never agree with one another on so many important points. :)

Edited December 22, 2011 by MamaSheep

[Teachin'Mine]

Oh wow! I was just coming to this thread to post some things I've been realizing and it is exactly what you've just shared.

 

I've been reading and re-reading everyone's posts and all of the pms. I've been thinking and praying. I realized, just this morning actually, that I am straining so hard to hear Him and to feel Him that I'm missing the obvious. You all have been so amazing and the amount of caring and compassion that I have felt from perfect strangers is overwhelming. You all are His voice. I'm still a long way away from where I want to be with God and my faith but you all have helped open my heart and ease my mind enough that I can continue my journey without guilt or fear and I can actually enjoy the journey. I don't want my work to be closer to God and find my place to be wrought with frustration and impatience. Maybe it isn't about where I will end up and is more about how I will grow and learn on the way.

 

Something else this has taught me that I would have argued with anyone about just a week ago. Fellowship is important, at least for me. This thread, even though it has many different points of view represented, has been so therapeutic. I can only imagine what it will be like when I find a place where most ;) have the same mind set that I do.

 

You all have given me a really great Christmas gift this year! Thank you.:grouphug:

 

 

Merry Christmas!!!! :grouphug:

[MamaSheep]

Oh wow! I was just coming to this thread to post some things I've been realizing and it is exactly what you've just shared.

 

I've been reading and re-reading everyone's posts and all of the pms. I've been thinking and praying. I realized, just this morning actually, that I am straining so hard to hear Him and to feel Him that I'm missing the obvious. You all have been so amazing and the amount of caring and compassion that I have felt from perfect strangers is overwhelming. You all are His voice. I'm still a long way away from where I want to be with God and my faith but you all have helped open my heart and ease my mind enough that I can continue my journey without guilt or fear and I can actually enjoy the journey. I don't want my work to be closer to God and find my place to be wrought with frustration and impatience. Maybe it isn't about where I will end up and is more about how I will grow and learn on the way.

 

Something else this has taught me that I would have argued with anyone about just a week ago. Fellowship is important, at least for me. This thread, even though it has many different points of view represented, has been so therapeutic. I can only imagine what it will be like when I find a place where most ;) have the same mind set that I do.

 

You all have given me a really great Christmas gift this year! Thank you.:grouphug:

 

Sounds like you're off to a good start. I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

And merry Christmas!:grouphug:

[Lovedtodeath]

I agree. Read the Bible and listen to God Himself first rather than denominational advertisements and recommendations.

:iagree:

 

I was saved when I realized that my full trust was in Jesus Christ. Not Jesus and... but Him alone.

 

I don't judge those who approach things differently than me, but I think we can generally tell who has the Spirit and who doesn't, thus those of many denominations and approaches are my brothers and sisters.

 

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

 

Sending you a PM...

[Lovedtodeath]

I struggle though in how to learn about God and grow in my faith if I can't handle religion?

 

Maybe it's just that I haven't found the right religion? And by religion I guess I mean more denomination since I firmly believe in Christianity. I've never attended church regularly but those times that I have I always left with a bad taste in my mouth either due to what a specific denomination believed or because the people of the church were such a huge disappointment to me.

 

I haven't tried them all but because of my experiences from my youth and from talking to those of certain denominations I just have gotten this wrong opinion that none of them are going to fit with what I'm looking for.

 

I feel like I'm babbling. I don't even know what I'm asking here. I just know that I'm hurting in my heart and I need someone to tell me that they get it. PM me if you feel more inclined to share in private but don't worry that posting anything here will offend or upset me. I've pretty much just shared with all of you the most private thing I could ever share...I'm an open book at this point. Okay, hitting submit with my heart in my mouth.

 

One thing that I have found is that people have told me what other denominations believe and they were not correct. In addition, going to a few services will not tell you either... because they usually don't go into much detail there. For example, they will say, "when I die I know I am going to heaven." This does not mean, however, that their eternal hope does not involve the earth, but it took me a long time to actually discover what they really meant.

 

I think that once we have God's Spirit we can generally tell who has the Spirit and who doesn't, (1 John chapters 2-4) thus those of many denominations and approaches are my brothers and sisters.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.