Would this be considered racist?

[Kathleen in VA]

I was in a thrift/antique store a while ago and got to chatting with one of the sales clerks who was also a reupholsterer while a friend purchased a loveseat and made arrangements to pick it up. I was with ds15, dd12 and dd19 at the time.

 

The clerk, who happened to be a black man, and I hit it off as small talk goes. We got to laughing and kidding about how something on a nearby shelf (can't remember what it was now) was once owned by George Washington and then we got to talking about Mt. Vernon. It was just one of those delightful encounters you sometimes have with perfect strangers when you have to stand around and wait with nothing better to do.:)

 

Later that day as we continued driving around (we were going to a bunch of yard sales) I said something to Ds15 about the conversation I had had with the clerk and ds couldn't remember who I was talking about. At first, I wanted to just say, "You know, the black man," since he was the only black man in the entire store, but for some reason I felt I should make an effort to describe him without referring to his skin color. I talked about the joking and the fact that he mentioned he was a reupholsterer and that he was standing behind the counter while we waited for our friend to complete her transaction, but ds just couldn't remember, so I ended up saying what first occurred to me to say.

 

I've been wondering ever since if it is considered racist to describe someone in terms of their skin color - especially since it would have the easier thing to do and settled the matter quickly. Or am I just going over the top about trying not to offend people? Of course, I couldn't have offended the man in question - he wasn't there. But I was trying to subtly teach my son that describing people in other ways is preferable to resorting to their skin color first thing. I'm not sure why I felt that was something worth doing either. It just felt wrong to bring it up first without trying to describe him in other ways first.

 

Ok, be gentle - I'm really trying to do the right thing here. But I've wondered about this for quite a long time and have finally worked up the nerve to ask.

[Alte Veste Academy]

No, it's not racist. It feels uncomfortable because of the issues we have had, historically and even today, that relate back to differences in skin color. But it is not inherently racist. It's the same thing as referring to a blonde woman, or the really tall guy, etc., etc., etc.

[stripe]

I don't like to do it, myself.

 

Unfortunately, or amusingly, my husband (who is of another ethnicity and is an immigrant) regularly does it!

 

I don't think it's racist, more maybe lazy or tacky.

[NicAnn]

I never think so, no. I mean, if the guy had bright red hair, you would have said "You know, the red head". Or if he had a deep voice, you might have said "the dude with the deep voice". My favorite college basketball team only has one white guy that plays regularly. When I talk to my grandma I always refer to him as the white guy because I can't remember his name. There's no other way to describe him.

 

Racism isn't pointing out race, or acknowledging that people are different in skin tones or race.

 

Now, I think overall describing people for other things than physical appearance is better...but honestly that's not how most minds work. Physical characteristics are the first thing you notice, and in a short encounter they stay with you more than other attributes.

[hana]

I'm pretty sensitive to these issues, and I'd say you were fine either way. If it was his race that would make him identifiable to the person you were talking about, it's fine to say "The Black man I was talking to when ...."

 

It wouldn't actually be racist, but it could lead one to wonder if you were racist, if later when talking about this to someone, you said, "So I was talking to this Black man about ...." if his race wasn't relevant to the conversation (either the original or the current conversation).

[Parrothead]

No, I don't consider it racist to describe someone by their skin color or if there is a obvious difference in ethnicity. I'm pretty sure non-Caucasian people will say, "I was talking to that white lady," or "I spoke to that Scandanavian guy," or possibly "that ginger chick said..."

[NanceXToo]

I'm not sure if some people would consider it racist. I do use it as a description sometimes if it was a stand out thing about them that would make it easy to recall them, just like I might use other physical cues, like "that really tall guy," or "the old lady," or "the girl with the red hair," or whatever. If none of his other features came to mind bringing recall but that did and you obviously mean it as a description and not a slur, do I consider that racist? No. Might somebody else? I'm not sure.

[Julie Smith]

No, I don't consider it racist to describe someone by their skin color or if there is a obvious difference in ethnicity. I'm pretty sure non-Caucasian people will say, "I was talking to that white lady," or "I spoke to that Scandanavian guy," or possibly "that ginger chick said..."

 

I agree.

[annandatje]

You did not discriminate against the man based upon his race, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation. You did not form an opinion about his character based upon visible physical traits. What exactly do you believe racism is?

 

I am asking because I was in same situation several years ago. The above questions were what went through my mind in the second that I decided to use the person's skin color as an identifying factor in the conversation with my child.

Edited December 15, 2011 by annandatje

[Farrar]

No. I see why it feels racist, but I don't think it's any more discriminatory than "that short guy" or "that guy with glasses" or "that blond lady."

[PeacefulChaos]

No, it's not racist. It feels uncomfortable because of the issues we have had, historically and even today, that relate back to differences in skin color. But it is not inherently racist. It's the same thing as referring to a blonde woman, or the really tall guy, etc., etc., etc.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[ktgrok]

I'm pretty sensitive to these issues, and I'd say you were fine either way. If it was his race that would make him identifiable to the person you were talking about, it's fine to say "The Black man I was talking to when ...."

 

It wouldn't actually be racist, but it could lead one to wonder if you were racist, if later when talking about this to someone, you said, "So I was talking to this Black man about ...." if his race wasn't relevant to the conversation (either the original or the current conversation).

 

Thank you for clarifying. This helps me a lot actually.

[Pretty in Pink]

No, I don't consider that racist. It's no different, IMO, than referring to hair color, height, age, or build.

[elfgivas]

i do a little litmus test.....

if he'd been hispanic, would i have said "the hispanic guy"

if he'd been caucasian would i have said "the white guy"

if he'd been japanese, would i have said "the japanese guy"?

 

if so, then maybe not...

 

if not, then maybe so...

 

i think that how we describe someone says something about what we notice, and i'd rather have my kids noticing the sense of humor, the interesting occupation, etc....

 

fwiw,

ann

[Renai]

I don't consider it racist. If I were one of the few white persons among black persons in an area it would just be a defining feature, not necessarily a negative. Unless there is something wrong with having dark skin why would it be insulting to point it out? KWIM?

 

I agree.

 

There are so few blacks in my area, when I need to meet up with someone in a public place, the most succinct description I can give is "I"ll be the short, black woman next to the blue car."

 

Works every time. :D

[Teachin'Mine]

I agree - what you did was just fine. It's so encouraging to know that there's someone in your state who even cares and is trying to raise her children the right way. :)

[Kathleen in VA]

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate your input.:)

[regentrude]

No, it is not racist.

If his skin color is an obvious distinguishing feature, it's fine in this context.

 

Racist is to make inferences about a person based on his skin color.

 

If the guy would have been in a wheelchair, you might have said "the guy in the wheelchair" - that's not discriminating against the disabled.

Or if the guy would have been the only man among women, refering to him as "the male" would not be sexist.

[SKL]

I've been there too. Thing is, once I get the other person to realize whom I'm talking about, the person I'm talking to will say, "oh, you mean the black guy?" So I'm not sure it does any good.

 

I've heard AA people refer to "that white lady." So I'm thinking it's something we do for convenience and is not racist.

 

Where it crosses the line is where your mentioning the skin color tends to make the race appear relevant. A lady was scared once by an AA man who she felt was lurking in her driveway. She got online and mentioned "an AA man ___" and was roundly criticized for pointing out the man's race. In that case, people understood her to have felt his race made him more dangerous.

 

Interestingly, my daughters (who are about 5) will sometimes ask me of someone they have not seen, "does he have brown skin?" Once we went through a drive-through and at the pick-up window they said, "oh, didn't know the lady had brown skin." My daughters also have brown skin, as do many of our close friends. I don't see anything wrong with mentioning this, any more than hair color or what someone is wearing. I don't do it, but I won't criticize my kids for it in that context.

[beaners]

I agree - what you did was just fine. It's so encouraging to know that there's someone in your state who even cares and is trying to raise her children the right way. :)

 

Huh. What is normally wrong with people from her state? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

 

When I lived in Memphis, I was one of the two "white girls" who worked at a restaurant. Our hair color and length was similar, and we had a similar build. Everyone always confused us because it was hard to come up with a distinct physical description. We always laughed about it.

[kiana]

Where it crosses the line is where your mentioning the skin color tends to make the race appear relevant. A lady was scared once by an AA man who she felt was lurking in her driveway. She got online and mentioned "an AA man ___" and was roundly criticized for pointing out the man's race. In that case, people understood her to have felt his race made him more dangerous.

 

Yes, this.

 

There's a huge difference between using skin color as a descriptor and using a physical descriptor to imply something about someone.

[laundrycrisis]

I don't think it's racist to describe someone by their race or ethnic appearance, because those are not things I see as negative in any way. However....I do try not to go first to any aspect of physical characteristics when I am explaining who someone is. If possible I try first to refer to the situation or some other way of explaining who the person is. So many ways we can describe someone's physical existence can be something people are sensitive to, even when it's not meant in a bad way. In college a professor told me a recruiter had been trying to find out who I was, and referred to me as "the short loud one with the glasses". :lol::001_huh: Okay, all true, but not the most flattering description ! I also have relatives who tend to go straight to describing people physically. They don't mean anything bad by it, but it can come across as having sort of a preoccupation with people's appearances and mannerisms. Some of the descriptions are a bit over the top. As an adult I've come to cringe when I hear it....so I do my best to avoid it. It's maybe a great skill for a writer to use in developing a fiction character, but not always the kindest way to describe people. If I do have to resort to describing something about their physical person, I do my best to make sure it is something positive, and avoid saying anything I think the other person might not take as a compliment if he or she was there to hear it.

Edited December 15, 2011 by laundrycrisis

[kiana]

I don't think it's racist to describe someone by their race or ethnic appearance, because those are not things I see as negative in any way. However....I do try not to go first to any aspect of physical characteristics when I am explaining who someone is. If possible I try first to refer to the situation or some other way of explaining who the person is. So many ways we can describe someone's physical existence can be something people are sensitive to, even when it's not meant in a bad way. In college a professor told me a recruiter had been trying to find out who I was, and referred to me as "the short loud one with the glasses". :lol::001_huh: Okay, all true, but not the most flattering description ! I also have relatives who tend to go straight to describing people physically

 

Yes -- I'd also add that imo it'd be different if I were describing someone I would like my friend to meet instead of someone we had both seen but had no real further acquaintance with.

 

IOW, if I were saying to my friend Jenny "You really ought to meet my friend Nancy" I would then follow up with Nancy's personal characteristics that made me think she and Jenny would get along, and race isn't one of those.

[Big Buckin' Longhorn]

My son and I are the ONLY black people in our Homeschool Circle. Very regularly when the young people are splashing around in the pool, or playing air hockey, or throwing around a Frisbee, or whatever . . . someone will ask "Which one is yours?"

 

I always give them a very matter-of-fact look and say "The black one." :D

 

I'm usually met with a stammer, a blush, and a mumbled, "oh, of course."

 

I'm actually not trying to embarrass anyone. What I'm really trying to get across is that I am black; I am aware that I am black; and it's all right if you notice that I'm black, just don't consider me inferior for it.

 

It really is OK. I'm sure that man knows he's black. :lol:

[dragons in the flower bed]

I have had that impulse too. I admit that I sometimes get a perverse pleasure out of seeing someone horrified that they had only registered a person under that one characteristic after I finally say, "the black one."

 

But avoiding talking about race isn't helpful in general. I wouldn't want to pass on to my kids the idea that race shouldn't be matter-of-factly stated. We want the fact that someone is black to be a fact without political charge, but if we're hiding it intentionally, there's just as much political charge in it.

[akmommy]

Yes, this.

 

There's a huge difference between using skin color as a descriptor and using a physical descriptor to imply something about someone.

 

:iagree:

[dragons in the flower bed]

My son and I are the ONLY black people in our Homeschool Circle. Very regularly when the young people are splashing around in the pool, or playing air hockey, or throwing around a Frisbee, or whatever . . . someone will ask "Which one is yours?"

 

I always give them a very matter-of-fact look and say "The black one."

 

:lol:

[kiana]

My son and I are the ONLY black people in our Homeschool Circle. Very regularly when the young people are splashing around in the pool, or playing air hockey, or throwing around a Frisbee, or whatever . . . someone will ask "Which one is yours?"

 

I always give them a very matter-of-fact look and say "The black one." :D

 

Okay, that's funny :D

 

I could understand that though. It's a common small talk gambit ... it's just coming out of their mouths without thinking. I could see myself saying that ... and then saying "Oh, yeah. Duh."

[laundrycrisis]

My son and I are the ONLY black people in our Homeschool Circle. Very regularly when the young people are splashing around in the pool, or playing air hockey, or throwing around a Frisbee, or whatever . . . someone will ask "Which one is yours?"

 

I always give them a very matter-of-fact look and say "The black one."

 

In the group we are in, that wouldn't be a conclusion anyone could come to, because we have several mixed race families, both bio and adoptive. We really can't visually match up kids to the parents by looking at everyone's race.

[Renai]

In the group we are in, that wouldn't be a conclusion anyone could come to, because we have several mixed race families, both bio and adoptive. We really can't visually match up kids to the parents by looking at everyone's race.

 

It wouldn't work here either. I'm the only black woman in the three groups I'm in as well. But I'm dark, my children are very light, and none of the dark children are mine. :D I so love being outside the box. :tongue_smilie:

[melissel]

In the group we are in, that wouldn't be a conclusion anyone could come to, because we have several mixed race families, both bio and adoptive. We really can't visually match up kids to the parents by looking at everyone's race.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Unless you looked carefully at their faces, you wouldn't automatically connect my DDs with my DH--he is very definitely not caucasian, and the girls look like they are.

[TravelingChris]

I don't think you did anything racist since that was the easiest way to describe who he was as compared to the other people in the shop.

 

On a different tangent, we watch a number of Japanese movies from Netflix. Sometimes there is some characteristic we could say to distinguish the characters like someone might have wavy hair. But usually there are a number of characters with dark, straight hair, and about half wear glasses. I am wondering how Japanese distinguish between people in their own country.

[Kathleen in VA]

I don't think you did anything racist since that was the easiest way to describe who he was as compared to the other people in the shop.

 

On a different tangent, we watch a number of Japanese movies from Netflix. Sometimes there is some characteristic we could say to distinguish the characters like someone might have wavy hair. But usually there are a number of characters with dark, straight hair, and about half wear glasses. I am wondering how Japanese distinguish between people in their own country.

 

I think it is pretty common for people of one race to think that of other races. They probably wonder how we can distinguish between all the white skinned, brown haired people here, lol. I think it is because when you aren't surrounded by people of another race on a regular basis they do all seem to look alike - and you don't really need to differentiate between them.

 

When I lived in Hawaii I found it difficult at first to see the differences between the Asian races there, but after a few months or a year I could definitely distinguish between Filipino, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese and local Hawaiian people. I think it comes with being closely acquainted with them that allows you to see obvious differences that at first seemed blurred.

[kiana]

I don't think you did anything racist since that was the easiest way to describe who he was as compared to the other people in the shop.

 

On a different tangent, we watch a number of Japanese movies from Netflix. Sometimes there is some characteristic we could say to distinguish the characters like someone might have wavy hair. But usually there are a number of characters with dark, straight hair, and about half wear glasses. I am wondering how Japanese distinguish between people in their own country.

 

The fat one, the skinny one, the one with the birthmark, the one with the crooked nose, the one with the slightly lighter skin, the one with the unusual eyes, the one missing a tooth, the one with the rounder face, ...

 

It's much harder to see differences in races other than your own without practice. After spending quite a bit of time teaching minority students from urban areas I'm quite good at immediately telling differences and it always shocks them. :P

[TravelingChris]

I know they don't all look alike and having grown up in an area with a considerable amount of Asians and recently living in such an area, I do know how to distinguish between at least some of the Asian nationalities. But my question is if they are all the same nationality, like all Japanese, what decriptive adjectives do the Japanese use to distinguish people? I just have no idea what characteristics they focus on since the ones European ancestry people use- hair color, eye color, skin color, are of no use in distinguishing them. They must use something different but I don't know what it is.

[Ellie]

Well, if you needed a physical description, what else would you say? If it was someone with red hair, would you have mentioned hair color? Or someone with glasses? Or very tall or very short?

 

If you had just been telling the story later, not trying to help someone who had been with you remember who it was you were talking to because you had talked to several people that day, his color would have been irrelevant and so it might have been racist to mention it. Under the circumstances you describe, I don't think it was racist.

[In2why]

You were in a discussion where you needed to describe him, of course you would use his skin color, nothing wrong with that. If there were more than one black man there you might even need to say the black man with light skin, or the other way around, still not a problem in the least.

[In2why]

My son and I are the ONLY black people in our Homeschool Circle. Very regularly when the young people are splashing around in the pool, or playing air hockey, or throwing around a Frisbee, or whatever . . . someone will ask "Which one is yours?"

 

I always give them a very matter-of-fact look and say "The black one." :D

 

I'm usually met with a stammer, a blush, and a mumbled, "oh, of course."

 

I'm actually not trying to embarrass anyone. What I'm really trying to get across is that I am black; I am aware that I am black; and it's all right if you notice that I'm black, just don't consider me inferior for it.

 

It really is OK. I'm sure that man knows he's black. :lol:

 

Exactly. I also come across some funny situations because I am white and my children for the most part, are not. I have a little blonde, green-eyed Irish boy, and a beautiful dark skinned man child, and quite a bit in between. I feel sorry for some of the people who ask which child is mine when we meet in social situations when I have to point one of them out because they trip over themselves to be politically correct, and I just want to say.....relax. (Of course then I sometimes get the question where did I get them from. I really want to respond there was a 2 for 1 special at Walmart, but that is my humor.)

[kiana]

Exactly. I also come across some funny situations because I am white and my children for the most part, are not. I have a little blonde, green-eyed Irish boy, and a beautiful dark skinned man child, and quite a bit in between. I feel sorry for some of the people who ask which child is mine when we meet in social situations when I have to point one of them out because they trip over themselves to be politically correct, and I just want to say.....relax. (Of course then I sometimes get the question where did I get them from. I really want to respond there was a 2 for 1 special at Walmart, but that is my humor.)

 

Calvin, YOU were a blue light special at K-mart!

[In2why]

Calvin, YOU were a blue light special at K-mart!

 

 

I confess (sigh) I had to google the reference, I am so out of touch.

[SKL]

I know they don't all look alike and having grown up in an area with a considerable amount of Asians and recently living in such an area, I do know how to distinguish between at least some of the Asian nationalities. But my question is if they are all the same nationality, like all Japanese, what decriptive adjectives do the Japanese use to distinguish people? I just have no idea what characteristics they focus on since the ones European ancestry people use- hair color, eye color, skin color, are of no use in distinguishing them. They must use something different but I don't know what it is.

 

I dated a Chinese guy. He said that until he met me (I had mentioned something about my blue eyes), he had never noted differences in eye color before. I think in his case he went more by the shape of the skull and build, which gives a clue as to what part of the country the individual originated from.

 

I used to work with many, many Japanese people. I could always tell them apart with no difficulty. They are actually quite diverse - just not in the same way that we are diverse here.

[gardenmom5]

I do not consider it racist - because when you are trying to trigger someone's memory of who you were talking to - espcially if you'd been talking to a number of people - you generally start with the feature that most sets them apart from everyone else. If you'd been in an area with many blacks, it wouldn't have been a helpful descriptor. It might be the "red head" or "in a wheelchair" etc. Or a beloved teacher of my daughters - the teacher with the port-wine-stain birthmark (covering half her face).

[Dustybug]

No, it isn't racist. My MIL does this all.the.time. though and it aggravates me because she will use it whether or not the skin color matters or not...i.e. "That little black girl was running around playing." "This black woman at the store today.." Maybe it wouldn't bother me so bad if she hadn't told me on the first Thanksgiving that DH and I were married that, "If I'd come along a few years before, she would NOT have approved." :glare: (I am biracial) I know she doesn't mean it, and I think it is sort of a regional thing here.